HOUSE OF COMMONS.

New Zealand Herald, Volume I, Issue 268, 21 September 1864, Page 5

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

NEW ZEALAND (GUARANTEE OF LOAN) BILL. On the motion for the second reading of this bill [July 1-I], ill'. A. .Mills moved its rejection, contending that all guarantees for loans to colonies were objectionable; but [.iiis rase of New Zealand was peculiarly so, as the money would be applied to foster the war which was going oil there, for the purpose of enabling the colonials to obtain land from the natives, although it vrouid uol be made applicable to those expenses for troops which would bo incurred by the Imperial Go- \ eminent, and which this country would bo called upon to pay. If, as was asserted, the colony was i:ourishing, why did it not go into the market and raise the loan lor itself? 11l fact the quei-tion in this rase was not one of this country's taxing a colony, bat of a colony taxing this country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, with reference to the linancial part of the question, he agreed with his hon. friend opposite (Mr. Mills) in the prini :ples he had laid down in self-reliance for the colonies. The question was not whether we should tax the colonics or the colonics should tax us, but he ii'ould go further and say that the colouies wore taxing us, and had been very largely taxing us for a considerable time. (Hear, hear.) The colony had.

Mi. first asked I'or a guarantee of £3,000,000 ; that ] roposed by I lie Government was £1,000,000, and it uas obviously the duty of the Imperial Government i:i no case to propose all Imperial guarantee unless it was convinced of the solvency of the colony and of i: s willingness and disposition to pay. As to that tiere could be 110 doubt whatsoever. Of course, a c.doiiv like JVew Zealand had considerable demands uoo.i it, and at nil times a great expenditure was necessary; but it was not circumstances of peace that had driven tiiem to the necessity of a loan. It was a v.iic in which they were engaged, 'l'he responsibility 01 that war could not be thrown upon the colonies, it had been approved by the Government at homo, and iiow did we stand with respcct to that war? We had rarely got a colony which defrayed any considerable portion of the expenditure of a woo, but here nearly a moiety more or less of the expenditure fell on the shoulders of the colony. Therefore, ho said, if the colonists were contributing, as they wore, many hundred thousands a year for the expenses of the war, that showed a considerable advance as compare 1 with f"rmer statements, which were that the mother country should bear all the charges of the -war. The two inducements the Government had to take part in this guarantee were —ill the first place, the repayment.they were to obtain for a large debt owing by the colony to this country ; and, in the second place, what he conceived to be yet more material vlian that, they were to obtain a great augmentation of the military charge upon the colonists, liio did not speuk of the repayment of the £500,000 merely in a lisual poiut of view, although it was desirable that sum should be in the hands of the Government ; but he spoke of it because he considered that an unsettled account between a colony and the mother country was a political evil, -that was material as far as it went; but he attached more importance to the remaining portion of the question, instead of a nominal contribution of £5 a head by the colonists lor the troops, they would contribute £10, which wus Slich a charge as would influence them in restraining their demand for troops for whom they liatl to pay so much. It was a step forward with regard to military expenditure even now w hen the war was raging. And with respect to the repa, incut of the loan ho could assure the House

securities could be given in tho best and most conclusive form. lie hoped, therefore, they would be almost unanimous as to the propriety of reading this bill ;i second time.

ji r. Whiteside asked for ail explanation of the theory of what was called the land question, or what was to be done with the laud of the natives.

