AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealander, Volume XVIII, Issue 1651, 12 February 1862, Page 4

AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY sth, 1862. MESSAGES. The minutes of Tuesday’s proceedings having been read and confirmed, the following messages were received from the Superintendent. No. 58, laying before the Council papers relating to public works in certain districts. Referred to the Public Works Committee. No. 59, copy of communications from Chas. Sanderson, C. E., pointing out the injury done to public works in the vicinity of Auckland, by the throwing of rubbish from adjoining farms. No. 60, estimate of the cost of a substantial bridge over the Tamaki at Panmure, in reply to Mr. J. Foley’s motion. Ordered to be considered on Thursday in Committee of the whole. PANMURE FERRY. Mr, BUCKLAND brought up the Report of the Panmure Ferry. 'lhe Committee recommend that the Executive make the necessary regulations for the management of the Panmure Ferry, and are of opinion that the present ferry at Panmure is insufficient for the traffic. They also think that regulations should bo made lor the management of all Provincial ferries, and that the nautical competency and moral character of applicants for the ferry service should be considered rather than the lowness of the tender. ESTIMATES. Mr. BROOKFIELD was happy to be able to inform the Council that at last they had some chance of getting the Estimates down. The necessary information had at length been received, some of it only on the previous morning, and he was in a position to say that the Estimates would be on the table by Friday (hear, hear). COROMANDEL GOLD FIELDS. Mr. BALL moved that Message No. 57, recommending to the consideration of the Council a suggestion of the Colonial Secretary’s, that the Province should render aid to prospecting parties, be considered in Committee of the whole on Thursday. Agreed to. THE AUDITORSHIP. Mr. CARLETON moved, “ That this Council hereby express their sense of the Superintendent’s discourtesy in not having made reply to, or even acknowledged the receipt of their addresses dated 24th and 28th January, concerning the nomination of an auditor.” He felt certain -that their proceedings in this matter would presently be the subject of much recrimination and mis-statement: he thought therefore that the minutes should contain an account of the whole proceedings, and this motion was to supply the last link. He had always thought the Council wrong in nominating Mr. Reid over again. Mr. BALL moved as an amendment, “ That any further debate on the question of the auditorship or the conduct of his Honor the Superintendent with reference to that subject is calculated only to foster ill feeling and obstruct the proper business of this Council.”

Mr. BUCKLAND would vote against both motion and amendment. The Council would have shown their good sense if they had let this subject alone. If they left their private piques outside of the Council chamber it would be the better for public business. The mover of this resolution might be entitled to assume the place of leader of a large section of this Council, but Englishmen would not acknowledge a leader that had not pluck.—[Mr. Carleton utterly disclaimed all title to the place.] Evidently, since he had been in the Council, the hofi. member had striven to place himself in the position of leader. That hon. member was generally consistent in being inconsistent, and had he voted in accordance with the principles he laid down, the result would have been different, but instead of voting he left the house on two divisions out of three. He (Mr. B.) would vote against the motion, ior spleen had more to do with it than political principle.—[Mr. Carlelon appealed to the Speaker to restrain the hon. member from imputing motives.] Mr. Buckland withdrew the expression. He did not think the Council came into this matter with clean hands. They had been paddling in dirty water themselves, and having persisted in a nomination after it was refused by the Superintendent they now stood on a par with him ; but if they passed the resolution they would have committed themselves to a far greater extent than the Superintendent. Mr. STEWART took exception to the statement that they had had their hands in dirty water, and defended the course pursued by the Council. Not only the hon. member for Newton but one or two members representing the Superintendent were absent at the second election Had they been in their places and voted against Mr. Hugh Reid, there would have been a majority for the other candidate. Mr. MARTIN considered that the Superintendent ought to have taken some notice of the second nomination made by the Council. He came into the Council with the intention of supporting the Superintendent, but he had always treated them with contempt, not only officially, but through the New Zealander, the articles in which had tended to cast ridicule on the Council as a Council and on its members. He ( Mr. M.) should therefore support the resolution. Mr. KING made a few remarks. Mr. DALDY supported the motion. Mr. BUSBY supported the motion. The amendment he thought was apart from the subject, and as to “ fostering ill feelings,” if hon. members gave way to them feelings he did not know what the consequences would bo (a laugh). Mr. WYNN was surprised that the Executive should endeavour to shelve this question by such an amendment, and he hoped they would withdraw it and take sense of the Council on the motion. They ought not to fear the result. He assured the member for Newton that he did not move his address the other day with the purpose of making any amends to the Superintendent, but merely to enable the Council to retrace their steps, lie should not support this motion, for he did not find any fault with the Superintendent's conduct. In persisting to thrust upon the Superintendent a person whom he had refused to sanction, they had done an unwise thing, and moreover insulted the Superintendent The discourtesy was equal on the part of the Council, and he was not sure that it was not their discourtesy that had provoked it in the Superintendent, lie objected to the allusion to ill feeling in the amendment. He could look at the Superintendent as a Superintendent without reference to John Williamson, and whatever he said in the Council against the Superintendent or the Executive had nothing to do with them in their private capacities, and nothing he said had anything to do with his private feelings at all. Ho hoped the Executive would withdraw the amendment, and they would obtain a majority on the main question —or at least not be in such a minority as they need be ashamed of. Mr. BROOKFIELD said he had not seen the amendment before Mr. Ball moved it, and therefore it was not an attempt on the part of his Honor’s Executive to shelve the question. He thought it was right the question should bo discussed and the opinion of the Council taken. If any insult or discourtesy had been offered, it was by those members who voted for the reappointment of Mr. Reid. The member for Newton had spoken very prominently against the re-appoint-aient of Mr. Reid, and had he had the pluck to stay and vote the result would have been different. [Mr. Carletox : Where were the Executive?] He admitted he had purposely avoided voting, but if Mr. Carleton, having taken so prominent part in the discussion, advised hon. members not to stultify themselves, and predicted that the Superintendent would take no notice of it, had stayed and voted, the result might have been different. Many other hon. members had said they did not expect any reply, and therefore

it did seem to him that the discourtesy was from the Council to the Superintendent, and not on the part of the latter.

