General Assembly of New Zealand.

New Zealand Herald, Volume II, Issue 327, 29 November 1864, Page 5

General Assembly of New Zealand.

L K Cr I S L A T T V E C O FN C I L . MONDAY, XDVraiHKR 2S. The Council met nt two o'clock. The Stkakkr having rend prayers, the minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. The Honorable \V. ii. Kknnv read the following address inanswer to tin* Governor'sopening speech e, Her Majesty's loyal subjects, the Legislative Council of New Zealand in Parliament assembled, respectfully thankyonr Kx< cllcncy for the speech "with which you have opened the present sresion. We unite "with your Excellency in cordial thanks toLieutenanM leiieral Sir Duncan <'amcron, to Commodore fcir William Wiseman, and to tin* otlhvrs and men of Her Majesty's army and navy, and of the Colonial forces, lor the important services they have rendered to t he Colony, and we deeply lament t hat the late gallant and successful operations should have involved the loss of to many brave otlicers and men. The question whether the lime lias arrived when the Colony may depend upon its own resources for its internal defence is one which demands and shall receive our gravest consideration. We will not fail to devote to the subject of the contra<t entered into for the establishment of a postal service by way of Panama, the serious attention which its importance requires. We earnest!y trust that the measures which your Kxcellcnry proposes? to take to restore order and to secure the future peace of the country may be crowncd with suece>s. We assure your Excellency that this Council will heartily co-opcrato in the promotion of any measures that may tend to the attainment, of those results, and we fervently hope that by united and patriotic exertion the Colony may under the Thvine blessing, he rescued from its dillicultas, and that the union and prosperity of both races imiv ultimately be established. MIN UTJ-.11l A L STATEMENT. The Hon. the -Attoknkv-Geneiivl paid: It will be in recollection of the Council that on I intimated that I should make a statement to the Council as to the policy of the Government. I am quite prepared to do so. Considering, however, that my lion, friend has announced his intention of moving the address in reply to his Excellency's speech tomorrow, it might be thought more convenient to postpone the statement until to-morrow, when it could be taken upon the motion for the address. 1 Bhmdd observe that there is at present, no question before the Jlousr, and, therefore, if 1 were to make the .statement, now, no debate could arise upon it. I would, however, defer to the wishes of the Council, and if it were quite in accordance with their wishes, | it would be more agreeable to that the statement should be postponed until the answer to his K xcellency's speech has been moved by my lion, friend. At present there is no motion, und .1 should be addressing the Jlousc rather by its leave and on suileranee« than in conformity with I lie orders. However, 1 am quite in the hands of the Council. .Another reason (hut, perhaps, might be given for tin 1 postponement of the subject is, that my hon. lriend the Colonial Secretary, has announced his intention of making a statement of the policy of the Government in the Jlouso of .Representatives*. At flic same time, if hon. members should express a wish that 1 should proceed with the statement at.oneo, j shall Inprepared to comply with their desire, otherwise 1 will, with ttie permission of the Council, dcler it til! to-morrow. Mr. Swainson thought the Council would be disposed to accede to the wish of the hon. the AttorneyGeneral. 'i he fcjl'KAki:k : it is evident + haf no debate could arise upon the statement if it were made now; there would, jis the lion, th* 1 Attorney-General had stated, be no motion before the House. It mighl;. certainly be bt'tJcr to take it in connexion with the address. '\ h- /\'iToitls'KV-Gi:Ni:i{Ari : It would be understood thai, no surprise was intended. 'J here would be noi him; extraordinary in the statement which I should have the honour to make to them, indeed, it wa* probable that their minds had been already made uj' on the subject. Mr. Mall thought that the hon. the Attorney General had at least given a very remarkable state iiv.-nt ior the postponement of his statement, namely that. it. wu* because a. statement, was to be made iv another place that evening upon the same subject, / (No, no.) Jie was not aware that any such praetici Jutd cjtibtul in recpect to otttteroentp by Miuic

Icrs. lie protested against, its being laid down as a s rule for their guidance, that, important statements s ill that, House should be postponed until similar s statements had been made elsewhere—(hear, hear) — 3 and that the Council must never enter upon the dis- c cussion of a ministerial statement in that House until it had been discussed in another place. r The Attoknev-Gkneuai.: With the permission of c the Council, I beg to state that as I had given one t very good reason for tho postponement, I perhaps £ erred in ollering a second. I beg to withdraw the f second reason. (A laugh). I will, however, cert:, nly t make the statement to-morrow. Mr. Halt,: Whether the Colonial Secretary i.::»kea t his statement in the meantime or not ? * The ATTOuNKY-Gr.NF.nAi, : Tcs ; whether the t ratc- J incut ot the Government shall bare been made else- ' where or not. 1 Ihe hon. Mr. Srweix moved an. adjournment of the Council until to-morrow, when lie would malic 1 his statement as regarded the intended policy and ' measures of the Government, but should anv member , wish him then to malic that statement, or it wouhll be to the inconvenience of any member of the Council that the delay or adjournment should be made until to-morrow, he would make his statement then. The motion for adjournment was seconded by the Hon. W. Sw'.wxsox and carried. The Council accordingly adjourned until 2 o'clock this day. NOTICES Ol." MOTION. 1. Mr. Hall on next sitting, To ask the AttorneyGcneral whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a bill for empowering Provincial legislatures to malte laws for assessing aud levying on Crown lands held under depasturing licences, rates for the making and repairing of roads and other like purposes. To move for leave to introduce the bill. 2. Major Richmond at next sit tin**, to move that'the Standing Orders 1 Committee for the .session should ci>n>i-i of the lion, the Speaker, the lion. Mr. Sewvll, tin* lion. Mr. Uali, the lion. Mr. Lee, and the mover. IS. Mr. llat.l to move, That in the opinion of this Council it is desirable that a copy of the work entitled * The iS r ew Zealand Justice of the Peace,' edited by his Ifonor Mr. Justice Johnstone, should be supplied to each Justice of the Peace for the colony. •I*. Mr. Hat.l to move for leave to introduce a bill to enable Provincial Legislatures to pass laws authorizing a compulsory taking of lands for works of a public nature. 5. Mr. T.wcrkd to move That any correspondence relating to Provincial loans in continuation of papers presented during the last session be laid on the table. (*>. The lion. Mr. Savainson to move, That there be laid on the table a return of the number of sittings which have been held by the Court of Appeal, under the provisions of the " Court of Appeal Act, ISG'2." Of the number of appeals biought before the Court at each sitting. Of the number of duvs each of the Judges was absent from his own district in attending ; each sitting ol the Court; and of the total cost to the Colony attending every such sitting. t. 'ihe hon. Mr. JSkwkli, moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend the " Camera* Act, ISSS." A bill to extend certain provision* of the Protection of Certain Animals Act, lt'.til. A bill to -.imend the " Auckland Reserve Act, ISSS," so far as eone-jrii certain lands, t he proceeds of which are thereby rendered applicable to the improvement of the Auckland Domain. A bill to validate certain acts done by R. H. TY>rman, Lsq., a Registrar of Deeds for the Province of Otago. 8. Mr. Sewkll also moved for leave to bring in the following bill : A bill to give to the Governor certain powers in disturled districts of the Colony. !). Mr. Skweli, to move, on Thursday, the Ist December: — (1.) That the great responsibility of Governor and Ministers in the management of Native affairs, has resulted in divided Councils, and in a vacillatin policy whih has been productive of great evil to both raees of her Majesty's subject* in this Colony—whil.-t it has entailed heavy and unnecessary expenditure, both on Groat liritnin and New Zealand. (12.) That this House recognize the light of the JTome Government to ins'st upon the maintenance of this system of double Government so long as the colony is receiving the aid of British troops for the suppression of internal disturbances, accepts tlie tlie al'ernative, and requests the lloine Government to "withdraw the whole of its land force from the Colony, and to issue such instruct ions to his Excellency the Governor as may enable him to be guided bv the recommendations oi' his constitutional advisers in native as well as in ordinary all'airs, excepting upon such matters as may distinctly concern Imperial interests and the prerogative of "the X'rown. (3.) Thatthe liousetakesthis occasion of expressing fs loyalty and devotion to the Crown, its deep ETatii i do for the general asMst-ince rendered bv tlie mother country to ibis Colony, and its cordial appreciation of I be gallant services performed bv her .Majesty's land and naval ioices in iS'ew Zealand. •I- '.That these resolutions be embodied in aivhumble address to bis Kxccllency fie Governor, requesting bim to transmit them to her Majesty's l'l'incipal ■Scerciary of State for the Colonies. 10. Major Whitniore to move, That the address in reply to lu's Excellency's opening speech be adopted. house or i;kpkkse.xtatiyes. MONDAY, NOVEMBER 2S. JiicroitT or the .ioint norsi: committee. The report of the Joint'lTouse Committee was presented to the House, recommending it to adopt a series of resolutions whii h w ill accordingly be moved to-day, with some others which will be found in another place. The motion of Mr. O'Xeill that there be laid on the table ol' the Xlonsc copy of a letter from the esident Mag'Mratc of Auckland to the Attorney General, dated November 7, ISHt. The motion of Mr. Gillies that leave of absence be granted to Mr. K. 15. Cargill for the session, and of Mr. Weils that the same be granted to Mr. Curtis for fourteen days, were carried. Leave was granted to Mr. Carletou to bring in a "petty Sessions Hill." lie said the proposed bill hid been lost he-fore in another place, in consequence of its having- been considered at too late a period of the session to do justice to it. The object of the bill was to make the "unpaid Justices do their work. The bill proposed to form petty sessions, whichshould sitatleast four times a year, leaving it to the Justices in any particular disti ie: 'o increase tho number to twelve times a year, or once a month. livery Magistrate was to be summoned, audit' he omitted a certain number of attendances without leave, he was to be /ji-so facto suspended from official duties for twelve months. Mr. \Vj:t.i> said he thought it was not right to bi-ing in a bill of this nature without, giving the Government time for consultation upon it. lie was not therefore prepared to allow the bill to go to a iirst reading, for, if the Government were to have any responsibility, they ought to lmvo a mind and opinion of their own. There would then he a healthy state of parties, and those differing from their views would form an opposition, which he (Mr. "Weld) should like to see, as a constitutional Government could not be carried on without such a state of things. Ile (Mr. Weld) hoped therefore the hon. lJfemhrr would withdraw the bill. If be did not, he would oppose the motion without any expression of opinion on its merits. Mr. NF.iXii.said lie was in favor of the bill, lint suggest! d that the motion should bo withdrawn for a feu' divs. Mr. Oaici.eton, in reply, stated that it appeared that the Ministry had mistaken their position in attempting to prevent the first reading of a bill, and were trying fo establi>h a sort ot Government tyranny." lie (Mr. Carletou) had sat in every session of th.-it Asscmblv. and could state that such conduct was quite unprecedented, ile should not, however, divide till! House, as lie was unaware of its feeling (hear, hear, from Mr. Weld); but'would give way. on the understanding that in a few days tho same objection should not be made. ! W.ISTK J..\M>s. Mr. If. G ltA if A m moved, for leave to bring in a bill, intituled " An Act fo Amend the Auckland Waste Lands' Act, 1558." lie said the object of the bill was to carry out the resolutions of tho Provincial Council at its recent ;e.>sion, for tho better working of tlie Land .Regulations, lie was sorry the hill was not in the 1 amis of hon. members, but he would ft'ivi : sullicient time before a second reading lbr them ti i liia-deri'. Mr. Pn.i.ON' Belt, said he should like to knou • what course tho Government intended to take wit! respect, to bills brought in by private members oi important- public subjects The most important subi ject, was the question of representation, v,-hieh was however, not to be considered till next session. Mr. Weld suggested that the Wa-te Lands Pegu- ■ lKtionc should bo referred to a committee, vhicl