.Yir. Koeljuek urged that the colonisation of New Zealand was simply an iuvasion, with the ultimate objc t of the extermination of tho natives. The Imperial Government interfered to prevent this, and to maiiuaiii an Knglish and native population together in the colony ; but this was an utter impossibility, and it must come that the latter should be exterminated. The responsibility rested, in fact, on the people of this country, and not on tho Government ; lor the former wore parties to the carrying out of the usual sjstem of colonising in the countries of the Crown, namely, one of extermination. The people of this country were bound to protect the colonists against the danger to which our imperial policy had subjected them. fair fl. Willoughby contended that the guaranteeing of loans like that proposed would render wars like that going on in iciv Zealand chronic. The revenue and expenditure of New Zealand were so nearly balanced that it aiforded no solid security of tho guarantee of this loan. iir. .Aytouu opposed the bill. tir S. .Norihcote complained that tho Government had not given tile House sutiicient information with regard to the future policy to be pursued towards Ne.v Zealand. He also asked what steps had been taken to sceure the payment from the colony for the maintenance of any .British troops that might be sent there. .Mr. Card well replied to the objections offered against the guarautee, and urged reasons why the proposal should be agreed to. He gave a short history of the policy pursued towards tho native race in .New Zealand, and showed what was the real origin of the present war, as stated by Governor Sir George Grey, namely, the murder of a British party by the chiet of the Waikutos, and a conspiracy of the

natives,' ami the plan proposed by Sir George for dealing with the forfeited lands, lie then explained, in detail, the arrangements entered into with the colony fcr the imperial guarantee of the loan. In considering the security, he gave particulars of i ae liiiances of the colony, which snowed that the ordinary revenue of the last linaneial year amounted to til,ooo, and the surplus to ;t'26'0,000, and that the estimated surplus of tne current year, the expenditure being larger than that of the preceding year, was .<J2S-I,UOU. Lastly, he exp'laiued tho conditions attached to the guarautee, including the sanction of the colonial legislature to tho contract upon which tin; arrangement was founded. ilr. Auderley thought that on the whole the proposition was one which the House might fairly sanction. The circumstances of the case were exceptional, and would not pledge the House to a recurrence of a similar policy. Moreover, the colony was perfectly solvent. Sir J. Trelawuy was not prepared to say that wo had got into such a bungle in Now Zealand that at length it had becomo desirable to resort to some slri'ii ,r measure to closc our transactions with that coliny. It'this were so, let it be done above hoard and iu a straightforward manner. i''or his own part he thought it.was her Majesty's ministers, and not the colonists, who were in fault, und ho held it was an undignified course on the part of the Government to make war against the whole native race, simply because one or two otlicers and a company of men had been led into an ambush and attacked. He sincerely hoped the House would not sanction the bill. ilf. J. 15. Smith said the reason the colony could not raise a loan in the market was, that they were uot"prepared to give the current rate ot interest. Ho would support tho amendment. Colonel Sykes said this measure was an attempt to strike out '• A new way to pay old debts." (Laughj tel.) We had already paid large sums to Now Zealand, and ho thouglit'it would be imprudent for this CJuntry to guarantee apy loan to that colony. -Mr. Whalley, amid general laughter, attributed the whole of tho diaisturs which had befallen our arms in New Zealand t.o the inlluenco of the lloman C. iholic clergy; but was called to order by Lord tStn.'luy, "\vlio pvoto-ieA against the introduction of : irrelevant matter into ilic debate. i Mr. C. Vurtoaeiw said that lie should decline to folow the lion, gentleman iu the pursuit of tho I Je.;uit—(laughter)—whom he found in every part of ! the world, and whom he now discovered in the forests I of New Zealand. (Laughter.) They might take his

