HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Herald, Volume II, Issue 330, 2 December 1864, Page 5

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 1.

f l '- Speaker took the chair at 12 o'clock

B ' V • PETITIONS tritt" tt'r' '^' iYLOR from settlers in the Manku disfarirV lil ! lt they had been driven from their consider it l ' lo I' oUie to fake their ease into tliai'lS*'. " N " KII ' 1 ' fr° ra Hugh Oolaban, stating tl^ earS - a ?° '' ie Government let some land in I'fAierf e'i purchased the interest and exother •i- ° n ' l ' 1,1 c ' onst;r| i<-'t:ng a mill-dam and Cram •!) t't a:u ' afterwards that the Government li-i-i. 1 ,- >e to '' le trustees of the ItOßpital, and l'"'.'liig t.jr redress.

The f li I '" , . l ' £Hs 11ID 0N " the table. ilai'ir a?i .°' VI "S P a pers were laid on the table by a J jr Atkinson :— Ifsy t of"? 1 , '°,? n 01 'der No. 3, of the 23th November, k- laid n. 1R ouse of Representatives. That there X u . 7 0 / the'able of the House a copy of a letter AitnJ 0 " 1 !•> -^ cs "' en t -Magistrate of Auckland to Tjie f, " nei ' a '> dated November 7, ISfiJ-. EftellmiA p u pers were laid on the table by his 1 Vr. 8 com . ma »d " ret Pp ( 't' ri g Mr. Catch pool's claim for coinapers reepeiting the maintenance of

respecting tlio continuance of transportation from Great Britain-to Western Australia. -P- . NOTICES OF MOTION. bo Cndr^n^hefpW 011 R ™'^ ABJOUIINMENT. Hou,e J, ;.':. Mr - W * TD , r ° E0 to suggcat that il.o »t 1° oVloniT US M S , IO V adjourn until Saturday so l^™n ? le , ! ' ?kcd thi3 »» >>e thought Dial by t i , f , R - sl'ouM net lose any time, and begged hononlnl >1) Pons.deration to himself and liis honourable colleague, as tliey were both overwhelmed nil, r r ( m '' ,lenr ') ITe wo "W move also that lapse ti\Tt'n°urday'.° U f °'' " houW Mr. BiKH.rn suggested that a great deal of formal Justness might be got through to-morrow without taxing the Ministers.

Mr. WVr.u replied that, the course proposed would involve tlio attendance of Ministers. It was only lair that, they should have twenty-four hours to do that, business out of doors, which was as. important as tlio business in the House. He thought it right to aslc it. (Hear, hear ) Mr Vookl suggested that, the adjourned debate should be placed earlier in the business paper. His Excellency liad referred in a despatch to the short sessions which took place, and the House ought to give attention to such an expression of opinion. Hu would ask the hon. member to state on Saturday the probable lenglh of fcho session and of the reoess." -Mr. W Kr.n said that if the lion, member had heard what had been said on a previous occasion he would not have asked these questions. If the debate could not he renewed on Saturday after the financial statement of his hon. friend it might be on Monday. Mr. Stavfoiii> supported tlio motion of tlie hon. Mr. Wold, and said thut business could not be expedited by an attempt to hurry it. on. The Colonial Treasurer had before him in hip financial statement as dillicult a task as had ever devolved upon any Minister. He thought the southern members should not come up for a few days and call it a session. If thev did so they would not be doing their duty to their constituents.

Mr. Joi.r.iE, in speaking on the adjournment, asked when the despatches would be laid 011 the table.

Mr. Hit.i.on Bicli, said there was a paramount dut-v which they all owed to their country, but at the same time there were private interests to be attended to, and if they cou'd not attend to botli they would hare to resign their seats. He objected to so many notices being placed 011 the paper, and proposed that such as did not relate to important public business should be swept from the paper. Mr. Mantki.l spoko a few words on the same subject.

