HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealander, Volume XIV, Issue 1284, 7 August 1858, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

MONDAY, AUGUST 2, 1838. TtoaerNT • - Messrs. East. Hall, Forsaith. Brown, *r fl rleton Ward, Haultain, Stafford, Domett, Merriman. Richmond, Daldy, Curtis, Brodie, Williamson, Ollivier, Munro. Packer, Moorhouse, Cargill, and the Speaker. Mr CARLETON asked the hon. the Colonial Treasurer— Whether the Government arc in possesV of any information as to orders issued by the War Office to stop Income Tax from Hie Enrolled Pensioners; also, whether stoppages have been made anti transmitted to England on such authority Mr RICHMOND said the Government were not m session of snv information on the subject; it could, he bebeved, onlv be obtained through the officer commanding the Pensioner Force, to whom all such adrices were addressed by the Home Government. THE POSTAL SERVICE. Mr HALL moved, — That the Petition from certain Electors of the Province of Wellington, relative to the Postal Communication between Wanganui and Wellington be considered.—The petition complained that certain’Settlements between Wanganui and Wellington had been deprived of any postal communication by the contract recently entered into. He was not going 0,1 tlie P resent occasion to attach a nv blame to the Government in this matter, but the object of his motion was to discover some remedy for this evil. The former arrangement under which the mails had been carried by the Maories had been discontinued and tenders had been issued for a new one. in which no provision had been made for the conveyance of mails to the places he had mentioned; this was the subject of complaint for which he asked the House to provide some remedy. The hon. Colonial Secretary thought it might be done by the Provincial Government He (Mr. M.) thoiu-ht it would have been better if the Provincial authorities had been informed of the proposed alteration, and asked to contribute a portion of the expense of conveying the mail to these intermediate places, from the Ist of October next, the Provincial Governments would cease to have any control over the mail service, and then of course it might be expected the General Government would organize it in a satisfactory manner. But the question was. What is to be done between that time and the present ? lie would suggest as the onlyplan that appeared satisfactory, that directions should be sent to the Postmaster of Wellington, authorizing him to immediately forward the mails to those localities which were now entirely neglected, on condition that the Provincial Government contributed ft portion of the extra expense to be thereby incurred. Mr. STAFFORD said that he had forwarded a letter to the Postmaster expressing surprise, th it he should have discontinued the mail to the places mentioned wqn "it having iccctved any instructions on the subject from the Government, or without having forwarded any information of the change. The Government had seriously considered whether, with the present fac litiesoffered by the steam service,it would not he desirable to discontinue the overland mail altogether and establish postal communication coastwise, which would obviate the many difficulties of transit which at, present exised; and amongst others, the annoyance experienced from the opposition of the Maories, who threw every impediment they could in the way of the conveyance of the mail, from a feeling of annoyance at having been deprived of the contract themselves. Tbe question was put and pass' d. THE INTER-PROVINCIAL STEAM ROUTE. Mr. HALL moved, —That it is desirable this House should be made acquainted as soon as possible with the route which it is intended shall be followed by the Steamers to be employed under the contract recently entered into with Messrs Pearson, Coleman, and Co. —ln letters addressed by the Colonial Secretary to the Chambers of Commerce at Nelson and Wellington, of which copies were on the table, it was stated that it would be left to the General Assembly to decide upon the best ronte for these steamers, and he hoped, as the session was so near conclusion, that the Government would give the House some definite information on the route proposed as soon as possible, and thus enable hon. members to express their own opinion upon it, Mr. STAFFORD said that when the statement, re- I ferred to by the hon. member, was made to the Nelson Chamber of Commerce, it was believed that the contract entered into by Mr. Sewrll with Messrs. Pearson, Coleman, and Co., would have arrived in the Colony. It had not yet been received, nor had the Government any knowledge of the proposed route. No doubt, when the contract arrived it would point out. some special r {? U p’ ut 110 d°ubt if on the arrival of the agent of th- Company, a route can he proposed more likely- to Pay the contractors, they would be willing to vary their contract to that extent. The Government bad considered another route, which appeared more likely to Wi and it should be borne in mind that unless the 6 rvi< ; e become fairly remunerative it would be given ®P : it would be seen, therefore, that the Colony had ng reasons for endeavouring to make the enterprise ’ urn as large a profit to the contractors as possible. ]| e iCTe< i that unless the steamers were enabled to at the principal ports in their route, and to take in go, m addition to the passenger traffic, they wo*ld a E a - V - Gf course the adoption of the route which overnment had sketched out would depend in a j.* rn( [ i * sury upon the powers of the Company’s W * ueru authorised to decide upon the ,1 r route ’ an( l were willing to adopt the suggestion of .Lj vern nient, then of course they would have no matte 10n H g * VC ** ouse every information on the . r . He thought there should he some expression the flousc "P on the subject. Ve .„ '■ yLDY would propose that if the contra- t sion t/ 1 • nn ds of the Government before the sessomp .