Mr. FOLEY supported the motion. Mr. SKYRME supported the resolution. Mr. BALL wished to withdraw the amendment which he had brought forward, he said, on his personal responsibility. Mr. CARLETON refused to allow the amendment to be withdrawn, though if it were the wish of the Council he would consent to the withdrawal of ooth.

Mr. ROWE hoped both would be withdrawn. The Council had done -wrong in sending the address they did, and the Superintendent was right in not replying to it. When the Superintendent refused their first nomination, by pursuing a proper course they might have gained an advantage over the Superintendent and gained the constituencies in their favour, but they took a step which neutralized any such effect, and got them into a mess which this resolution was not likely to get them out of.

Mr. CARLETON having replied, the amendment was put and negatived unanimously. On the original motion the Council divided as follows :

Ayes, 14 —Messrs. Bateman, Busby, Carlelon, Daldy, Foley, George, Harrop, McGhee, Martin, Melvin, A. O’Neill, Rattray, Skyrme and Stewart. Noes, 12 —Messrs. Ball, Buckland, Brookfield, Cadman, Gruchy, Mackenzie, Ross, Rowe, Sheehan, Skeen, Wallace and Wynn. Mr. CARLETON then moved, that the Clerk be directed to make a copy of all such minutes of Council as relate to the nomination of an auditor ; also, of all the. Superintendent's messages on the same Subject, and that such copy be transmitted to the General Government for their information by Mr. Speaker. Carried by 1.7 to 11. south road contracts.

Mr. KING moved that the Report of the South Road Contracts Committee be adopted, and that an address be presented to the Superintendent transmitting a copy thereof. The Report recommended that arbiters should be appointed to decide upon the amount of compensation fairly due to Maurice McGuire, contractor for the repair of the Great South Road between Otahuhu and Macky’s corner, on account of the formation of the Camp at Otahuhu which had greatly increased the traffic on the road. Mr. FOLEY seconded the motion.

Mr. J. O’NEILL opposed it on the ground that a contract having been once made should he adhered to. Mr. MARTIN and Mr. WYNN supported the motion, as also did Mr. ROWE, who thought that the contract immediately north |of Otahuhu should have been included. The motion was agreed to. PENSIONER SETTLEMENTS. Mr. BROOKFIELD moved the adoption of the following Report of the Tensioner Settlements Committee:— “ The Select Committee appointed for the purpose of enquiring into that portion of his Honor’s speech referring to the establishment of small settlements of military colonists, report as follows : “ 1. That it is highly desirable to revive the system of introducing military and naval settlers into the Province of Auckland, which would go a great way towards meeting the present wants of the Province, by introducing labour, protection, and capital at a time when all are urgently required.