3lr. Wei.d said in reply to Mr. Jollie's question, he would inform the hon. gentU'man the member for Tiniaru that lie had used every exertion to get the despatches printed. If the house was to defer the consideration until the voluminous documents were all in his possession, it. would be a lo««' session. But he would tell the hon. member what was practical to to be done, and that was to have the most important despatches in manuscript luid on the (able, and in tho meantime the printing was going on as fast as possible. Mr. .lollie : Does the hon. gentleman mean the Secretary of State's despatch. Mr. AVki.ii : Yes. To the motion " That this TTo'iee at its rising do adjourn until Saturday next at 12 o'clock," Mr. Cahletox moved «n amendment that these words be added: "and that select committees have leave to sit to-morrow.'' The motion as amended was carried. 1 he Si'kakku wished to inform the hon. gentleman that on the 2nd December last the House agreed to certain amendments in the standing orders. With regard to these standing orders he, with the Speaker of the Legislative Council, was taking steps to consider the standing orders on private bills, lie had end. avciured to draft out a new set of standing orders, and the half of them wer.' already in nianuser pt : but had not been able to complete the task which was committed to him, the session having been called at an earlier date than was expected, lint if the House continued to ho'iour him with the same commissi")', he hoped by the next session he would be able to lay the orders before the House. THE ESCAPED I'KISONEtIS. Mr. Crachokt W it.son, C.8., did not wish to embarrass the Government hv asking tho questions standing in his name. The extraordinary things which had taken place tendered estraoidinar> measmes necessary, and although he might see smiles on the laces of his friends, he would tusk them what had occuri.d since last session, and which guaranteed his question. He well remembered a discussion which occurred in that House as to whether it was safe to send the Maori prisoners to Chatham Islands. That idea was scouted, for it was considered that sma'l schooners would bring them back very quickly, and their presence would be very detrimental here. But they had been sent to an island which was nearer than Chatham Islands, and from which escape was more easy still. It was well known what the leeling with which these circumstances were looked upon in tho I'rovincc ho came from. He would pa-s over this, the past could not bo recalled, but they might yet do something in the future. It was with soir.e difficulty he found out the dato even when the departure from that island took place. He believed it was the Oth September. A man-of-war was sent to the spot, but he could not ascertain whether anv step.-: had been taken to efleet their le-cap-tuie. Ho had had something to do with runaway prisoners. Ho was once in a position where 900 prisoners were allowed to be let loose by mutinous soldiers ; but c ilain mc-n, whose lives were at stake, took prompt measures, and arrested 150 within four hours, but r.o attempt, was made to catch these runawav men. If anything were done, ho would like to know something about it. The reports which reached the Middle Islands were more detrimental than the truth would he. There was a report that there were persons that did know where these pccplo were, and that they have actually come to Auckland, and lan ecalled for supplies at the houses of certain persons. If this was the case their constituents had a right to know it, and therefore he asked that question, lie liad sun in the newspapers a report that the Minisiers decline to answer this question, fJo did think that the Colonial Secretary knew the reeling of the Middle Island'with reference to these prisoners, and ie felt, justified in asking— ]. What is the present position of the prisoners ;vbo absconded from the Island of Hawaii on or about he 9th September hist, as regards arms and tho obtaining supplies 2. Whether the report now prevalent in Auckland, hat .some of fhr-m have been sheltered by a portion >f one of the Kaipara tribes, is correct or not r 3. AVhy, as soon as it was known that the prisoicrs had absconded, they wcro not followed tip at nice, and re-arrested :< •1. Whether the present Government i-' prepared to real the prisoners in question as they would imloubtedlv treat persons of European descent simiarly circumstanced r

J!r. Wei.i) did admit that, the lion, member was perfectly ju-iificd in asking these questions, and ho also would ask the House to admit that circumstances justified him in giving sucli an answer as would not 1-e detrimental to the public service. In such circumstances of a .similar nature, his hon. friend would exercise a wise discretion. With regard to the first question, ho would state that lie had no special knowledge with regard to their arms. As regarded their obtaining supplies, he would ask, did the hon. gentleman mean were they receiving supplies from the Native Otlicn. If so, h.) was able to >'ive a distinct statement that such was not the case. Thev were not receiving any supplies. As to the second question, whether the report now prevalent in Auckland that some of them have been sheltered by a portion of one of the Kaipara tribe 3, is correct or not. He believed that part of them were at Kaipara, now on their way to Kaipara. Tho hon- member shakes his head and laughs. He did say that no doubt that as (lie hon. gentleman had the manage, ment of this affair

