MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO CONSIDER THE PENSIONERS’ PETITION.

New Zealander, Volume 11, Issue 989, 6 October 1855, Page 3

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO CONSIDER THE PENSIONERS’ PETITION.

FRIDAY, AUGUST 31st, 1855. Pm sent —Messrs. Carleton, Taylor, Mackay, I’orsaiih, Sewell, (Chairman.) On the motion of Mr. Carleton, the following Petition wus read ; Auckland, August 17th, 1855. Tu the Honorable the Speaker and Members of the Honorable Ihe House ij {I ’presenla ives. Tho bumble petition of Her Majesty’s the undersigned veteran Pensioners— Most respectfully aheweih that they have spent the (lower of their ago and Me in their country’s service, and that in consideration thereof tin y were nvvnided a pension in proportion to tin !r respective service, which pension they should not ho deprived ol unless they were convicted of felony, or guilty of gross violence or outrage towards ihe persons employed in paying pensioners. Your petitioners further shew tint s>y proclamation in the War Office Ciiculars in the ye is 1817—48 —19 they were encouraged to emigrate v. uh their families to Ibis Colony, and certain reward.-, held out to them for doing so, as will ho so. n on reference to their printed instructions on that head, and other documents in their possession, which wPI prove to your Honorable House llntl fairii has been broken with them, and trial uncalled for coercive and vindicate mea-ures have been suhstitu- (■ d and r sowed to, instead of hj irae, as intended by their most gracious , Sovereign and liberal country. Snch treatment had never a precedent in any branch of Her Majesty’s service. Punishment inflicted, pensions suspended, and not permitted to petinon the higher authorities, or much loss to speak in defence of their rights, or appeal to n Court of Enquiry. Your humble petiiionurs now pray that the Representatives of the People in your Honorable House, will entertain the prayer of their petition, and grant them a Coiniiiitee of Enquiry, in w hose presence they will be permitted to vimlica e their rights and satisfy the Committee of your honorable House, tLat they Lave fulfilled on their part, ns long as they were permitted, I the several duties imposed ou them hv their respective j engagements in con ing to this Colony, and that they j have not foifeited hy any misconduct of theirs, their ; pensions, which have been suspended, nor the cottage I ami acre, which they have been expelled from. For which favor your bumble and obedient servants, now Her Majesty’s civil subjects, electors tn the Town and Suburbs of Auckland, shall ever pray. John Bouton, formerly Scrj. ant in 11.M. Itith Rcgf. Edward 11 a nrs, late Color Serjeant 23 rd 11 \V, Furilliers, M.vmrw Met oumick, late 25th R»gt. foot. dons Hool’. late Serjeant .‘lflih Regt. Question pul—That Dr. Bacot b'e called in and examined. Agreed to. Dr. Bacot examined ; —1 was Staff Assistant Surgeon j in the army, attached to the Pensioner force in medical charge. I have been in New Zealand seven year- - , | attached to the Pensioner fo*c<*. I know the Regulations under which the Pensioners came out. (Regulations produced.) Question pul —That Serjeant Hoop lie examined. Agreed io. John Hoop, late Sergeant in the 391h Regiment of foot, examined. 1 came U* New Zealand in *53.41. At that, time ! was a Pensioner. ! was discharged in 1815. 1 have mv discharge. (Discharge produced, with testimonial of good character.) After I left the s rvice 1 took a Piddle House in Liverpool, ami k**i*l it (or twelve months then gave it up, rumov.cl lo lialtast in Ireland and opened a shoomnking shop. There 1 enrolled myself iu the New Zealsud l*Vucib!es. Was married and had no children. I have none. Mv wife came with in*. When 1 went to receive my pension in 1H47 a card was posted up for volunteers for the New Zealand Fencih’e Service. The Condi l ions were posted up. ono of the conditions that I should have a cottage and acre of bind on my arrival, one fourth oi which should be cultivated. The Regulations now produced and printed were those under which 1 vohmtered. 1 have no matter of complaint on account of anything before my arrival in New Zealand. 1 have complaints to make after my arrival. 1 was not put in posse.-siou ol my cottage and acre. Oa my arrival 1 applied to my Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Hickson fur mv cottage and acre of land (lie w s the Officer of fhedcincliment.) He told me there was nono for me. 1 applied to Lieutenant Hickson for leave to loiivdnin Auckland to follow my business. 1 obtained leave. I followed my business of a shoemaker end have done so ever since. I provided my own lodgii ga and hou-o room at my own cost. 1 preferred slopping in Town. 1 considered it pr.'lVrratde to stop in Uowa to going to one of the distant Pensioner Villages. Oinhuhu was the Village to which I was assign'd. T here was no house for me there, I never had any grievance to complain of till Major Kenny cam**. That was about three years afterwards, I considered that the advantage of living in Town and carrying on my business was equivalent to immediate occupation of my cottage, hut 1 looked forward to having my cottage and acre when the proper lime came. Whilst I was in Auckland I dal some military duties. I went o.d to Otahnhu, helped I Sergeant McAnulty to drill a company previous to going to Onehunga to he inspected. That was the first inspeclioa, This was annual J .ty.