aonld report upon them. If they were to hnvo a liort session, it was desirable tliat lion, members liould desist from bringing in so many private bills, le had already asked for permission for getting aditional days for sitting. ill-. .T. Paid he presumed the House would ot dictate to the various Piovinces how they were to ispose of their waste lands, as the price differed in he different Provinces. The regulations required Iteration, for in this Province a man might not only ;et land as an officer, but also as being a Waikato llicer, and under the 40 acre system. Mr. Fitzgf.uajj) said that it was not proposed that he regulations in the various Provinces should bo issimilated, hut it was thought that, by referring the uliject to a committee, detail matters would bo iscertained, which could not 'well be brought out ill he Tiouse. Mr. Staitoud said he had heard with great pleasure the course which the Government proposed to iiiopt in pulilie matters. So long as a Government iv.is in olliee it was responsible for everything done. J-'hey should, therefore, give attention to every .nil, no matter who it emanated from, and that hey should not- afterward say, if it was broughtin by i private member, that, it was no cliUd of theirs. In that rase it would be very difficult to get independent members to introduce bills. Any Government that idhered to the principle laid down by bis lion, friend would have his support. "With regard to the land regulations, he was of opinion that the matter should be brought- before a select committee, not with a view to assimilating them, but simply to place them within certain limits; any bill proposing to give away land lor nothing would fairly be objected to. He thought the Assembly had done wisely iu abstaining from interference in Provincial regulations. Mr. Cakletox said the lion, member for Nelson had laid down some common place positions with mueh oracular vanity. Sir. i-'iT/.i; e-;ar.jl could neither agree with the view taken by the Ministers, nor yet could he agree with that of liis lion, friend who had just sat down. Tho gentleman at the head of the Government had stated the principle on which he intended to act rather 100 broadly. It was too common in tho House of Commons tor public hills to be brought in by private hands. There was no rule that such should bo the case. 1 f anv question was brought in by private members which interfered with the functions of the Government, they would have a right to fa}' leave that to us. But it was stilting too broad a principle to say that no public bill should bo brought in by private members. He hoped the gentleman at the head of the Government would state explicitly whether this was to bo a long sitting or not. If it was to be short, nil the legislation of tho House would be necessarily hurried and imperfect. This was a question resting entirely with the gentleman at tho head of the Government. Mr. ]\ichaim)so>" would simply remark that it was desirable that this session should be a short- one, and with that view the Government had discountenanced bills of this clas-s. The hon. gentlemen the member for the Bay of Islands, had mistaken tho pc-mt. It was owing to not having conferred with the Government that opposition was made. It hail been express"!}" said that the Bill might be considered at a future date. Mr. .loitx Williamson said he thought it- was not right on the part of the hon. gentleman to bring in this Bill on so short a session, to have the particular clauses he referred to expunged. The clauses were introduced into the original bill at a time when the urgent need of military settlers was felt. The Colony had been warned, that shortly a large body of the military would be withdrawn from the country. It would be highly advantageous that the land regulations should be allowed to exist. He thought that this Province should oiler inducements for the military population to f-c-ttle down in the country where their services might become valuable, rather than that large sums ol' money should be taken from the public purse for the introduction of people who, when they did arrive, are ineUicient to perform the duties required of them. lie thouslit it umviso to move in this dirccticn at all, especially at this time. It was a question for the Government whether such alteration should be allowed at this time. He would not- oppose the introduction ot the bill, but thought he was in duty bound to oprose it at- the second reading—no because he had had to do with the framing of the original "Waste Lands Act, but because he saw that, at this time especially, it would bo unwise to alter t lie Waste Land lieerulations with regard to military settlers. He would not oppose thebill at present, but would oppose it at tho second reading. Mr. fi. Gkajiaji remarked that one of his objects in bringing the bill before the House so early was because it was to be a short session, and he wished to give hon. members as much time to consider upon it as possible. 'j.'hc-re was a large coal field just opened at ivawakawa.and ir was with a view to enable the Provincial Government to lease that coal field that this bill had been brought- in. e He thought it desirable that all Land Bills be referred to select, committee, and if this bill were allowed to bo brought on, lie was prepared to liavc- it referred to a select committee, and would have that committee composed of gentlemen of the province of Auckland who are well acquainted with the working of the Land's Act i:i this province. 'the bill was then read the first time. The bill was then ordered to be printed and to be eada second time on Friday next. ELECTION 01- SII'EKINTEXDENTS. 3lr. Fitzgeualo asked leave to renew tho motion standing in his name until to-morrow (Tuesday). OMATA AND TATAIIAIMAKA LA-VDS. Mr. Joi.lie said he had put the motion standing in his name on the paper with a view to obtaining in formation of considerable interest to the House. He believed that the proceedings which were taken bv Government in ease of the land at Tataraimata would lead to mueh discussion. He had been compelled to put this motion on tho paper, because, in the usual channels of information, he had not been able to find what arrangements formerly existed— the circumstances of the ownership of the land, the conduct of natives in regard to that particular block, and the intention of Government on that subject. From till the information he could gather, he could not find that any declaration of forfeiture had been made by the Government. He thought, if he was not misinformed, that there was a proclamation which was not acted upon, at least, was not published. He thought there would be much which it would be advantageous that settlers generally should kuow which would be found in the papers lie asked for. It was for Government to state whether grants bad been promised, and he thought it wo'dd come within the terms of this motion that there should be laid before the House the declaration upon which the proclamation took place. He would refer to one or two phases in the bill which would bear upon this subject. (The hon. gentlemen here road copious extracts from papers referring to the matter.) He would move that there be laid on the table a copy of all papers respecting grants to military or other settlers of land, between Omata and Tataraimaka, in the Province of Taranaki, under the conditions notified bv tho Colonial Secretary in the Cuvemm-nt Gazette of' July C, ISG3, No. 27, together with a return of all grants made or undertaken to be made pursuant thereto. The motion was agreed to without discussion. iiokioi a.-:i> I'lttoiiioi XEwsi'ArEHS. 'Mr. Fox in proposing tho motion standing in hi 3 name said, honorable members were aware that durin" the period previousto the revolt of the Natives iu the 3 Waikato, an attempt was made by his Exce - lency, when he had no responsible advisers, to establish a school and printing office and newspaper establishment at Te Awamutu, at Mr. Gorst's station, lie need not refer to subsequent events. The object entertained in establishing a newspaper in the Maori language was to oppose the views of a journal issued bv "Maoris called tho 110/.-wi. It so happened that there was no complete file of these two papers in existence, with the exception of one whieh he (Mr. Fox) had succeeded in getting together with much trouble, and which was now iu the Native office, J'e had no other wish but that these documents should be printed, that at some future lime they might furnish ail hiatus in the history of these colonies. He would move that files and translations of any copies of the Jlokiof and iltoi/toi newspapers in the possession of tho Government be laid on the table of this House, mMr. Dir-LOX Bei.l wishc t to take exception to one observation made by his hon. friend opposite. Ho (.Mr. Fox) had said "that the Governor at that time was without Kesp'msible Advi-:ers. He must pro- ' test au-ainst that, for the Ministers were responsible ! . i • »i > i»flairs as well us in , in the advice they g.«M d by tUe H „ u , e anv other matter?, arid weu i'. co_,i» « ' was that on the ad" : t-V i upon the l i - , 0 f late Government. The 10 lift upon iu <11■ x . - iniiid that Ministers vera

