HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealander, Volume XVII, Issue 1595, 31 July 1861, Page 5

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

WEDNESDAY, JULY 24m, 1801 The SPEAKER rook the Chair at 5 o’clock PRIVATE BUSINESS.

'flic SPEAKER called the attention of the House to the fact that be b id had private business placed first on the Order Paper m accordance with the practice of (lie House of Commons, which always went through all private business before proceeding to public Petitions and Notices of Motion, DUN MOUNTAIN RAILWAY BILL.

On the motion of Mr. DOMETT the House went into Commiftec on this Bill, which was reported by the. Chairman without amendment ; read a third time and passed, and ordered to he taken to the Legislative Council to pray their concurrence therein.

PAPERS

Mr. MAMTELL laid on the table copies of letters addressed to the Governor hy Wircmu Tamihana Tarapipipi and Wircmu Muihi Tc Rangikahekc ; also, copies of certain private letters addressed hy Wircmu Math) To Rangikahekc, Tawarl Kin), Wetlm Tc Ran, and Wircmu Tamihana Tarapipipi, to Messrs. Fox and Dillon Bell.

EUROPEANS SUING IN THE KING’S RUNANGA.

Mr. WELLS asked the Attorney-General, If the Government have received information of the fact that several Europeans at Otaki and elsewhere have summoned natives to the King’s Rnuanga for debt; and if so, what action lie intends to take in the matter. He (Mr. Wells) asked the question from having seen a newspaper paragraph stating that a Native Court was established at Otaki, and that Europeans had taken advantage of it to sue natives for debt. He had been informed that this was not the only instance ; and believing it was inimical to the supremacy of the Crown, and might interfere severely with u peaceful settlement of the Native question, he wished to know what action the Government would take with respect to it.

Mr. FOX said that while the iatc Government was in office a letter had been received from the Resident Magistrate at Wellington, calling attention to the fact that persons named Eager and Wcstcott had sued natives in the Native Rnnanga at Otaki. As far as he was aware this was the only instance which had been reported to the Government, though he had seen a report in the newspapers of a case occurring in the Rangitiki district, where a white man was summoned by a native for killing a bullock, an award was made and submitted to, fees being charged on the same scale as in the Resident Magistrate’s Court. The latter part of the hon. member’s question involved many nice ] oints of law and of expediency. The offence might be interpreted to be what lawyers called “ high misprison;” and though he committed himself to no opinion on it, be was rather inclined to think it was an offence against the prerogative of the Crown. But on the other hand it might be considered merely as voluntary action of the parties concerned, which might he resisted or derided at pleasure, and in that case would not be an indictable offence, But if it were indictable, it was not the intention of the Government ill this case to put the law in force, for they considered it inexpedient to do so on many accounts. First, the place where this occurred (Otaki) had been left lattcrlv in a state of absolute and entire neglect as to anv tribunal to which persons desirous to sue for debt might appeal. There was not an ordinary Justice of Fence within forty miles on one side and twenty on the other, not a Resident Magistrate within sixty miles on one side and fifty on the other. Therefore if parties were so foolish and indiscreet as to take their causes to the Native Court, it would be very harsh for the Government, having so neglected the district, to enter a prosecution against them. Secondly, by so doing, the conduct of the Government would lie inconsistent, they having some three or four months ago winked at the' erection of a flagstaff bearing the King’s flag, at Otaki. In the third place, if Government took any steps in this ease, they must proceed against all the Native Courts in the Island, whether resorted to by Europeans or not, which would be impossible. The only way of getting rid of Maori Courts would be to get*rid of the obnoxious part of the King Movement and take advantage if these Courts, which were a most admirable feature in the present state of the native mind, and work them in connection with British Institutions. ILLEG A!i EX BE N1 )IT UR E. Mr. CAREETON moved, “ That there be laid on the table a Return of the amount of Expenditure not previously authorized by Appropriation Act, incurred by the General Government during the period commencing on July Ist, 'IBSC, and ended September doth, 1860; also a Return of the amount of Expenditure, not previously authorized by Appropriation Act, of tbe several Provincial Governments for the same periods, or up to the latest date at which such Return can be furnished.” A return of the same nature had been moved for last session, but the Return when brought up was exceedingly erroneous, as it failed to contain expenditure which was afterwards authorized, while, be was of decided opinion that all expediture not previously authorized was illegal, and could not be legalized by a Gill of Under that interpretation an enormous amount of money would be found to be illegally spent, which be ‘wished to obtain a Return of, us it would throw light on the Bills introduced by the late Government and the present. Ho had copied the words of the former motion, hut substituting “ not previously authorized” for the word “ unauthorized.”

