LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealander, Volume 2, Issue 77, 21 November 1846, Page 3

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Thursday, November 12, 1846. Present: His Excellency the Governor, Colonial Secretary, Attorney General, Colonial Truasurer, and W. Donnelly, A. Domett, and A. Kennedy, Esqrs. The Colonial Secretary moved the order of the day for the further consideraiion of the Land Claims bill ; which was further discussed, and amended, and postponed till following day. The Arms' bill was read a third fime and passed. The Sessions of the Peace bill was considered in Committee, and further consideration postponed till following day. Council adjourned. \

Friday, November 13. Present— All the Members. The Council resumed in Committee on the Land Claims' bill, which was again discussed, amended, and the further consideration postponed till Saturday. The Sessions of the Peace bill was committed, amended, and the report brought up. The Native Land Purchase bill was, on the motion of the Attorney General, read a first time. Council adjourned.

Saturday, November 14, 18' lu 1 . Present — All the Members. Native Land Purchase Bill. The Attorney General, in moving the second reading of this bill, said, that the Council would observe that this bill was a short one ; that the principles on which it was founded were distinctly set forth, and at more than ordinary length; and that its enactments were clearly expressed ; but, short and simple as it was, it would ba found in reality to be of great practical importance, more so, probably, than any measure which had yet passed the Council. For that reason he would trespass briefly on their time, by offering a few observations upon it. The question involved in the measure was, whether New Zealand should be colonised regularly and' systematically, or the contrary. Now, he believed that the Council if wholly unshackled and unfettered, would agree in the necessity for providing for the systematic colonisation of this country, and that looking to the times in which their powers as a Legislative Council were given, seeing that they were required " to make all such laws as may be necessary for the peace, order, and good government of the Colony," that they would unanimously agree in the necessity for such a measure as the one now before them. But such a course of policy had already been prescribed at the very outset of the Colony ; for it had been provided by the British Government that New Zealand should be colonised systematically. It would be in the recollection of the Council that in the first despatch to the first Governor of New Zealand, provision was made with a ■view to this object. After instructing Captain Hobson to negotiate with the chiefs for the recognition of Ilei Majesty's sovereignty, Lord Normanby pointed out to him, that "It is further necessary that the chiefs should be induced, if possible, to contract with you, as representing Her Majesty, that henceforward no lands shall be ceded, either gratuitously or otherwise, except to the Crown of Great Britain. Contemplating the future growth and extension of a Biitish Colony in New Zealand, it is an object of the first importance; that the alienation of the unsettled lands within its limits should be conducted from its commencement upon that system of sale of which experience has proved the wisdom, and the disregard of which has been so fatal to the prosperity of other British settlements. With a view to those interests, it is obviously the same thing whether large | tracts of land be acquired by the mere gift of the Government, or by purchases effected on nominal considerations from the aborigines. On either supposition the land revenue must be wasted, the introduction of emigrants delayed or prevented, and the country parcelled out amongst large land holders whose possessions must long remain an unprofitable, or rather a pernicious waste." To carry into effect these views of Her Majesty's government, it was provided by one of the principal clauses of the Treaty of Waitangi, that over all lands to be alienated by the aborigines, the Queen should have the exclusive right of pre-emption ; and further, it was enacted by the original Land Claims Ordinance, passed in the year 1841, that all purchases, or pretended purchases of Land from the natives by Europeans — all leases, or pretended leases — agreements or pretended agreements, or other titles, should be absolutely null and void. In the face of these provisions, it might be thought no attempts would be made to obtain possession of native lauds without the sanction of the Crown. But, at a very early period, complaints were made to Sir George Gipps, the then Governor of this Colony, by Captain Hobson, that the practice of taking lands from the natives on long leases, was beginning to prey-iil— a practice, if allowed to be persevered in— it