and Sid «o nt that time, and 'were Tcsponalblo for that advice. It tb not right that my hon. friend should . state that as a. fact. They might not have the power •to enforce the Governor ta follow their advice, but "they vrero equally responsible if ho followed tboir ad<vice. The motion was then carried. rEHTION FROM THE HOTS OV THE UIOII SC l:fO DUNEt>lls\ f Mr. Bevnoliis believed there would bo no objection on the part of the Government to tliismotion. He knew that thore "was a perfect confidence in the ■Government, that this might be left to their judgment. Undet these circumstances the proper ■way was to the matter in their hands anel they would do even moro than the petitioner® had asked He would therefore move that the petition of the scholars of the High School Dunedin,be printed and referred to the Government, with a view to their taking such steps in conneition therewith ns to them may seem advisable, Motion agreed to without discussion. REPEAL OE NEW PROVINCES ACT. Mr. Betkoijis asked leave to renew this notice ol motion for Wednesday night, seeing that the lion member had expressed an opinion with regard to these private Bills. Leave granted accordingly. liEPOIIT FROM COMMITTEE ON mIVATK BII.IS. Mr. Carieton brouplit in a report from the Committee on private bills and asked to have it rend. The House then adjourned at lialf-past six for half an hour. At 7 o'clock the House re-assembled, a'io Mr. Weld proceeded to make his statement upon the policy of the new Ministers. He said : Sir, I rise to exercise the right to which yourself have already alluded, of speaking first after the adjournment of a debate. because I felt it would be for the convenience of the House to take the earliest opportunity of giving as far as possible, under the circumstances i which thev take office will admit, a statement of the views and" intentions of this Ministry. There are, I believe, certain usages to bo adopted, and it is a question peculiar to New Zealand although hardly usual for Minister to get up and make any general statements, giving an account of all that is goine* to be done during the session; yet at the samo time there are certain advantages in our system 'as compared with England. I intend, as far as possible, to comply with the wishes that have "been expressed, although there are some quostiens ■which can only be fully treated when we arrive at a perfect knowledge of ail the particulars. I hope in a few days to be able to speak more definitely on the special points of policy which enter into the Ministerial programme, and which I do not intend to touch upon now, or touch upon only in a general way, because the House will feel that nothing could bo more disastrous then for a Minister hurriedly, and upon the spur of the moment, to attempt to speak his mind before having the facts and data upon which his mind must be made up. I think for the purpose of this present debate, it would be best for me to go through certain paragraphs of his Excellency's speech, to take that- document as furnishing the order in which T shall lay my views before the House. "When I come to any paragraph to which I consider that some special attention should he made, which it is requisite should he properly defined, I will, with the permission of the House, point that out. The first subject to wliich his Excellency refers is the reason which led him to call the .Assembly together. "With regard to the resignation of the late Ministers, I don't intend to enter into that question. I think it will be no part of my duty to enter into subjects upon which necessarily the House and myself must be imperfectly informed. "With regard to the state of the country, I think the state of the country is obvious to all. It is in that state when, if at any time the wisdom of the Assembly Ehould ever be called upon to aid the Executive in solving the many difficult questions which have arisen, this is the time. I will make no further xommcnt upen that. His Excellency states that with the least possible delay he has appointed gentlemen of both Houses of the Legislatnre as his advisers. I must put somewhat plainly my own views upon the duty of constitutional advisers and their positions in the present peculiar state of a flairs existing between His Excellency and the Ministry. It appears to me that the proper constitutional course — certainly the course that Twill endeavour to adopt, is that Ministers should treat His Excellency as in the position of a Constitutional Sovereign, and with whem the}' consider it will e their duty to consult; giving to his views the same weight a 8 those of a constitutional sovereign might be expected to exercise with Ministers at home. After such consultation, takirg all themattcrs info consideration, the arguments advanced cn either side, supposing any difference to occur in which hi 6 Excellency might refuse to accept the advice of his Minister, then in case of such difference it is our duty to resign. On this I tale my stand. It "will be our duty—a duty lying at the root of all constitutional government, whether in our native country or any other, I say upon the first serious difference it will be our duty to resign. (Hear and cheers.) I say that this lies at the root of all constitutional government; and you have seen in the papers presented to the House certain stipulations and propositions which I felt it to be my duty to lay before his Excellency before I would undertake thetask of endeavouring to form a Ministry—apropos.iion which appears to my mind to convey the whole gist, the whole value of the memorandum on which this proceeding rests. I think it right to state frankly that if the Governor should think it consistent with his duty to differ upon any point of polity, whether Native or any other point, with his constitutional advisers, both myself and my colleagues will place our resignations in hiß Excellency's hands. In the words of the memorandum, the Ministry therefore considered that the Assembly should at once be called together and other advisers summoned. That is the real point of the whole case. It is perfectly true that the English Government —which assists us with large supplies of men, so long as they are aiding the colony with large assistance, may demand that they shall have some voice in the management of the affairs of the country. I do not of course say that we have not other rights. We have a right—a right which we will not hesitate a moment iu exercising when occasion may arise, the right to offer our protest —whether upon native or other mutters — against any course that might be adopted by the Governor, who may differ with us in opinion, and at once resigning our offices and responsibilities. I think that no Governor can ultimately resist the pressure and the feeling of the people of this country. I think it is a great constitutional privilege. There is a great constitutional end to be gained, and a great check may be given in forming another Ministry. I will say that though it may he well that a constitutional sovereign should have that check, still I say that a sustained earnest public opinion must in the end prevail. (Cheers.) If Ministry after Ministry resign, it is impossible that the people of this country cannot gain their end. Sir, I have had a great wish to call the attention of the House in this paragraph to the memorandum. I there indicated that it would be my wish to call the General Assembly when we should have occasion to resign our offices into his Excllencjj's hands. I do not wish to make this statement to reflect on the conduct of my predecessors in resigning before the Assembly had met. It is quite possible that under the same circumstances I might have taken the same course of action. It appears, however, that as far as practicable we shall get out of the custom that is creeping on us of "throwing down our cards too soon." We shall resign on the first serious difference, not hurriedly, not without giving full weight to the arguments which his Excellency will address to us, but after having considered and talked over the whole matter in dispute, if there remains any question between us, then I say my colleagues and I are of one mind—our resignations will be placed in the hands of his Excellency, when the Aasembly shall have been called together. The next paragraph to which I wish to draw attention of the House is as follows: " Steps will be taken with the least possible delay by setting apart landu of the rebel natives for the purpose of indemnifying the colony for the expenditure incurred on account of the present rebellion." Now, sir, in entering upon this question, I mnst be a little diffuse, and go c little into the reasons assignad for the passing of the New Zealand Settlements Act. It appear: to me that a view has been held—it was thi view of Mr. Charles Butler's committei of the House of Commons, of which Lord Howicl was chairman, —that Natives had no right to lands exccpt such as were absolutely cultivated. If tlia view were tenable now, there is no doubt that th only title the Natives possess would be under th Treaty of Waitangi. If they contravene that treaty their title would drop. That view was considered b; the House, by the country, and by myself, as unten able. The whole course of legislation shows tha this House has abandoned that view, I have neve knotoi—and I Harfl lited in thifl solony tot ver