Mr. RICHMOND seconded the motion, and remarked that the Return should now he made to contain expenditure authorized by the Legislature during the currency of the financial year, as last session, when expenditure was going on while the Estimates were passing through the House. Dr. FEATHERSTON was aware the Return laid on the table was very inaccurate. There was one very gross inaccuracy, the omission of the unauthorized expenditure of the General Government for a period of eleven months. The return should bo prepared as speedily as possible, but the Returns from the Provincial Governments could not be obtained this session. Mr. STAFFORD said the instance referred to was entirely overlooked in the compilation of the Return. He then referred to the expenditure mentioned by Mr. Richmond, and suggested that the motion should be made to include expenditure before the passing of the Appropriation Act, which should be placed in a separate column. Mr. CARLETON found it impossible to make the amendment suggested, but the Provincial Legislatures might volunteer as much additional inhumation as they chose. He would leave the motion as it stood.— Question put and agreed to. PROVINCIAL AUDIT BILL.

Mr FOX, on moving for leave to bring in a Hill to provide for the Audit of the Accounts of the Provincial Governments, said he should not at present go into iho subject matter of the Bill. There were Bills having the same object now before the House, intioduced by the late Government,and he would propose they should hr considered together to-morrow. Leave granted, hill brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be printed. Mr. FOX moved that it be read a second time tomorrow. Mr. STAFFORD thought they should have more time to consider the Bill, which was not yet in their hands. He proposed Friday. Air. FOX assented. Bill ordered to be read a second time on Friday next. MESSAGES FROM HIS EXCELLENCY. Message No. 9 was received from tlu* Governor, transmitting the Estimates for the year ending June 30th, 1802. Ordered to be considered in Committee of Supply. Also Message No. 10, transmitting Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure on account of the year ended June 3Uth, 18GL

Ordered to be considered in Committee of Supply. AUDIT ACT, 1858, AMENDMENT BILL.

Mr. FOX moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the “ Audit Act, 1858.” Leave granted, bill brought in, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on Friday next. ADJUSTMENT OF THE NEW ZEALAND COMPANY’S DEBT.

