PROVICIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume I, Issue 295, 22 October 1864, Page 5

PROVICIAL COUNCIL.

FRIDAY, OCTOBER 21ST, 1864. Xiir. .Speaker took the chair at 3 o clock. There T-'ms fourteen members present. _ _ The Clerk road the minutes of «he previous sitting;, which were confirmed. FETITIONS. A!,- Sw vnsux presented a petition from J. Buchanan and other.-,. T)>a pet itiouers prayed relief, in. consequence of injury do,'s3 to their property lrom a. drain in tlie South road. 1 Yimous were presented bv J- 0 " omi F. M. Alexander, also from' Lew is J. Hopkins, by Mr. C.vu.MAX, from George Taylor ai""*H. ii. Csimth... These petitions related to land clailns. ritovisciAij accounts. . . Sir. i:v. man" gave notice that at the sitting, lie would move for a committee to consii~ ter accounts for the Province. (Hear.) . ill-. lu Nc; rose to ask the lion, member at theh.° a(4 " of the Executive whether it was liis intention toinoi"' s ' for tlio appointment of an audit committee, but the hon. gentleman, by the motion lie had just made, J,ail anticipated hi'm. But it had been the usual 1 ice to lay the accounts on the table within three days. lie thought this was the iir*t duty of every Government to take care that its financial position should be known. He was astonished that the hon. <;( nllonian bad allowed so much time to elapse, bafc ■jlad that notice had been given, and there was some: pi-obabiUtv of the accomils being laid on the table.31 r. jS T i:'w>rAX said it was the practice, as the hon.member had suited, that the account* should be laidon the table at an early period of the Provincial se6--Mon, but it wjs rarely thai a Government found itself in tile peculiar circumstances of this session—the-" General Assembly meeting so soon after the session. But it was also verv seldom that accounts wero received bv the Council made up to so recent a elate as tlir.se which would now be presented, namely, up to the 30th of September. On Tuesday, the accounts will be printed and in the hands of lion, members. MOTIONS. iUr. Gatxacgjiek moved, "That a respectful Address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, reeuestini; liim to soud to this Council copies of all Reports of the lingineer-in-Chief on the alterations oil, anil the additions to, the old Wharf at Onehunga; ami also that copies of his reports on the proposed new Wharf at Onehunga be laid on the tablo off this Council with as little delay as possible.

Lapsed. . . 11 v. J- O'Kkill moved, " That tlio petition of Octuvius Suialliield be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Curried. INTF.ItrRETATIOX OF WASTE lASD ACT. Mr. Caklktok moved, "That the petition of Patrick Gibson, andPatriek McMahou be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." lie said that he had n word to say in reference to this motion, which would have some interest for the Council. It was not Ills intention to enter upon the merits of the case, that being a consideration more appropriate lor the Committee. He found that in the judgment of his Honor the Chief Justice, ill the SupivnuT Court, a distinction was drawn between military, medical, and other officers belonging to the purveying department under certain regulations. Under that decision military officers were en tit ioil to grants ot land, whilst medical and purveying officers'wero not. With respect to tlio decision o fit self, it was not for the Council to impugn it, and ho lor one would have been disposed to remain satisfied if it hail been pronounced as a tinal decision, lint there arose out of it a question* of great interest to the Provincial Council. Since last addressing the Council he had obtained still further information. He held in his hand u letter from the Governor's Private Secretary which was as follows : — Private Secretary's Office, Auckland, Sth September, ISG-1. Sir, — 1:i compliance with the request contained in vour letter, No. of the Dili instant, I have tlio honor, hv the direction el lus J'->"cellcncy the Governor, to acquaint you lor the mioriuatioii of the j.ieutenant-Geiieral Commanding, that liavii g referred the subject: to his responsible advisers, lie has been informed that it is the opinion ot" the AttorneyGeneral that the medical officers ot the army ore military otiicers within the meaning of the Act (Auckland Waste Lands Act, 180 S.) ami are therefore cut it le.i to ■•runts of land as such. 1 have, \v., (S'<neu) fcI'KNITU M. Meuley, Acting Private Secretary. 'The Military Secretary, Hold (Quarters. JCow medical officers were excluded by this' decision, and in consequence of this opinion JJr.. 1 ± » [ who was assistant surgeon, was about s t o' > others wviv about to ilo iho same. 4 1- > : contended ™ ; the Council to ascertain what was tm. F