mrmv ytxiffi—that such n -new had any advocates in 1i this Souse. I will instance ono Act of , 18G2, on the Nativo lands —tho Act at Wollmgtoi , which took a lino of policy entirely inconsistent with the views just propounded. Therefore J 1 take it as being the unanimous foe ing of this House that wo could not rest upon that ground, if nnv confiscation was necessary. 1 must dismiss that part of the subject. 'I hero is a second yew however, that a Native forfeits by rebellion h.s lepal title to the land. I believe it might be said that a Native in rebellion should L>o considered guilty of treason—that upon technical prounds, upon conviction, tliev would be so adjudged, and their anels would be accordingly confiscated. There is no doubt that, according lo English law, a man loses his property if he is convicted of treason; hut this only applies upon his having been convicted according fo law. There is a point, however, which may rune escaped hon. members who have thought deeply on this subject, that the. punishment of forfeiture for treason,'though it applies in England to English subjects, docs not apply to English Colonial dependencies. 3n England it is diflercnt from what it is at Ceylon and other colonics. I ho reason in England that a man loses his property lor treason is bccauso the land has been held hi d has descended from a feudal tenure. In other countries f his is not the law. In many colonics it is not the law. The House therefore felt that it would rely on neither of these pleas: therefore, the House felt that it was necessary that rebellion should be checked by inflicting punishment which, while it was humane, was (flicaeious, and while it pointed to tho loss ol such and such a piece of laud on account of lehellion, would yet make the native in all probability a richer, a better, and a more civilised man by its operation. (Cheers.) The House felt that new legislation was ncccssary on this subVct. Last session 1 placed upon record mv own opinion with rcgald lo flic op( ration of fhe Settlements Act. My view was the same view that was taken by the Domett Government. The intention of the Pome-It Government, in proposing that policy to this House, and of this House in adopting it, was to fortify its position, and, while inflicting J unishmcnt, to recovcr advances maelc by the colony. "\\ o are quite prepneel to reeommenei to His I'xcclleney to carry out that aid. I think tho object was to put Taianaki in a greater state of security than it had previousty been. I den't know. (I say this to my hon. friend opposite, having hardly had time, under the peculiar circumstances, tostuely carefully all the eoiTCJ-pondenee on the subject), whether in what 1 have said 1 expressed any difference ol opinion, or whether 1 entirely coincide with the hon. gentleman who pieceded us. There may be a little difference in the mode in which we should wish to carry out tho New Zealand Settlements A ft. It is my intention now to recommend that for tho purposes which have been mentioned, blocks ol land shall be confiscated, but by such confiscation 1 do not mean a large floating and undefined confiscation, extending over distant parts of the country, anel which would tax the Colony to an indefinite extent. My idea of the intention of confiscation is to strengthen "the eolony by the conci titration of the settlers, and placing,them in sell-supporting ami selfdefcneling positions—(loud cheers)- —not to "weaken it bv a diflu;;on or to prolong by hostilities in respect to undecided claims. (Cheers ) 1 mil giad that hon. gentlemen coincide with me in that. A\ith retcicnce to this point, I may sny that we arc prepared to recommend to his Excellency without any delay to put these views into etlect. I have already told the House that if his Excellency thinks fit to elifi'er from us, there is but one course open fo us. (Cliccrs.) I will also at this perioel of my statement make reference to theemigration selicme under the auspices of the late Goveri ment. The papers, however, on this subject have not been printed, and theiefoie 1 have not been able to mnste-r them. I was not here eluring the whole of the last session, but 1 believe the feeling was that we should have military settlers, anel not settlers who might piovo to bo itutq able of elefcneling themselves. Sue-h was, inelecel, my feeling, as it j was tl at of the House. I do not, however, wish t | prejudge this question. 3 may not 1 e fully inloim eel I find, however, that our pretlecessors have put a stop to it, anel if they had not elone so, we should have felt it our "duty to have aelopteel that course. There is another e|uestion whieh 1 appre:ach, hardly knowing how far the House will agree with me ; yet upon whieh 1 will take this opportunity of expressing my views. It is a question as to the disarmament of the natives. 'Ihat is a question on which, as all my private friends know, I have ever expressed a very strong opinion. When an honorable member, a friend of mine, the member fcr kelson, was at the lieael of a Ministry of whieh I tco was a meml or, there was hut one opinion in that Ministry that it would not he aelvisible to attempt a general disaimament of the natives. It was possible that we might have been in agreement with our preelee-cssors em that, but I wish to state as a question of polie-v, that submission to authority of the Crown made it necessary that elefeated natives might be fairly calleel upon to yielel their time, in token of submission. But if honorable gentlemen will say that we were to disarm the whole of the natives of Hew Zealanel- —(oh, oh)- —1 beg the pardon of any honourable fricnels, I wish to state my own opinion, that it "would have bce-n absolute-ly preposterous to have disaimeel the whole of the: native population, lor it would have been impossible in the first place, and eve n if it were peissilile, there were other excellent reasons, for if you could succeed, you woulel only d'saim your friendly natives, and would leave them at the mercy of their em mies. (Ilear, he:ar.) If you took a few e>ld anel rusty musko-ts, it was probable they woidel be replaced by new rifles. Here is still a higher ground, we have no right toelrivc any set of pe-ople to desperation. '1 henis no doubt that, if the Maori people potsess many faults, they have also many viitucs. They are a gallant pee>ple\, as we know and are ne>t ashamcel to confess. They have been noble foes in many instances. I say it would he a crime—it would be worse lhan a fault—to drive these people to despair, and we should drive them to despair, if we attempted anything like universal disaimament. It wemlel have been a crime to drive them into a corner—it would have made them feel that we were de sirous tei disarm '.hem first, to fall upon them after. Therefore, whilst f am willling that they should be disamied when defeated, in token of submission. I do not ge> for indiscriminate disarmament. In the next paragraph of his Excellency's speech, it is stated, " I regret that the Province of Taianaki anel Ngatiwanui countrystill remain in a state of disturbance, and it is my intention promptly and energetically to take such steps as may appear best calculated to restore order in those districts, and to place the settlement of Taranaki e a a firm and sccure footing." Now, I think it is necessary for me, who have so often expressed to the House on this subject my strong feeling with hon gentlemen opposite, and with every honorable gentleman —for whatever tho difference of parties, we are united on this sub ject, the state of Taranaki is intolerable. It is a disgrace not only to this ceilony, but to the British Empire, a state of things whieh tho most energetic steps should be taken to put an end to, a state of things which the honorable member for Christchurch very properly described as a menace to every colonial settlement in tho British dominions. We propose to advise his Excellency, and I will do justice to tho honorable: gentlemen opposite, for I decline to accept a meed of prai.-e that is duo to them, who also advised that energetic steps should be taken to settle this ejucstion for once -tfand for ever. Our view of our policy in respects to disaffected districts of this kind, bases itsel upon the expeeliency of road making. Wo consider that the history of the great colonising nations of antiquity (ells us —from that of Greece of old up to the India ol yesterday —that it, has been the lesson both of history and experience, the best way to tame wilel anel savage countries was by throwing roads in every direction across it —(hear, hear), —anel if I am to be an aelviser upon questions having reference to uncivilised people, anel unopened countries, 1 would make my wate-h-------word, " Koaels ! roads! roads!" I would say to the natives we will carry roads through the whole of this country, from North to South. I should not say that we will elo this to-day or the day after. I woulel say that we have the right, that we have the power, that we have the determination to proceeel from one , end of this islanel to tho other, anel make our lino ol ; communication. In doing this, we would not necessarily say to ikem, "We are going to do it by force," j but we woulel say " If you choose to fight to oppose _ us, we will fight; and if you choose to work, we wil! be ready to pay." I would bo inclined to invite ' Natives in districts not actually hostile to wc rk upoi roads. I would even guard them with a body of oil] men, who would prevent their being molested —for ] hold that thej best guarantee for the peace of this > country is in the employment of tho Natives, whet 1 out of the common feeling of instinct their advantage " and their gain would tend to promote their advance '' ment in. civilisation. Theieforo I ehould at onci ' | begin maklDg rcada bot*vee» Ttwenalii and "VV"nr>»ra