-statements 'with Regard to 'Ca»fl.dtk na tho toeasure of -accuracy which "belonged to his statement with regard to •what 'was now "passing in New Zealand; for it was notorious that the Roman Catholic Church in Canada during 'therebellion there, so far from fomenting and promoting that rebellion, had been, on tho contrary, tho most valuable ally of the Imperial Go--rernmeiit on the side of loyalty and order. Tt was admitted on nil sides that <1 system of colonial government was objectionable—(hear, hear) —hut ho contended that the present caso had been shown to Tic an exceptional instanco. Mr. Cobden proceeded to say that what wo were -asked to do might be expressed in a few words. Wo had a debtor owing us £500,000, and ho said to us, " My credit is not very good in the city—(laughter) —but if you will endorse my hills for a million, by which J shall he enabled to discount in the city on your credit, I will pay the £500,000. (Hear, hoar.) He wonted to know what interest tho English people had in the matter? The right hon. gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies invited their generosity and kindness towards New Zealand ; but if wo had tinv generosity to spare, it was wanted hv our countrymen and taxpayers at home. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned member for Sheffield told them in his peculiar fashion what the object was. Ho said, We are bound by an irresistible necessity to exterminate the native population of Now Zealand." He said, moreover, thnt ho had told the House so twenty ■years ago, and he felt rather aggrieved than otlier--wise that, we had been so slow in the process of extermination—(hear, and laughter)—that, instead of n long, lingering agony, we ought to have given them a sharp pang and have done with them. lie wanted to know how the hon. and learned gentleman proposed to exterminate the Maoris. (Laughter.) Ho did not. give tho House the receipt. (Hear, hear.) He did not state whether he would do it by strychnine (laughter) or what other process he would use. (Hear, hear.) Ho thought the lion, and learned gentleman rather presumed upon his long carcrr of eccentricity in bavins advanced a doctrine which in a Christian assembly like ours was utterly out of place —(hear) —and which ought to have been delivered in a Parliament of Thugs. (Cheers.) Fvcrybody knew what the issue of the war was. It was the taking possession of the lands of the Maories. (Hear, hear.) "Wool was enormously liigli ; sheep pasturage was very profitable ; the neighbours of ilie Maories would be very glad to elbow them out, and take possession of their lands—(hear, hearl—but what interest had the Pnglish people in it ? We had parted with all sovereignty and jurisdiction over the land of New Zealand. If the British Parliament passed an act giving a few acres in the colony to an invalid soldier, the New Zealand legislature would be up in arms against, us for having infrinced on its rights ; nnd therefore what interest bad the people of England with the proceeding which the House was asked to sanction ? (Hear, hear.) It was in fact contrary to their interest. It was against trade ; for the debt on the cojpny should be paid out of customs duties, and customs duties restrained trade and commerce. (Hear, hear.) It was true that some impetus had been gi ren to the trade of the colony by the discovery of gold ; while. or- the other hand. the expenditure for the army had increased the value of the imports; but that was ft factitious value. With an iwreased amount of debt and charge for interest, it was just possible that increased duties micht be placed on the imports by the Kew Zealand legislature, and a direct interference with the trade of this counfrv be thereby established. A debt of £3,000.000 or f4.000.000 was no light matter for a population of 100.000 persons. He did not understand the stipulations they were to pet for tliis loan. The right hon. gentleman did not appear to have the power to pledce the !New Zealand legislature in any way ; and while £40 a head was to be paid for each soldier to be kept in that country, the cost of maintenance would amount to £120, so that there would be a clear loss of £80 per man. The time had come when they ought to take a different course on these colonial matters. Jf the hon. srontlemau went to a division, he should support his amendment, and he thanlced him for bringing it forward. Sir J. Hay expressed his intention of supporting the amendment, on the ground that the colonists themselves were to blame for the present war. inasmuch as they had revoked the act which prohibited the importation into the colony of arms and ammunition, lest the natives should become armed.

After some observations by Sir J. Ferguson, Lord Palmerston said that the doctrine of fome of the opponents of the bill would cast the colonics adrift. He was not prepared to concur in that doctrine. The colony was founded on the principle that the emigrants who went there should be protected. It was a thriving colony, and was increasing rapidly in wealth and in everything that constituted a prosperous colony. The real question was, did the House wish this unhappy war should be brought to a close, or did they wish the interests of the colonists should be sacrificed to the revolt- of those native tribes ? ITe could not believe that the House wished anything of the kind,for the soonrrthe war was brought to a close the better for all parties. There were 10,000 of the civil population of New Zealand under arms. That was a great expense both to the colony and tbemother country. As to thequestion of security, the customs'revenue amounted to £700,000 per ann um, and the sales of waste lands returned £1,300,000 annually : so that there was ample security for the loan. "Was'it because that security existed that they should load the colonists with additional interest, whir h they would have to pay if tliev went into the market without some substantial guarantee? He hoped the House would agree to the second reading of the bill. In reply to Major Stui t, Mr. Cardwell said he would endeavour to introduce clauses into the bill makinir the grantine of the guarantee by the commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury dependent upon the acceptance by the Assembly of New Zealand of the terms indicated inhis recent despatch. The House divided—Ayes, 92 ; noes, 55 ; majority in favour of the second reading 37. The bill was accordingly read the second time, and the committee fixed for Monday, July 18.

