WAIKATO.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume XXVIII, Issue 48, 16 June 1869, Page 3

WAIKATO.

THE INTERVIEW BETWEEN MR. FIRTH AND TAMATI NGAPORA. We published in our last the telegraphic account furnished by the correspondent of the Southern Cross, of the meeting between Mr. Firth, who we suppose to have represented the Government, and Tamati Ngapora, the Prime Minister of the Maori King, ou the Ist instant, at Orahiri, on the confines of Upper Waikato. The Southern Gross, of the Bth, gives a long and interesting account of the first day's korero between these diplomatists, which we abridge so as to bring it within the compass of our columns. Mr. Pirth is a merchant of Auckland, and is the lessee, we believe, of a cattle run, from the natives somewhere in the neighbourhood of Waikato. This gentleman was accompanied by two interpreters, Messrs. Davis and Recce. These are the first agents of the Government who have been permitted to hold personal interviews with the leaders of the King party since the close of the Waikato war. Although the terms demanded by Tamati Ngapora on behalf of the King and the Waikato tribes, as given by ns on Saturday, are such as cannot be acceded to, it is something to have drawn these men into a negotiation, and so far to have resumed interviews with the Government. Mr. C. O. Davis, whose name occurs so frequently in the following narrative, is probably more trusted by the northern natives than any other European. He has for many years been their general man of business, and, in the estimation of many persons, has sympathized more with the natives than with his own countrymen. So strong, indeed, was this belief, that, about three years ago, he was indicted and tried in Auckland for treasonable practices, and to the surprise, we believe, of all who read the evidence, was acquitted. We now take up the narrative as furnished by the Southern Gross : — We found the natives awaiting our arrival. They were assembled to the number of about 100 besides women and children outside the Whare Runanga (or Council-house), the men on the right and the women on the left. \Ve stood at a short distance away, and silently gnzed upon the crowd seated before us. Anon one of their number, Te Aroha, settled himself in a reverential attitude, with his face half concealed by his blanket, and offered up the following beautiful prayer : — [translation.] A day, a clay, oh Lord of Hosts, hast Thou given us to unite us in person, for Thou art continuing the light which enables us to praise Thee, oh Lord of Hosts. From the creation of tho world Thou hast pro- | tected Thy servants, and Thou continucst to do so in these seasons. Thou art ever gracious to men, making known Thy love. Hearken to our prayer now, so that peace and love may flourish, that our thoughts may be turned to Thee both day and night. Oh gracious Saviour, Thou hast engrafted our bodies, for Thou hast before spread out the light ; the heavens, the earth, and tho seasons declare Thy goodness. Thou art pouring out unasked for water on these our bodies, i.e., the water of grace instilled into the soul from heaven. Thou hasfc gathered together from the four corners of the island the benefits for the whole of Thy flocks. Gracious Lord, let Thy peace rest on us, also on our friends, whom you have brought hither before us. Let peace dwell on both races. In days gone by, the blood of both pakehas and Maoris was shed, they both suffered, and now we bless Thee that we Bee our friends standing before us. Let the inca Tawhiao be glorified who is shielding us in the world, The glory is Thine, the glory Thine, the glory is Thine, grace grace. HYMN. Father good aud gracious, grace, grace, Son good and gracious, grace, grace, Spirit; good and gracious, grace, grace. During the delivery of this prayer, the natives sat with their faces half buried in their blankets, and they joined in the hymn at the close with the greatest apparent fervour and devotion. We stood bareheaded during this religious service. When it was concluded, and after a short pause, Tamati Ngapora te Manuhiri arose, and coming forward a pace or two said, " Come forward, Mr. Davis." The gentleman thus addressed at once led the way, shook hands with Tamati, and rubbed noses. Messrs. Firth, Preece, and myself were introduced by Mr. Hettit, and we each had the honour of shaking hands with the famous Prime Minister of King Tawhiao. We were however not equal to the task of rubbing noses, not being sufficiently advanced in the more refined customs of Maori etiquette. A mat was placed for us on the right hand side of the verandah, and we sat down upon it, Mr. Davis in the middle. Some of the chiefs (most of them old men) then came forward and rubbed noses with him. Anon a number of women appeared with baskets of food which were set down in a row in front of the whare. As a matter of simple courtesy we were bound to eat some of this food ; if we had allowed it to remain untouched it would have been construed into a disregard of the 'hospitality of our friends. While we were eating, Whitiora or Wiremu te Komiti walked out into the space between the two lines formed by the natives, and prepared to address us. He was dressed in a native mat made with sleeves like a coat, and called a Tcouru, moleskin trousers, and knee boots, and while he spoke he held his cap in his hand. His commanding figure, and manly intelligent features, no less than the deep energetic tones in which he spoke, were sufficient to strike the observer with admiration. I could not help thinking as I looked at him of the character of the Barbarian in the play of Ingomar. This chief, I ought te remind the reader, was the commander at Krangiriri, and, by his courageous bearing on that occasion, was tho admiration of the Europeans as well as of his fellow-countrymen. Addressing Mr. Davis, he said t " Welcome, Charles Davis, coming along the path of poace. Don't you suppose that peace emanated from you [the Europeans], No, but it has emanated from me [the Maoris]. But for that peace you would not be able to come here now. Welcome to this district, torn by the ravuges of war formerly, but now peaceful. We are here to welcome you. Come with your friend Mr. Firth, whose arm was strong formerly in support of war, but whose arm is now becoming weak to make war [i.e., his work formerly was that of war, but now it is that of peace]. Welcome, Mr. Davis, with your friend Mr. Firth. Mr. Davis, in reply, said : What you say is right. I come in the paths of peace. There is no greater thing than this peace ; to establish this peace God came down from heaven. It is true what you have said of Mr. Firth, that his present work is peace. It 13 on account of this that he has come up now to see you. The fact of our being here together is sufficient evidence that we all desire peace — speaking mouth to mouth, you looking at us, and we at you. Formerly there were thorns and briars strewing our paths, but now these have been cleared out of the way. My heart rejoices" in consequence of your call of welcome, and that welcome is the basis for the establishment of peaceful relations. Te Abqha then rose and stalked in great dignity out into the space in front of the ivhare. He said : Welcome, Mr. Davis, welcome hither. Come straight up. This is a time for rejoicing. There are signs of peace. The black cloud is being cleared away from the heavens, and the day looks brighter.