mil; it would "undoubtedly "bo the policy of tho Government that those provinces in which the roads were to bo made shoulel pay tho cost. I feel sure that that expenso would not fall so heavily as might have been anticipated; of course, after so short an interval n dny or two in office —wo can hardly be expected to pay so much in respect to native affairs as we shall be prepareel to elo when we arrive at a more settled state. It is my opinion, however, that any attempt to force institutions on tho natives has been, and will continue to be, a failure. I think that with the most benevolent aims we may fail in chawing the natives to accept institutions; though if occasion should arise, as I hope it, may—if wc can induce the natives to desire institutions, it would bo by giving them an interest in peace, anel enabling flicm to sell their rights and their lands. I he'lieve, if we can induce the natives to accept these relations with Europeans, we have a fairer and fuller, more perfect guarantee for the peace of the country than could be obtained by forty acts of the legislature. I say that it is in the primary instinct of self-interest that we find the truest, guarantee for the peace of the country. His Excellency says "Her Majesty having seen fit to entrust to "me largo and discretionary power, so long as the Colony accepts the aid of British troops for the suppression of internal disturbances, it will be your duty to consider whether the time has arrived when the "Colony may depend upon its own resources for its internal defence—and the Governor be thereby enabled fo be guided entirely by the recommendations of his constitutional advisers in native as well as ordinary matters, excepting only in such as may directly eoncern Imperial intrests, anel the prerogative of The Crown." The House must reeollcet that this passage does not commit it to any exprcssicn of opinion on the subject. The subject' is e>no of vast importance, and should he treated bv itself. In the resolutien which I havegiven notice to move on Wednesday, wo will have the whole: of that subject before us. Tho matter is one which requires vour greatest, most serious, and calm elclihcratien". I shall, therefore, reserve what, I have to say cn this .subject, for it is one on whieh 1 also feel dee ply ; tmf, as 1 have said before, the: terms of the paragraph do ne>t binel the House to its acce-pt-anee. (Hear.) The next sentence is as to flic removal of the scat of Government to Wellington. Now this is a question wliie-li lias been fully elebate'd last session. My own opinion is, that 1 am acting iu this matter as a man who has alicaely expressed his opinion. An honeu-able ge'ntle'inan saiel that, theiewere no Auckland members in tho Ministry. I mnst plead guilty to that impcae'liment. 1 must ask my honorable fricnel whether T eoulel have gone to any Aucklanel member anel have: askoel him 1o take officeiu a Ministry wliie-li made the removal of the se-at ol Government a ministerial e|iiest:on. An lleiN. MsMUKIt: Yes. Mr. Wim.ii : The honorable gentleman says "yes," hut be might h'.ve refused. (Laughtoi). You may ctdl spirits from the vasty dec:p, but will tliev come : (Laughter). 'J he scat of Government question has gone intc> such a position that net Ministiy will be four eel until that epiestion is finally settled. However, the question is one: whieh I could not have cemfe-ientionsly called upon an Auckland member and askedhinito joinmi: in a proposition to remove' the seat of Government firm Aue-klund to Wellington. We mav neissiblv he aee-used of not having eliree'fed our attention to the state of public opinion in reference to this and other matters. We are, however, calh'd to join this Ministry at. a state of great crisis in the Colony. 1 am aware that this question of the removal of thc'Suat of Government must be a cardinal matter with the cemstitue'nts in Auckland, and wc may be blamed ill-natuie-dlv because of our determination in this matter. 1 do not sny that this is elone illnatureellv, because 1 have in the e-ourse ot my public life' much reason to thank the public for the leniency with wliie-li tlu'y have spoken of my public actions, whieh, leii g open to criticism, and whether treateel as errors of juelgme-nt or not, have' al--na-\s rce-eivcel lenit iie-v fre-m the public whether the'y agreed or elille-'ieel Irom me. In respect to Auckland, 1 do think that a few yeais hence the inhabitants of this magnifie-ent provine-e, which in seme' le'spects contains nutuitil e:apahilities whie-li are net jqualhtl by any other part ot^' Ni'w Zealand. 1 say that this magnificent province should not bemade to elepenel ell sue-h a small eonsieleiation as the' seat ol Oetvcuimcnt. If I were an Aue-klanel man,as 1 am— if not a ceismoj olite, a Canterbury man —1 should be ineli pendent of any such ceirsidcrations as those applieet in the: objections n.aelc by the' lion, gentle man. 1 1 ope when this (jue-stion is settleel for ever, and 1 hope that may be very shortly, J hope te> see Auckland faking "its proper position in the Colony. The next paragraph relates tothe-finune-ial position of the: Ceilony. Her Majesty's Gove'rnment, it is stated, has offered a guarantee of £1,C00,C00 loan ; but is stated by the Ministry that a elue regard to the just rights of foimer creditors, and the engagements entered into with the provinces may, without any detriment to just claims preferred by the Home Government, pievcnt your aice ptance ol (he ' olicr. It appears to me (hat we cannot accept that guarantee ; though it is painful to have to state tc e1,,. Rnrii l-inciit that we are obliecd tc

' reject their trims ; teims offered from :i good ' feeling for the colony—(a laugh)—but. it is ' iiiijiof-sible for us to accept tin- tonus with ' honor. I believe the Home Government-would be rather in our favour than otherwise); tor it would he ' clear that in this ease we would not appear so selfish as we are said or popularly supposed to be at home, ' it. being appnrent that a feeling of honor alone pre- ' ventsus undertaking questions of finance. It would ' he impossible for u.s, until we had time to look about us, to enter upon all llie branches ol this subject. My hon. colleague will on Thursday make a i har 1 nil, and cor,.plete stati incut of the prosp( cts of the Colony; and be will indhate the coui'se it will be ' necessary to take ; 1 think it will probably l>e necessary if this is to be a short session, in view of another 1 session immediately to follow, to authorise the issue ' of Exchequer Hills. Aiillox.Alf.muku: Ucsides the loan ? Wr.~Wp.-Li): The lion, gentleman will cxcufc me(A laugh, and cheers.) I may state that it will lie ? tlio desire of the Ministry to keep faith witli the 1 public creditor and the engagements entered into i with tlie piovinces. To break faith with the public t creditor would be to ruin the Colony. We feel on the l other hand, that if we were to starve the pror vinees in any way, it would cause a state of disl treSs throughout the country. It will be our t duty to make the greatest sacrifices rather > than allow this. We will pledge ourselves to f the utmost of our power to respect all engagements i with the Provinces. Next comes the question of the r Panama contract, a question upon which we will 1' give the House another opportunity of more fully <■ expressing their views. We propose to bring down 1 a bill on the subject, which shall be (lone as soon as ' we can get the bill prepared. J twill be a bill giving -1 certain powers of modification to the Governc ment. AVc need not expect that the House will e follow our views upon the details ; as long as the nia : n principle of the bill is accepted, it u will be open to honourable gentlemen to express u their views fully. We consider, however, that we 0 arc not to repudiate, and that the House will go with us that we are not to make any repudiation. We 1 think that tinder the terms of the contract, we have s such large power of putting pressure upon the Com'i puny that we shall bu able, as we intend, to remove its most obnoxious provisions. If] the House will pledge itself to the general principle that wo will not commit an act of repudiation, the House will have an opporj. t unity of considering the matter in detail when the bill which wo propose cornea before the House. ' r It will bo the proper course to appoint * a committee to go into the question of the recommendation we will make with regard to tho ' details of tho contract. With regard to tlio question of a short session, it will depend upon lion, members 0 themselves whether they will refrain from crowding '' tlio notice paper, and putting long and puzzling 1 motions. If we are to have a notico paper crowded with bills, without any previous consultation, .1 will ask tho Houso to treat us as tlioy have treated former c Ministries, and adjourn for a cer'.ain period, so as to ;s give us a time to bring that complete policy which is y desired. If there is to bo a session of three or four months, it must bo understood that when tho Houso begins to fall oil', it will be a quesc tion whether we shall not bo obliged to recommend a " prorogation. If hon. members wisli for a short sesslon, they will pass the motion which [ have tabled to-day, giving precedence to Government measures. If they refrain from doing any more than is actually necessary, 1 undertake that wo will get tho Govern:e incut business over in a period of about a fortnight, " and wc will then ask his Excellency to yroroguc the 'I Assembly. Wo will resume with acompletostatement of our policy, in tho session which will take place about ls tho end of March, or at latest the beginning of May, or at a time when hon. members shall deem most convenient. We wish to conduct the business of the If, ] House on the giound of ati understanding between " u j libit. members and ourselveß. JJothing i". further 1 " I frcji! jny thins la Coxae '.hijit?;