was at that time anticipated — would produce most mischievous consequences. On being brought under the ; notice of the Government at home, Lord John Russell, in a despatch addressed to Captain Ilobson, directed " that, iv order to put a stop to such proceedings, you will immediately introduce to the local legislature an Act declaring the invalidity of those leases fiom the natives, and of every other alienation of their lands (in whatever form, or subject to whatever conditions, or for whatever time such alienation may have been made by them) in favor of any individual, since the proclamation of Her Majesty's sovereignty in New Zealand." Although such an Act had never been passed, the practice of j)urchasing land, or taking leases from the natives, had altogether ceased for several years, until an opening had unfortunately been again given to it by the proclamations for waiving the Crowns' right of pre-emption. Subsequently to this waiver of the right of pre-emption, the practice in this part of the Colony of illegally buying j and leasing lands from the natives had been revived ; and in the south also, persons were in numerous eases, entering into bargains with the natives for extensive sheep and cattle runs. Such practices struck at once at the root of all regular and systematic colonisation. Now j he, the Attorney General, for one, fully concurred in j that part of the preamble of the bill now before the Council, which declares that "it is essential to both the peaceable and prosperous colonisation of New Zealand, that the disposal of land therein should be subject to the control of the Government of the Colony." He believed that it was essential to the Government of every country that it should retain to itself the power of prescribing the limits within which settlements should be formed. If we were undertaking the colonisation of a country, without a single native inhabitant, we ought strictly to retain to ourselves this power, or what would be the result?— Why, thac unchecked and left to itself, population would spread itself in various directions, dragging the Government after thtiin, rendering it necessary to multiply the establishments, and without limits increasing the expenses, and adding to the difficulties of the governing power. And if this principle be sound as applied to a country previously uninhabited, how much more strongly is its application called for to a country like New Zealand, peopled as it is with a numerous and warlike race of half bai'barous native inhabitants. If the present council were the first Council and wholly without practical experience— md were called to the consideration of this subject, it would surely see that with such elements to deal with in the colonization of New Zealand that unrestricted and irregular settlement could not be permitted without risking the security of individuals, and without endangering the public tranquillity. But, instead of being the first, the present was the fifth council with but too ample and sad experience. We have seen one settlement entirely swept from the face of ihe earth— the settlers in the north and in the soutli from other small scattered settlements driven from their farms into the towns ; and, in the south also, we have seen a whole population under arms and protected by troops, in expectation of attacks from the natives of the district. If ever, then, it was the duty of the Government to retain to itself the power ot directing and prescribing the course of colonization, it was most assuredly in the case of New Zealand ; and now was the time for such legislation. The evils of irregular colonisation, to be remedied effectually, must be checked in their beginnings — if allowed to gain head, all attempts at a remedy are useless, a numerous class would be found to have sprung into existence — to have become powerful, and to set up claims on the ground of vested interests. 1o meet these evils was the object of the bill now before the Conncil, and it appeared to him, the Attorney General that apart from consideration of general importance to the community at large, that it was the interest of almost every individual that such a measure should pass into a law. To the purchasers of land from the Crown— to the land claimants, who after great expense and delay had at length got a title to their lands— and to those who, by making the required payments, would shortly acquire a title to lands over which the right of pre-emption had been waived, it was surely but just that the Government should take measures for preventing others from obtaining the use and occupation of land in an irregular manner, and for a merely nominal consideration. If the Council then should agree with him, the Attorney General, thatsuch unauthorised purchases of land from the natives were an evil, and that the evil should be promptly and effectually remedied, the question for their consideration was this— Was the bill now before them calculated to effect that object 1 On referring to its enactments it would be found that the bill prohibited under penalties to be recoverable summarily the buying and licensing of native lands, and the use aud occupation of such lands without a li • cense from the Crown. The object of the bill however was not to prevent dealings for native lands, but to prevent that being done irregularly, which would shortly be allowed to be done under a system and subject to regulations to be matured for that purpose. The bill also prohibits the entering into agreements with the natives, without a license, for the right of cutting tim ber ; but by this provision it was not intended to prevent Europeans from acquiring the right of cutting timber ; but that such rights should be acquired