Mr. CROSBEE WARD moved, That a copy of the award of Messrs. Richmond and Whitaker on the question referred to them by the Representatives of the Provinces of Nelson, Canterbury, and Otago, in 1858, respecting the adjustment of the New Zealand Company's Debt between those Provinces, be ordered to be laid on the table, together with a copy of the agreement for arbitration; and that the same be ordered to be printed.—Agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY. 1. LAW PRACTITIONERS' BILL. Mr. RUSSELL brought up the Report of the Select Committee on the Law Practitioners' Bill. Bill ordered to be committed to-morrow, and the Report of the Select Committee to be referred to the Committee of the whole House for consideration. 2. NATIVE CROWN TITLES BILL. The House went into Committee on this Bill, and some amendments having been made, the Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again. Ordered to be further considered in Committee on Tuesday next. 3 LAND REVENUE APPROPRIATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Dr. FEATHERSTON, on rising to move the second reading of this Bill, said, if thf lion, gentleman opposite (Mr. Richmond) had hot intimated that he should oppose it, he (Dr. F.) would not have made any remarks in support of it. This Bill was twice carried in (his House last session, the first time by a large majority, the second time without a division, and was both times rejected by the Legislative Council. There was carried at the same time tin Address to the Governor to cause the repayment to the Provinces impounded under the Act of 1808. Just before the close of the session the majority which had carried those Bills insisted on the repayment of £BB,OOO of surplus revenue, and also that provision should be made in the Appropriation or Loan Act for the impounded sixths, amounting to £25,000. The Colonial Treasurer at first refused; but being in this difficulty, that neither Loan Hills nor Appropriation Bill were passed, and the House would die a natural death in a few days, a(tev a stormy discussion, it was agreed that the Treasurer should pay the £38,000 of surplus revenue, and that the reserved sixths should remain over to the present session. To that certain conditions were attached. The members lor Canterbury and Otago pledged themselves to support a similar measure, if they had again seats in thu House; the hon. gentleman then at the head of the Government promised to offer no further opposition, and the Colonial Treasurer made a statement to this effect —that, if a new House should approve the principle, of the Bill, no opposition should be offered on the part of the Government in the other House, and that it would be unconstitutional if the other House in such a case persisted in throwing out the Bill. The hon. member for Oraata also promised to support it, and he (Dr. Featherston) called for the fulfilment of all these promises. The hon. member (Dr. Featherston) then went into an argument in favor of the Bill, in which he urged that the Act of 1858 was passed in the absence of all the Wellington members but the Speaker, and that .it was a decided infraction of the compact of 1856, and quoted from the Resolutions, from Mr. Sevvell's speech of that time, iml the Colonial Treasurer's Despatch asking the Home Government for the guaranteed loan, to show that it was intended to be a permanent and irrevocable arrangement, and by which the management of the waste lands was transferred to the Provinces, and the land fund made Provincial Revenue. Setting aside other grounds for the repeal of thi* Act, he simply asked tlin assent of the House on the sole ground that the Act of 1858 was a distinct violation of the Resolutions of ISSG, and an infraction of the contract then entered into by the Middle and Northern Islands.

Mr. RICHMOND entirely disclaimed an insinuation made by the Colonial Secretary that he (Mr. R.) had the least desire to interfere with the financial arrangements of 1856. He had voted for those arrangements not because he had thought they had would bo more profitable to the Northern Island, but because they were just and founded on true principles of Colonial policy, and they had in reality proved more advantageous to the Northern Island than they had at ihe time any reason to expect they would be. He appealed to the House if lie had ever given any justification for the imputation that be was desirous of invading the rights of the Provinces to their land fund. If it could be shown that the Act of 1858 was cither unjust or impolitic he would assent to their repeal. He contended that ihe Act did in fact give legal effect to the resolutions of 1850, and was in no way opposed to them ; that there was nothing in those resolutions to hand over the land revenue unconditionally to the Provincial Governments, though it did to the Provinces ; but it had always been understood that the fund was to he administered by the General Government. As to the irrevocability of the contract, the 17th resolution provided that the entire scheme was to remain open for the revision of the General Assembly if an Act of Parliament were not obtained confirming it, which never was obtained ; and the Gtli resolution declaring that the expenditure of the £IBO,OOO loan was to be made subject to such conditions as the Legislature might direct. With that authority the Sixths Act was passed, which was intended (o create a circulating fund for the more complete extinguishment of Native title. It was contended that the Bill was an infraction of the rights of the Northern Island, but the Auckland members were ’present when it was passed and made no objection. Ho protested against those arrangements of 1856 being styled a compact, for the members for Otago and Wellington were dissentient from it, and could therefore not ho parties to it as a contract. He advised the Middle Island members to disregard the threats of the Colonial Secretary, who would never have the power to repeal the main principles of the resolutions of 1856. He then referred to the large and valuable blocks of land still to he acquired in Wellington, about Wanganui, Waitotara and Manawatu, and for which only £10,00'.) of their land fund was left, and contended that the extinguishment of Nath e title was not a mere Provincial, hut a Colonial and even Imperial concern. The present system of land purchase was expensive, hut he was prepared to find any new system equally expensive, involving, as it must, the individualization of Native title, and as to borrowing more money, we were trenching on the utmost limits of our borrowing power. He protested against the money that should he employed in opening up new districts being expended for the improvement of the old. It was a real Superintendent’s proposition —to sacrifice the future to the present. In conclusion he maintained that the clauses sought to he repealed were neither unjust nor inexpedient, but in strict accordance with the spirit and letters of the arrangements of 1856. It was an expedient thing at the present moment to maintain (hose arrangements, and he should therefore give his advice against the second reading of the Bill. Mr. FITZHERBEUT made a long and discursive speech, in which ho charged against the late Governmant that, but for their blundering, the purchase of the Waitotara block referred to might have been completed long ago, and argued that the contract of 1856 was irrevocably binding on all parties, including the dissentients, after it had once become law, though the North Island had then made a blunder not expecting it would have cost so much to extinguish the Native title.