“ 2. That it is desirable that five acres of land be set apart for each pensioner arriving in the Province, and that the surrounding districts be reserved for the purpose of bringing them into the market at a time when the proceeds might reasonably be expected to pay off the liabilities attending the introduction of such colonists “ 3. That, in the opinion of this Committee, the Imperial Government should be invited to co-operate on equal terms with the Provincial Government in sending to this country military and naval settlers—that is, that the home authorities should pay all expenses contingent on conveying and landing the immigrants, and that the Provincial Government provide land and houses, as well as rations or employment for the first twelve months, in addition t > the conveying of the pensioners and their families to their several locations. “4. It is also the opinion of this Committee, that it is desirable that the framing the details for carrying the above resolutions into effect should be left to the Superintendent and his Executive Council, and that the Home Government be communicated with by the out-going mail, if possible. “ F. M. P. Beooki'ield, Chairman.” —After referring to former correspondence between the Superintendent and Mr. Stafford, late Colonial Secretary on this matter, and the benefits which this part of the Province had derived from the military settlements established in it, he advocated the advantage to be gained by the whole Province in the introduction of 1000 more men to be located in a similar way in different parts of the Province, including in the 1000 as suggested by the Committee a certain number of mcn-of-war’s men to be settled along the coast line to form a naval defence. In company with some other members he had had an interview with His Excellency, with whom it was well known the scheme was a favourite one, from whom they learned that the Home Government would not bear the whole expense, if any, but he would suggest to the Home Government that whatever sums were expended in bringing out the men should be guaranteed at the home rate of interest (3£ per cent.), to be repaid by the Province in 10 or 15 years as they thought most convenient. In order to enable the Province to bear the expense, the Committee thought it advisable to suggest that instead of carrying out the old principle of giving each pensioner an acre and a pre-emptive right over six to ten acres, each family should be at once settled on five acres, at the end of their term of service to be given them in full. But in the settlements along the coast line they thought a building lot should be at once given to each pensioner with five acres at some little distance from the township. They thought that the whole of the district around these settlements would become in ten years so immensely valuable as to enable the Province to pay off by the sale of it the original expense. It was very possible that the Home Government, being glad to get rid of their pensioners and settle them in such a place as New Zealand, and considering the unsettled state of the country, might co operate with the Province in paying all the expenses of conveying and landing them here, and then the Province would take them in hand, convey them to their locations, and find their rations or labour for the first twelve months. Mr. CADMAN seconded the adoption of the report. Mr. STEWART briefly supported the motion. Mr. DALDY was disappointed at the short explanation they had received from the Law Officer. He should object to bringing any more pensioners out on the old plan, with no definite supervision of expenditure. No term of age was specified in this Report, no terra of service, and nothing to prevent the men running out of the Province as soon as they liked. Altogether the Report was in too crude a state at present to receive the sanction of the House, without further explanation of the terms proposed. Mr. BUSBY opposed the Report. Mr. KING also opposed the Report, stating that the men would not bo able to get a living oft - five acres of land in remote country districts, nor tvould they be able to get labour 100 or 200 miles off Auckland. Air. FOLEY supported the motion, tie believed the pensioners were the best class of emigrants that had been introduced. He did not know what the Province would have done for labour without them. The details he thought were properly left to the Superintendent and Executive. Mr. CARLBTON said no member entertained a higher idea of the value the Pensioners had been to them than himself, but a principle was involved in this proposition, and when he got hold of a principle by the tail nothing could drag him from it. Ho moved the following amendment to Mr. Brookfield’s motion, “ That this Council refuses to entertain any proposition for the introduction of any more pensioners until the public faith is vindicated, and full justice done towards a large number of pensioners formerly introduced, many of whom were, without any fault of their own, deprived of the land secured to them under the Queen’s warrant.” (oh, oh ) Mr. WYNN would be sorry to vote against the Report, because it might be said they were condemning the principle of it, of which he was a cordial supporter, but the Report should have been more detailed. He should oppose the last clause, for he ■would not put into the Superintendent’s hands the power of entering into a loose contract with the Imperial Government. The Executive might have told them where they were going to settle these men He hoped, if the Report were adopted, some detailed plan would be submitted to the Council before they committed themselves in this large matter. Mr. J. O’NEILL said it had been thought desirable by the Committee to have a strong detachment on the banks of the Waikato and another at the head of the Kaipara river. A block of land was proposed to be reserved round each village, which would serve as a common for it till it gained strength. It was thought the sea coast would answer the purpose of the naval settlors better, as many of them would then turn to fishing, and the coasting trade; but it was not thought desirable to give the whole of a small township on the coast to a few. Looking at this question solely in a commercial point of view, he thought the object was a very desirable one, and would pay taem well. The framing of the derails of the scheme he thought should rest with the Superintendent and not with any private

member. He believed that the Home Government would be willing to co-operate with the Province. Mr. BUCKLAND could not see where these pensioners would find employers if they were fixed any distance from town, on the banks of the Waikato for instance. They could not imagine that the 40-acre men would be large employers ot labour. He further thought that there was no land on which to locate them. The Government was liable to demands for 90,000 acres of land, And only 40,000 or 50,000 Was open for selection, not 10,900 of Winch he believed Was available for settlement. WhiU reasonable hope could they have that after liquidating this debt they would have any land on which to locate the pensioners, and the capitalists who should purchase land near the villages and employ the pensioner labour, mode especially as°they were told the present Ministry intended to give up purchasing of land from the Natives ? He appreciated the Value of the scheme, but it could only be carried out in the centre of a large agricultural community in a fertile district. If the Government could show him that they were in possession of Urge tracts of land which they had reason to believe would be settled by those who Would give employment to these pensioners, he would support the scheme. He should vote against the amendment, for it was contrary to fact —and he believed it was not intended to be carried, but to produce its effect out of doors. The debate was then adjourned til! 'After the orders of the day. steaiA Postal communication. On the motion of Mr. BALL, Message No. 55 was read, enclosing letters addressed to the Superintendent by the Colonial Secretary and J. V. Hall of the Intercolonial Royal Mail Steam Company. Mr. BALL moved, that this Council Considers it desirable that Direct Steam Communication should be established between the City of Auckland and Sydney, and recommend the Superintendent to place on the Estimates a sum of £3OOO for the purpose. Mr. STEWART moved as an amendment, “ 1 hat this Council, while acknowledging the benefits of direct steam communication between the ports of Sydney and Auckland, consider tha. viewing the extensive demands on the Provincial funds for public works within the Province, it is inexpedient to vote £3OOO for this branch of the mail service.”