through the medium of an authorised agent, instead of directly from the natives. But although agreements for the right of cutting timber were prohibited, there was nothing whatever in this bill to prevent persons as heretofore from buying timber and spars, or contracting for there purchase, any more than to prevent the purchase of a kit of potatoes, or a bundle of flax — nor was it intended in any way whatever to interfere with the collection of native produce and to prevent any injurious \ application of the law, it would be found that provision had been made in the bill that no information should belaid for the infraction of any of its provisions but by some recognised officer to be appointed for the purpose. And, further, he would add, that so far was it from being the intention of the Government to discourage commercial intercourse between the two races of Her Majesty's subjects in New Zealand, the great object of this measure was really to promote and encourage it— to extend, make safe, and permanent, what had hitherto been limited, unsafe and precarious — and to interfere no further in the relations between the two races than was absolutely essential to individual security, public tranquillity, and the systematic colonization of the cou try. Such being the objects of this measure, he should look with confidence for the support of the Council, and would conclude by moving the second reading of the bill. Mr. Donnelly said, that the elaborate description given by the learned Attorney- General of the various disasters inflicted upon the Colony by irregular claims to land, rendered it unnecessary for him to say a word on tha subject. That description, however, coming at the present juncture from the learned gentleman, was somewhat inoportune. Having the opportunity of doing so, and indeed being bound in duty to do so, why did he not use all the means in hispowei to dissuade Capt. Fitzßoy from issuing the now famous proclamations? The only opposition offered to these proclamations, was an easy and quiet advice from the learned gentleman, that it would perhaps be just as well not to engage in such measure without consulting the authorities at home. The Attorney-General observed, that lie never said even that. Mr. Donnelly said, that he thought he had good rea son for believing that his learned friend had either spoken or written these words or others of a similar import, ttut, as his learned friend, it would seem, could not en-

duro the very idea of a separation in any thing from his two brethren of the Executive Council, he would not sow the seeds of disunion amongst men so firmly bound together — His object was to distinguish his learned friend from others, for instance, from the Colonial Secretary, who, during the government of Captain FitzRoy, had been the advocate of free trade, properly so called, of free trade in land, and indeed of free trade in any thing and every thing. Captain Fitzßoy was in these days left without advice and assistance, when he was beset by every species of difficulty, at least it would seem so, from the confession just made by the learned Attorney- General. No governor of a colony ever meant better towards the settlers than Captain Fitzßoy; but he was unsupported, and, it would now be seem unadvised. Nevertheless, as he believed, after all that the learned Attorney- General was distinguished generally from his brethren, he would not retract the charitable donation which lie had given. As to the bill before the Council, he thought it was a necessary sequel to the Land Claims' bill. The latter bill provided compensation for certain land claimants, in debentures, the interest of which was chargeable on the customs-duties, and the principal on the revenue of the colony. This heavy charge was fixed upon the mass of the settlers, the innocent purchasers from the Crown, and this grievous taxation inflicted upon them, for the purpose of indemnifying individuals who, though in some instances blameable themselves, were generally all but decoyed into their illegal purchases by the Colonial Government, Irregular claims to land had scourged the colony to a greater extent, and had inflicted more calamities upon both races than all the other causes of disorder put together. To put an end to, and to prevent the recurrence of those calamities, and particularly the heavy charges upon the Colonial revenue, and the severe taxation just adverted to, was the object of the bill now before the Council. To the principle of the bill he would of course give his cordial assent. Mr. Kennedy believed that the principle of the bill was good ; and that it was quite proper that the Government should have the management of the sales of land— but he thought there would be an insuperable difficulty in the way if there was not a code of regulations appended to the measure, whereby a system would be established to regulate future dealings with the natives, lie therefore moved that the bill should stand over for further consideration until a code of regulations should be prepared. The Colonial Secretary said, that he would give his cordial support to the measure which his honorable and learned friend, the Attorney General, had proposed to the Council ; and he was glad that His Excellency had laid such a bill on the table. With regard to the