Mr. J. CRACROFT WILSON thought the Sixths \ct was a plain transaction, us men engaged in a joint stock concern kept a reserve fund to meet any ifiiculties that might arise ; but if the members for i lie Northern Island had not sufficient prudence to make a reserve fund, he would not thrust prudence down their throats against their will, lie should, hcrcforc, vote for the second reading of this Bill. Question put and agreed to. Bill read a second time and ordered to be committed presently. l. PUBLIC EXPENDITURE CONTROL BILL,

AND 5. PROVINCIAL AUDIT BILL

On the motion of Mr. RICHMOND, the second reading of these Bills was postponed till Friday next. 0 IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT ORDINANCE AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. BRANDON moved the second reading of this ljl jsill read a second time and ordered to be committed presently. 7 M WAL and military settlers (HAWKE’S BAY) BILL Mr. ORMOND moved the second reading of this Some discussion then arose upon the difficulty exnorienccd in England in getting to a knowledge ot the Waste Laud Regulations in force at any time, owing to the immense mass of legislation upon the subject. Bill read a second time, and ordered to be committed On the motion of Mr. ORMOND, the House then went into Committee on the following Bills ; The Land Revenue Appropriation Act Amendment

Bill, which was reported with an amendment, ordered to be considered to-morrow; the Imprisonment for Debt Ordinance Amendment Bill, and the Naval and Military Settlers’ (Hawke’s Bay) Bill, which were reported without amendments, read a third time and passed, and ordered to be taken to the Legislative Council, to pray their concurrence therein ; and the Lost Land Orders Bill, which was reported with an amendment, ordered to be considered to-morrow, - 9. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Mr. WOOD moved that this be an order of the day

for to-morrow. Mr. RICHMOND proposed that it be postponed till Tuesday. Mr. BRANDON objected. The Estimates wer# almost the only business before the House, and if the Southern members did not get away by next steamer they would have to wait another month. Mr. RENALL proposed Friday. Mr. SAUNDERS did not see why the House should not go into the Estimates to-morrow. It was desirable to complete the business of the House before the next steamer left for the South. Mr. WOOD said the Government only wished to expedite public business, and he thought a postponement till Friday would be long enough. He would move that it be an order of the day for Friday next. Mr. DICK moved as an amendment that the House go into the estimates to-morrow. Mr JOLLIS and Mr. CRACROFT WILSON referred to the heavy pressure of committee business, and would like a little time to consider the Estimates. Mr. STAFFORD said he would consent to the motion that the estimates be ordered to he considered on Friday, although he did not pledge himself to go on with them then. The ruling of the Chairman of Com mittccs, last session, was that no vote could be postponed. Nor could any vote be increased without a message from His Excellency. Seeing that there were errors in the estimates which had caught his attention, even on cursorily looking at them that evening, he did not think that they should be gone into until hon. members had had ample opportunity to investigate them, and ascertain the extent of those errors. The estimates were framed exactly like those of last year (and he did not say this as a reproach to the Colonial Treasurer); but the circumstances had altered since then. A new Act had come into operation, and while no provision was made in the estimates for new registrars, and only six months’ provision for the Registrar-General of Land, provision was made for officers whose office had been abolished. The hon. gentleman then alluded to the haste which seemed to be manifested that evening for the first time to hurry through the business of the session; but the government should recollect that very important measures were to come before them for consideration, besides the report of the committee on military defence. The bon. gentleman at the head of the government had told them that he meant to introduce several bills, some of which had only been laid on the table, while notice had just been given for. others. There was the New Provinces Repeal Bill, which had not yet been introduced; and surely it was not intended to surprise the House into passing it, by the suspension of the standing orders? The policy of the Native Minister had not yet been stated to the House; and it was right the House and country should know the fitness of that hon. gentleman to conduct the affairs of the country during the adjournment. In fact, the House and country wanted a more explicit statement of policy on the part of the hon. gentlemen than they had yet had, before they were prepared to repose unlimited confidence in them. (Hear.) He did not question the talents of the hon, gentlemen to conduct the affairs of the country satisfactorily, but he confessed that the Ministry, which appeared to be not a fortuitous compbinatiou of atoms, but a combination of interests for a particular purpose, and not a cohesion because of a similarity of principles, had not his confidence on that account. There had not been a factious opposition to the government, nor was there a disposition to offer any,—a fair general support had been given to the Ministry; but he warned the hon. gentleman at the head of the government that there existed a strong opposition in the House, which, in the words of a great constitutional authority, was, next to a strong administration, the second best thing for securing good government; and if the government showed a disposition to disregard the feelings of the other section of the House, advantage might he taken of the forms of the House to prolong the public business, until such time as the measures and policy of the government could be considered. (Hear, hear.) Mr. O’NEILL supported postponement till Tuesday. The Native Minister should be heard on his policy, and the Colonial Treasurer on the Customs’ Tariff, before thev went into the Estimates.