™! mnte( *’ tbeu the Government should submit Mr R m cons '‘leration of the House, bon if k said he was willing to withdraw his moMr c-p! Uopesition were acceded to. opinion •5 TOKD thou K ht *at “» expression of Would k be taken now, and save the time that Mr hj .°^ cu P* ,J fi by another debate, trom, A LL thought it was for the Government to TtW-W the House. «ke'ched said he had already briefly the Go,. out th « route cosidered most satisfactory by Mr H mentdebate wou 'd propose an adjournment of the Pointer ■ V * lolu st oP raatter was whether was 0 f tv lJrovi,lcial steamers were to he employe I. It Colonv tf 11 b ,reater importance to the interests of the be e*tai,|; l 1 F il P‘d UTI, I regular communication should communi- between the Provinces, than that a should kT 10 ? m °re than once a month necessary fc f * e P l n P with England. It was ferity of th°p tll - e P o *‘tical union and the prosti°n shoul 1 1 rov ’ n< ; es that hi month'y communicaetpendu,'. 6 established between them. The largo lively Uns . 0 l £24.000 annually would be cornpara*mmnniJ B,Uc . tor - v they were onlv to have monthly hr. between the Provinces. *itlidraw th * would second the motion for leave to 501 entertaivf not ‘ c< r’ ai ‘d hope 1 the House would '(•uldbeff a i n -' Hither motion on the subject. It lOr T result Jl f- n< y HifficiiU to arrive at any satisfacSf.;, upon the present question as “° Usp -could 1-V xe . cul >ve nature. Of course the any tJ . ex P ress *ts opinion as to the desirability “ e foiijidg. J c . u ar r °ute—hut when it had done that. w°Qld ' 11 ‘ la d done all that was expedient. It fri to ad Xt , r<iinel y difficult for the Legislature, if ‘ of tn a sun f**. SUI - oute suggested by the House, to 81 ' 101 *! Y rim geuient; for there were many f tfosubi Jf ari(l difficulties,and many different views undiiLt j ‘bo Executive alone could proJ*PftW UUL *.P roT ide for. He thought it inudo,, Jr opinion of the House and the Exee question should be at variance. The

Legislature might express generally what they desired, but it should be left to the Executive to carry out the necessary details. Mr. OLLIVIER believed that was the precise object of the motion made by his hon. friend, the member for Christchurch Country District. Mr. HALL believed that a pledge had been given to the Nelson and Wellington Chambers of Commerce by the Government that the determination of the route should be left to the Assembly. Mr. STAFFORD said that was not the case The Government were willing to adopt any route which appeared most advantageous. Mr. PACKER said that the motion merely sought to ascertain the intentions of the Government on the subject, so that the Southern members might return to their constituencies with some imformation on a subject so nearly affecting their interests. The question was th en put and passed. THU LAND PURCHASE QUESTION. Mr. DALDY moved, —That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that it should be lawful for the Governor in Council at any time to sell land for, or on behalf of any Aboriginal Native or Natives, (provided alwuy. that the said land shall hare been surveyed, and roads laid out, under the authority of the Government); such lands to be sold by auction, and the purchasers to be required to pay to the Government an additional payment of not less than one-fourth of the purchase money before the issue of a Crown Grant; and such payment to be treated us Territorial Revenue of the Province wherein such land may bo situated.— He would briefly state the reason why the motion had been removed from its place as portion of a clause in the Waste Lands Bill, where he originally intended to place it. It wa* at first his intention to place it in the Territorial Rights Bill, but some of his friends told him it didn’t tit there; and then ho wished to place it in the Waste Lauds Bill, but others had told him it didn’t fit there either; so he concluded to bring it forward in its present shape, as a separate motion He believed that no question had occupied the attention of the House during the present session of so much importance to the Province of Auckland as the question he now brought forward. He believed that the present mode of acquiring land in this Province was greatly retarding its prosperity, and unless some new scheme were introduced, he believed that the Province of Auckland £ ould become what had been called by some, rt mere Moari trailing settlement. He did not expect that gentlemen from the South would feel that interest in the subject winch he felt, and his Northern friends might suppose, from the frequent allusions he had made to the subject, and his perseverance in pressing its importance, that he was making a mere hobby of it. But it was not so; for his sole object in bringing the question forward was a deep and powerful sense of its importance to the future prosperity of the Province. He hoped that hon. members would express a deliberate opinion there upon. He would first direct their attention to the principle embodied in his motion, and that which obtained in the present system; and would ask them to judge between the merits of the two. His motion proposed to carrv out all that the Treaty of Waitangi admitted. That Treaty allowed that the Natives had a just right to retain the land; and their right to it had never been questioned. Then on what principle must land he acquired from the Natives. Why by keeping strictly to the terms of the arrangement which had been entered into - on the princi des of justice and fair dealing. The motion provided that land should be surveyed. And on this subjecthe would ask how the conflicting and complicated land claims arise? Entirely from want of care on the part of the Government: if the land had been surveyed and properly divided, and boundaries definitely fixed in the first instance, the confusion and distress which had frequently been occasioned by the land claims in this Colony would never have occurred. The next proviso was that the land should he sold by auction. By this means the natives would he satisfied in seeing what their land actually