Mr. Fox : iS'o, no ! Mr. Wkld : There is a memorandum ou this subject in the otlice. Mr. Fox : It was done without incurring any responsibility. Mr. Wkld: If tbe hon. member wished to make a statement he was welcome to do so, and if ho shook his bead it seemed as if he knew something of t'je matter, aud be would like to jzet the information from him. Mr. Speaker : Please avoid debatable matter, and answer the questions. ;vlr. Weld said he stated, so far as ho knew, *ueh to bj the case. With regard to question IVo. " Why. as soon its it was known that the prioners had absconded, they were not followed up at once and •irrested ?" lio would suy that he knew of no reason. With regard to No 4- " whether the present Government is prepared to treat tlio prisoners in quee-

tion as they ivould undoubtedly treat prisoners of European desccnt in Bimilar circumstances ?" ho said that the desire of tlio Government was to assimilate the treatment of natives with that of Kuropeans in every case.' With regard to this particular question, he declined to give any answer. AIXM.IJtATISATrO.V SOCIKTV. Mr. Colknso, before putting tlio question, wished to say that under tlio present circumstances he was sorrv to bring it forward. He was sorry to increase the work of the Government, or to embarrass them in any way. The principal part of his question was in the latter part., and he would like, the Government to give him a decided answer— yea or nay ! His aim in putting this question was twofold, but would be bcneliciai both ways. The time was come when something should be done to aid the Acclimatisation Societies 011 the other hand, and this was the principal part of the question, he wished to restrain them from introducing vermin. The 11011. members had heard what expense had , been incurred by the introduction of the Scotch thistle.

Mr. Stafkohd : The lion, member is making a speech that is not necessary in asking a simple question.

Mr. Si'KAKKH : The hon. member was speaking at unusual length, hut if he did not introduce debatable matter lie did not feel himself called upon to interfere.

Mr. Colhuzo : Unless he was out of the way altogether, he trusted 110 hon. member would interfere. There were two other things introduced into the colony. Pome person had introduced bull-frogs from Australia into Wellington, and the fox had been introduced into Canterbury. If this did not call for the attention of the Government

Mr. Si'uakkk : The hon. gentleman is introducing debatable matter.

Mr. Coi.enpo put the question—Whether the Government woidd be able during the present " short session," to introduce any measure calculated to benefit the colony through the operations of the various Acclimatisation Societies? And, if not, whetlur tlie Government, would be pleased to cons idcr the same during the approaching recess.

Mr. Weli> replied (hat it would he impossible to introduce any measure of that nature during the present session. He could also assure the hon. member that from the deep interest he took ill the Acclimatisation Society, he and his colleague would be glad to consider the question. customs A or. Mr. Biionn: asked whether there is any probability tli:>t the promise made by the lion, the Colonial Treasurer during last session, in reference to a revision of the tariff, would be carried into effect; and if not, was it the intention of the Government to give this subject their consideration during the recess, ami prepare a bill for the amendment of the Customs Act, INoS? Last session this subject was brought before the House. Of course the late Ministry having resigned, their duties devolved 011 their successors, and he should like to know in what wav thev viewed the legacy left them. lie did not. wish to press the subject during this session.

Mr. Kit/iiMtlii'.UT replied that he was sorry that he was unable to give that definite answer which was desirable. Up to the present time the consideration due to it had been given, and 110 bill had been prepared on the subject. IMM IG KATtOX p('lli:M K. Mr. O'Rokkk s:iid it would be recollected that £300,000 had been appropriated last session for the purpose of introducing immigrant* into the province, and ho would move the motion standing in his name.