Mr. FOX replied to Mr. Stafford’s remarks, stating that the new Government could not be expected to bring down the measures demanded this session, but intended to conclude the business of the session as soon as possible, and prepare such measures as necessary during fhe recess. Had they not determined on this course, they would have had to ask for an adjournment of a month or two to prepare in. The late Ministry had had five years to consider measures in, but had produced none. lie would also assure the hon. member that the Government had no intention of shirking the repeal of the New Provinces Act, the Bill for which was in the hands of the printer. This discursive discussion was then continued by Messrs Williamson, Mantell, Weld, Curtis, and Carter; and on the question bcinr put, it was ordered that the consideration of the Estimates be an Order of the Day for Friday next. 10. DEBTORS’ AND CREDITORS’ COMPOSITION BILL.

On the motion of Mr. BRANDON, the considerain Committee of this Bill was adjourned till Thursday. 11. NATURALIZATION BILL.

The report of the Committee of the whole House on this Bill was adopted, and the Bill read a third time and passed, and ordered to be taken to the Legislative Council.

12. REGISTRATION OF ELECTORS’ ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

The report of the Committee on this Bill was adopted, and the Bill read a third time and passed, and ordered to he taken to the Legislative Council, to pray their concurrence therein.

The House then adjourned at half-past ten,

THURSDAY. JULY 25th, 1861. The Speaker too the chair at twelve o’clock PRESENT TARIFF.

Mr. O’NEILL believed he would be in order in again putting the question which he had formerly put to the Colonial Treasurer relative to the tariff. It was known that there were members of the Government, colleagues of the Colonial Treasurer, that represented constituencies whose views were against the present tariff—would they conform to the views of their constituencies, or adhere to their own with regard to the matter ? When he last put his question, the Colonial Treasurer replied that, when he had made his Financial Statement he would give the information sought. Not having heard him refer to the tariff when delivering his statement, he had not learnt the Government’s intention, and as it was a question of importance ho thought the House would be glad to hear the intention of the Government at once with regard to it. Mr. WOOD : The hon. member had asked him this question before, and he was at liberty to ask him that or any other question as often as he pleased. With regard to the financial arrangement for this year, he had laid the intention of the Government before the House the other day in his statement; and, inasmuch as he did not mention their intention of altering the tariff', he might have concluded that such was not their intention ; however, he begged to inform the hon. member that they did not contemplate any alterations in the tariff whatever. NATIVE LAND TITLES.