Mr. J. O’NEILL would certainly oppose the amendment. He considered that the Auckland merchants had a right to expect direct communication with the neighbouring colonies, and considering the subsidy paid they had as good a right to a direct steamer as the South. If this city were to remain the commercial capital, it must have direct steam with Sydney, and £3OOO would be well spent in securing it. Mr. BUSBY hoped the Council would consider well before they decided on this motion. The Province was now paying £II,OOO to provide steam communication for the Southern Provinces, and deriving no benefit from it itself but rather injury, and now it was proposed to vote £3OOO additional to place Auckland in as advantageous a position as the Southern Provinces had been at our expense all along. Then this proposal was brought down in connection with a letter from Mr, Hall, stating that he could do nothing for us before September, and why should they deprive the Province of the opportunity of making an advantageous bargain for itself before that time ? He would prefer voting £6OOO to have nothing to do with the General Government at all. Nelson and Wellington got their letters a week before Auckland, but they were not asked to pay an extra £3OOO Mr. CADMAN said it was to obv ate the injustice under which Auckland laboured that they were asked to vote this £3OOO. Auckland c uld not afford to be in any worse posh ion commercially than the other Provinces for the sake of £3OOO. He hoped the Council would pass this vote, direct steam communication with Sydney being absolutely necessary for the prosperity of the place. Mr. DALDY, while complaining that the Government had not given the Council some financial information before asking them for such a large vote, would support the address, taking it for granted there was sufficient money. When this was proposed three or four years ago by the General Government he opposed it, because Auckland then had to contribute nearly one half of the subsidy, and her revenue was £7OOO less than now. Now, however, the revenue of Otago would probably be larger than ours. And as Otago, besides paying a larger share to Government contract and thus diminishing our share, was also finding direct steam for itself, it was a fair calculation that Auckland was in a monetary condition now to afford this sum, not so much for the interest of the merchants as of the Government of the country, and for its general advancement. It was to complete the cha’n of communication which in a few months they hoped would surround this island. They had heard from the Government that there was to be a fortnightly communication with the South by the East Coast, half the benefit of which would be lost without the steamer going on to Sydney. This would benefit every person in the Province, increasing (he value of property and the revenue. He would support the vote, but not on the understanding that they were to be bound to Mr. Vine Hall, and the vote remain a dummy one until September. The Australasian Company at the present time had 19 steamers in these seas, most of which were very fine boats, and they were disposed he believed, to get a wedge into the New Zealand trade if they could, and would be glad to take up the communication between Auckland and Sydney for this subsidy, and a similar one voted by the General Assembly. Mr. BALL was understood to say that the vote would be expended in any way most advantageous to Auckland without being bound to the present Company. Mr. KING would vote in favour of the amendment. He had always been opposed to steam and always should be (a laugh) Mr. BALL read the Colonial Secretary’s letter which asked if this amount would be voted by the Council, according to the terms of previous negotiations. He had not intended by his motion to commit the-Council to any such negotiations. Mr. ROWE believed they would only be doing their duty by voting this sum. lie could not help thinking that certain Auckland members in the House of Representatives diil not stand clear in this matter, but believed they were guilty of a direlection from duty when the question of steam was discussed there. Without steam they could nqf hope to progress or maintain their position as the commercial capital. He would vote for the motion, and hoped they might depend on the General Government to get them direct communication ns speedily as possible. Mr. RATTRAY said the General Government were willing to give £3OOO towards subsidizinguwy competent steamer that could be obtained for £’6oi;o annually, independently of the present steam service altogether, and if the Company could have supplied ibis boat the matter would have been settled before now. With the offer of the General Government before them to pay another £3OOO, and considering their plan of affording fortnightly communication between the Provinces, both on the West and East sides in connection with the direct steam route to Sydney, it would be most unwise of the Council to reject the proposition made to them. They should pass this vote, hut entirely without connection with the Inter-colonial Company. Mr. Stewart’s amendment was then put, and the Council divided with the following result: Ayes, B—Messrs. Stewart, King, McGhee, Wallace, Harrop, Ross, George and A. O’Neill. Noes, 17—Messrs. Ball, Brookfield, Bateman, Cadman, Daldy, Foley, Gruchy, McKenzie, Martin, Melvin, J. O’Neill, Rattray, Rowe, Sheehan, Skeen, Skyrmc, and Wynn. Amendment lost. Mr. BALL’S motion was then put and agreed to. POLICE BILL. The Council went into Committee on the Municipal Police Bill, and after going through several clauses, reported progress, and the Council adjourned at ton minutes past 8 o’clock.

THURSDAY, FEBUARY 6tii, 1862. SEPARATION, Mr. BUSBY gave notice that he would postpone his motion on Separation till Friday, February 14th. THE EXECUTIVE. Mr. WYNN moved the following resolutions . “ 1. That this Council records its opinion with regret that the Government business brought forward for the consideration of the Council has hitherto been conducted in a manner highly unsatisfactory and not calculated to promote the satisfactory disposal thereof, or conducive to the interest of the Province. “2. That this Council, therefore, expresses its desire and hepe that before they are invited to the consideration of the financial state of the Province, preparatory to making the necessary provision for the expenses of the Government and for the prosecution of the public works of the Province, some statement will be made affording the Council that information and guidance so essentially necessary to enable the Council to arrive at just and satisfactory conclusions.” —A debate ensued, which extended over three hours and a half, and in which Messrs. Daldy, Ball, Busby, Lynch, Carleton, J. O’Neill, Buckland, May, Creagh, Brookfield, Skyrme, and Hoc, took part. Air. Wynn having replied, Mr. CARLETON moved the following amendment:—“ That it is inexpedient to raise the question of the duties of the Executive, until those duties shall have been more positively defined, and that the Provincial Government Act ought therefore to be amended.”

The amendment being put to the Council was negatived, and Mr. Wynn’s resolutions were ultimately carried. On the motion of Mr. WYNN, ordered that the above resolutions be transmitted to the Superintendent for his information. PanMcre PeßrVi Mr. BUCKLAND moved that the Report of the Select Committee on the Panmure Ferry be adopted, and that an address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent transmitting a copy thereof. Agreed to-. APPOINTMENT Ot“ DEPOT 1* AUDITOR. Mr. SPEAKER informed the Council that he had been furnished by the Law Officer with a warrant appointing Mr. B. McLean to be Deputy Auditor, and he desired to know if it Were the Will of thte Colincil he should sign the warrant. It appeared to him necessary to put the question to the Council to give the Warrant due validiivMr. BROOKFIELD moved that Mr. Speaker be authorized to sign the. warrant. Mr. BUSBY thought the Council should have attic to consider the question, the question liaVing been raised whether the appointment of a sub-auditor was legal unless consequent upon the appointment of an auditor. He. moved that the consideration of the question lie adjourned till Friday. Mr. CARLETON seconded Mr. Busby’s amendment. , . , Mr. CREAGH opposed the adjoilrnmeUt as a waste of time. The Audit Act-worth! not hear the construction referred to by Mr. Busby. Mi*. BROOKFIELD took the same view.