Air. Heahhu Wood said that nil the papers referring to ibis subject had been st'iil some time previously to the printers. There had been some (lillieulty 111 •letting papers from thein, and he supposed they had not been returned. Jt wn* certainly intended* that they should Jiavo been laid before tJie Uou?r.

Mr. Fox suggested that- the words 4< or any correspondence with the Superintendent of llawke's Hav, Wellington, and Taranafci, <m tho subject." The impression in the Middle Island was that provision had only been made for the int reduction of immigrants to Auekland. It should be known tluit simultaneously the Government had taken steps to enable the Superintendents of other provinces to appropriate their fchare of the loan, and to introduce emigrants.

.Mr. Dillon L»ki.i. moved as an amendment that the words " the scheme of immigration assented to by the Hernial Assembly last session" should be omitted, and the words " u scheme of immigration" inserted in their place.

.Alter a short discusMon, it was carried that thru* should be laid on the table c*f tlie House a return ol' the names of the agents appointed to carry out the immigration scheme, togctlur with a copy of the instiuetions issued to such agents, and of any cunrspondence that might have passed lKt\v ( \n them and the Government on the subject; and also, copies of any correspondence with the Superintcj.dent.s of Hawke's iiay, Wellington, Taranaki, and Auckland. NATIVK AFFAIIIS. Mr. .louji: moved, "That there be laid upon the (able of the 1 louee ;i printt d copy ( f the letter written by the late Minister, Sir. Dillon licll, to Slatutaera and other Waikato chiefs on the 7lh of 31 ay, lhGo, together with any correspondence conneeted therewith." Mr. Fox Mated ihat the documi nt fcr which the lion. m< mher had asked was amongst,a mass of papers on the table of the other House. lie believed the papers in one House were interchangeable with those of the other.

Sir. C-r. Oi'.aham said there was a letter of instructions to Mr. (iorsi which be had not been able to lind. It had been thown to the natives, and they complained of it.

Sir. Ohmonjj moved that the petitions of the late I member? of the Colonial Defence Coips be referred !to a select committee. Such <ommittee to consist of ! Mr. Slantell, Mr. -J ol lie, j\l r. .Vit/.Gerald, Mr. Walker. ; and Sir. J. C. Ta\lor. hi support of the request he would explain tlie position of these men. The terms were different in different Provinces. In Hawke's Jjay the term was for ihno y< ars, or until lawfully discharged ; but a permanent- engagement was intended, as they were to /hid their own hors* and equipments, lie did not know whether that arrangement was carried out in Wellington. .About six months since they bad reason to believe they would f rm a permanent force, and six weeks afterwards they hud been discharged at live days' notice. He might say that when told tluy woidd be discharged, tiny had behaved very well and bad formed themselves into a club to pay their debts. (Hear, hear.) It was with veiv deep regret that ibov hoard of their intended discharge and in fact he believed it was the mtfst valuable force in the erlonies. Sir. Co LENsO said he had been advised that the men could club together and bring an action againM tho Govennnent. Major Atki.nson suggested that the subject, should be referred to the Private Grievance Committee, lie was satisfied the treatment of the men had been very hard. Mr. »T. Wii.ua.vso.v supported the motion, but proposed that it should not be limited to that particular body of men. JJe referred to the Auckland militia and volunteers, and believed if they were called on again they would be mutinous. (Oh ! oh!)

Mr. Ckacuuit \V jr..*ioN *aid he whs surprised to hear a man who had been superintendent, talk of mutiny. }1 o (.Mr. Wilson) bcliewd it' tlie Auclvlanderu wore driven into a corner (hey would fight like AngloSaxons. ]n Wellington llio men had boon treated in a very hard manner. They hud done their duly and then were disbanded 110 Hires from tin: mctiopoli.s uf tho province, and went through that country which they lmcl assisted in quieting, exposed to manv hardships and dangers.