realized : and their general intelligence rendered them fully competent to understand and appreciate such a system. It also provided that roads should he laid out: - ibis, he might observe, was a great omission in the Territorial Rights Bill for he held that no land could become really valuable until good roads were formed through it The native seller would he perfectly satisfied under this system, that he received the nett proceeds of his land. The next part of the motion was framed for the satisfaction of the Government —providing that a certain amount, should be allowed to the Crown before the issue of a Crown Grant. He did not say tha” this was the exact rate of payment to be made, hut it was an approximate sum. He would direct the attention of hon momhers to the working of the present defective system, and to the state of the Province under its operation. Twenty mil s North from that House, the natives possessed land, stretching from sea to sea, of the best quality, and land which many would gladly purchase, but the natives would not sell; and perhaps it suited those settleis employed in pastoral occupation, far better to pay the natives a rent for their cattle runs, than that the land should come into the possession of the Government. If, again, they look-d at the Soiithe-n part of the Province, they found that settlers were becoming dispossessed of land there. There was something very singular that the Government could not obtain land from the natives—hut the natives might be in a great measure influenced by settler* interested in their retaining it, and that was one of the imperfections of the pre.ent system. He would mention Coromandel as an instance of the had policy pursued. That District was rich in timber and gold. The Government had been anxious to get that distnet for several years, without effect, but what had been the cause of their failure ? Why.simply the fact that the settlers could afford to pay the Natives more for the mere surface portion of the land, than the Government could for the surface, land, and all. There were many settlers who purchased timber offthese lands from the Natives in direct violation of the law, and in spite of the Government. And it might he asked, why did not the Government interfere? They were afraid to d" so, because they anticipated that the result would he a dispute with the Natives. He would take another instance —the Island of Waiheki. The natives first sold all the timber off before they offered it to the Government. It might he said that there was plenty ofland available, hut where? If the settlers could not acquire land around Auckland, what would be the result ? Why they would go to a distance, and perhaps six or seven scattered and isolated settlements would be formed, which would weaken the power of the settlers against any combination of the Natives, whom they would not he able to resist if attacked It was a plain fact that the Natives appeared determined not to sell land to the Government, and why not ? Because there was no principle in the system of purchasing pursued by the Government. How did they seek to acquire it ? Why four gentlemen were employed at £3OO a year each to reside in different parts of the Province, and persuade the Natives to sell a hit ofland nowand then for them to survey. In Auckland district they could only purchase ii in patches, and he could state that within the Inst few months us much as 4s. tin acre had been given for it. He considered it a disgrace to any Government to continue such a peddling system, and u disgrace to the Imperial Government to allow it. Here were men amongst the Natives praying them to sell their lands, getting little hits of 300 to 400 acres lie sincerely hoped the Government would not he able to get land of the Natives at all if they continued to pursue this plan of purchase (laughter.) He was not so sanguine as to suppose his scheme would produce a change all at once, hut it would gradually show its advantages over the present mode of acquiring land, and it would give the Natives an idea that the Government was intending to act honestly and justly with them in the matter. His plan was founded in justice, and therefore he hoped it would receive the support of the House. The Natives themselves had a strong sense of justice —it was their peculiar characteristic. The progress of the Province was another consideration —it was at present completely at a stand still.—[Mr. William sun : No ] : well, (continued Mr. Daldy) the land sales of the last halt year had not amounted to more than £IOOO His proposal was not a new idea of his own, it had occupied his attention for some years. Three years ago he had addressed a letter to the Governor on the subject. He feared the Government would adhere to the foolish old red-tape system till the tape broke, and some other system would he probably adopted, perhaps to lead to the same result. Mr. BROWN seconded the motion. On the motion of Mr. MERRIMAN the debate was adjourned until to-morrow. Orders op the Day. The Waste Lunds Bill was re-committed with amendments. Report to ho considered to-morrow. The amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Registration of Electors Bill, were agreed to. Mr. STAFFORD moved the second reading of the Regulation of Elections Bill, repeating his previous remarks on the introduction of the Bill. Mr. C'ARLETON seconded the motion. The Bill was read a second time and ordered to he committed to-morrow. The Gold Duty Bill was committed, and reported without amendments, read a third time and passed, and the Chairman of Committees appointed to carry it to the Legislative Council, and request concurrence therein. In the course of the sitting Mr. Whitaker brought up a Message from the Legislative Council announcing that they had passed the Province of Taranaki Bill, without amendments ; also, the Civil Service Bill, the Crown Grants Correction Bill, and

the Native Reserves Bill, with amendments, which were ordered to be considered to-morrow. The House adjourned at 7 o’clock.