reference made to the acts of the late Government by the honorable member, Mr. Donnelly, he, the Colonial Secretary, considered that the honorable member was not aware of the opinions which were held by the executive on the system of pre-emption. But as his own, the Colonial Secretary's, views had been printed in the parliamentary papers, he felt no delicacy in now avowing them. His opinion was that the Government should have control over the transactions of the natives in the disposal of their lands to the Europeans ; but that no profit should accrue to the Government out of the proceeds of such sales. The natives had as good a right under the Treaty of Waitangi, to sell their lands, as they had to sell their hogs ; but it was required for the sake of regularity, and of justice, that a system should exist, whereby transactions of the kind should be regulated by the governing authority of the colony. Such were the views he held, and the system which had been adopted by the late Governor, in waiving the Crown's right of pre-emption, had by no means given up the right of the Crown to control the transactions, and ascertain the nature of the purchases which might be effected under the waiver. He was sorry that in the observations of the honorable member, Mr. Donnelly, so little charity had been evinced towards the late Govvernor, more especially as that honorabb member had had an opportunity of knowing the difficulties with which Captain Fitzßoy had to contend. The Colonial Treasurer rose to support the amendment of his honorable friend Mr. Kennedy. He really could not go the length that was contemplated by this bill, for he conceived that that which was most desirable should take place in the country namely, the union— the amalgamation of the two races, would, by this measure be completely frustrated. He wished above all things, to see facilities given whereby the settlers could acquire land, under liberal and proper regulations ; and he could not discover in this bill all that he would desire on that head. If a proper code of regulations were passed along with the measure, then, he had no doubt but it would contribute to the^harmonious occupation of the country; but without such a system, he considered the bill to be objectionable. His opinion was that whatever restrictions were found necessary to be placed upon the leasing and the sale of lands, that no interference ought to take place in allowing licenses from natives for the liberty of cutting timber in the country. He the Colonial Treasurer, although not prepared to support the penny-an-acre system, was not ashamed to acknowledge that he did not shrink from the responsibility of giving his assent to that measure, out of deference to the judgment of a Governor of the Colony, who had better opportunities of judging of its merits and tendency than he himself could have j and His Excellency might rely on his, the Colonial Treasurer's, readiness to paj him the same deference in supporting any measure that might be deemed of importance for the interests of the Colony, although his own views might not altogether concur in the wisdom and practicability of its provisions. The honorable member, Mr. Donnelly, had endeavoured to stigmatize the late Government on account of the pre-emption system — but he the Colonial .Treasurer, would call upon Mr. Donnelly to point out any of the great evils he had referred to 'as ace'ruing from that system. He, the Colonial Treasurer had had an opportunity, of observing , the working of the Australian Land Sales' system in this Colony, and of ascertaining the proceeds of sales which had been effected under it, and from the knowledge he had thus gained, he was led to believe that that system of disposing of lands could not last many years, indeed he might say, many months longer. He feared that the public would raise an outcry against this bill, and he wished His Excellency would modify it. The Colonial Secretary said, that the honorable member, Mr. Donnelly, in his attacks upon the late Government, was like a man cutting right and left in the dark, who knew not at what he was aiming. The members of the late execvitive Government of New Zealand, of which he had been one, acted each uponjhis own responsibility, and had, he believed, given their advice conscientiously to the late Governor on whatever measure he had brought before them. Mr. Donnelly said, that there was now no chance left him of mis-construing the hon. Coloniql Secretary's opinions, as he had so openly avowed himself an advocate for free trade in land. ,What he said before, he still maintained, that the members of the late Government were to blame for assenting to the pre-emption scheme of Captain Fitzßoy. He had no wish to say one word against that gentleman, as regarded his goodness of heart; but his policy had been most v unfortunate for this countiy ; and the present bill, which was very opposite to that policy, was supported by the very men who had advised the pre-emption system. There was one little improvement that he would like to see made in the bill. As it now stood, inconvenience might arise to individuals in search of natural curiosities in the