Mr. WYNN contended that they could not appoint a sub-auditor without also appointing an auditor. The, warrant must include both ; either they must appoint the two or the General Government must appoint the two. Mr. J. O’NEILL believed the Speaker could sign the warrant even if the Council said nay.

The question being put, the Council divided, and the motion for postponement was carried by l-l to 12. To\vx ItoAiius Hint,. Mr. BROOKFIELD, in moving the second reading of the To<vn Boards Bill, sai I its object was to vest in certain Commissioners to be elected from tittle to time, all powers for keeping proper order and condition the town of Auckland or any other toWn or village, Onethird of the inhabitants of which should petition to be brought under Hie Act. By the second clause the Superintendent was empowered to declare the limits of •the town for the purposes of the Aet, without waiting to receive the petition. This was to avoid losing the length of time required to get the Signdtutbs of so many of the inhabitants of Aiickland, and enable the Act to come into (Operation at once. Certain qualifications Were made necessary for voters for the election of the Commissioners. Powers were given to this Board to rate the City, not according to a frontage rate, but the properties were to be assessed and the rates laid at so much in the pound on the assessment. Power was also given to the Board to lay special rates for particular purposes as to them might seem most advisable. In the absence of owners, occupiers were to pay the rates. Unpaid rates to be recovered in a summary way, and if unpaid for four years, a portion of the property must be sold. Power was also given the Board to borrow and to make bye-laws. This had been pressed upon him, but it was very doubtful whether the Council, having only delegated powers from the General Assembly in this matter, could delegate them again. He had also, to a certain extent, incorporated the Municipal Police Act, if it should be passed by the Council. Powers were given to establish markets, and (under the provisions of the Diversion of Roads Act), to stop up streets, purchase private lands when required for new streets, and lay out new streets not less than a certain width. The Board had also power to borrow on Debentures and construct Waterworks if they liked, tints relieving the Cotlncil Of a bugbear that had so much troubled them. Power was given also to fix and carry out street-levels, make special improvements on the application of a certain number of rate-payers, and make certain injuries to property liable to fine, prevent cattle wandering in the streets, and so on. In preparing the Bill he had had the valuable precedent of one which had been in force in Nelson since 1858, and worked remarkable well there. He believed there were few members who would not concur in the general propriety < f such an Act. No doubt it would require amendment, and ii any amendments were proposed in Committee not objectionable in point of law, he would have 110 hesitation in agreeing to them. Mr. BUSBY laid one or two objections to the Bill. In the first place it was not defined what was to be a town or village. Tiic second objection was one of principle, which the Council should not give up. It gave the Superintendent power, on the application of one-third of the inhabitants of any town or village, to constitute a Boarl, ilms giving a minority, with the assistance of the Superintendent, power over the majority. ft ought to he two-thirds instead of one-third. Also, he thought the usual practice was that the parties concerned should agree as to what should constitute the town, village or district, and not leave it to the Superintendent. Mr. J. O’NEILL thought the people of Auckland did not want such a Bill as this. They wanted a Council that would be respected and be able to carry out something. They wanted what this Council could not give—a Corporation.

Mr. CARLETON would not oppose the measure. Mr. DALDY regarded the Bill as a step in the right direction, and hoped she Council would receive it and consider it well, even if they threw it out afterwards. As it stood, the Bill was a very defective one. It provided nothing to start the Board with. In his opinion they must give the City i's licenses and other revenues, and the money arising from the City trusts. Whatever kind of Board they created, they wanted men in it who had principles and ability to manage the affairs of the town, and they must pay them as directors of public companies were paid. Mr. ROWE supported the second reading. He looked forward to the time when we should get rid of some of our superfluous Government, get rid either of the General Government or the Provincial, and it was necessary to shape our institutions with a view to that end. A great deal of the success of such a Board as this must depend on ihe way it was launched into being. They must make it as respectable as possible and give it as much poweras necessary, so as to induce their best men to go into it, and consider it an honor. It would be folly to make such a board unless the revenues of the City were handed over to it. He would endeavour to improve the Bill in Committee, and if it should be shown that they could not confer the necessary powers he would join with those who desired to go to the General Assembly for them. Mr. WYNN thought there were provisions in the very principle of the Bill which the Council might have no power to give a Local Board. He would not oppose the second reading if pressed, but if not amended to his satisfaction would endeavour to throw it out on the third reading. Mr. CADMAN approved of the Bill but did not think it could be carried out by a mere Board of Commissioners. A Corporation was required to work it or it would fail. Mr. Wynn stated that he did not think such large powers could be conferred by this Council, but Mr. Whitaker had declared that the old Town Council Bill was legal. The old Town Council failed, not because it had to resort to taxation before it fairly got upon its legs, and this Bill had the same fault. The Board should have the City Endowments and 40 or 50 acres of land in the neighbourhood as well. Mr. SHEEHAN opposed the Bill. He did not believe the Government ought to levy rates on property where no improvements had been made, streets should be made first, and then rates levied to keep them in repair. Mr. CREAGH said there were many serious objections to the Bill, but if it were allowed to go into Committee it might be advantageously amended. It would be perfectly useless unless the Board were made entirely independent of the Government. Mr. LYNCH opposed the second reading. Mr. CHEESEMAN supported the second reading, considering the Bill as a step in the right direction. Mr. BUCCLAND supported the Bill. The Board should have large powers and if they could not give them they must get the General Assembly to do it. He approved of the plan of rating according to assessment, and advocated the adoption of a system of plurality of votes. Mr. SKYRME supported the second reading. Mr. FOLEY opposed the Bill. Mr. BROOKFIELD having briefly replied, the Bill was read a second time without opposition, and ordered to be considered in Committee on Friday. MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT. Mr. CARLETON moved the postponement of the rest of the business till Friday. Motion negatived by 12 to 8. LICENSING HILL. The Council went into Committee on the Licensing Bill, on the consideration of which they remained till a late hour. FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 7th, 1862. PETITION. Mr. WYNN presented a petition from J. Maude, of Panmure, asking compensation on account of a Road Contract taken by him to make a road, having been broken off btlbre the -Work was cbaqlleictl.