mouths of hon. gentlemen. X wish that hon. I v members would come aad consult us, ask ua, ** can you I s help us in this," or " accept that," then we can get x through tho business. It cannot bo a short session if t we are to support every proposal that every hon. t gentleman may choose to make. I now como to the t Acts which it is proposed to bring in. In tho first i place, there is tho suppression of Rebellion Act, 1 which will lapse at tho end of this session- It is well i known that I always abjectcel to that Act on < bnsti- n tutional grounds ;it appears to me to bo an Act which t was brought from tho blackest and darkest ages of s penal legislation. That was an Acttakonfrom tho Irish c rebellion, at a time when two races, animated by the t fiercest liifferenccs of race, religion, and birth, were 1 brought, into violent antagonism. The act was, 110 e doubt, passed under the influence ol' fear, and I have i always heard it spoken of as the opprobrium of peual i legislation. A different act was the act of 1803 ; an f act whieh was fairly applicable to the circumstances J in this case, anel which involved in its exercise no i real objection anel wliie-li may be applied to i the disaffected portions of Kow Zealand. 1 Then there is an act to prevent tho i New Zealand Settlements Act from lapsing; as 1 in such an event tho Queen would exerciso her , powers of disallowance unless we pass some modification of it. There will then bo an Act to confirm the Panama contract with powers lo modify ; also an Act to authorise the purchase of lane! at Wellington for Government House and offices, if that is not already permitted by the: Act of last session. Them there is an Act to take lands for roads and military purposes. Thero is a point on which, before I sit down, I will say a few words ; namely, the elille renccs be twecn his Excellency and the late Ministry. 1 will merely stale with regard to that, that it appears to me if wc are lo have a short session it is impossibleto go into (hat epiestion. lam not prepared to pronounce judicially on (hat. 'J he vast mass of papers upon tiie subject woulel require long and patient study. The Government will at all times be reaulv to give any information, anel give every possible facility to put (ho case on record ns to their diffcre-iiccs with his .Excellency. I hope the House will be content, to leave this question to the judgment of time, when the questions can be discussed calmly anel free from the passions whieh woulel be exciteel by elcaling willi it now. I will say one word, and it shall be a short one, as to the reasons which iiieluced usto undertake thoformation of a Ministry at this time, fcir, we have taken office at a time ol flic greatest difficulty, that has been known since the commencement of this Colony. Never in any recollection has tlu-re been a time ol such crisis anelelanger as the piesent. We are surroiitieU:el by almost a forest of difficulties ; we are called upon as it were to stand sentry over the interests ol the colonv. 1 will simply say for my colleagues. and myself that we have been animated by "the sentiments which prevailed with tho greater t man that cur age has produced —a man to imitate, "who said in a few woreis, " Her Majesty s Government must be carried on." We followcel that example, anel il we: are called upon by the country, and supported, we fee'l it to be our duty, re'gardless of the sacrifice we should have: to make regardless of the rcputatiem made: through a series of years, even at the: risk of our influence, we would not idlow the Colony to remain without a Ministry; we woulel not allow all that we have struggled for for so mauv years sueiele'idy to collapse, lest it shoulel lie saiel that no Ministry could be formed. We trust the House will support us in doing oureluty, and that if iu this attempt we fail the verelie-t of the country anel of future time will be at le-ast this, that we lailed, and fell in an attempt, to do our duty. 'J he hon. gentleman resinned his seat amidst loud chee ring. '1 he ie\seilution being put to the: vote, was carried. Mr. Win n move ef that c crn-mittee be: appointed with instiactions to prep: r • an addre'ss in loply to the- Go\ eiiieir's [opening s] ce h. Such ce mniittee to consist of Mc-"srs. b it, Atkinson, LichaielSUII, anel Whitake-r. Mr. Veld tlie-i, proposed thai the: House adjourn to enable the Committee to bring in the address. Generally tl.e Committee ae'jouriied until the next day, but if in the opinion of the Council they should withdraw for a short time, they c-oidd at curt? rcjipprar. The Council Uu'roupcm :igie°d to vilhdiuw :uid to re-attend, in order that the re port might be icrcived. The Cemimittee then adjourned for half an hour, it being half-past eight o'clock. Oii the Council again being rcsumi:el, the reply to the: Governor's spee:ch was read, and Mr. JeiHN Wir.i.i-MisoN took objection to (he paragraph in the speech proposing to change the seat of Gov crnment (rem Aucklanel to Wellington. 11c said that looking tothe interest of the Colony he e-oulel not allow the paragraph proposing such a change' to pass, anel lie woidel ask the hon. members to look at the elange-r whieh would be attendant on such a change at t he present t irne. And if there was one objeetie>n more than another it woulel be founel in the- House, namely, the minute of the Governor in rcgarel tei the ejuestion where the Assembly shoulel meet to hold the present Assembly. Ihe general feeling \eas opposcel to the present change of Government, anel especially

against, any immediate removal of the seat of Government. All were aware that the Maoris, to some extent, were in insurrection, nor had these who had been most lately giving tho greatest trouble been re captured. All wire well aware of the great in con vcnicnce of mombers having to attend at. Wellington when the Goionior went there. On one occasion it was notorious; llie Assembly at Wellington was delayed on account, of the steamship which carried the Governor being delayed on the East Const tor one week. And lie would ask the hon. members to consider what great and serious consequences might arise were the Governor at present to be taken for niiv time Irom the provinces in the unsettled state in which these provinces were now in. And although the General in command of the Forces might for the time being be delegated here, still the absciico of the Governor in a crisis would be of greatest, disastrous etl'ect. If his Excellency were at. Wellington on Parliamentary business, and his presence w*cre required here at Auckland, what giave and serious considerat ion should that be and lie would call upon the honourable members themselves to consider the precarious position ol the natives and the colonists— and looking at the present position ol Tanuiaki, if ever there was a time in which danger or at least doubtful security might be anticipated, it was at the present moment. It would be remembered that in the year 1815 the present Governor had to take up his aboco in the North, and he was there incapacitated from giving full and necessary attention to the natives who were then in rebellion. He was quite certain that were tho Governor's presence necessary in Wellington or elsewhere, no man in Auckland would wish to retain him here. And in coining to these conclusions, he looked to, and took the opinion of, those who have resided among tlu natives here, and be believed ho was fully guidcc bv t lie opinions of the members ot tho House. And ho would again urge that at. 110 time were the e)n par's mso precariousa stale asnow. Aucklaiidhat snlkeiciU reliance on its resources towork out its owi profperhyand didnot rely on the present or future seal of t.oveinment. Hut lie (Mr. AViliianison) must say that it Wiia not now the proper time toi lemoval of lhe Government, if such removal wen at all neeessarv or expedient.. Since 1851! he luu attended the House, and whenever it bad been hi: duty to attend he had attended. Other member: might have neglected or refused to attend but lie luu aiwavs been and still was ready to delend this pur of the Colony. Aml be would ask the hon. member to consider the objection at this most critical time ti tho present change of Government.: that irrespective ot the expense of iueli removal, it would liecussitab a separate anil distinct constitution for Auck land, and Ihcreloro ho proposed an amend incut to the parngiaph above mentioned propositi! to change the seat of Government. Ho had waitei to lu-ar tilt: iSuperiiitPnoent of Auckland to object t' the paragraph ; but since that gentleman did not, h hit it his duty to do so. Wellington was not at al dependent, in on the proposed change of Government and he was certain Auckland could fully do withou it. Tho Government did not wish to with draw members from their residences; and why, there fore, withdraw from tlio present seat, of Government And ho would ask tho hon. members to bear iu mill, that Auckland required over anil above its Provincia Government a special Government from her Majesty Should clu.nge really take place, Christchurc mi."-ht, "perhaps, be tho most convenient place. 11 would now, for the reasons above mentioned, prppos tho amendment to the paragraph, namely : — "We beg that your Excellency will not take ani action upon the report ot the commissioners aj pointed to enquire as to the most eligible place i Cook's Straits for the scat of Government until pri vision lias first, been made for constituting the l'rc vince of Auckland into a separate colony, to be rule by a Governor to be appointed by her Majesty, and Legislature to bo chosen by the inhabitants thereof. All : O'Roi KB secoi doi the umondment. Mr; CoMiNfio said i Worn ho ft member f« ? A«9l Jus'.'; t* taisUv tfc saiA tiifti to •ausfwstvd in