TUESDAY, AUGUST 3rd, 1858. Pkmf.nt : Messrs. Hall, Moorhouse, Packer, Cargill, Haultain, Ollivier, Richmond, Stafford, Brown, Monro, Domett, Daldy, Ward, Brodie, Forsaith, Williamson, Graham, Ea*t, Lee, Mernman, and the Speaker. Mr. HALL brought up the Report o( the Library and Printing Committee, which was read and ordered to he considered on a future day. Mr. RICHMOND brought up the Report of the Select Committee on the Nelson Petition, which was read. Mr. FORSAITH brought up the report of the conference wilh the Legislative Council on the Savings Bank Hill. Report read THE CANTERBURY PLANS AND SURVEYS, Mr. HALL moved that the Report of the Select Committee on the adjustment of the Claims of the Colony and Provinces arising from the transfer of the Land and Survey Departments, and on the Claim of the Province of Canterbury for Maps and Surveys, he adopted. Two questions had been referred to the Committee. On the first question, that of the transfer of the Land and Survey Department to the Province, the Committee had come to the conclusion that the Provinces had not acquired inch a permanent interest in the property of the Land Offices as to justify claims upon them for payment. The General Government had retained the option of taking back that properly if they thought proper. With regard to the claims of the Province of Canterbury the Committee had concluded that a sum of £2,832 was due to that Province. Mr. RICHMOND said that the resolution of the Committee might appear a very modest one, hut the real meaning of it was that a debt of £1,832 was due to the Province of Canteihury, and that meant an extra fid. duty on spirits, or another half-penny on sugar. He wished to wake up the attention of the House to the importance of the question before them. It was a question of money ; and he could tell the House that there was no money in his pigeon holes, he had not a single sixpence more than he knew what to do with (laughter.) The Province of Canterbury claimed payment of the debt. [Mr. Hall, —The Committee only recommend that it should ho considered in any settlement of accounts which may hereafter take place.] It meant the same thing. The assets and liabilities of the Colony at present were exactly balanced, hut the payment of that sum would disturb the present arrangements. It the debt were liqudatcd it must come from taxation, and that was a fact to which he particularly desired to call the attention of the House. The origin of the claim was this. The Provine* of Canterbury was founded hv the Canterbury Association, and being an only child it received all the care and attention which an only child generally does receive. A very large expenditure was incurred lor miscellaneous purposes amounting in all to £57 000, part of which [about £9ooo] was fur Maps and Surveys. He was not speaking in condemnation of this large outlay, for he believed the money had been well spent, and as the result of it the Province of Canterbury possessed at this time a more complete system of Surveys than any other part of the Colony. The two parties who actually stood face to face on the question of this claim were the Canterbury Association and the General Government. The Association had left the Pro vince property in Maps and Surveys to the value of nearly £3OOO. [Mr. Hall: —No that wasonly the debt, the actual value of the property was much larger.] Well it was the mean value of the maps us they now stand ; of course their value was about the sum he had named. The Canterbury Association now asked the General Government to recognise the claim—or at least the Province did so, which might be said to stand in the shoes of the Association. He was not going to dispute the validity of the claim, which he wa* quite ready to admit ; but the question had become further complicated by the transfer of the Land and Survey Departments to the several Provinces The two questions seemed to his mind inextricably mixed up together ; for the Province of Canterbury was asking the Government to hand over that which they had already declared their intention of transferring to the Provinces. The Committee was asked to decide not only upon that claim of the Province of Canterbury, hut also to determine what were the claims of the several Provinces. To some of them the General (Jo vernment handed over nothing, while in some cases, they transferred land offices, maps and surveys, of considerable value. To some Provinces they were handing over instruments for which the Col*ny had just paid, while in other cases there was not an instrument worth fid. in the Survey Department. Thus two questions were mixed together. The Government had no wish to dispute the Canterbury claim —they wished to recognise it ; hut at the same time they desired some general principle to ho laid down for equalizing the property handed over by the General Government to the Provinces. If it were determined that each Province should debited with the value of the pro party in its Land and Survey Department, then should not’Canterbury to he debited with a portion of the debt which it was claiming? He did not say that this should he the plan of adjustment, hut if it were so, then Canterbury would clearly come in for a share of the debt. The Committee had assumed that the property would he again assumed by the General Government. [Mr. Hall,— May be.] ’ Why then was not that stated clearly in the Report ? The Government had distinctly stated that the land offices, maps, instruments, &c., would be handed over to tlie Provinces. With that real and energy which so greatly distinguished the lorn member fur Christchurch Country Districts,—especially in behalf of his own Province, his zeal for las own Province had caused him to bring down a fragmentary report, which did not deal with the leading question submitted to the Committee for consideration. He would propose as an amendment that the question be referred hack to the Select Committee to report fully upon it. proceeding on the assumption that the whole of the property both fixed and moveable will he handed over to the Provincial Government. He did not think that the laudable zeal of members for particular Provinces should affect the interests of others The Report only dwelt with oncfourth of the question referred to the Committee for decision.