SATURDAY Ist SEPTEMBER, 1855,

Present —Messrs. Carleton, Forsailh, Taylor, Mackav, Sewell (Chairman.) John 14 nop - Examination continued:—l had still to continue my Sunday parade at Qiahuhu. On tins 18’h September, 1850, I addressed the memorial to hi* Excellency praying to he excused from attending church parade nt Otahulm (produced a copy of the memorial) I forwarded the memorial through Lieutenant Hickson. He had to forward it through Major Kenny. Major Kenny, refused to forward it. I never received an answer to it. I received an answer from Major Kenny that lie would not forward it, Jla leccommended me to take my discharge fiom the force, a.id that I should get off’by paying £ls. 1 sent in through Lieutenant Hickson sick Certificates, both before and after sending in my memorial. (Copies of certificates produce.) I was at that linn* tillering from rheumatic gout. I am occasionally still ; i v. as 100 in.ivu-ll to walk to Otahu-

j i.u; ii i.h af'iiiu mu* n.il-'.s ii eie, and nine miles baik* l 1 wji» un.bl- to j ••ilorni that du y. I sent in a medical i certificate which Major Kenuy refused to receive, I received ir on m> C(.mit'ii! ctitijj Officer intimation that I must do one of tlnee tilings, either a'leml my dutv, 'receive my discharge, or he dismissed. I conceived | that it would behest to submit to the alternative of *ny | in" for my passage ami getting my discharge, 1 was j forced to do this. I never made a remonstrance, J wailed for time. 1 am not aware of any tiling in the 1 Regulations to prevent my appealing to tin* civil r.u- , thori iv,s. J signed u document giving up all c aitnsen the Government; I never kept a copy of it ; 1 do not remember its contents. It was to the effect that 1 ga*e ; up all claim on the Government; I did not understand j that 1 hereby gave up my claim to the cottage and acre. I 1 was obliged to sign the paper, Major Kenny told me if 1 did not sign it that I should be dismissed from tha force. That induced me to sign it. There are some advantages belonging to the service which I understood 1 was giving up; I did not understand 1 was giving up my cottage and acre. When my seven years was up I applied to Lieutenant Hickson to be putin possession of my cottage and acre. He told me I must apply to Head Quarters. I did so. I applied to Major Kenny, never received any reply. 1 made out a memorial to Governor Wynyard, requesting him to put me in possession. 1 remember Ins answer, th it he could not do anything for me, that I had given up all claim. I was never put in possession of my cottage and acre. 1 was told off' an acre, and I ditched it and paid for the partin cultivation, part was done by the Government, half was uncultivated. 1 paid for a quarter. I paid the Sergeant 12s. for the cultivation of the extra quarter one. I never got possession of if. 15y Mi. Carleton : - Q. At the time Major Kenny succeeded to the command had you any indulgence from Lieut. Hickson? A. I had. Q. Was that withdrawn from you by Major Konny ? A. Yes, Q. Was it after or before you had sent in a sick certificate that you were reduced from your rank of Sergeant ? A. After. Q. Did Major Kenuy threaten you that unless you put in your resignation in writing to any claim on the Government he would have you struck off the Pensioner list altogether ? A. He did. Q- On what occasion was this ? A, On several occasions. Q. What was the name of the medical Officer who signed your certificate I A. Dr. Philson of the 58th He.ini tit. Q. As long as you have been i|i the service were you evi r aware of a sick certificate not being sufficient excuse for non-attendance at parade ? A. Never a Doctors certificate is enough upon any parade. Even a review parade. Q. Aie you aware of any instructions from the War Cilice, to stop pensioners passage money in case of their being deprived of their cottage and arre ? A. There a none in my general agreement hut 1 havo heard of such. Copy of a Utter from Lieutenant Hickson, Xew Zealand I'cncibles, lu John Hoof, New Zealand Fenelbte Sereenn t. Sergeant John Hoop, Otahulm, July 17, 1851. You certificates of continued illness can no longer exempt yon from the performance of military duty. I have therefore to repeat what I have already informed yon that you must select one of the following alternatives, namely, to perform your dutv, as an enrolled pensioner of’the New Zealand Fencihlos, or to withdraw therefrom by the terms prescribed hy the Secretary of War, or to incur the penally of dismissal from the force in the event of your continuing to neglect your duty. (Signed) J. 11. Hickson’, Staff Oilloer. John McAmtltv, To be signed and returned by Sergeant Hoop. (Signed) John lloor. COPY OF MEMORANDUM. 