view ho took of the question. He Tose to support the striking out of the 7th clause, hut he could not support the amendment proposed by his hon. friend on the right (Mr. J Williamson). "When they received - their summonses to attend this extraordinary session they were told, and the various newspapers repeated it, that the speech would he, for once, one of the old ' historical kind of speeches—a speech written by one 1 man, hut such was not the case, and if ever he was < astonished at reading anything, ho was at reading ] that portion of his Excellency's speech in which he stated—he immediately intended to remove the seat ; of Government to Wellington. If ho wore to say - that when he was in the legislative Council, and heard that, he shuddered •, he thought he did not express himself too strongly when ho said that he shuddered. (Laughter). Honourable gentlemen might laugh, hut if ho were to assign a good reason for th-1, would they laugh then ? < Ho shuddered because lie looked to Sir George Grey as knowing a great deal of the natives, and of late even standing up for them, and his Excellency by this step shewed (bathe did not know so much of the natives as he thought, or else that he had been led by some other persons. He was led to that, conclusion because he had been thirty years among the native?. If the language used in the paragraph had not. been so strong he would not. have spoken. This was the onl v paragraph which has been debated in the last session, and yet such sentences could be put into the address. If the House goes so far as to 1 lunik Irs Excellency for bis promptitude in removing the seat of Government, they stultify what they did on the Inst session. Did lie (Mr. Colcnso) not savin this house last year that if this should be carried out it would end in separation, and that is what mv lion, friend on the right proposes to wait for. "Why was it that this identical paragraph was drawn up in di(lbrcnt words. The paragraph should read "We have received your Excellency's intention to remove the scat of Government to Wellington." Put- this address " thanks" the Governor for doing what will ruin the colony. Ho had every confidence in the Ministrv, and it had been a matter for consideration whether lie should speak at all. Ho litid seen the evil of a "Ministry drawn from both sides of tho House; he did not intend to go into the whole of the address, but confine himself to a part of it, and bo rose to declare his opinion and to vote for the striking out of this paragraph. He recollected very well'in IS'l4 and 1845, how greatly the troubles were ineieased by the removal of the seat of Government to tho Bay of Islands. If it had not been for that, he believed that Korornrika would have stood to this day. ne had heard the Natives express their astonishment at that. He had heard old Natives declare to him that tlicy believed there would lie danger if Government disappeared out of tho place. Ho believed that the Natives themselves were concocting a petition to flic Governor, and that lie would not go to Wellington until tho war was at an end. He represented a province which would be l )Pr ,ef\ttrd by tho run oval, and vet. he would not vote J'or an individual province, but for the benefit of the whole colony. Mr. Fitziifrhfrt had hoped that the course pursued by his friend at the bead of the Government would have been cui.-ied out, considering that it is a subject wliieb is settled in both Houses of the Legislature, and therefore his friend was discreet in declining to re-open this subject. He was confirmed in the judmnent of the course lie adopted. The argument of the opposition party was that the removal of the Government would entail misery, expense, and ruin in the Colony. He would be able to match signature ag:i ; nst signature, and memorial against memorial, from tlie South, against any memorial from .Auckland. 'J hey were cheap. If they went on trying for the dismemberment- of the Colony at last tliey ""would dissolve Ibis mighty Empire info the ultimate molecules of society. He did not know how manv provinces,it would be a cjuestion of every head of a'family being the Governor of a province in himself. He Teiected with scorn. though with the deepest respect, the remarks of his friend, respecting separation. Ho entered his protest against it, and he saw with confidence that this Assembly would support them in ii Tliey might not have brought before the House the most perfect ' sketch of policy : yet they did deserve some credit foi : this attempt against mighty influence, against a tenant in possession, which amounts to nine-tenths of

the law hut tliov appeared like n. set of ' (many of tliem ivere pilgrims from Canterbury) come* to dispossess of nil inheritance tliose who arc in possession iuk! consequently are enabled to battle with them on far more advantageous grounds than they as comparative strangers could have. He was sure that his lion, colleague would bear him out in saying that there"was a united mind on this subject, and the sor object is to endeavour to avert the dismrmberment of the Colony. Ho believed that under this Act the future welfare of the Government depended; and when this Government should be removed to that central locality, from that day forward the formation of a Ministry would be made more easy. He supported every word of his lion, friend at the head of the Government when he made those observations which were dictated with a sincere desire on their part that if any question should arise they would be more inclined to consider more the situation and claims of Auckland than at another time or under other circumstances they would be likely to do. .And it lind been a matter agreed on between them that 11 they contemplate d tomaken Lieutenant Governorship ' the" Province of Auckland, but a general separation ? they set their faces against. Mr. Taschfh : When this matter was under eonr sideration last session. Otago members voted against 0 this measure, but did not succeed in obtaining a ' Lieutenant Govcnior for the Middle Island. This is " the top that the lion, gentleman holds out to Auck--1 land. Although the Southern members last session 0 carried the day, and had Commissioners appointed, L vet they should not come and crow over the Auckland members, and ask them to thank the Governor for what " they did not like. It was by an exceedingly narrow e majority, and by means which ho would not eharnc--11 torizi! that this measure was carried, no foresaw 0 that when the seat of Government was removed to e "Wellington, they would raise the Auckland vcoplc to s a sense of the position that it ought to have had long ago, and then they would have a division of the two '' Islands. He would suggest that the hon. member r withdraw the amendment rather than press it to a s division. The majority were pledged to carry out this scheme, and, therefore, the idea of an amendc' mont was ridiculous. Mr. Caulbtox: The hon. member (Mr.Fitzherbert) is working to produce the dismemberment of which e he and the Government were complaining. 110 would e not support the hon. member for the City West, in II attempting to get a Governor for this Province. It " would be idle to expect that such a favor would bo granted from home, and if it were he would not be 1( j willing to see Auckland so entirely isolated from , the rest of the colony. The subdivision of the two islands he had always looked upon with repugnance. 'J Ultimately such would bo the case. 'Jhero was but little hope of a reconciliation of their interests. " There is in ibis island a powerful native population, whose interest, spite of their folly, must be cared for • by the Province, and which would be attended by a heavy expense and it could not be expected that their L ! southern friends would bear a share of the tax much '. longer. He would not be disinclined to vote for the ls amendment of the hon. member for Auckland 'Citv West. Ho was inclined too to help his Wellington friends to a very good argument in their own lf favour which they had not made use of. Their ,s Wellington friends were strongly inclined to Yankee notions. One of the Yankee notions was that the seat of Government of a state should not be in one of f u the principal towns. Tliey carry the seat of , Government to a place which is not the principal place and which will not bo likely to become one. (Laughter.) The reason is that hon. members should J be free from any pressure from without. If he had ° sympathy with Yankee notions lie should attach great weight to this ; but he could not find enough weight in that argument to induce h'm to vote for the re- ' moval of the seat of Government to "Wellington. " Mr. Gillies said that as the lion, member for the 1 City West (Mr. Williamson) had proposed an amendmeiit, ho felt bound to state why ho could not support K j it, although his views were unchanged from what , i they were on a previous occasion. With regard to the removal of the seat of Government, he regretted that lion, members should have made their arguments 1 turn on the advantages or disadvantages to the place where it was. He believed the removal of the seat of Government would not be hurtful to Auckland, but hn apprehended that was a low '■ ground to put the question on. He did not l'~ propose to rip the question up again, as it had already 111 been decided ill that House,— but the attention of the Hous> had been called to the matter in an uunecessary and offensive manner. It was sufficient that the Commissioners appointed had ecommeiuled .'J the removal of the seat of Government, but they had 1 gone further ami asked the hou?o to thank His i'.x- ,, ( ccllencv ibr its V**tsior;>l: He UiOHfiht tlui ' lvA.ii mttttar* vhd ASasslWs?" -