Petition received and referred to the Private Grievance Comurttee. REPORT^ Mr. DALDY bought tip the second interim Report Of the Finance Committee: Ordered to be printed. SiessageS. , Tito following Messages were recfeiVed froth the Superintendent ; . No. 61. Transmitting copy of a letter with enclosures froth the Colonial Secretary, detailing the steps taken to establish ferries under thb control of the General Government, oil the Waikato River, between Auckland and Wliainghroa; and southwards to the limits of the ProVihch; ...... No. 82. Enclosing the Appropriatioii Act and Estimates for the current year. Bill read a first time, ordered to be printed and to bei read a second time on Thursday next. No. 63. Copy of a letter frpm the Colonial Secretary, with ericlosiirbs ftoiii thb Military Ahthotitibs} relative to the dilapidated state of the midges oh the Great South Road, between Otaliuliu and Drury, desiring that they may be repaired and kept in a serviceable state for the future.

Mr. BUCKLAND inquired if the Government were going to ask them for a sufficient stint of ihqney to put the .bridges in repair! , . ; , . ■ . Mr. BRQPKFIELD sdi'd He had no ihstructibhs to 'do sol Air. fiUCKLAND moved that the Message be taken into consideration immediately. Agreed to. Mr. WYNN tn-.ved, That the Superintendent be authorized to expend any sum not exceeding £8 ), to put these bridges in a state of repair. The following amendment of Mr. DADDY’S was ultimately adopted :—“ That this Council is prepared to authorize the expenditure of such sums of money as His Honor the Superintendent may find it requisite to expend in keeping the bridges 011 the South Road in repair, till the Appropriation Act is passed,” Mr. KING moved, That an address be presented to His Honor the Superintendent, respectfully requesting him to place on the Estimates the sum of £SO, as compensation to John Hardy for the loss of his cottage and acre of land at Howick,

Mr. BROOKFIELD thought that before voting this, the claim should be fully investigated, and moved that it be referred to the Private Grievance Committee. Mr. BUSBY supported the motion, and Mr. WYNN the amendment. On tlie question bbiilg pfit, the original motion was cidriie'd. MESSAGE. Message No. 64 was received from the Superintendent, laying before the Council copy of a Memorandum by C. Heaphy, Provincial Land Surveyor, relating to the preliminary survey of the proposed tramway to Drury, lor which it is stated £SOO would be requisite. TOLLS. Mr. KING moved. That an address be presented to His Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to employ persons to ascertain the amount of traffic on the undermentioned lines of road, and forward to the Council with as little delay as possible; the returns to embrace seven successive days’ traffic, and to distinguish, in separate columns, whether saddle horses, drays, vehicles, cattle, sheep, or pigs, &c, tloAttSi Auckland to 0-ahuhu, “ Newmarket and Epsom, “ Remucra, “ Panmure, “ Onehunga* “ Whalt, Panmure to Howick, Otahuhu to Papakura. Separate fetiffnS to he mdcle tff the trafhc of the Military and Commissariat transport. —His object was to show that there was sufficient traffic on these roads to support tolls, and which plan he thought the Government ought to adopt, to pay the expenses of repairing roads. Mr. BALL considering the system of tolls not an economical way for keeping up roads, moved as an amendment, that the Council consider what would be the most economical way of raising money r for the support of roads. A discussion then took place, Mr. Brookfield, Mr. Buckland, and Mr. Creagh expressing themselves decidedly against the idea of establishing tolls and toll bars in this country. The amendment being objected to as opening too wide a question for the present discussion, was withdrawn, and the original motion, with a view to test the amount of traffic on the several lines of road, was carried by 14 to 12.

UNSURVEYED LAND. Mr. SKEEN moved, That an address be presented to His Honor the Superintendent, requesting that a statement he furnished to this Council shewing the amount of unsurveyed laud at present in the hands of the Provincial Government, other than that included in the 49,650 acres as surveyed lands. —A return he said had been recently sent down, and much quoted, giving the amount of land surveyed, as only 49.650, much of which was said to be only the refuse of many blocks, and probably either bad land or in an awkward position. Such a statement circulated through the Province and at home, w r ould have an injurious effect on the 40 acre system. But whether surveyed or not, there must be a very large amount of land in the hands of the Provincial Government; it had been rumoured at 250,000 acres, and he should be glad to be informed of that officially, (hear, hear). Mr. CREAGH seconded the motion, and would like to have distinguished how much was worth having. Mr. ROWE did not think these perpetual allusions to the character of the lands of the Province were productive of any good. If the lands were so had as some members wished to make out, the sooner they all packed off somewhere else the better (hear). There were poor lands in the Province, he knew, but not such a proportion of utterly worthless as was stated. This return would he a useful one, but he should like to know where the lands referred to were situated. Mr. STEWART moved the addition of the words, “ also the various districts of the Province in which the same lands are situated, accompanied with such information as can readily he given regarding the quality of the land.”