4th Division, 3st Battallion N. Z, F. Memorandum With reference to No. 2 of Battalion orders dated OncKunga, 7th August, 1851, Pensioner John Hoop is hereby requested to attend at Otahulm with as little delay as possible, for the purpose of Landing over to Lieutenant Hickson the arms, clothing, accoutrements, etc., of a Sergeant’s appointments in bis charge, for the use of his successor Daniel Wright, and of receiving those of a private. This memorandum is to bo forwatded by the first opportunity to private John iioop by whom it will be signed and returned. (Signed) J. H. Hut son, Staff Officer (Signed) John Hoop, Otahuhu, August 12th, 1851, To !iis Excellency Sir George Grey, K. C. B. Governor in chief of New Zealand and its dependencies, etc., etc., etc. T he memorial of John Hoop, lata Sergeant of the 3‘dth Regiment, Now belonging to Lieutenant Hickson's company, Ist battalion New Zealand Pensioners. That your memorialist on landing in the colony at Auckland obtained permission from Lieutenant Hickson to reside in town in consequence of which he purchased au allotment of ground in Queen-street, and built a house and shop on it at an expense of £501). That yonr memorialist is obliged to walk to Olaluvhu every Sunday for the purpose of attending church parade (a journey of about 14 miles.) That your memorialist most humbly begs that your Excellency may take Lis case into your kind consideration and have him excused from attending church parade at Otahulm as it is a great journey on the Sabbath day. That your memorialist never omitted attending Divine Service during the time lie was allowed to parade in Auckland and will always continue so to do every Sunday if excused from going to Otahulm, Your memorialist most humbly pray that your Excellency will grant this his request, and your memorialist is iu duty bound will ever pray. (Signed) John Hoop, 1 lih September, IB3‘h To his Excellency, I Sir George Gtey. (Letter enclosing Petition to his Excellency, Sir George Grey.) Honored Sir, 1 humbly beg that you will forward through the proper channel to his Excellency S;r George Grey, K. C . I!.. Governor of New Zealand, etc., the enclosed memuriil from Your most humble and obedient servant, (Signed) John Hoot’. To Lieutenant Hickson, Ottihuhu, 18th September, 1850, Question put that John Bolton bo examined. Agreed to. John Bolten—l served in two Regiments 20 years altogether, was last in the loth Infantry, was discharged in t' e year 1851. Was a Sorgoint the greater part of the time, had been reduced to a private. Was a private when discharged, Discha>g<d produced. Chancer goo I. 1 landed in New Zealand, in May 1852. About November 1861, volunteered into the Fenohile pensioners, under the printed regulations produced. The promise held out hy the regulations induced me to come. Brought my wife and family, 3 children, one 12, agirl t! and an infant 2 months. When I arrived in New Zealand in May 1862. Major Kenny came on hoard were mus ered ou dock. Major Kenuy said io us hat any of us who were tradesmen might stop and see if we could get suitable employment in Auckland. I asked Captain llaultain, an Officer who came on hoard with Major Kenny, whether providing i was to put inv name down to stop in the town if I should still he allowed to have my cottage and acre. I understood him to sar yes, and that we should bo assembled at Onehuuga some time alter. By the Chairman : Q. Did Major Kenny promise you should not forfeit tour fight to your cottage and acre of land hy sopping in Auckland ? A. He did. I stopped in Au kHndJahout three weeks or so We were then ordered to attend on parade nt Major Kenny’s office at Onehungn. I attended. He said to me. “ any of you men who put join names down to stop in town, (Auckland) 1 will g veyou another chance, you shall not lose yonr collage and acre of land hy slopping-in ihe town.” The practice was this. When first we landed we all of us had io draw for what settlement wo should go to. Some drew (or ono settlement some fur another. 1 and sumo others did not draw at till, considering that it might he belter wonh while to stop in the town ami follow my trade than to go to ono of the settlements, By the Chairman : (J, Dal you understand, that hy not drawing for one of the sett eniints you gaveup your right to your collage and acre of laud/ A. 1 understood that I did not, because Major Kenny said, ho would see us another day, and fit we did not like the tow n, he would pul us in po?session ol’our cottage and acre of land Examination continued : About thiee-weeks after the parade at Onehuuga we were ordered to parade at I'anmure, there to he settled and to receive purls of onr pensions. 1 appeared there and after being settled with hy Cap ain llaultain. I asked him what settlement I was to have my col n-e t.nd acre ol laud, jouwillgo to Hawick to Captain

Smith, ho will tell you oil a cottage and acre of land, and you may thank yomsrlf for your impertinence in addressing Maj rKwiny on I Hiding, or you wot.l I Lara liinl year conage and acia of land in Onebunga. I went the following Frday to ('aptain Smi hj at Huwick. Unsaid lie was very busy that ilav, bo could not put me in possession, that Sunday, if I would conio next Sunday I e won)' 1 , 1 return "n the following Sunday, hogged him ugini to put me in j cs.iessiun, he s id I was a great annoyance. I should have it next Sunday. He w is not prepared to trll me ot my collage and acre. I went again the third Sund>v. Hesudyou must come si me oilier time, lam not read.'. 1 then said, “ will you give tna permission to ament my s-lffiom paraie, for 2or 3 Sundays ns the journey was to long.” Ho said, “ I will give you no li icriy from parade but if you think proper, you can parade in Auckland." I considered it a great favour. I continued to parade ia Auckland. I considered it a great favour. I continued to parade in Auckland some mouths. (Ta hearing that Captain Smith was about going to England I spoke to him six or seven times, begging him to put ma in possession cf my cottage and acre of land. He lold me 1 was'a very troublesome character. Why did I not take my cottage and acre when I fist arrived. He left me in tie street and never gave ma any other answer. 