-Mr. Gjiaiiam said there \r;ts a reason why the hon. member for the City AVeet, (Mr. John Williamson) had used the word " mutinous." Three highly respectable young men, one of them an articled clerk, liad been imprisoned tor taking up a skull and laughing while they were out.. After their dismissal they with imprisoned again. In all they wore imprisoned for thirty-three days, and were never brought, to trial, lie (Mr. Graham), had served fur twenty-lour years ir> a military department, and had been with the .British army in various parts of the wr.rld, and had never heard of anything like it behue. lfe (Mr. tjraham) had not been able to obtain a satislaelurv answer from from the Defence Minister, who said it it'sled with the military. There were also other cases oi hardship suffered by other men.

Mr. Buows said the ease alluded to by fh ; hut speaker, luivu been dealt with in a ( ourt of J uriticc, und could therefore not 1 e entertained i.i that iiouse. Mr. T. Rl'sskvl said facts had been nvs \ipresented by the Jast speaker though of course 1 e emild not belfeve that .such misrepreecntutionri were -.vilful. The real fa :ts wero ihcee. Tie young ue i iutd been guilty of uomu zniaconduct.

at if F " <^RATIA?I: Of taking up a skull and laughing

Mr. Htsskt.i. : I do not hioiv the nature of the oflenco. Ho then contintlod—Tlie military authoritiea considered that tlioy should ho punished, and thoy wero detained in the guard tout while two successive coin ts oj enquiry woro sitting on tb.fi subject. 'J ho honoraulo member hud suid thero were no courts, wliereas tho fullest evidence was taken. Ho (Mr. Kussell) (staled that as a fact, having it on the authority ot an otlicor. The evidence was forwarded to General Cameron, ond his decision was acted upon. It there was any grievance or hardship, the voung men had thoir remedy. ' Mr. Taylor said that, having served with tho Auckland Milit.ia, l le wls obliged to object to -vvbat bad been stated by the lionorablo member for tlie City vost (Mr. John Williamson), that if called upon they would be mutinous, and not answer to tlie call <il duty. Ho (Mr. Taylor) believed in somo instances wardship had been done—(Hear, hear from Sir. Williamson) but he did not believe it would induce them to act in a mutinous manner. Major Atkinson said there was no objection on the part ol the Government to these resolutions, but they would point out that it would be well to refer this matter to the Private Grievance Committee. He (Major Atkinson) extremely regretted to hear the woids that had lallen Irom an honorable member. If there were any cases which ought not to be introduced into that liouse, it was wliero military decisions } m d been given. It would be subversive of all military discipline it the House listened to statements made by civilians in sueli cases. Mr. OltiloNI) slated that his objection to refer the motion standing in his name to tho Grievance Committee, was on account of that committee having already too much on their hands, and he did not wish to burden them more by placing this matter before them for consideration. The Select Committee had been named by him after deliberation, and those gentlemen would bo willing to act were the mutter placed before them without delay, otherwise they might be dispersed over the country, and the dillieulty would arise in getting them all together again. Tho motion was carried. COUPON'S BILL. Mr. Cahi.htox moved " For leave to bring in a Coupons Bill." lie stated tlr.it in asking for this leave lie was acling under (he desire of Government, 1111(1 that, the proposed provisions of the bill had already been under the consideration of the Government. otlieers. The great, object of the bill was to prevent forgery and to relieve the Superintendent of the province from manual labour. As loans wero uow raised on debentures by provinces, each debenture bail the reijiiisile number of coupons attached, and nm-.t, each be necessarily signed by the Superintendent. Therefore, take for instance, a'loan of £100,000 on debentures of £50 each, mid it would easily bo seen how often the Superintendent would have to place his signature to the coupons. Tho work was most laborious, and it was within his knowledge that the Superintendent had on one occasion to be up for four nights occupied expressly in signing papers. A bill of this nature had already been passed for the province of Olago. and one also, he believed, for Canterbury. And in the bill now proposed for this province piovision was made constituting a counterfeit, ot tlie stamps to the coupons an act of forgery, and punishable accordingly. Tho stamping of coupons has alreadv been acknowledged to have worked well. The .Bank of .Now Zealand, with whom the Government has already liegociatcd debentures, now take no objec.ion to the system, but, on the contrary, approve ol it. A signal lire could easily be forged, but toconnlert< it. a stamp would be lar more dillicult, if at all possible. He (Mr. Carleton) therefore asked that the bill should be allowed by the General .Assembly, in order that tho provisions proposed by it should be passed into law. Mr. !S. C. JS'Kli.Lsaid that in his opinion he did not consider it desirable to oppose tho passiig of the bill, but lie must, state that ihe Province would look upon the bill passing through the Geneial Assembly as an interference. I'or already had a bill of like nature twice been rejected by the Provincial Council. There was no doubt that tlie stamping of the coupons would give additional security to the documents, and tberetore there should not be any opposilion to the bill, but he mutt again say that it would be looked 11)1011 as an intcrfi lvnce by the Province. Major Atkinson statul that on the part of the Government there was no objection to the passing of the bill, and he was astonished to hear the honorable member (Mr. Neill) make the remarks be had done, which were as though tlie Province that was the Provincial Council was to override the Assembly. Mr. ItKYNoi.os said that he could not perceive the pa-sing ol* the bill could at all interfere with the Provincial t ouueil, and he thought the provisions were worthy ones, and therefore trusted the bill would pa.ss the Assembly. Jle could not but consider il a punishment Oil I lie Supei inlendent.to be obliged to sign his name so many limes to documents. Jle (Mr l-ieynolds) himselt had bad some experience in signing debentures, and he assured the House that wero he in the position ol the Superintendent, and hail to place Ins name so olten to documents as had been enumerated by the lion, member Mr. Carleton, be should certainly resign otlice rather than go through that tedious duly. He considered the bill very necessary, and trusted it would be passed. Mr. 1 no.it rsox said he was in favour of the bill, and so tar as Ihe security of the documents was concerned, a stamp was of far greater force than a mere signature. A signature might be forged, that was the act ot any one part, but in order to counterfeit a stamp there must be more than one conccrncd, a stamp being no easily thing to be made. Mr. Calil.kton in reply said that he utterly denied the correctness of the lion, member's (Mr. Kcill's) statement, whit h would lead to the belief that th§ whole of the Province was opposed to the proposed bill—nor was the Provincial Council at all opposed to the provisions embodied in it—why that Council had rejec ted a bill of like nature was because there could be made any provision against forgery. Jt was on this ground alone that the opposilion was made.