Mr. ORMOND rose to ask the hon. the Native Minister what course the Government intend to pursue in reference to the application of Renata and other Native chiefs, on behalf of the Ngatikahungunn Tribe, expressing the wish of the people to individualise their laud titles, and requesting the assistance of the Government in so doing. The hon. member had just heard that the document referred to had not been returned yet, which precluded his question being answered at present. To meet this difficulty the hon. member produced a copy of the application from his pocket, laid it on the table, and moved that it be printed, wi hj the understanding that the Native Minister could answer his question when he had consulted the original document. The Speaker and the House agreed to .his course Though the Speaker did observe that hon. members had in several instances produced papers, and moved that thev be printed, which was a practice he did not much likc'Mr. Ormond’s paper might be a genuine copy of the originaldocument, andallverycorrect, but for many reasons, cither some member of the Government, or the Speaker, or the Chairman of Committee, or the Clerk of the House, should certify to the correctness of any document, before the House be asked to stamp it with its authority. COMPENSATION. Mr. WELD rose to ask the Colonial Treasurer whether it is the intention of Government to propose that any compensation should be given to certain landowners in the Wairarapa, for injuries arising out of the illegal occupation of their lands by Rawiri Piharau and other Natives. The hon. member remarked that in consequence of a short conversation he had had with the Colonial Treasurer, the answer to this question must be postponed.