1 never got my cottage and acre. I ne»er applied to Major Kenny. 1 und. rstood it was of no tine. He gave me no answers to applications. I continued intruding regularly at the barracks in Auckland, ti l within G months ago, whe . 1 d c a.tinned. I here was no one to parade us, no one to call over ihs roll, neither officer or non-commissioned officer. After Captain Smith left, Captain McDonald got no charge of the Auckland force, he c me in from liowick to parade. NV« were not there for the first three Sundays. The-till Sunday some of tiie pensioners saw him coming, and made the be-t of ilu*ir wav to the barracks. I did not happen to be one, was consequently absent th* 4'h Sunday. I and several other* were struck off the force and put under stoppages. 1 afterwards saw Captain McDonald and went on pr.rad*. He told me he waa very sorry for me, he would reccomend me to II jor Kenny (or reinstatement. 1 asked if he would r*qutr» me to attend parade regularly for the future as I was struck off. He said, the rejioil was not given to the Horse Guards yet, and if anythig would sooth it down it would he mv regular attendance at panel*. I attended regnlurly till the next pension day, when I went for my pension to Captain McDonald. He said, “ your pension is stopped, you’ll only get half your pension for not attending at pande. ” 1 told him it was a great punishment, as there had 1 sen no parade formed for some months previous to his taking command, and if h* bad given a caution that we we'O t a'tend regularly I would attend regularly. He said, I will now give thu caution, any of the men wboare absent from this time I will report ami they will be struck off. I never got my cottag and acre »; hod. Committbc Meetivo, September 3hd, 1855. Present—Messrs. Carlelon, Taylor, Sewell (Chairman.) The Chairman rrad the following copy of letter from Maiot Kenny. Major Kenny presents his compliments to tbo Chairman of lb • Committee appointed by the House of Representatives to examine into and report upon certain alleged grievances contained in a Petiton from Enrolled Pension-Ts of the New Zealand Keucibles, and ,irr thanking the Chairman for bis courteous note of the dlst August, requests lie will have the goodness to furnish him with a co y of the Petition in question, as Major Kenny is not aware of any civil rights and privileges to wh ch the Pensioners of liia New Zealand Fencililes, us such, are entitled, excepting those which are contingent upon the performance by them of certain military duties under tho conditions on which they wera engaged for service in New jM'aland. If the alleged grievances of Pensioners to which tlm Chairman has alluded in Lis note, are those to which reference has been made in the local newspapers, Major Kenny regrets to say that it would be inconni-tent with his position to be present at an cnquiiy into grievances which, even on the assumption that they had any existence would fall solely under the jurisdiction of tbo Right Honourable the Secretary at War. Onehunga, Ist September, 1565. Question put, That Major Kelt ay be furnished with a copy of thi Petition. A greed to. Question put, '1 list the examination be renewed, and that Joseph Symes be called in. Joseph Svntes, examined—l am a corporal in lha N tt Zca'and Fen tides service. I came to New Zealand in 1837, in October. 1 was living in Ireland that year. 1 signed articles to serve in the New Zex anil Fenefbfes service, 1 think on the 3.)1h June ia tbit y**. r , I served in the tind Dragoon Guilds. My disc Largo is dated the 17th June, IS-17. Discharge produced. Character good. I then went to my business as a tailor at Limerick, Continued in that about 5 years, until tbe enrollment of the local force. 1 went into the local Inter, remained there till 1547, when i volunteered to come to New Zealand. I first learnt that a voluu’ver cor| s was to be foimed when on parade at Linnrick, The regulations were frequently read to us by the Staff Officers. Gieat promises were held out to us. Tbe regulations produced arfl the same hs those I cinie town under. The promise of a cottage and acre of land one of the inducements to me—till 1 arrived in New Zealand, I expected this cottage and ace. When I arrived found no c-ttage ready. Mas obliged to lie uu the fern, or under a wooden shod. My family were with me, a wife and sis children. I only occupied that shetl f >r a few days. Worn as puls in a written statcive.it. Question pip, that svid statement be entered on the minutes. Agreed to. Statement to follow. Auckland, August 29tb, IS 5, Statement put in by Joseph Symes. On the Pensioners arriving at their respective settlements from ship board it was my lot to be sent to Howick, some fifteen miles from Auckland. The day after our arrival there, i applied to mj Staff Officer for leave to proceed to Auskl.tn 1 to procure employment that would enable me to support my family as X being a tradesman, could not do so working ar road making. I received for answer that no man should leave tbe s-ttlement until the different roads planned out should be completed. Within a few days after. His Excellency the Governor visited our settlement, I appealed to him for leave as on a former occasion to my Staff Officer. Hi« Excellency granted mo leave to ptocoed to Auckland, which 1 diil the same day. A few (lava after, an order was read to mo that I was to attend Divine service parades with the troops in garrison, which order I strictly complied with, bom • shirt tune after I was employed by a person who sent me to attend to an order from Hi* Excellency Governor Grey relative to work required (my trade being that ofa tailor), His Excellency knew me and inquired, had I got employment, I replied in the aftrmative, lie replied that ho was pleased at it. and shewed an interest in my welfare. 