J.cave to bring in the bill was granted, and ordered to be read a lirst time and to be printed. On the motion of Mr. Ca iu.ktok the bill was ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday next.

WJi-TK j.AN I S. Mr. 'I ifOMt'SON- moved, That the Canterbury Waste 1 auds Act .Amendment Act be laid before the Crown l ands Committee, for them to report thereon by next Tuesday . Mr. O'lioiiKt* paid (hat he did not ohjcct to this motion, but he would cad attention to the Manding Orders, which required that tho act should be read a second time before it could be so referred as proposed.

After some discus-ion 011 this point, The Sl'lCAKKii referred to the Handing Orders, and read therefrom the.SOih paragraph, which stated thai after a bill had been read a second time it miuht be referred to a Select Committee. Jle (the Speaker) did nol, however, consider this as a necessity, and the motion was put and carried. WAsTi: I.ANDS CGM.MITTFK. Major Atkinson, in the absence of the hon. Mr. Weld, moved the motion standing in the lion, gentleman's name, That the nanit* of Mr. Thompson be added to the Select Committee on Waste Lands. Motion carried. • Certain correspondence relaf ive to a certain point of privilege between the two Houses of Assembly was luid 011 the table, and ordered to be read and printed in the journals of the House. OItDEUS (>!•' THK IIAV. The second reading of the Petty Sessions Tiill was postponed on the motion of Mr. Cauujto.v until the next silting day but one ; .And the second reading of the Militia AetsAmendment Hill was likewise postponed until that day. The Mouse adjourned at 3 o'clock until Saturday at 12 o'clock.