•tnodical officers and others "who wore said to be in tho ■ same category as officers of the Purveying Dcpart- • merit. If that derision were final it \v:is not clear •-that medical men'had any title, and the Council -were : called upon to interfere. J t was absolutely necessary • for the Council to enter upon some such inquiry. .As to the argument that petitioner should go to a ' Court of Law, it was evident, as he stated in his pe"tition tJiat he was driven there by the refusal to grant Mnfeis land. He did not go thero of his own election. When referred to tho usual committee to in- ■ quire into the grievances there would bo considerable information given, to tho committee. Mr. Wynn said lie felt it his duty, although reluctantly, to oppose this motion. 110 was to a certain extent responsible for tho course that had been adopted, for when it camo before the Government the matter was in tho usual course of -business referred to himself. • On looking back At 'the history of many of these cases ho found one 'of two applications which Qiad been refused on grounds similar to those upon ■which the petitioner's claim was disallowed. These urcre the cases of Messrs. George Graham, Gooch, and Braithwaitc. As regarded Graham, ho was subsequently allowed to select land as a warrant officer, 'l'lie others, who held situations similar to that held hy Mr. Warwick, were rejected. Tho position 111 winch he (Mr. Wynn) was placed, was this : that to rallow the claim of the petitioner would be to do an injustice to those who had been refused, and as law adviser he could not bo presumed to take so import ant a matter into his -own hands. He therefore advised Mr. Warwick privately to apply for his remedy "by mandamus in (he Supremo Court. When the •ease camo on for argument he (Mr. Wynn) opposed the claim and succeeded, and he was willing to admit that it did nppear a hardship. He thought the plan dor Mr. Warwick now to adopt was to go to the Court of Appeal, or to ask the Legislature to bring in a law interpreting the Waste Land Act of 1858, and introduce a clause having retrospcctivo effect under which the petitioner might obtain relief. This lie thought would be done, for in giving relief it was perfectly competent to pass a clause taking retrospective effect. He (Mr. Wynn) wotild move as an amendment, " that the potition be referred to the •Committee upon the Waste Lnnd Act, for their information. Mr. J. O'JfEixtj seconded the aifiendment. Mr. Xr.vo believed that officers engaged in the IPurveyer's department were military officers. He ;thought that if tho Council wero to examine toe ■ closely into the claims of all the persons having grievances, and take into account technical objections, there would be a great many applications refused. There was no desire to review the decision of his Honor the Chief Justice, for he said the case was likely to come beloro another tribunal. The clausc was framed for the purpose of getting the best settlers :and military officers were named especially, without the least intention being contemplated of drawing such a distinction as was now made. As for the in- . terpretation, he thought the parties who made the law were best able to interpret it. The consideratioi: of the Act had occupied nearly three months ir passing the House, and the greatest care was taker in tho framing of its provisions, a circuni stance which showed the great necessitj there was for clearness in the making of laws He thought that the Judge himself was obliged tc give a legal decision against Mr. Warwick,huthe musl have entertained a feeling in his own mind that thai gentleman was equitably entitled to the land. Mr. O'jSeiel, thought the amendment was pro posed with a view of giving to the petitioner's case : much larger and fuller consideration, and a speediei and more effectual relief. He thought tho questior ■which the cluhn of the potition involved, was oni peculiarly suited to legislative reference, H( thought tho Private Grievance Committe( "would "not entertain it, as they would -very naturally feel a delicacy in setting up their decision against thai of the Chief Justice.

Mr. Cadmax thought that the petitioner vras a -military officer. Mr. Kf.rr said it was evident tliat Mr Warwick •was driven into court, as he could not have ob tained his land without doing so. He had no other alternative. He would support the motion. Mr. Newman did not wish to pronounce any opinion or to hold out any hope to the petitioner, upon the reference to the Committee of the Waste Lands Act. Of course the Government, in respect to •this and other matters, -werebound by a legaldecision, and could not wilfully throw away public lands. It was his intention to bring before the Committee resolutions for new clauses, but he was not prepared to say that these clauses would provide a remedy. The result might bo that these clauses would be cut off altogether. "Mr. Gallaughek said that the petitioner was, in «very sense, a military officer, being mentioned in the Queen's Warrant. He was treated as a military officer in every respect, and entitled to all the honors such a position could give him, down to the salute of the humblest sentry. Mr. Ball supported the amendment. The Private Grievance Committee could only give partial Telief, and their action could only be retrospective as a precedent on which there would be 110 authority. Mr. Caiileton' thought the hon. member opposite had given to the motion more effective support than he perhaps could have expected. As to being driven into the Supreme Court, it was quite evident that the petitioner did not go there mcro mo/it. Mr. Wynn had before replied to the assertion that petitioner came to the Council ad ???is'rrcord'unn, that he might go away ad miscrieordtam. This was a very flippant and by no means a becoming answer. However lie (Mr. Carleton) thought the suggestion of reference to the committee on the Waste Lands Act in some respects rather favourable to the petitioner than otherwise. It did not matter which committee gave the relief. He accepted the proposition of the hon. member opposite. Several members suggested that the Council should divide.