JURIES. The Hon. Mr. FOX moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Jury Amendment Act. The hon. member, in support of this Bill, rcmaikcd that its object was to prevent unnecessary expense in printing the lists in the former mode in the various Provinces. Bill received, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on Tuesday next. DISTRICT COURTS. The Hon. Mr. FOX moved for leave to bring in a Bill to revise the Resident Magistrates’Extension of Jurisdiction Act. The hon. mcmherobservedthat.inacccordanco with a resolution of the House of last session the District Courts were to be abolished. There was no necessity for going through any formal mode of discontinuing them, as the preliminary notice given by the late Colonial Secretary was sufficient, and as that lion, member observed, that they had only to omit placing the salaries of the District Judges on the estimates, and they lapsed of themselves. But in order to provide for this it did become necessary to revive the Resident Magistrates’ Act, which had been repealed. Ho would call the attention of the House to this fact—that experience may have shown that improvements could be introduced into the Resident Magistrates’ Act, and the Government would be happy to receive suggestions from those hon members who had given the subject their consideration. Mr. C. W. RICHMOND thought the Resident Magistrates’ Act was capable of amendment. Ho was in hopes the hon. member would not revive the Act to what it was prior to the District Courts being established. He could not see anything more likely to imperil the seats of justice than by placing the Local Magistrates under the Superintendents of the Provinces. Ho was in that position now in wiiich he could not he reproached with a desire to retain “power to themselves.” When he deprecated the idea of the administration of justice being left in the hands of the Superintendents, they could not with safety leave that degree of control over it to the elective head of a Province. He trusted the Bill brought down would he modified in this respect, as any attempt of this kind would be disliked, and was sure to meet with a most determined opposition. Agreed to. Bill received, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to bo read a second time on Tuesday next. NELSON CROWN LANDS. Mr. DOMETT moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Regulations for the Sale and Disposal of Waste Lands of the Crown in Nelson The hon. member said the proposed amendments by this Bill had passed through the Provincial Council of the Province and agreed to by the Superintendent. They related to various improvements, such as the making of roads in the Colony, &e. The amendments had been copied nearly verbatim from the Regulations of the Province of Canterbury, and that they would be a great benefit to the Province by incrersing the public land fund. Leave granted. Bill read a first time, ordered to ho printed, and to he read a second time on Tuesday next. ARMS BILL. Mr. STAFFORD begged to ask the lion, member at the head of the Government a question without notice. When the hon. member made his statement of the Government policy to the House lie did not say whether it was their intention to renew the Arms Bill. Nor could he, in looking over the reports in the public journals, gather from them any information on this matter. He wanted to know whether the present Government meant to allow the Arms Bill to lapse altogether? He thought they would probably bring in some Bill. Was it their intention to bring in any Bill of that kind? Mr. FOX : The intention of the Government with regard to that Bill was simply to extend it to another session. Owing to the alterations that were made in that Bill, it did not now contain much that was objectionable. Thedi'ficuUy arose from the Regulations. The Government proposed to continue the present Act, and would probably suggest some alteration next session. ORDERS OF THD DAY. LAW PRACTITIONERS’ BILL. On motion of Mr. FOX the committal of this Bill (owing to the hon. member, Mr. Brandon, who had charge of it, not being in his place at the time) was postponed till other orders had been disposed of. LAND REVENUE APPROPRIATION AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. FOX moved the adoption of the Report on this Bill.—Agreed to. Bill read a third time. Mr. STAFFORD wished to make a few observations on this Bill, but not with the view of opposing it. He had intended to have made his remarks on its second reading, but having been out of the House when it came on, he had not the opportunity of doing so. He found himself in some difficulty. It was perfectly true that he assented to an understanding that no opposition would be offered to this Bill; if, after a general election, the majority of the House should be in favour of the existing law being repealed. lie was prepared to abide by that understanding in this House, and that the other branch of the Legislature would equally abide by that understanding. At the same time he wished to place on record his opinion that to do so was a very unwise measure. He should never be deterred from expressing his opinion by any agreement or compact entered into between one portion of the Island and another, nor by any compact between one Province and another. In speaking of the compact of 1856 the late Government did not look on it in the light of a compact, though it had been called so by commentators outside the House. They would ever oppose the arrangement of 1850; they should do that; and his hon. friend of the Middle Island would he quit# prepared to defend it. The word compact, in a proper sense —in a dictionary sense—did not apply, it was a mere lapsus lingua, and as such it had been suffered to pass. Nor were many words applied to their true import which were used in the course of debate. His hon. friend the member for New Plymouth said there were no parties that could make any such compact outside of this House; that it was an unconstitutional proceeding to which no one would submit. To make it binding it should have been done with a general concurrence. The hon. member for Lyttelton did not acquiesce in the arrangement. Mr. Stafford then alluded to the arrangement made between the Provinces of Canterbury and Utaeo in reference to the £2OO,DUO being borne by the Middle Island; that was an agreement, as all "the members were consenting parties to the distribution of that debt. The respective Provinces were morally bound to respect the bargain their Representatives bad made. Then again, on the boundary lino question, hon. members pledged themselves; and even those who may not have been pledged tacitly admitted the agreement by offering no opposition. On these two occasions he considered the arrangements were binding in honor on the gentlemen who represented those districts. The word compact, ns it alluded to the House, was a mistake, for no one member could bind any other member. Nothing should prevent him from voting in opposition to any such agreements when he thought fit, although he might find some of his friends opposed to him. The word “compact” could not apply to 185(5, because there was no unanimity in that arrangement. It was not an arrangement supported unanimously by the parties interested. It came to a division with flic view of allowing members to record their opinions. The Province of Auckland was divided on the question. One of the hon. members, who is now a member of the Government (Mr. Henderson) was against it. The Province of Wellington was not unanimous on this question - four or five members voted against it, and there were members from Otago opposed to the arrangement. In a dictionary sense, the word “compact” could not be properly applied. Ho might have passed it over, only for the use which had been made ot it; the word had been mystified for the purpose of deluding hon. members. It was really nothing more than waste paper till the late Government gave effect to it. Then, as to the charge of infringement of the financial policy of 1856. One member for Wellington, the whole of the members from Otago and New Plymouth, in 1858, did not look upon the arrangement as an infringement of compact. The Chief Justice of the colony did not think the resolutions of 1856 were a binding compact. There was a gentleman who occasionally threw ridicule on lawyers, such as “Old Bailey practice.” &c., hut he hardly thought that hon. gentleman, although master of vituperation, would apply that term to the Oh id Justice, as he stood too high as an authority. He would now pass on to the measure. He did not wish to he misunderstood. He was perfectly aware that the Bill now before the House was a step towards the direct purchase system in this part of the colony. There was a large portion that did not take any part whatever ; there was another section who would support the Bill on the ground that the arrangement of 1858 was a violation of the arrangement of 1856. There were others who wanted to sec it pass, because by it money would be liberated and brought into the land purchase. Though many of the members were desirous of seeing the Bill pass, though their interest in it did not rest on the same grounds, there were two members who, some time ago, were prominently opposed to the system of direct purchase. Articles appeared in what may now bo called the Ministerial organ, against such a system becoming the law of the land. Another gentleman, the member for the City of Wcllingon, bad on more than one occasion expressed Ids opposition to such a system. [Dr. Fkatiierston : Only as far as the Province of Wcllington was concerned.] He himself never felt very strongly against the same system, mid