Mr. HALL objected to the amendment. It was within a few days of the close of the session, and probably the matter could not be considered again by the Committee. It was a very convenient method of shelving a troublesome question,—quite in accordance with the usual course adopted by Ministers in such cases. He fully sympathised with the hon. Colonial Treasurer; for it was a very disagreeable thing to have debts brought forward which you have no particular fund to meet them with. It was quite impossible for the Committee to investigate the subject at that late period of the session. The justice of the claim was not denied, and therefore he would ask the House not to allow hat question to stand in the way of a just debt. It was a question of paying a just claim; the hon. Colonial Treasurer had said it was a question of increased taxation. [Mr. Richmond said it was merely a question of money which there were no funds to meet.] —Well, we will gl-e time to pay it let us have it by instalments (laughter). The hon. member was mistaken in saying it was the value of the maps ; it was the amount which Canterbury had paid as a debt incurred on account of maps and surveys. It was said that the question was mixed up with that of the transfer of the land and survey departments. In considering the payment proposed to be demanded from the Provinces, the Committee had regard to the fact that the property was only placed in their hands subject to the condition of its being handed Lack to the General Government when ever they should demand it: the Committee did not feel that it could call on the Provinces to pay for that "which could not be said to belong to them, They did not feel themselves called upon to decide the question of policy as to whether the departments should be administered by the General or the Provincial Governments It wa« quite certain that who ever administered the land, must have the property, or endless confusion and annoyance would be the result. It was certain that an honest debt had been preferred against the Colony which it was bound to pay. Mr. STAFFORD said the hon. member had certainly niosi unfairly charged the Government with a habit of getting out of their just debts, when the Government had always sought to meet all just claims upon them, and had even raked out unsatisfied claims, and placed them before the House. The insinuation of the hon. member were anything but complimentary to select committees, Mr. Stafford then stated the relative position of each Province with regard to the value of its property in the survey and land departments, to show that Wellington and Canterbury had a great advantage in that respect over the other Provinces. He believed the matter would bo considered and reported upon by the Committee in a very short time, and he hoped it would lay down some general principle for the guidance of the House in adjusting this diflicult question. Mr. OLLIVIEH said the two questions were quite distinct. The present question was whether the claim of Canterbury was a just one or not. Its justice had been admitted by Mr. Ligar and Mr. Marshman who had acted as arbitrators in the matter. The positions of Canterbury and the other Provinces were not identical. Canterbury had purchased its property with its own funds, while the payments of other Provinces for

those d epartments were included in the New Zealand Company’s Debt generally. The Province of Canterbury had no right, therefore, to be placed in the same position as other Provinces. If the General Government attempted to take back the property of that Province they would be in a position to say, “ You have no right to it; it is our own; it was not lent to us ” The amendment was then put and. upon a division being called for, it was carried by a majority of 15 to 6. Mr. DALDY moved,—That the Report of the Committee on the restriction on the Sale of Arms and Ammunition to be adopted by this House. Mr HALL hoped that the resolution would be modified to suit the position of the Southern Provinces. Such restrictions there were actually needless and were found exceedingly vexatious by the European settlers. Mr. STAFFORD thought it would bo very unadvisable to make any alteration, for the introduction of two different sets of customs regulations would have a most injurious effect, and besides he did not think the precautions were needless in the Middle Island for it was only the other day upon the arrival of the “ White Swan” that she brought intelligence of the seizure of a large quantity of arms at the Custom House at Nelson, which it was attempted to be passed as hardware He thought it absolutely essential that there should be one law on the subject; although the Government were quite willing so to increase the number of persons licensed to sell arms and ammunition, as would remove the difficulty and annoyance complained of. Mr. OLLIYIER said that would be falling in with the suggestion of the hon. member for Ohris'church Country District. A relaxation of the law was all they asked for. Mr. BRODIE believed that the restrictions had increased the smuggling of arms and amunitiou. Ho would throw open the gun and powder trade as freely as any other, and ho thought the natives had just as good a claim to the possession of arms as the Europeans themselves Mr. CARLETON suggested the withdrawal of the report. Mr. FOUSAITH could not atrree to that proposition. The House was a guardian of the great interests of the Colony, and he did not think they should stand aloof, and leave the subject unnoticed till it was forced upon their notice by some unforsecn danger. Mr. DALDY said he was completely in the hands of the House, either to withdraw the reporter press its adoption. The Committee had drawn it up after an examination of thirty-seven persons, and although the statements made were very conflicting, yet they all agreed on one point, that the removal ot the restrictions would be injurious and unwise (hear, hear). The question was then put and passedOrders of the Dat. The Report of the General Elections Committee on the ease of Mr. Cherry, was read and ordered to lie upon the table. The amendments proposed by his Excellency in the Auckland Reserves Bill were adopted; aud also the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Civil Service Bill. Mr. STAFFORD moved the second reading of the Gold Fields Management Bill. The hon. member commented upon the leading provisions of the Bill, which was read a second time,committed, and reported with amendments. The Regulation of Elections Bill was committed; the Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again to-morrow. The House then adjourned.