On the order of the day for going into committee on July 18,

Sir J. Trelawny said that unless ho received a satisfactory explanation of the policy which the Government intended to pursue in regard to this matter he should move that the bill be referred to a select committee.

General Peel wished to know what control the colonial government excrciscc! over the movements of the troops in New Zealand; and also how Ihe expense of the war in that country was to be defrayed ?

Mr. Cardwell replied that the control of the Queen's lorces in New Zealand was invested in the hands ol the Government and of the comrnander-in chief. llis views in l'egard to the land question wero embodied in a paper which were laid some time ago upon the table of the House. An intimation had readied him that a difference had arisen between the governor and liis ministers as to the advisability of detaining 183 prisoners who had been capturud, and he (Mr. Cardwell) had instructed the governor to act entirely on his own judgmentin that and similar cases. -Reference had been made to Governor Grey's policv, but it was certainly no part of his policy, nor of the policy adopted by Her Majesty's Government, to maintain a war for the purpose of oppressing the native race in New Zealand. In regard to present bill lie had stated upon a former occasion llic way in which it came to be proposed; but he would now briefly recapitulate the circumstances. Last year an oiler was made by the Duke of ewcastle to ask Parliament to'guarantee a loan of half a million to New Zealand. That loan "was to cover £200,000 for expenses incurred in the former war, and £200,000 for the compensation of settlers who had been losers by the former war, and .£IOO,OOO for the purposes of the colony. In the meantime, however, a iurther sum, arising from the circumstances of the present war, became payable by the colony to this country. The payment which the colony of New Zealand made to this country for the troops stationed there was regulated by arrangement, which would terminate upon the close of the pre ent year. That arrangement, which wtu; u most unsatisfactory one, was a nominal payment of i'.j p l;r head; and he said nominal, because under the arrangement a great amount of this payment found its way back to tho colony. It was part of the object of the prosent proposal to terminate that unsatisfactory arrangement, and substitute for it tho same system as existed in the Australian colony, namely, tho payment of £40 per man from the Ist January, 18G5. lie had on a former occasion shown that there was amplo security for the repayment of tho loan ; and considering that under the new arrangement the colony could no longer be indifferent to war, seeing that it was in a manner compelled to give bail against future wars, while its independence was at the same time secured ; and considering that the whole male population of Auckland wero bearing arms for the dclence of their homes, he trusted the hon. member for Tavistock

■would allow the House to go into committee on the hill. Major Hamilton trusted the right hon. gentleman would make tho necessary arrangements foi enabling the colony, with the help of tliis loan, to mako good the losses of the colonists in the present wai. Colonel Sykes was entirely opposed to the principle of guarantees, and as he considered there was no security in tho present case, he should support unv hon. member who opposed the hill. Although an advanced Liberal himself, he had no confidence 111 the security offered by the dcmocnitic government of Now Zealand. (Laughter.) Mr. Wli alley said ho had spent nearly a whole day in tlie Colonial-ofiico endeavouring to ascertain if Sir G. Grey had stated puhliclv in New Zealand that in investigating tho oricrin of the present war he found it arose from the machinations of the Roman Catholic priests; and, although there was somo vague idea that some such communication had been received, yet there was no distinct recollection of it. As ho had failed to sot a satisfactory explanation from thoTJmlerSecretary for the Colonics as to tho implication of tin's particular order of persons in the present 'war, he should nsk tho House to grant him a return of all communications which had been received from Sir George Grey relative to tho origin and progress of this rebellion.