1 thought it a good opportunity to «tr.te that as to a cer:aia degree j was a soldier, and as the indulgence ho was kind enough to favour me with, may some day be wrested from me, I bagged ha would be pleased to give a written pass under hij hand, which won d bo strong in my favour under almost any circumstances. His Excellency without tbe Lust hesitation signed a pass to the effect that 1 bad leave to resile in Auckland to stood Divine service parades with the troops in garrison, and that j sborld attend the periodical dribs when called on so to do and that I should he in posaestiou cf this indulgence without I should abuse i’. On the strength of this indulgence, 1 made it my object to select from Several opportunities presenting themselves to enter into business. Mv lirst was to seh c respectable masters for a y three eldest -oils. and am glad to say 1 succeeded, I next entered into business of my own trade, when some months after I received from my Staff Officer an order to attend Divine service parades at liowick, and that the indulgence granted hy Sir Goorge Grey was tio good. Major Kenny having cancelled all such. The intelligence overwhelmed me, 1 knew not what to think, 1 rend my pass over anti over amt cttii.iin that £ bad not abused the indulgence it youveyed, 1 wax determined to stand to its inclining. 1 was threatened by M-jr Kenny, by my Staff Officer, if 1 absented myself a certain number of p trades, (1 think three) I should he disim-sed the 'orce, deprived of my cottage and acre ot land, besides nay the whole amount lor bunging my l.unih to New Zealand. 1 found only one alternative, to address ills Excellency the Governor, a memorial to address His Excellency the Governor was gat up and signed by about I I men situated similarly to mysell. but before a reply could reasonably he expected, i for one was dismissed the force and subject to nil urn penalties attalched, 1 them wrote a most re-peciful memorial to Sir Gcerge Grey and enclosed the pass he gave me oa a former occasion, imploring him to take my case into coosiueration, reminding him I was in business in Auckland; and my three sons .-0 situated that a fathers *ye was requiredTu keep them from and vice, and to think what a pecuniary 10-s I should sustain by throwing up my business, then looking promising, rind going to reside at the settlement, or starting every Sunday morning 15 miles, ami Laving a navigable river to cross u and irom that settlement in all weathers, my constitution cuu ft nor support >uc!i .-xenion at my U"e, and waiting wiiu gri-.n anxiety a favourable reply. ,

1 beg to stale there exists in the new regulations a clause speaks thus—“lf a Pensioner shall be dismissed the force for misconduct, and his subsequent conduct shall entitle him to be recommended, tie may be reinstated/' Go (lie strength of this clause, I applied to my Slalf O cur beggug Hie favour to be so recommended, bo complied with my request in the strongest language, as also did the oiliccr commanding the battalion in my favour, they both recommended me to be reinstated, but Major Kenny refused the recommendation saying be would not undo anything he bad done. Some months after this 1 was ordered to appear at Major Kenny’s residence at Gpehuuga, fo hear some papers read relative to my dismissal, on my part 1 was expecting a favourable reply lo im memorial to Sir George Grey. On my arrival there, I found a number of pensioners for (he same purpose, we were brought into a large room, Major Kenny began with these words “Now men, I will not allow any one ol you lo say one word, and if one of you attempt la say anything I will turn him from the room and lin'd means to punish him for such conduct.” On the following pay day, I was told, my pension would be paid only in part deductions were ordered lo pay for the passage of my family, to thejamoimt of about seventy pounds sterling. I stated lo my Stall' Officer 1 doubled Major Kenny’s power “lo slop any part of my pension, 1 refused to lake any without all, consequently 1 have received “no pension for the last lour years. 1 beg to state in conclusion, I never received any intimation that Sir George Grey replied lo my lust memorial containing my pass which I forwarded through the Post Office to Wellington. Joseph Svmrs, Pensioner from the 2nd Dragoon Guards. Gd. per diem. Wymlham-streel, Auckland, Examination continued.—About 18 months after I had been here i was put in (osscssion of a cottage at llowick. 1 was pul in possession oi my acre about 0 months after my arrival, no part of it was cleared, 1 cleared it myself, some men were sent lo assist me in clearing it, and were paid by the Government, that was lo fulfill the contract for the Government to clear a pari of l!ie land, I subsequently cleared (ho whole myself. At the expiration of about a year 1 went lo llowick lo try to live there. 