The Council then divided, when there appeared for the amendment, ayes 18; noes 4. Mr. Cheeseman moved, " That the petition of Mrs. Kickett and others be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Mr. Kino moved, "That the petition of .T. Carthv, Otahuhu he referred to the Privato Grievance Committee." Mr. "Wyjtn to move, " That a respectful address "be prcsinted to His Honour the Superintendent, requesting that all papers and correspondence between the General and Provincial Governments, relating to a recent claim for land made by Colonel Kenny, be forwarded to this Council." Mr. Newman moved, " That the following nam s be added to the Select Committee on the Auckland Representation Act, 18G4: —Mr. Ball and Mr. Webster." Mr. Newman said that this motion -was of vital importance, as calculated to secure the good government of the Province. The committee had been selected with the greatest care, but the names proposed to be inserted were uccessary, in order that every division of the House should ho fairly represented. Mr. Wtnk did not object, to the addition of these particular names to the committee, but he did object to the principle of putting new names on committees generally, without reason, or any imputation on the constitution of the committee us originally struck. Itwas not all necessary that every single division of that house Bhould be represented. He objected to the enlargement of the committee. It might be made so large as to be quite unworkable. He would move as an amendment that " It is not desirable to add any further names to the Auckland Act Committee." The Pkovincial Secivetauy said the lion, member opposite had not understood that Mongonui and the Bay of Islands were not to send representatives to the committee because they were not proposed to be interfered with. It was a mistake of the printer. Mr. Keeb was of opinion that the committed was too large. Mr. Newman, admitting that there were a number of printer's errors, consented to withdraw the bill. Mr. Wi'Njr begged of Mr. Newman to ask for an adjournment in order that he might have the opportunity of studying May's Practice, which lie would find in the library below. He could not ask leave lo withdraw the bill as it was already before the Council. He (Mr. Wynn) had drawn the bill, but he had not received any information about it, and it was the Provincial Seereta, y's business to correct, it if it was wrong. • Tho bill was withdrawn by leave of the Couiic 1. PAYMENT TO JIAILWAY COMM IS.SIONEUS. Mr. CAMtAN moved. •' That, in the opinion of this Council, none of its members, cxcept those named in the Government Contractors Bill, should receive any emolument or. honorarium as Railway Commissioners, or otherwise, from any public funds of this Province." He said that every member who had votid for the motion cf the other evening, were bound in honor to voto for this. He, himself, was a

member of tho Railway Committee, but tho joinun - ation to bo derived from that appointment did no woigli 0110 straw with Kim. lie could eon tot: t him.se by simply moving the resolution. . • ' Mr. Kino said that this motion was more important than it at first lookod. No one voul(i 1 ,r 2" pared to arguo against tho principle of the In • was quite right to prohibit parties from taking '-on tracts under Government who were upon I way or any other Committee; but, at the sstmo time, l was necessary that tho travelling expenses of those attending'the committee should ho paid. Mr. Newman said thevo wis no reluctance on ttie tmrt of tho Government to give every information on the subject His Honor the Superintendent had thought it desirable that a Company should bo formed to developo the resources of a compnrative.y negloe i district. One great object of this Company won he to get coal and send it to OUigo lor tho exhibition of 186i>. But there were diniculties in the way, such as floods and other physical convulsions \vliic i had hitherto interfered with the working. W hen these wore overcome there was no doubt a Company could bo formed that would ho ready to pay a considerable royalty for the privilege of working the coal fields. Mr. ITemy Grahai»|liad much experience as a coal miner at homo, and ho was giving tho I rovinco the benefit of this experience, white drawing only the salary of a surveyor engaged in making a survey of thc'block of land on which these mines were situated. . Mr. Sheehan 1 spoke against the appointment, " Mr. WvSx said wo sliould no doubt have good reasons to approve of it. ... Mr. Wyxn wished to express an opinion on the subject, It was probable that no money would be voted for railway purposes. He had expressed no opinion on the question raised. It-was.wovfhy ol more 'consideration than had been yet given to it. lie hoped honourable members would agrco to the amendment, and that the question relative to the payment of members would be deferred. It sliouli. he discussed on the railway estimates a question that would probably give rise 'to a lengthened discussion. Mr. oadman said lie had been very much amused at the soit of triangular duel that had heen going on in the Council, but. it was perhapsdesn-ablotlm. it should not be bo placed on record in a blue hook. When a motion like this was placed on the paper, it was wonderful how Government tried to fence it. Ills sole object in placing this motion on the paper was to get an expression of opinion. Both tho amendment and the original motion were withdrawn.