Mr A. Mills referred to the great mischief which was likely to arise from the practice of allowing the irresponsible ministers of tho colonies to dictate to tho commander-in-chief in regard to the movement of troops, lie wished to know how such a practice was to be put, an end to hv the writing of any despatch. (Hear, hear.) The truth was. our troops were emplovcd in an unrighteous war. (Hear, hear.) It was not, waged for the protection of Auckland, hut to assist the aims of colonists, who were exceedingly desirous to get into their hands as much fertile land as possible. (Hear, hear.) That, statement was homo out by tho testimony of high anil impartial military authority, and when it was so it behoved the House of Commons to pay attention to it. Mr. W. Martin begged'to he allowed to read an extract from a letter which lie bad received from an intimate friend who had gone out to New Zealand somo fifteen months ago, and who was known to many members of the house, 'llie writer said: —

" They (the Mucins) wore a brave race, and it seems a great shame io tnlce their hind from them. "We all out hero consider tin. l varan unjust one—(hear, hear) —hut the cry of the colonists is still for land. Moreover, the t J oops are the makers ot Auckland, as the contractors are waking large fortunes out of them ; and so long as you are fool enough to supply tho needful, so long will they keep on tho war." (hear, hoar.) He then gave a deploi.'iblo account of the state of the natives, and expressed a belief that if the colonists were allowed to fight it out themselves the probability was that the Maoiis would have the hist of it. The Marquis of Hnrtirglon said that there did not appear to l>e at present any reason why the Government f-hould ask for a supplementary vote, inasmuch as a very liberal estimate had been taken of the probable sum which the -war would cost us. Tho estimate was based on the supposition that the war would last for six months after the ltt April. It wnsquito true that hostilities might cont line for a considei ably longer yniod ; hut honourable numbers should recollect that in war the chief ex pome was in the transport of supplies and stores to an anny in tho field, and that in this case that expenfo would to a considerable el tent be avoided, as General Cameron did not intend to prosecute further oj orations in the interior of the eountiv. The diain on the crmmissariat would therefore for tho future be much icducod, and the heavy expense hitherto incurred on that account lessened. Pir J. Hay bore testimony to the ability of Sir "Win. "Wiseman in this war, and alluded to the tribute which that cfliier had paid to Commander Hay and Captain ITamilton oftheKsk. The war appeared to him to ho ail unfoitunato one, and in every way unjustifiable. The House then divided—F<r the amendment, 22; against it, TO : nmjoity, 07.i The House then went into committee on this bill. On clause 1, Mr. Morrison moved the 1 eduction ofthesum guaranteed from .1-1,000,C00 to £f>('0,000. As these guarantees were likely to be brought foi ward in iuture, he thought it Tight that the House should make a duteimined stand apainst thrin. Mr. Cardwcll opposid the amendment. Mr. "White wishrd to know whether the colony intended to raise a further loan of £2,000,000 on the colonial credit. Mr. Cardwell replied that sucli was the intention of the colony. Mr. A. Mills could not vote for the amendment, bccan- e he did not admit tho advisability of giving any guarantee whatever. Mr. C. 3 r ortescuc maintained, on tho authority of Governor Sir George Grey, that this was a most just and necessary war, and strictly a war of self-defence. Ultimately .the amendment was negatived without a division, and the clause agreed to. Tho remaining clauses were agreed to, and the bill passed through committee. On the motion that the bill, as amended, be considered [July It)]. Mr. Ilenncssy said he should oppose the bill at every stage, and as the hour was too late (a quarter to one o'clock) to enter into discussion at present, he begged to move that the debate be adjourned. The House divided, when the number were—Ayes, 5: noes, 30; majority against the adjournment 25. The bill, as nmc-nded, was then considered, and the third reading appointed for the 21st. Upon the motion of the third reading of this hill [July 21], Mr. Hennessy moved as an. amendment that it he read a third time tlmt day month ; but on adivision. that proposition was negatived, by 70 to 32. The bill was read a third time and passed.