1 bad not my collage assigned to me. t got materials and built a but for myself. When the hut was ready my family and three children were with me, throe I loft in town. 1 continued in this hut till some six months afterwards, when my cottage was given me. 1 returned to reside in llowick about two years. 1 carried on my business as a tailor. 1 used lo go lo Auckland to got wotk and carry the work back to llowick. Sometimes 1 used lo stop a week in Auckland at work, at lasl I found i could not live in the Settlement under the circumstances the work did not support my family. I got leave from my Slatf Officer to proceed lo Auckland again, which I did. That was about two years after ! had gone toiFowick. The permission was not in writing, he told me by word of mouth “ Go by all means,” and lo leave my address with him so that if he wanted me lie might know where to find me. lie (old me I was lo attend parade at Auckland as on Hie former occasion as under Sir George Grej’s permission. When I left llowick 1 locked my collage up. My sons assisted me in cultivating the piece of land. Wc used lo go from Auckland to llowick lo work on the land. 1 continued to allend parade at Auckland. 1 had not been in town above three weeks when I received an order by my Staff Officer requiring me to attend Divine Service parade at llowick, 1 relied on the liberty S had before. It was then that 1 stale, 1 was overwhelmed with the intelligence and i resolved lo abide by my lirsl indulgence. 1 was dismissed after having served four years out of the seven. My collage and land were taken from me. It is now occupied by another pensioner. 1 have applied for it, they -refused lo give it up. By Mr. Carleton Q. Was it part of your agreement in England that you should reside continuously on your acre of land? A. It was never pointed out to me. Q. Are you aware of any instructions issi ed from the War Office (o slop men’s passage mo: ncy in case of their being deprived of their collage and acre? A. No. By Mr. Taylor— Whal induced you In ask Sir George Grey for indulgence? A. I believed dial he, as GovcG) nor, had.the power (o grant indulgence. By Mr. Mackay— Whal is the amount of your pension ? A. Six pence per diem. By Mr. Taylor— Did you believe that your agreement had been fulfilled by your being sent to llowick, a distance of about 18 miles from Auckland ? A. Certainly not, we supposed the distance would he a miles from Auckland. By the Chairman— Whal passage in (he Kegulalions led yon (o form that belief? A. i so understood the Regulations when they were read lo me. By Mr. Carleton— Did any pensioner officer refuse lo go lo bis .station, on (ho ground of his house not being ready? Question pul, Whether the above question be put. ~ Noes —Mr. Mackay, Mr. Taylor, The Chairman. Ayes—Mr. Carleton. Question not pul, Matthew McCormick—Was private in (he 23 lb Foot. Left the army in 1840. 1 was enrolled in England for the New Zealand Fencible Corps in 1847, arrived in Auckland in November of that year. Got copy of printed conditions before embarking in England. 1 was told off to the village of llowick. Did not got my callage and acre of land. Was pul inlo a woaiherhoardcd shed with my wife and one child. Alter Ibis 1 was told off la an acre, where I built a raupo but at my own expense as my wife was about being confined. Coniinued lo attend Sunday parades for lb months. After that lime I got leave from Major Gray io reside in Auckland and attend (he usual parades there, which I did constantly for three years, besides the drill of .12 days each year. After Dial period .Major Kenny got (he command, when he gave an order that any man who was four Sundays absent in a quarter should forfeit his acre and colijigp as well as pay for the passage of himself wile and family oullo the colony. 1 have been deprived of my cottage and acre of land. Edward Hynes—l was Serjeant in (he 2anl Royal Welsh Fusilecrs, discharged in November, 1842. Volunteered into the New Zealand Fencible Service in 1849, from Peubroke Dock, S. Wales. Was Stall’Drill Serjeant lo (be iloval Dockyard Ballalion, Pembroke. 1 got 2s. id. (two shillings and four pence) a day besides my pension. Was induced lo come lo New Zealand by circulars from the Horse Guards Inal i might make a home for myself and my children. Had a wife am! three children. I expected my collage and acre of land. Would not have come otherwise. Arrived in New Zealand in Sept., 1849. Did nol gel my collage and acre. 1 here were no cottages built for the company 1 belonged to, nor lam! set apart. Was appointed for Onehunga. 1 applied continually for two and a half years for my collage ami acre. Never got it. The last petition they considered was an insult and on