country, or to travellers, who might be under the necessity of erecting temporary huts on their journey. With some little improvements of this kmd, and perhaps what had been suggested by Mr. Kennedy, the bill, in his estimation, would deserve perfect approbation. The Colonial Secretary thought that he was misunderstood by the honorable member, Mr. Donnelly. He had not advocated an entirely free and unrestricted trade in land. The principle he maintained was, that the Government had no right to a profit on the interchange of land between the natives and Europeans of the country; but that if any funds were derived from such transactions, they should be expended in the construction of roads and bridges for the mutual benefit of both races. The Governor regretted that hon. members had been diverted from the more direct motion before the Council, into a discussion upon a most delusive system which had, happily for the interests of the Colony, passed away. He would now endeavour to recall their minds to the subject more immediately requiring their consideration. The. Attorney General had introduced the Native Land Purchase Bill, for a second reading, in one of the most eloquent and lucid speeches he, the Governor, had ever heard, and the learned member Mr. Donnelly, had seconded the motion. An amendment was then proposed by the honorable member, Mr. Kennedy, which the honorable, the Colonial Treasurer, had seconded. This amendment gave him, the Governor, very little concern, for he thought that it arose from a misunderstanding of the nature of the bill. After the very clear, and concise, yet comprehensive exposition of the law of the question, which the Council had just heard from the Attorney General, he, the Governor, could have but little to add in justification of what this bill proposed ; but he might be allowed to sum up the whole case in a few words, namely, that it was illegal to sell, and illegal to lease, lands belonging to the natives to any other than the Crown. Nothing was more plain and! incontrovertible than that doctrine. Such was the simple law of the case— but that law had not fixed a punishment, for its breach, but the measure then before the Council, provided a penally for the infraction of the Law. The principle which had been enunciated by the Colonial Secretary, was nothing more nor less than to allow the natives to sell their land to whom they pleased. Now if this principle were carried out, it would lead to the most disastrous results— he would not say, to the extent of the British settlers being driven oiF the island, for we were sufficiently able to protect ourselves~but it would most assuredly tend to the extermination of the whole native race. He contended that the system was calculated to induce habits of indolence in the na-" 1 tives, which, above all things, should be vigilantly guarded against. Su long as they could thus dispose of lands, to which no doubt many of them had no just claim, they would lounge about the town? and live in idleness, instead of deriving a subsistence fi om their industry and the sale of their surplus produce, which would tend to their own prosperity and that of 'every settler in the Colony. Therefore, he would contend, that 'if the natives were encouraged to sell their lands instead of, by their industry, making such lands productive, they would go on to sell while there ' remained an acre, and then fall back upon their weaker neighbours, and wrest from them their properly. A war of extermination would thus be fostered amongst (he tribes, similar to that which only a few mouths ago took place between two tribes near Auckland, where there was such a deplorable loss of human life ; and thai awful catastrophe he maintained was the result of ihe permy-an-acre proclamation. He might perhaps state to the Council that he would not object to the Natives in the interior districts disposing of theic lands ; but he thought the sales should be conducted by public auction, so that all persons might have a chance of open competition; and that a portion' of the proceeds should be set apart for making roads and bridges, &(•'. He had bern preparing a Code of Rules, such as was then suggested by Mr. Kennedy, ■ to regulate land tiansavtions, between the two races^ ■ but he found that he could not, under existing circumstances, make such regulations as would be applicable to the whole Colony, and therefore he thought it more advisable to'delay, until after having ! acquired a more intimate acquaintance with the various settlements and localities of the country, t which he hoped would assist him in framing some beneficial and permanent system, that would not be required to be altered in a few months. What he' was anxious to introduce was something like a right; ' of pre-emption for the settlers, whereby an individual who had leased laud, and cut roads on it < for his' convenience, or perhaps erected a mill, should not be turned off at the caprice of a parcel of savages, who, from their proverbial love of money, might be tempied to eject the improving occupant by the offer of a larger sum from another than he had paid. Timber stations would also be protected by this system from any similar capricious annoyance from the Natives. He was sorry that a very wrong opinion. , had gone abroad amongst the public, as regarded the designs of Government. It was thought that the object was to ruin 1 the country. Now, so far from this being the case, he