KAWA KAWA COAL. MINES. Mr. Cooi,All,\N moved according, " That a respectful addicts be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to Jay before this < .mined information respecting the Kawa Kami Coal Jlmes , the appointment of Mr. Henry Graham as managci, i and amount T>f salaries ; tho number ot nien employed in Working the mines ; tho quantity of coal raised, quantity sold, or otherwise disposed ot ; on whose account are these mines worked ; and if on nccountof the Province, from what sourceistbo money expended derived." The Superintendent sjjrothcr-in-law was a most, ellicieut Inspector of thistles, and as his brotherhad been bred ill a coal mine there was no reasonto doubt lie must be a most efficient. Inspector of Coal Mines. But the Council had not vel been informed at whose expense those operations were conducted. The motion was carried in a show of hands. MESS AO us. JTesstujcs were brought down from His ITonor the Superintendent. Message Xo. 37 referred to a correspondi nee between the Colonial Secretary and the Steam Naviuation Company on the subject of putting steamers on between the diilerent ports of the Province. Ordered to be printed. Message No. .'SS ; a Return of Money expended on tho Great South Road ; Returns cnelo-ed : Message No. 39 ; Copy of Report from the Acting Engineer on tile necessity of providing accommodation for the recently arrived immigrants by the " Eagle Speed ; there were 13 among her passengers who were miners bv trade, s-peeiallv sent for, and who now having arrived have found themselves without a demand lor tlieir services.

Mr. NKwman paid he had noticed this application, because if Ihc Council 'agreed to the Kaiway Appropriation Hill, a field would lie immdiateiy found for employing much of this labour. Mr. Siikkiian called the attention of the Council to the necessitv of immediately providing some kinifroi labour for the immigrants who weir, now arriving every day. lle'liimself had to assist'every day families who were starving for want of worlw Message No. i! 0, referring to appointment of Benjamin Mcl.ean as Auditor under Auckland and Diury Bailway Act. Upon the reassembling of the Council. WATEIIWOHKS Al'l'ltOl'IUATIO.V 1t[1,1,. Upon the motion of Mr. Newman, the second reading of this bill was postponed till Tuesday next. ATjCKT.A-VD AST) DllU 11 IIAII.WAY. The ritoviNClAL Skckt.tauy moved, " That a respectful address be forwarded to the Superintendent requesting him to send down by message to this house, such proposals as will meet with the requirements of the Kailwav Commissioners in carrying on the railway works now under consideration." The hon. gentleman said that he felt sure the house would not expect much from him to show the desirability of carrying on the works in connexion with the " railway from Auckland to Prury. The object the Government, had was to laise the necessary sum by debenture, which was in excess of the amount already authorised, namely, .€IOO,OOO, voted under the Empowering Hill, and £5)0,000 authorized to be raised by debentures. The tender of Messrs. Higgins and Moomfield had he en accepted subject to the-sanction by the Council of the additional sum asked. He would remind the Council of the importance of this work. Upon it depended very much the future prosperity ot' the Province, and a means of employing labour. To its future usefulness there could, no denial indeed, no doubt, he believed had been entertained by any one on that point.

jVI r . Wynn said ho would move that the House should go into committee. He could not uiulersta d why the proposals should not he sent down to the House without the necessity of sending a message to the Superintendent. On the motion of Mr. Wy.v.v, Mi - . O'Neill was called to the (.'hair. Mr. Siiekhan thought this was only a trap. There had been in other Colonies railways constructed where the viaducts had cost more money than the lino itself; but in the course of construction repoits were drawn up. In this 'use theie had never been a single report. Then where was tho accommodation for the vast amount of labour that was coming into the maiket. People were induced to come here in expectation of work. Sir. Cadman hoped the hon.gentlemandid notmeau seriously to persist in his motion to report progress. Such a course would slave oil' the commencement of the undertaking for some days. There certainly was no fault to be found with the Commissioners. 'J'he whole of the line had been surveyed from beginning to end. A vast deal of work hud to be got through ; but the Commissioners could not control the elements. It was hoped that the first, soil would bo turned on tho first day of the present month. .The truth was that some improvements were made which entailed some additional expense. Curves were widened and gradients improved, aiul other difficulties surmounted which caused some delay and increased cost. It was possible and not wholly improbable that the work would be done for less than £1(13,000. That was just 13,000 over the sums authorised under the Empowering Act. and tho Debenture .Act. So important did he consider this subject, that he would have been pleased had the Superintendent accepted the tender. The estimate was as fair a one as ever was made out; so fair that, as he had said before, it was now without doubt what this great work could be done for. There was next the question, where was the money to come from ? 11c would state where it came from. In the first place, he was of opinion that, it should come out of the loan. Of that, lean there was Mill about £220,000 unappropriated. About .Ci t3,OUu had been appropriated ; £100,000 for the reversion, and .-£45,000 would be payable next yc-ir on debentures. Next he thought that the work should be finished before the debentures were \ised. li was not so easy to borrow on nil unfinished piece of »ork, or if it was borrowed it would only be, instead ot' at 0 per cent, perhaps at 8 or 0 percent, it was dillcrentboiTOwingfiOinafund thateouidnot he used immediately ; the fact of its not being used would enable them to get. it at a moderate rate of int erest when, however, the work was linished, they could borrow upon the completed woik, and the securitv would no doubt be considered sufficient to cover what would bo required. There was one matter for congratulation that it was the best lino as well as the Cheapest that could have been selected, for that is