that account they shuck me off, ant! pul me under stoppages of my pension. 1 lived in Auckland Ific whole time in my own bouse, at rny own expense bought the land and built the house myself. I performed military duties at Onehunga. 1 bad to walk there and back-even day on drill days. Was occasionally ill. NN a.never absent from drill lor three successive Sundays for lire two anti a half years. Discharge produced. Very gcoJ character. By Mr. Carleton — Q. Were you sometimes absent from parade at Onehunga? A. 1 was sometimes sick absent. Q. Had you a sick certificate? A. Vcs, 1 had one signed by Dr. Fox, I*. M. O. another from Dr. Matthew. Q. Were you ever aware of a sick certificate not being sufficient excuse for non-attendance at parade? A. it was always a sufficient excuse. By Mr. Taylor— Q. Weru ton ever offered lo be pul in possession of your cottage and acre? A. At Hie end of about two years, on a pension day, Capt. Ilaullaiu told me that my cottage was now pul up at Onehunga, ami dial any day I chose to lake my family out,! might gel the key. Neither flooring nor chimney were in. 1 told him as soon as the floor and chimney were in 1 would come. It was never offered me again. 1 enquired after it, afterwards, Lml was soon afterwards dismissed. Question pul, Thai Col. Gray’s evidence be taken. Lieut.-Col. Gray examined, —1 came out in command of the Pensioner F’oice I am aware of the Regulations, and that it was one of the conditions that Hie pensioners should have a cottage and acre of land on arrival, that condition was not fulfilled for a considerable lime after their arrival —in no indance. The earliest date at which any of the pensioners received their collage was about 5 or G months after arrival. During the intermediate time they wore housed in slu (is erected at the expense of Government, weather boarded not shingled, neither wind nor waterligli. Their wives and families w'erc all in (he same place. They were so bad dial 1 applied for native raupo whares to be built for them instead, which was done by the men themselves, with some native assistance, (he men receiving usual wages. They suffered great discomfort. There was an understanding j with the men that they should nol be placed ala I greater distance Ilian five miles from a place • where they could obtain employment, that the opportunity of employment should be placed within their reach within a distance of live miles. At the distant settlements there was no such opportunity of employment many of the pensioners came into Auckland in consequence to obtain employment. I decided that Hie men in Auckland should attend Divine Service theie, that was considered to be in lieu of their attendance at their respective villages. William Butcher —Was discharged from (he Grenadier Guards in 1844. Discharge exhibited. Gharaclor very good. Joined the New Zealand Fencible Corps at Tilbury Fort, in August, 1844, and arrived in Auckland in November of that year, was (old off lo the village of llowick with Major Gray’s Company. I got my cottage and acre in June or July the following year. I was one of the first who got their cottages. I have attended all (he parades up to Hie month of November, 1848. 1 was dismissed the force in December of that year owing to a trifling dispute about the sum of Is. Gd. (one shilling and six-pence) between me and one of the Sergeants who was an overseer over the road parly. In consequence of this 1 lost my cottage and acre, and was pul under stoppages for myself and wife to pay for our passage out. John Hardy. —I was a private in the Ist Royals for seventeen years, and discharged in 1844. Was enrolled a private in (he New Zealand Fencible Corps, at Glasgow, in May of Hie same year. (Character very good and possessed of two good conduct badges.) When 1 arrived at Auckland, was posted lo the pensioner village at llowick, and had to live with my wife and five daughters for several weeks in a weather-hoarded shed, I got my acre in about live weeks after reaching llowick, and then got a raupo vvhare my share of which cost I/, ss. in which 1 lived with my family for nearly two vears. After that lime I got into my cottage. I never missed a parade in llowick when living there. I lived there for about four years. After (hat I got leave to come lo Auckland because I could not gel broad fur my family at llowick. Wei and dry, when able from my state of health, 1 went to llowick from Auckland to attend parade and Divine Service. I attended regularly until within G months of (he period of my service being up. Daring pari of Ibis time I was laid up with Rheumatism and Dysentry. 1 was fully seven weeks ill of (hose complaints. 1 gol a sick ceiiilicalc from Dr. Thompson of Ilia o8(h Kegl., which ! expected would have excused me from allending parades. Ga.nl. Smith Hie commanding officer al llowick refused taking Hie certificate, because Dr. Thomson did nol belong lo (ho force. 1 then walked out to llowick to get a certificate from Staff Surgeon Bacot which was not refused, but Major Kenny sent for me lo Onehunga. When 1 went there, seeing that 1 was nol tit for duty,he told me 1 would not he required any more and 1 will invalid you myself, Hus was said in Hie presence of Capl. Smith, 1 was then ordered lo give up Hie key of my cottage, arms and accoutrements, and clothing. 1 gave up these filings accordingly. 