could say for bis own part that nothing gave him greater pleasure than to see prosperity springing up wherever he went. It was very gratifying to him to behold the improvements that, were going forward in Auckland, and in the suburbs also; and he knew of no intention of rhe Government to obstruct the progress of this or any other settlement of the colony. It had been siiid that the bill had a tendency to ruin the prospects ol the country,— but he contended that, it would confer a boon upon New Zealand, and would tend to the greatest possible benefit for both races. This measure was in reality , a charter to those who wished to invest capital, and it fixed a value of one pound an acre upon the lands of every proprietor in Me eouutry, aud.guaran- • ( teed to thesqua/ter the necessary security to induce him to take out a license for sheep and cattle runs. He would also state that all the natives who he had consulted on the subject had given their assent tv " this measure without the least hesitation ; but per- v haps the Colonial Treasurer had likewise consulted the natives and ascertained their feelings on the sub- * ject. The honorable member the Colojiial Treasurer had said that he feared an outcry would be raised against this measure. Now, he, the Governor, begged that the Cuuucil would banish, from their minds such ideas as this, aud take the measure upon its' own worth and value, without being influenced in any way by the opposition ot men, who, fur their own present ends, would plunge the Colouy iuto futureaud perpetual confusion } and long after the outcry of such speculators— he might sayr-sueh miserable spe- , cnlators, had passed away into the oblivion it cleser- . ved, the members of tnat Council would enjoy the satisfaction of beholding the prosperous results of the present measure. Mr. Kennedy had already expressed his approha-^ tian of the principle of the bill ; but, if it was possible,' he should like to see a code of regulations sent forth' with the Ordmauce. This was most desirable, for every ' ' one interested could have free access to the published / rules, and be saved the necessity of seeking for information at the office of the Colonial Secretary, where perhaps it would not always be readily afforded. The Governor agreed with Mr. Kennedy that a schedule of regulations was highly necessary; nut honorable members knew well how his time had been fully occupied since his arrival ; insomuch indeed that he had as

vet been unable to vibit one single squatting or timber station in the countiy He hud held some conversation with sqatters when he was at the South ; but it would be more satisfactory to him to have an opportunity of acquiring information by personal inspection, befoiche would undertake to establish a permanent system • Mr. Kennedy said, that from what had fallen from His Excellency, he was quite prepaed to withdiaw his amendment* Air. Domett thought that no time should be lost in passing some restrictive measure to prevent individuals Ji am leasing extensive tracts of country from the natives. He was glad that Mr. Kennedy had withdrawn his amendment so that no delay should take place. He cared more for the settled interests of the Colony thau he did for speculatois, jobbers, or the whole host of land•harks by which New Zealand had been unfortunately infested. The late transactions which had taken place in the North under the system of pre-emption had sbown that, it was high time for the Government to interfere and check the baneful practice ; audit' was but the other day that he had received a letter from the South which stated that "there, also, -thot,e practices had Commenced. A person had brought a deed tor the lease of a large tract of conntry, on board H. M . b Calliope, to procure the signature of a native who was a prisoner of the crown. These practices, if not at once checked would lead to the most disastrous results, and hethougtthebiu should be supported by every wellwisher of the country. The Colonml Treasurer said that as I is lion, friend, Mr. Kennedy, hart withdrawn his amendment, he would not offer any opposition to the bill ; but he would now stale thai his opinions remained unshaken ; that the bill should only extend to the prevention of leasing and purchasing large tracts of country ; that it should not take away the privilege of leasing timber lands from the natives. Lie still thought that before the bill was passed, a code of regulations should be prepared. He believed that many differences would arise between the two races through the system proposed ; for disputes which were formerly settled without any trouble, would now be referred to the Government, and in addition to the great annoyance that would be given, filler animosities would be fomented between the natives, the settlers, and the Government. But all this would be gi;eatly diminished by a judicious code of regulations. The Governor.