although up to the present moment, and after letters and articles had been published filling column after column of the newspapers, and thousjh they had again and again used the magic words, •' free trade in land,’’ he had never yet been shown how direct purchase was to be brought iu'o operation. lie was not opposed to the principle, but there required a little more civilisation amongst the Natives. They should become better acquainted with our Courts first, and they themselves must bo consenting parties to it. lie, therefore, viewed with considerable alarm anything that interfered with present arrangements. It was like a person putting money in the Savings’ Bank for a rainy day. In a short time it had accumulated to a nest egg of £30,000, and if they did away with this system, the Northern Island would some day have cause to regret He gave them a note of warning that some day they would regret that they had got no Savings’Bank; the Northern Island would regret being without some means of purchasing land. (Mr. Stafford here referred to the Bay oflslands Settlement Act, in illustrationof the necessity of the Government having funds in reserve for certain cases ) There was always some preliminary expenditure required to carry on surveys and open main lines of roads. In planting new settlements, it was absolutely necessary to incur expense, or it would be like people being placed in a wilderness. When surveys were made, and roads opened, ships would come in, and the place would be more likely to go ahead when these details had been attended to. The lion, member here alluded to the large parliamentary grant from the New South Wales exchequer, for the benefit of those who should come into the country. In all cases of this kind, an advance of money was found necessary. The hon. member argued that advances of money might be required to establish industrial schools, hospitals, and other institutions amongst the Natives, in proportion as the lands were obtained by the Government —amt for this they would not be prepared—no money, without getting it through the votes of this House, either by loans or by hypothecating the revenues of the colony. It would be then that the Northern Island would regret not having a nest egg. for they would not get the members of the Southern Island to concede to their wishes, though there were sonic members who did not think they came there to represent a part, but the whole of New Zealand : they would always feel themselves bound to protect the interests of their various constituencies. Having stated these views, which he had maintained while ho was in office, he trusted he hud placed on record his opinion of the effect of this measure on the Northern Island.

Mr. I). BELL took the very opposite opinion to that expressed by Mr. Stafford relative to the arrangements of 1856 and 185 S. The agreement of 1856 was a compact, the Act of 1858 was an infringement of that compact.

Mr. WILLIAMSON spoke against the arrangements of 1858, and proceeded to give a number of practical illustrations in favor of the money being handed over to the Superintendents and Provincial Councils, as it enabled them to carry on surveys and promote systems of colonization. Messrs. WELLS and JOLLIE asserted their independence, as members of the House, and did not feel themselves bound by any compact entered into by members of a former session.

Question put and carried. Bill read a third time, passed, and ordered to be sent to the Legislative Council, praying concurrence therein. On the motion of Mr. BRANDON the Law Practitioners’ Bill and the Debtors’ and Creditors’ Bill were committed.

Reported, with amendments; the former to be further considered to-morrow, and the latter on Tuesday next. Mr. WOOD laid papers on the table, in answer to a call for returns of unauthorized expenditure up to 1860, and later dates. MESSAGE FROM THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

The SPEAKER announced that he had received two Bills—the New Zealand Bank Bill, which had gone through the other House without amendments; and the New South Wales Bank Bill, which had passed with amendments, and the other House prayed concurrence therein.

Ordered to be considered next sitting day. On motion of Mr. WILLIAMSON the House adjourned at a } past 3 o’clock.