Mr. SKEEN accepted the amendment. Mr. MAY made a few observations, and was followed by Mr. CADMAN, who denied that there were 90,000 acres owing by the Government upon land orders not as yet exercised. The most of the holders of the land orders representing that amount, had left the colony, and the actual amount of land owing did not exceed 20,000 acres. He had also been informed at the Land Office, that the greater part of the 49,650 acres already surveyed was good, and that the Government were besides in possession of more than 300,000 acres. He protested against the continual outcry that the land was worth nothing, while at the same time they were inviting people here, and alluded to the fact that the position now held by the majority of the members then present was gained from the soil, which it now suited some persons to decry. Mr. DALDY said" the last speaker was bound to move for a return to substantiate the correctness of the large statements he had made. Mr. SKEEN in replying, referred to the difficulty which lay in the way of people becoming acquainted with the character of land in the interior of blocks, that, next to creeks and rivers being generally bad. For this difficulty, the Council was partly in fault in not providing roadways into the blocks. Motion as amended agreed to. SOUTH ROAD CONTRACTS. Mr. ROWE moved that the letters of James Gallagher, road contractor, brought to the notice of this Council by His Honour’s Message No. 30, be referred to the PrivateT Grievance Committee. This was a claim similar to that of Mr. McGuire, for compensation on account of the extra traffic on the South Road, occasioned by the establishment of the camp at Otahuhu. Motion agreed to. LEAVE OF ABSENCE, Leave of c.bsence for a fortnight was granted to Mr. G. S. Graham. THE DRURY RAILWAY. On motion of Mr. Buckland, the Council proceeded to consider Message 64. Mr. Buckland moved, “ That this Council is prepared to authorize the expenditure of such sums of money as His Honor the Superintendent may find requisite to defray the cost of preparing plans and surveys of the proposed railroad from Drury to Auckland, such sura not to exceed £SOO. Mr. J. O’Neill moved, as an amendment, “That if the contemplated work be thought one which ought to be taken up by the Government, the Superintendent direct the Provincial Surveyor to perform that duty.” Mr. BUSBY seconded the amendment. Question put on the amendment, and negatived. Original motion agreed to. APPOINTMENT OF DEPUTY AUDITOR. The adjourned debate on the question that the Speaker be authorized to sign the warrant, was continued at great length. Mr. CARLETON noved and Mr. Crcagh seconded the following amendment: “ That this Council cannot authorize, the Speaker to perform any function which