— Perhaps the Colonial Treasurer would prepare such a code. The Colonial Treasurer said if His Excellency found himself incompetent to the task, it would be useless, for him, the Colonial Treasurer, to undertake it j but he had "good reason for believing', thai without sbme regular system, many differences would arise between the natives and the settlers, out of the proposed measure. Disputes •which had hitherto taken place (and he believed they were but few) between the natives and those Europeans who had license to cut timber on their lands, had been tented without any tiouble; but under the present system, Europeans holding their licenses from the Government, will look to the Government for protection ; and in addition to the great annoyance that will thus be given, bitter animosities are likel) to be fomented between the natives, the settlers, and the Government. "The Attorney-General then rose and briefly replied to the arguments that had been brought against the bill ; and in noticing the manner in •which Mr. Donnelly had alluded to himself, said thai nothing that the honoi able member conld say would hurt him, the Attorney- General,either in or out of Council. >Mr. Donnelly, in reply, said that his observations were directed against the policy of the late Government, of which his learned friendj the Attorney-General 1 had' been a member, and so far 'from reflecting peisonally upon his learned friend,' he had evinced a desire to get him out of the scrape. The Council then went into committee on the bill. ' ' ' During the progress of the bill, Mr. Donnelly proposed that a provision should be inserted to exempt travellers, or persons in search of natural curiosities, who might be compelled to erect temporary house*, from the penalties of the bill. The Governor said that he did not see any necessity for the proviso suggested by Mr. Donnelly •, the law was the same in Australia and other places, and he never heard of travellers or persons in quest of natural products having heen interfered with. He was sure that there would be no vexatious or frivolous prosecutions under this act ; the officers of Government, and the Government itself, had, after all, to appeal to the bar of public opinion, and he was certain that no inconvenience of the kind apprehended by Mr. Donnelly would be tolerated. The clauses were then considered consecutively,and,with slight amendments, were agreed to, when the Committee adjourned, and the report was brought up. Previous to the Council being adjourned, Mr. Donnelly begged to ask the Attorney-General, whether he meant any thing disrespectful to him in the expressions which he had used towards the close of the debate. The Attorney General aaid, that if the President of the Council conceived that he had applied any improper language to Mr. Donnelly, he was pi epared to explain. The Governor said, he believed that he knew his learned friend the Attorney General too Well to imagine for one moment that he intended anj thing disrespectful to Mr. Donnelly. Indeed, he (the Governor) could compliment the Council upon the temperate and eoidial manner in which the debates had been conducted throughout the session which was then about to close. The Lunatics Bill was read a first lime. The Council then adjourned to Monday.

Monday, November IG. Present— All ttie Members. On the motion of the' Attoniev-General, the Native Land Purchase Bill was'reaft'a third time and passed. On motion of the Colonial Secretary the Lunatics bill was read a second time, committed, and, after an unimportant discussion,^ amended, and further consideration postponed till Tuesday. The consideration of the Land Claims bill, was also postponed till Tuesday. Council adjourned.

- Tuesday, November 17. Present all the Members. Lunatics' Bill. The Council went into committee on the Lunatics' Bill, which was amended, and further postponed q Wednesday.

Sessions of the Peace Bill. The third reading of this bill was postponed till Wednesday, in order that an alteration, suggested by Mr. Donnelly, might be made. ■ Land Claims' Bill. The Council resumed in committee on this bill, when an alteration was made, on the motion of the Attorney General, in the 3rd clause. A conversation arose as to the meaning of the 11th clause, as related to the difference between the regulation requiring twenty shillings an acre from one claimant, and only ten shillings from another, for a Crown Grant; and after some explanation from the Governor, The Attorney General said, that he believed the meaning of the committee, when they last ast, was, that claimants whose lands had cost, he would suppose, two shillings an acre, could have a Crown Grant by paying ten shillings an acre, without any investigation before a Commissioner, that those who had paid nine shillings an acre, would also have to pay ten shillings to the Government, but all those whose land had stood them between ten shillings and twenty shillings an acre, their claims would be investigated before a Commissioner, and they would only be required to pay the deficiency between their expenses in purchase of the land, with cost of surveys; plans, &c, and the sum of one pound per acre. He then proposed an amendment in the clause, in order that these intentions might be clearly &et i»i ih. Mr. Kennedy enquired whether those claimants who had 'purchased under the ten shillings an acre proclamation of March, 1844, and who were in possessio, would be entitled to a Crown Grant without an investigation before a Commissioner 1 ' The Governor could not see that those gentlemen stood in the same position as the other claimants ; and the simple meaning of the question then put, was no more than this ; will the Go\ eminent