stated in Mr. Weaver's report. lion) then was a "■cncrnl adinisfion that no hotter and no cheaper lino could have been taken. ITo thought it highly desirable that the necessary powers wero at once given that the work should he coimncnccd. Mr. Wv,\.N" said in consequence of the interesting and able statement ho had just heard, he would withdraw his motion that the chairman do report pro- < press. JTo had oxpttAcd however, such a statement from a very different quarter. Motion withdrawn. ,

Mr. 3Ci.no while he was desirous that work shouli bo uriclcTljikon, (bought, the remainder of the loin should be held sacred. Ho would inovo a rosoluliol 'that the Council authorise the whole .CG.'i,ooo. 3\rr. Ivoss said ho would oppose the taking of an; more uiou'ey out of the loan. Mr. Skukn* said, according to (ho hon. memboV' ftv Marsden, it would almost seem as if tlto figures wen fictitious. 15ut it was worthy of »otice that the figure! adopted by tho various engineers upon the iuost caro ful computation) were, so near, that there wa little fern- of the estimate being exceeded, lie though tbo Superintendent might have talccji this matter i: his own hands. There was considerable inconsisteu ties ill the expenditure of money. Sometimes then were thousands of pounds .spent upon somo incon siderablc project, mid then there was great punctilii in "cttins ih'o sanction of the Cour.cil for a Svorlc o tlio greatest importance and utility. It would havi been more to tlie honour of the Superintendent hai he taken this tender and set the contractors to work Ho thought tho mode of borrowing; the inuftoy \ya sound, and there was nothing to pr'V'ent the coinple tion of the work at tho time UVuic'r tlie speeiticatidn namely, 18 months (Voin the signing of'the contract Jlr." Cukkhi;Vi\n said that tho reason of tho addi tional '.'.'"At of £10,000 \vns tho increasing tratlie In the first a 00 pound rail had to he substituted fo a3O pound rail. The tender of Messrs. Higgins am lilomlieM was .£78,000, hut that sum might not b required. Then, again, tlie gradients were reduced The line could ho constructed lor .€120,000 if the; would accept of a j*rfcdicnt of ono in 30 instead o one in-10. These improvements entailed tho addi tional cost. ■ Mr. Caiu/rtox thought the object should tic not ti compote with the Great "Western, but to. adopt, i cheap and light line. Tho gradient"; in such a lin might be somewhat steeper, ia'cility ot access ant not speed was the great desideratum. Mr. Ciikksi-MaN :said that tho whole matter ha< been considered. Tho increased tratlic reijuirei engines of 12 and 15 tons, instead of H and 10 tons As'to (ho giadionts, it was found on full deliberal.ioi that the wear and tear of rolling stock \vould ho in proportion to tho steepness ot the gradient, w'lnch would entail considerable, expenditure upon, the

workings. Mr. Shkkhan said that 'from what, lie had heard his anxiety was to snppoit overv measure that would aid the prosecution of the work. "\Vhiit ho had said turned iipon the possible failure of tin; Government to fultil their promises to tho working population whom they had brought licro in the hope ol' getting employment. Ti' they were really sincere proceeding, ho would give them every support m his power. ■ Mr. Kino moved the followingresohit'dn : —" r _hat this committee recommend that an address be presented to his Honor 'requesting him to accept the tender adopted by the Railway Commissioners, and that ho is authorised to take steps to raise (lie required amount ot v C(>!i,ooo, m addition to the sum i;] 00,000, already noticed." Upon the motion of Mr. Slcccne tho Council then adjourned at 'J o'clock.