is required of him by law, and that a motion purported to authorize the Speaker to appoint, by warrant, under his hand, a person duly nominated to be Deputy Auditor, would be of itself of none effect, and would imply that the Council, by negatiring the motion to authorize, has power to inhibit the Speaker from performing the duty imposed on him by Section 3 of the Audit Act.” This being put to the Council, was affitmed on the following division:— , Ayes 1?: Messrs. King, Stymie, Foley, CreUgbj Ball, Cadman, Sheehatn, Carleton, J. O’Neill, Daldy, Ross, Brookfield, Rowe; May, Cheeseman, Melvin, and Ndcs 10; Messrs. George; Busby, liattrhy; Wallafie; Haifopi, Bllckland, Stewart, fckebhj ana Mackenzie. ■ ; • The SPEAKER said this resolution Ibft his position perfectly clear, laying down the principle that he was bound to carryout the law, without requiring a vote of the Council; a duty whifch he Would not othfcrwisb have undertaken, for he believed it to be the bbsiricss of the Speaker of any fcouncll io obby its oi-dbi-s; rather than any extraneous power whatever, and bear the consequences. The Council having nbw affirmed the law, he was obliged to them for it. PENSIONERS’ SETTLEMENT—ADJOtBNED DEfiAtEi Mr. CADMAN said that before ( thp Speaker .pul the cjuestion hb wished to say a fbw words. The lion, gentleman the member for Newton (Mr. Carleton) had placed a singular amendment before the Council, and just such an one as his hon. friend the member for the City West, Mr. O’Neill, had very properly characterised as “ bosh and bunkum.” Ho (Mr. Cadman) looked upon it as sheer clap-trap. No faith had been broken with the Pensioners by the Provincial Council; neither this Council nor the Superintendent had made any arrangements with the Home Government for sending out the pensioners to New Zealand: it was the Colonial Government—not the Province of Auckland. If, therefore, there had been cases of hardship and oppression, they would lie at the doors of the Colonial Government, the Home Government, and the Horse Guards, and were not chargeable on the Provincial Government. He (Mr. Cadirtan) would utterly repudiate the charge. If the Council should pass these resolutions and the Province should induce pensioners to come out, then if they the, Provincial Government, did not keep their agreement with them, they would be liable for the consequences, as it will then be entirely a Provincial matter. It must not, however, bb charged upon this Council now, that this Province IS responsible for thb condufct of tlib Hbrsb Guards add their officers. His hon. friend the member for Raglan; Mr; Buckland, had given as his reason for opposing the introduction of pensioners, that there was no land, and stated that there were not 5,000 acres of good land out of the 49,000 acres advertised as surveyed land, and had attempted to lead the Council to believe that the Provincial Government have very little more land at their disposal. He was astonished that his hon. friend should make such rash statements. He (Mr. C.) had asserted before and would assert again that the Provincial Government have over 250,000 acres of land at their disposal, and if Mr. Buckland would take the trouble to go to the Waste Lands’ Office he would find that statement to be correct. He had himself gone to the Waste Lands’ Office that morning, and in ten minutes had found that the Provincial Government had at their disposal 380,912 acres. [An hon. member: “In patches.”]) Yes, and they informed him very good Ittml too; yes; in patches, ns the hon. member says; and the first patch that he saw was 68,000 acres; the next, 30,000, 29.000, 15,000, 18,000, 35,000, 20,000, 13,000 12,000, 10.000, 8000, and so on, and that in a few minutes hb was enabled to make up over 380,000 acres. What the actual amount of land the Provincial Government might have at their disposal he was unable to say, but it struck him that there was enough here to locate a few companies of pensioners, and he hoped he hdd shown that there was no want of land for this putpose. The pensioners were, in his opinion, the makers of the Mangarei district, of Otahuhu, of Onehunga, and Panmure, and so they would be the makers of other districts where they might happen to be located. [An hen. member: What about Howick?] Well, what about Howick? There were green fields in Howick notwithstanding the bad land. No doubt the want of a bridge across the Tamaki was a drawback to that settlement. He was quite aware that produce could be brought to market cheaper 50 miles by water carriage than it could be 10 miles by land, but thefe was another reason why Howick was not so successful as the other settlements. That great spirit of discontent that had been got up amongst the men, and is still kept up to this day, was one great cause. They were told by designing persons that they would starve in Howick, and it was no use for them to work their lands —that it was time and labour thrown away, precisely the same thing that our forty-acre men are told now—the men were prejudiced before they went on their land, and it remains to this day. He hoped that they would avoid the errors of the old system, having had experience, and as a beginning we propose to give them five acres instead of one, and this with a cottage will enable them in a short time to become perfectly independent. He believed the pensioners as good emigrants as any that come here ; they are as hardworking and as thrifty settlers, and got on as well as any other portion of the community. Should some of these men be located on the edge of these forests that “ meet you full butt,” as his hon. friend Mr. Skeen expressed it, it would not be a very great misfortune. Thank God we have forests ! These men soon fall into the way of splitting firewood, posts and rails, and sawing timber for the Auckland market; and nothing could be better for the men than to locate them where those resources are abundant and available. If the Council rejects this Report it will do a great and grievous wrong to this Province. Mr. J. FOLEY advocated the scheme. He believed there was plenty of good land in the province, though not so much as Mr. Cadman talked about; and, by the time these pensioners could he got out, the Government would take steps to secure sufficient good land to settle them on. As for the capital that was to give them employment, it would follow wherever labour was located. By 1000 pensioners, receiving Is. per day, £17,000 at least would be brought into the country yearly. Mr* STEWARD briefly supported the motion. Mr. MAY opposed the motion. Immigration was coming in fast at the present time, and they should not give more for military settlers than they could get civilians for. The Government could not build these men houses, and support them a year for £7 10s., which it refused for assisted passages. Mr. ROWE spoke in favour of the report. Mr. BROOKFIELD said full justice had been done to the old pensioners, for they would find in the New Zealand Statute Book, 1861, an Act enabling all these men to come, within a certain time, and have the whole of their claims investigated, and title granted. He believed no men had been treated better than the pensioners in this province. (Hear.) Mr. Busby did not believe a living could be got out of five acres; but he knew many who had made a small fortune out of one acre. Mr. King had calculated they would have to pay £72,000 in the first twelve months, but the Government was not so insane as to have 1000 over in one twelvemonth ; they desired to have the men available for twenty years and upwards. Mr. King had reckoned on £4O for every house; but one hon. member had told him he would make them all tor £2O each, and turn a pretty penny by them. They could not give estimates of the cost of the scheme, till after communicating with the Home Government; and as to localities, the opinion of the General Government must be taken upon them, (hear), and Sir George Grey had, at the time, before him a map of the proposed localities, for him and the Council to decide upon. Mr. Carleton’s amendment having been negatived, Clauses 1 and 2 of the report were put and carried. In Clause 3, Mr. WYNN moved that all the words after “ settler,” be struck out, so that they might not pledge themselves to an undue share of the expense. Negatived, after some discussion, by 14 to 7. In Clause 4, Mr. DALDY moved" the insertion of the words, “ and estimates” after the word “ details,” in the first line, and after the word “ Council,” in the last line, the words, “ to be submitted to the Council for their approval.” Amendment agreed to. Also, on the motion of Mr. WYNN, the words. “ as soon as possible” were inserted, in lieu of the words “ by the outgoing mail if possible,” The Report, as passed, was ordered to be transmitted to the Superintendent. ADJOURNMENT. Mr. BROOKFIELD moved the postponement of the remaining business till next sitting day. This was the last night of the mail, and he and some other members had a great deal of writing to do. Mr. DALDY seconded the motion. Mr. WYNN protested against it. If it were the wish of the House he would not oppose it; but he hoped they should hear no more taunts for not proceeding to business, it being the Government who delayed it. On the question being put, tie Speaker decided in favour of the motion, when a division was called for which resulted in the motion being negatived by 10 to 9. The Council then went into Committee on the Municipal Police Bill, and Mr. Cadman called the Chairman's attention to the fact that there was not a quorum in the House, which, on counting, was ascertained to be the case, only nine members being present. The Council was therefore adjourned by the Speaker for want of a quorum.