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 4, 1858

Pbbsbkt: Messrs. Curtis, Carleton, Hall, Stafford, Haultain, Richmond, Ollivier, Domett, Forsuith, Packer, Ward. Brown, Cargill, Beckham, East, Williamson, Dakly, Monro, Lee, Graham, and the Speaker. Mr HALL moved, in Committee of Supply,—That the Report of the Library and Printing Committee, dated the 3rd instant, he adopted by this House. After a brinf discussion the question was put and passed. Mr FORSAITH moved the adoption of the Re port ol the Conference on the Saving Banks Bill The report was adopted, and the Chairman of Committees appointed to signify the same to the Legislative Council. Mr. CARLETON moved, - That the evidence taken be/ore the Select Committee on the restrictions of the Sale of Arms and Ammunition, be printed. Mr. FORSAITH had no objection to the principle of the motion, but on the ground of economy he should oppose it. Mr. PACKER said the evidence was very conflicting and might if printed and transmitted to England produce an unfavourable impression upon the public mind there. Captain HAULTAIN said the advantages would not, in his opinioi, be equal to the expense of printing. ~ Mr. WARD proposed that a digest of the evidence should be printed. Mr. STAFFORD thought that suggestion would possibly meet the views of all parties. Mr. DALDY objected to it, on the ground that it would give offence to some of the persons examined, and would not present a fair statement of the evidence received ; he also objected to the printing of the whole on the score of expense. The motion was withdrawn. THE LAND PURCHASE QUESTION. Adjourned debate on the question,— That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that it should be lawful for the Governor in Council at any time to sell land for or on behalf of any Aboriginal Native or Natives, (provided always, that the said land shall have been surveyed, and roads laid out, under the authority of the Government); such lands to be sold by auction, and the purchasers to be required to pay to the Government an additional payment of not less than one-fourth of the purchase money before the issue of a Crown Grant ; and such payment to bo treated as Territorial Revenue of the Province wherein such land may be situated. Mr. FORSAITH (in the absence of Mr. Graham who moved the adjournment) said he should support the Bill not on the grounds which the hon. mover had taken, but because he considered the present system of acquiring land was not compatible with that position of dignity and influence which the General Government should occupy towards the native population. He spoke from experience in asserting that there had not been a single negotiation carried on with the natives for the sale of their lands which had not resulted in distrust, misunderstanding, and in some in-tances direct quarrels between the two parties. The Government did not possess that power of interfering in native disputes and difficulties with that authority which a disinterested umpire would be able to exercise. At present, the natives looked upon all Government interference as actuated by interested motives. Another reason he had for supporting the motion was the conviction that Government would find itself compelled to abandon the present system It could not be maintained for any great length of time (hear, hear). Hie progress of colonization could not be maintained under the present arrangement- The Government had gentlemen on the look out for land in those localities which were considered most advantageous for their purpose; but under the operation of the proposed system the settlers themselves would be made the judges of what land would be best suited to the interests of their particular Province. It would not swamp the land fund as had been suggested, for the purchaser was required) to pay so much to the Governmunt upon the issue of the Crown Grant. He hoped the House would adopt the resolution. Mr. PACKER could not allow so important a motion to pass without expressing his opinion. He believed that it was another thread of the same rope which the Government were endeavouring to unravel —the Native question. The Southern members felt more interest in that subject than perhaps their Northern (fiends gave them credit for (hear, hear). The Government had taken upon itself the responsibility of educating and elevating the native race, and he believed they should be educated in the knowledge of their rights and privileges with regard to their lands; and as he considered the motion, if carried out, would have that effect, he should support it. Mr. CARLETON supported the motion. Mr. LEE from his own personal experience obtained by actual conversation with influential natives on the subject of their lands, should support the motion, for he believed it would be generally acceptable to the native population, and work satisfactorily for the benefit of the Province. Mr. RICHMOND said it would be very difficult to exaggerate the importance of the motion. It was a subject to which ho had given considerable attention, as one of the greatest interest to the Northern Province. It was of vital importance to its prosperity to promote the rapid colonization of the North, and the Government was fully alive to the magnitude of the interests involved. He believed that native affairs could only be satisfactorily administered on the principle which he bad already enunciated—that of the real identity of interests between the two races (hear, hear). The present motion went to propose a definite method of adjusting the payment of the natives for their lands. The hon. mover believed that the system would induce natives to bring their land into the market. He (Mr, K.) entirely differed from him as to the causes which are prompting the natives to withhold their lands. The hon. member had spoken from hi* own too limited

experience on the subject; but let him look at the Waikato, and would he venture to say that the natives in that locality were retaining their land because they were not satisfied with the payment offered for them? Could he not see in that movement going on there the efforts of the natives to support their separate nationality? With them it was not a mere question of money, but it was a political question. What they feared was their own absolute annihilation as a people by the rapid influx of European immigration. All the money in the Treasury would not tempt them to part with their lands while such a fear existed in their minds. He might point out again to Coromandel. It was not on account of the price offered for their lands there that they withheld them, for in many instances the price was large; hut it was because they dreaded the effect on themselves of a large influx of golddiggers They had been told that its effect would be to sweep them off the face of the earth. Designing persons had instilled this idea into their minds; low boasting Europeans, and in