.dviscrs, were Teally"honestly deserving cf the strnrwv* if the House and the Colony, for taking the pofitiT he had under the circumstances, he himself would upport them with a due regard to his own conviction le thought they would carry out the policy requirJ jy the Colony better than their predecessors, and wju lclighted that they had obtained from the GovertS various papers and other things which had not been jbtained by their predecessors—such as the confisca. ;ion of land. He thought the Government ou»ht to lave alluded to the causes for such an unusual sea■ion other than the resignation of the late Ministry tt was quite sufficient, however, perhaps that thevhad found points of agreement with his Excellency." Xhe Panama contract would require consideration by itself Be thought the intention was not to commit the House by that addrcßS. It had been stated that the Government will bring down a bill to modify th e contract and not repudiate. If the agent was an accredited agent, where was our right to make modiHe ation? If they did so, they repudiated. The question was, did they admit that he was an aecredited agent ? They had then no light to modify i single detail, for then the Company would have a claim to compensation. It was a contradiction i u terms to say they could affirm the contract and vet modify it. In former times there had been a double Government in native affairs, but by the Duke of Keweastle's despatch of Feb. 23,1863, ti ere had been thru3t upon the colony responsibility in native affairs. The Governor had negative powers of refusing to act as his Ministers advised him. Hut the positionnow wa:, that he could take steps contrary to their advice The Duke said you might appeal to the Assembly from your Ministers. No Minister had ever claimed tho right of directing Her Majesty's forces. The Duke went on to say if the Colony require the trcop 3 for a propose His Excellency disapproved of, he might refuse. He could not agree with the member at the head of the Executive when he said that he recognized the right of tho Governor to insist on the maintenance of the system of double Government. In connexion with the troops the Governor might refuse to allow the troops to ho employed for certain purposes, or England might withdraw them. Such had been the action of the .Imperial liepri tentative that the war had been piolonged ; without him peace would long ago have been concludcd. (Cheers). H e knew it was a habit in many quarters to cay that the late Ministry desired to prolong the war, and to aggrandize Auckland. They had heard no doubt that the lato Government desired a general disarmament :—Mr. Weld objected.—The hon. member continued, that ho accepted the statement. He was delighted the land was about to bo confiscated, but he trusted Ministers would locate military setticra only in the most remote posts, and in a proper place wher they could cultivate properly. Mr. Voc.jcl proposed the adjournment. Mr. S. OitAir,vM seconded it. Mr. C, "Wiisox objected to the adjournment. Mr. Readeb "Wood said he should oppose the adjoumment, which was negatived. Mr. Keadeb Wood said ho was anxious to address the House. He thought the present Government deserved all the support possible of the House; bat he should state his points of agreement and disagreement with them. They appeared to wish to escape firm tho anxieties devolving upon them, by getting away as quickly as possible. The great peril which prevented his Excellency from asking the advice of his advisers, was the escape of the prisoners; alter every effort to get them back had failed they were given to understand that the seat of Government wes to be removed. He called it an evasion of their duty on the part of the Ministers. The expenditure of £20,f 00 a-year was as a drop in the bucket to Auckland, but the people of Auckland wanted the stat of Government heie, because this was the province which was mostin need of Government. Government that pave prompt attention to public affaire was required also at Otago, but in "Wellington the e was no such difficulties to contend with. However, if the hon. gentleman were to modify his amendment lie might obtain more support, if he did not advocate separation. It was perfectly clear to him that the time had not arrived for the Colony to undertake its own internal defence. He would lind ioO.COO a year the smallest sum to maintain a colonial army. ' The only plan is cordial co-operation ■ with the Imperial Government. Flying in the face of Great. Britain would be the ruin ot the Colony.

Tlie cliflieultes which liad arisen had not been occasioned by the colonists but by the Imperial reprcsentative himself. lie did not want to rakeup the jast,but whe ll it is said that ilie colonists were endeavouring to proong the war and occasion difficulties he should p>it the blame where it was—namely, with the Imperial With regard to the p ara oy.ph about the loan he could not quite understand it- There were but two General Loans, one of £'500.0u0 guaranteed, and a smaller one of £150,000. Ho v as not aware that the holders of the latter were oppo." d to their accepting the Imperial guarantee 13ut eu lposing nn objection liad been taken they could iuive said tliev would pay them off. The next part related to 'lie engagements with the Provinces. Two < ourscs were open. To allow the Provinces to have the management of their own lnnd revenues, and the other to consolidate all the loans. jtfr. Williamson said he could noteonsmt to alter his amendment. , Sir. Robert Graham said he had heard the speech of the honorable member at the head of the Government, and on some points with pleasure, but he wss opposed to a division of responsibility—when he saw that members were desirous of removing the seat of Government at this critical period, he doubted their capability of advising ir. native affairs. At the present moment "it was doubtful what the escaped prisoners would do. Healso was opposed to the withdrawal of the troops while the natives were so disturbed. That wasa matter which should be left to Great Britain. He was "lad 110 Auckland member was in the Government? as it could not then be said the aggrandisement of Auckland was desired. He believed the onlv method of calming the country was the location ot military settlers ; with respect- to double Government, a few weeks since he himself had been appealed to bv settlers with respect to the escaped prisoners, and "when he went to the Ministry they referred him to the Governor who referred him to the Ministry. He would more as an admendment, " We find ourselves uuableto give favorable consideration to your Excellency's proposal, that the seat of Government should be' at once removed to "Wellington, being of opinion that such removal in the present unsatisfactory state of our relation with a portion of the native population, would be mjunous to the interests of the colony. " . . , TII3 House then divided on the question that tne words proposed to be left out stand part of tlie ques tion, being Mr. Williamson's amendment. Ayes 2 I J, and Noes 17. , Mr. Graham's amendment could not, therefore, be put. Panama route. Mr. Richmond proposed, as an amendment, That this clause should receive the consideration ot ttie H Mr? Veld said they intended to bring down a bill on the subject, and he would therefore ofler no objection to that amendment. , , , Mr. Crosihe Waki> said that he had intended to take this matter up himself if it had not been a 'en up by the Government. He thought no modihcation could be made, and he himself thought them necessary, unless the liiatur were referred to a fcelect Com ""jli- 1 A'or.K.i. thought this question was one which should not be mixed. If that contract is not- w n <™S> and this colony's credit was damaged, he thought that the colony owed that hon. gentleman very ' ltUe "•ratitude who"entered into the contract. That con. member went outside the Panama Act altogether. He thought that he could take upon himselt under instructions he had received to promise a monopoh ot' steam service, and a new interproymcial steamers. Had counsel been consuhcd on these matters, he would have found that the opinion wmtt have been decidedly unfavorable. He (i r - ,\£. thought tho House should not take upon lUel (Mr. Crosbie Ward's) liabilities. The amendment was carried. UEI'BESJSNTATIOX OF THE COLONV. Mr. John- Williamson directed the attention of the Government to the state ot census had been taken, in consequence of the caused bv tlie war ; and, therefore, the of Auckland would be at a disadvantage. Hi. truthat steps would be taken promt ly to lary relief lor the sufferers m tins Province thro thu \var. PRESENTATION* OF THE Al>l>W»* Mr. Fitzheuhket proposed that the ?I> eaK '\ r sent the address to his Excellency witin as members as wished to attend Ilia., and th ;<p aker wait upon him to ascertain when itvouu convenient to wait upon the Governor. Motion agreed to. j n - Mi'. FiTziiEßitEiiT moved that the .Uoue.usitfl te«j»t>rTo*. Twsfdsv at. Ifc • ivurf ihia rt s $mitt w *'*•