1 was excused the payment of (lie passage money for myself and family. A few weeks after ! was invalided M’jor Kenny sent word by Captain Smith to me, that 1 might have the key of my collage to go and live in, if 1 found the rents too high in Auckland. When 1 went lo llowick (o gel the key it was refused me by Captain Smith until he could see Major Kenny again. When 1 saw Hie Major he would nol listen io me, so 1 came away and have so lost my collage and acre. Moved Ity Mr. Carleton, and carried, Thai Hie evidence he now closed, and the Committee do adjourn lo 11 o'clock to-morrow, FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 7rn, 1833. Present— Messrs, Sewell, Forsaith, Carlelon, and Mackay Moved by Mr. Cailelon— That Hie evidence be re-opened. Carried. Private Henry Ashnrsl examined—Discharged September, 1842. Character very good. Arrived in New Zealand in 4847. Belonged to Captain Smith’s Company. Was nol pul in possession of collage and acre on arrival. Was put in possession of collage and acre al llowick in the latter pari of the year, 1848. The collage and acre were subsequently taken from me. He refuse lo give up Ihe key, consequently the door was broken open. Was in Hie sick rcporl, and unable to attend parade. Had sick cerlilicales from Dr. Thompson of the 58lh Regl. and from Dr. Mallhcw attached to that Rcgt. Sent these certificates to llowick. Was fined for non allcndancc at parade. Dr. Thompson's certificates were received for a lime, for five years am! upwards ; after that time Major Kenny would not allow Dr. Thompson's certificates to he received. The collage and acre was taken away because I was unable lo attend parade throng!) sickness. 1 w'as placed under sloppages lo the amount of 4a/. forpassage money. Moved by Mr. Mackay, That Hie evidence be closed. Question put and carried. Gommillce adjourned, SATURDAY, Bth SEPTEMBER, 1833. Present— Messrs. Carlelon, Forsailh, Taylor I and Mackay, Mr. Sewell—Chairman. * I Question pul,

That the minutes of evidence he read in exIcnro.. Agreed. , Evidence was then read by the Chairman. The Chairman then read draft ol a report. Question pul, Thai the draft be adopted as the report. Debate ensued. On motion ol Mr, Torsailh. the Committee adjourned for further consideration of the report until 10 o'clock on .Monday. MONDAV, Bru SEPi'KMBER, 18S3. Present — Messrs. Carlclon, Taylor, Torsailh, and Mackay, Mr. Sewell—Chairman. Question put, (hat (he draft report he re-con-sidered. Agreed to. Paragraphs 1, 2, 3, i, and G, as amended. Agreed to. Question pul by (he Chairman Ural lire followmg paragraph he agreed to. 41 In some instances pensioners who had obtained their collage and land were subsequently deprived of (hem, for a Hedged breaches of military discipline, such as non-attendance at parade. It would, in the opinion of your Committee, be dangerous to re-open questions of this nature, decided by the proper military authorities, even rvere il competent to the House to do so." Committee divided. Ayes—The Chairman, Mr. Mackay. Noes—Messrs. Caileton, Torsailh, Taylor. Paragraph expunged. Mr. Carlelon moved —that the following paragraphs he inserted. 7. lint your Committee would observe, that although the clearest breach of agreement was the neglect to place the men in immediate possession of their collages and acres, the most serious grievance, and that which calls the most imperatively for 100 interference ol (lie Colonial Executive, is tiie depriving them of cottages and acres, and even placing (hern under stoppages to the whole amount of their passage money, for absence from parade through sickness, and notwithstanding (be production of sick certificates. 8. Your Committee can recognise no conditions with the men, excepting those under which they are actually enrolled. 9. They find an engagement to confer certain advantages in requital of certain military duties. •IU. They believe (hat absence from parade under sick certificate, cannot he construed into a non-per onuancc of duty. 11. The reception of a sick ceriXicale in excuse being, as they believe, so invaarihle, as to have become a custom, and therefore incident to the conditions under which die men were enrolled. 12. And the Colony is bound in loyally and good faith to carry out the Queen's engage incuts, in all eases where il cannot be shewn that the military duties interpreted according to the usual rules of military service, have been unullilled. Question put—that the paragraphs proposed be inserted. Ayes—Messrs. Torsailh, Carlelon, Taylor Noes —Mr.Macky, The Chairman. Paragraphs inserted accordingly, and numbered!, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12. Moved by Mr. Torsailh—that the following paragraph be inserted. 15. Your Committee moreover feel bound to add, that as the unanimous testimony of the witnesses examined by them, establish the fact that the Crown in the first instance failed to perform the condition under which the Tensioners were enrolled; it becomes a question deserving the serious consideration of the Executive Government, whether the breach of agreement on the part of the Crown, should not exempt Hie Pensioners from a too strict and literal interpretation of the contract in respect of the service they were required to render. Question put—that the above paragraph he inserted, and numbered 13. Ayes, Messrs. Torsailh, Carlelon, Taylor. Noes, Mr. Mackay, The Chairman. Paragraph inserted, and numbered 13. Paragraphs l i and 13 agreed to. Quesli m put by (! c Chairman—that the fol low ing paragraph he inserted : They would add as a final remark their earnest hope, that this investigation and report, may not have the effect of raising undue ex pcclalions in the minds of the petitioners, which may be disappointed. Ayes, Messrs. Mackay, Taylor, the Chairman Noes, Messrs. Torsailh, Carlelon. Paragraph inserted, numbered lt>. Committee then adjourned.