some cases also, he had reason to know, traders of considerable standing. In some cases they might be holding for higher prices, but as a general rule their chief reason was a political one They feared being reduced by the powerful race surrounding them, to the servile condition of hewers of wood and drawers of water. He might refer them to the case of Wircmu Kingi, in his (Mr. Richmond’s) own Province:—he himself possessed little land, but he knew that his political influence depended upon his people retaining it, and therefore his (Wircmu Kingi’s) strongest advice 10 them was, “ Hold fast your lands ” The fact was, in this matter the hon. member for the City was looking at it through “ commercial spectacles.” He overlooked the fact that there were higher principles at work in human nature than the mere acquisition of money. Suppose for instance the political existence of the Europeans appeared to depend upon their retention of their land, would they be willing to give it up under any consideration? He believed that even if the experiment were tried it would fail to bring land into the market, but supposing it to have its full effect in that particular, what would be the consequence? He (Mr. R.) held that colonization was essentially the work of a Government, which could not safely give it up. He did not believe in giving up the regular settlement of the country, but the proposed resolution went to promote a system of colonization entirely at haphazard. And again it was declared that the land should be surveyed ; but, he would ask, how was it poss ble to make a satisfactory survey of land cut up into small patches. [Mr. Daldy: How was it done now?] —It would have a direct tendency to annihilate the land fund in this part of tke Colony The operation of the system would also be to spot the country with isolated settlements. Settlers would look out for the best pieces of land and the country would thus become spotted with small European settlements, which had been complained ofinthepresentsystera, but would not the proposed one tend to make itfar worse ? Now the General Government had the full control of forming Settlements, so far as having the power to direct when blocks should be purchased, and the Provincial Government had power to decide what blocks should be put into the market. The object of the Government was as much as possible to close up the country as they proceeded in their purchases. But what would be the effect of the hon. members’ scheme? There would be nothing to prevent a man from settling in the Waiheki block if he took a fancy to do so. And then what would be the next thing ? Why disturbances would arise between the Europeans and Natives, and the Government would be called upon to interfere. And then look for instance at Turanga on Coast. It had been settled by a number of Europeans, who had purchased from the Natives previous to the proclamation of the Queen’s sovereignty in the Island, and some who had squatted on the land in defiance of the law. The Natives were now threatening to expel them from the land, and were seeking to recover even that which had been purchased from them lie contended that irregular settlements would be made far more injurious and extensive by the scheme proposed. I* the country could be speedly settled under it, he should not object, but he saw no prospect of that. The expense of the present system had been urged. But the expense would not so far as he saw be lessened, for (as we understand) the expense of five acres of land, if disputes and litigation took place, might be as great as that of five thousand: the expense of surveys, he might mention also, would be very considerable On the whole, considering the expense, and that it would spot the country with settlements, and would fail in producing the results anticipated, he believed the proposed plan would belessadvantageousthan the present system of land purchases. Suppose again that the system should have the effect of bringing large blocks into the market —what would be the effect of that ? The land market would be glutted, for what was land without labour and capital ? It would follow that large tracts of land would pass into the hands of speculators, who could buy it up at a nominal price. He did not think it at all probable that it would bring large blocks of land into the market, but supposing ft should do so, that would be the result. But the real danger to be apprehended was the dispersed settlement of the country, which would become a mere matter of individual interest, instead of being of importance to the whole community. Again it would produce very serious drangement in the Land Purchase Department. He did not believe it would bring more land int i the market, but he was quite sure it would produce confusion in that department. He confessed was not in that state of effectual working which the Government de sired. He was not going to defend it, he considered that it had grown up under a vicious system. Hitherto the Commissioner had not an efficient surveying staff at his command. It was like telling him to make bricks without straw. Such a state of things was to be lamented, and the Government had taken steps to remedy it. The hon member complained of the smallness of the blocks purchased, but he could mention several of very large extent, one of 68,000 acres, and others nearly of equal size, and if little blocks were purchased, it was always with the intention of closing up the Crown Lands. The purchase of small blocks was.declined when it did not contribute to that object. In this manner the Government had been enabled to purchase land stretching from Hokianga to the Bay, and from Wangarie to Kaipara, —and further North from sea to sea, - that was from the East Coast to the Wairoa, and from thence to the sea. They were thus rapidly closing up patches of Native Titles in the Northern peninsula. And he might remark that a verv powerful chief on the Thames, who hitherto had resisted the sale of his land, was now willing to accede to the offers of the Government, (as we understood the chief Turia ) Thus it would be seen that a system of gradual accretion was going on. Of late the Natives had certainly shown a disposition to keep back their lands, but he believed that a change would take place, and that the re-action would be perhaps altogether as violent. It was impossible for any law to operate iu bringing the Natives to sell their lands, so long as the feelings he had mentioned existed in their minds. He fully believed that at some future time the system of direct purchase from the Natives would come into operation : indeed, in the Territorial Rights Bill, the Government had indicated such a scheme, and have provided for its future initiation, but he felt bound to oppose a system like the present, which would allow land to be brought into the market without any restrictions of power being exercised by the Government on the subject.