give titles to these lands whether they were properly acquned or not ? Now to tliat question he must most distinctly answer,— no. The Government would not promise to secure lands to individuals who had not proved their honest acquisition of them. There 'was no similarity whatever existing between the case of those gentlemen' who'had purchased under the penny, and those who had purchased land under the ten shillings an acre proclamations. The penny an acre claimants, to be exempt from investigation', would be required to pay ten shillings an acre tor their land, and this money would be applied to the satisfying of the natives whose claims to such lands might not have been extinguished. This risk the Government would run, to prevent any vexatious delay, for they were assured that ten shillings an acre would satisfy the demands' of the natives for the lands of which they had been deprived ; but to give Crown Grants to persons merely because they purchased under the ten shillings an acre proclamation, without further enquiry, would be going beyond all the bounds of prudence, Which should guide the Government in these transactions. The Government expected that very much of the lands claimed under the permy 1 proclamation would remain in their hands, and so tliey would have the power to give them back to their oiigmal owners who might substantiate their claims j but as to the ten shillings an acre claimants the case would differ. Their claims were so limited, that they would retain every acre they claimed, and no doubt would wish the Government to give them titles to the whole. But the fact was, every one of these gentlemen had acted illegally by going on their lands before they had sent in to Government the necessary documents to prove' the validity of their purchases. Just when they received the certificate of the Crown's right of pre-emption being waived, they went and took possession of the land, 'without more' ado. Now, the proclamation had made 'no allowance for such conduct as' this ; indeed, he could find nothing to countenance it. In other cases, too, which had come under his notice, as soon as the certificate was received, it was ooked upon as a bank note ; and after making anominal purchase of land, parties had sold thess documents, and thus another class of indirect claimants was raised.' In fact, the manner in -which these claims had arisen was quite new in the history of colonisation. ' He would maintain, as long as he lived, that greater injustice had never "been done to the natives of any country than had by these transactions, been perpetrated in New Zealand? ; and he had never heard, or read of 'any thing so mani«festly unjust in colonial history 1 as what had transpired under the pre-emption system in this Colony. - ' Mr. Kennedy admitted that great injustice had been done— but it'had been on the part of the 'Government, vyho had given permission for the system of acquiring lands now complained of by His Excellency. 1 The Governor observed that it was not for him to say who had done the injustice, but'he would siy that New Zealand had a charter of rights, and that that charter had been broken through. The' ctiartergave to Euiop|eans the right of fair and open competition' for the .purchase of lands in the colony, but this Had been broken. The natives by the treaty of 'Waitahgi were secured in the possession of their lands, and the Crown was to have the only right to purchase, witnout power to vest that right in another— but that charter as regards the natives was also violated. The proclamation which originated this system of purchase' declared that within a certain time after the crown's right of pre-emption was waived, the parties in whose favor 'the waiver was made should send in their documents,' plans ? and surveys for investigation, before they could be considered purchasers — but he knew no instance in which these regulations were attended to although in many cases possession had been taken of the lands. He must therefore come to this conclusion, and repeat what he had already stated, that the whole- transaction was illegal ; and that the persons now in possession ( of'th'ese lands could be ousted on account of the departure in their case from 'the principles of the charter and the Treaty of Waitangi and could also be ousted from the fact of their taking possession of lands,' which they had never proved to be fairly and honestly acquired.' Mr. Kennedy quite agreed with His Excellency that injustice had been done by the "Government ; and tins was not the only case', for he could name a hundred other instances of the injustice of the Government. For'ins'tance the burning of Kororareka might properly bo attributed to the injustice of th,is Government. 1 The amendments being 'agreed i:o, the Committee adjourned; and the report was bro'iight up. Council adjourned. Wednesday, November l«. Present — The Governor and five members j absent, Mr. Domett. the Lunatics bill, the Laud Claims' bill, and the Sessions of the Peace bill were read a third time and passed. The Governor then addressed the Members, and said : "Gentlemen, — The business of this session of the Legislative Council having now been completed, I have only to thank you for the at tentioh yoju have given to your diities, and to adjourn the Council sine die"