Mr. HALL was sorry the Government had opposed the resolution. The hon. member had introduced it last Session, and had been advised to defer it until the present one, and therefore it had not been hastily introduced. He could not of course speak from a practicable knowledge of the question, but he believed that as it was made optional with the Government cither to adopt or to depart if they thought necessary from the plan laid down, he did not think that they should refuse to try it as an experiment. The hon. member had referred to some cases in which it might be adopted with success. The principal objection of the hou. Colonial Treasurer was that it would spot the country with settlements - although such a result might have its evils, it would also have its advantages. It would introduce European influences into those districts, and would thus prepare the way for the establishment of good government and useful institutions amongst the Natives. He doubted if much danger of disputes or quarrels was to be apprehended in such cases, for when a Native sold land to a European he generally took him under his especial protection, and made him his protegee. He hoped the House would support the resolution at least as a temporary experiment. Mr. DOMETT said the principal of the motion had been already recognised in the Territorial Rights Bill, which prepared the way for its introduction with certain limitations. He looked upon that measure as wise, politic, and statesman like. It would provide for making that experiment which the hon. member for Christchurch Country District desired to sec, and it also had the additional recommendation of doing it m a regular and systematic manner. He did not see the necessity for the present motion. The hon. member proposed to give power for the introduction of the system without such limitations. Ho thought this very objectionable; of course it was urged that the motion only left it to the discretion of Government to introduce it or not—and therefore it could do no harm. But he feared the real object was to get the confirmation of this House to the principle of direct purchasing from the native* ; and that the moral lupport of th* House’s opinion to that *ffect might be brought in aid ofthos* who were agitating for this license. Ho did not feel disposed to back them in their presence upon Government by giving such a confirmation and should therefor* vote against the motion.

On the motion of Mr. WILLIAMSON the debate was then adjourned until to-morrow, to allow the non. member for the Suburbs and other* an opportunity of •peaking to the question. [to B> OONTIHUBD.} MESSAGE. The following message from his Excellency to the House of Representatives was received and read on Wednesday last:— " The Governor believe* that it will be satisfactory to the Home of Repretentatives to be informed before the dote of the Session at to hit intention! with reference to the place where the next meeting of the Atsembly will be held. In the Setsion of 1830 he informed the Route of Representatives that he had no hesitation in saying that, unleai ether jvise advised, he would, if then honored with the commission which he then held, summon the Atsembly to meet at Wellington on it* flth Session, and continue to summon it alternately at that place and Auckland. « in order to enable the Governor to fulfil this promise it appeared necessary: flrtt, that provision should be made for the expense to be incurred ; and secondly, fhr the appointment of a Lieutenant-Governor to reside at Auckland during his absence. •• The Governor is satisfied that the General Assembly will make provision for the necessary expense* attendant on holding the next Session at whatever piece he may appoint, and therefore sees no difficulty on that subject “ In reference to the second point, correspondence betwee her Majesty's Secretary of state and the Governor has already been transmitted to the House of Representatives. The Secretary of State thinks that ail the object* strictly requisite might be attained by empowering the Governor to nominate an officer, not a* Lieutenant-Governor but with some other title, on whom the neceseary powers to ect during the Governor’s temporary absence might be conferred, and to whom the Secretary of State think* that payment at the rati of six hundred pounds a year (£flOO) would be sufficient- “ The Governor propose* to act on the authority conveyed by this dispatch, and appoint the officer designated by her Majesty to succeed him, in case of hi* death or absence from the Colony, to act for him during hi* absence from Auckland, and he is satisfied the General Assembly will make the necessary provision for his so doing at the rate suggested by the Secretary of State. <• The Governor has carefully considered the question as to what powers should be conferred on the officer to be thus appointed, and is advised that it is not necessary to obtain a legislative enactment on the subject. •• The chief purpose for which it is necessary that the Governor should be represented in Auckland it the transaction of affairs arising out of the relations of the local government with the natives, rather than the exercise of any power conferred by the Legislature. The affairs require constant attention, but unless unforsecn circumstances should occur the appointment of the senior military officer, as proposed, will enable the Governor to absent himself during a session of the Assembly without detriment to the public service. • < it is therefore the Governor’s intention, not having been otherwise advised, to convene the Assembly for its next Session at Wellington. •• Thomas Gobs Bkowkk, •• Governor. •• Government House, “ August 4, 1858.”