Welcome to us now, as you were welcome formerly, leaving with us words of remembrance to which we hold fast now. The world was not made for you only, but for both of us. The Almighty is as willing to look in pity upon us, with our brown Bkin, as on you with your white skin. We both sprang from tho same seed, planted by the Almighty. His grace is as free for us as it is for you. We were created the same clay. Come straight on. lam living on the branch of a tree. Do not be nervous hearing what I have to say. Give bnck tho soil, gire back Waikato, give back Tatnaki [i.e., Pukaki, Mangeie, &c] Although lam living on the branch of the tree I still cling to the soil [I will not give up my right to it]. We are like wandering Israelties without a home ; we are living on the branch of the tree. The day, the day, t,hi9 day is given to us by the Almighty for the purpose of uniting us in the bonds of peace. This word of peace was neither yours nor mine, but it was first instilled into our hearts by the Almighty. Mr. Davis : Call to me, my friend. What you have said is excellent and true. We are both engaged in the same work. What good work is so great as this, the saving the lives of men ? It is true, as you say, that this work is not our own, but we aro permitted to do it by the Almighty, for He is the fountain of peace and of all good. And think you that it is a matter of indifference to the Almighty ; think you that tho angels are not rejoicing over this work, and the hosts of heaven? The proclamation was, " Peace on earth and goodwill towards men." Although this work is the work of the Almighty, let us who have been impressed with ifc set to work at once, so that the Pakeha and the Maori may dwell together in unity* Your thoughts are wise, and loving, and good. I have little to say in reply, because you are imbued with the same feelings as I am myself, that is, the work of peace. This talk had gone on while the company were eating, but at the conclusion of the repast, the chiefs who had been eating in the whare came out into the open air. Tamati Ngapora came out and squatted down in front of Mr. Davis. Of this remarkable man the writer of the narrative gives the following account : — Tamati's features aro pleasing, and full of intelligence and thoughtfulness, but his imaginary wrongs have hai'dened his heart, so that it will be long before he will be reconciled towards the Europeans. I know little of his history. He has not always been the King's Prime Minister and mouthpiece. Before the war in 1863, Tamati lived at Mangere, and waa the native pastor there. He wore the attire of a minister, and was much respected by the Europeans, but when hostilities broke out he forsook us, and joined his countrymen, amongst whom he soon became conspicuous for his intelligence and education. Tawhiao having married one of his daughters, he became Prime Minister of the Maori King, and at the prescut day Tamati is virtually King himself. When I saw him he wore no other European clothing but a Crimean shirt beneath his mat, and even of that he appeared to be ashamed, for when he saw my eye bent upon his sleeve, he suddenly withdrew it inside his mat, and never afterwards showed it except when ho shook hands with us at parting. Tamali Ngapora has recently taken the name of Manuhiri [guest], iv reference to his being the guest of the Ngatimaniapotos, upon whose territory the whole of the Waikatos are now residing. I believe Tamati is in receipt of a considerable sum in the shape of rent on land of his at Manger?, which he still owns. Before we left, he gave Mr. Davia a power-of-attorney respecting his Mangere property. What follows is highly important :-rAnd here, before proceeding to give the discussion which took place at the interview, I may pause in order to say a word or two of the actual feeling thab exists between the Ngatimaniapotos and the refugee Waikatos. The King himself, Tamati Ngapora, and all the principal supporters of the King aro Waikatos, and the Ngatimaniapotos are jealous of the assumption of authority over them, and have accused the Waikatos of maintaining the auhatis for their own exclusive benefit. Kewi and his people have as yet lost no territory, and are not embittered against us. They are jealous of the King, and would, I feel sure, gladly get rid of the Waikatos altogether if the latter could be induced to settle on portions of the Waikato. They are annoyed at the obstinacy of the Waikatos, aud already a suspicion is gaining ground that these people whom the Ngatimaniapotos have received as guests and refugees desire to remain in permanent possession of the land on which they have been provided with an asylum on sufferance. Already there have been bickerings, and I firmly believe that, so soon as it is known that the Waikatos refuse to accept portions of confiscated territory as a free gift, the breach between the two tribes will be so widened that the elightest accident will bring them into hostile collision with each other. At the present time Rewi and Tamati Ngapora are estranged from each other, in consequence of tho latter having opposed Rewi's going to Ngaruawahia to meet the Prince. I have been told by those who heard him that Rewi said afc Tokangamutu on a recent occasion, " I have been the cause of these troubles : I was strong to produce them, and now I will be as strong on the other side to end them." The Ngatimaniapotos also say that should the King and Tamati involve the Ngatimaniapotos in a war with the pdkelias it is the Ngatimaniapotos who will suffer, while the Waikatos will lose nothing. Tamati I Ngapora is not a warrior, and I will do him the justice of saying that he has hitherto shown himself to be averse to fighting, and has done much, to put it down. The conversation that ensued between Davis and Tamati Ngapora is then given, and as it would be most difficult to convey a correct notion of its character in an abridgment, we give it nearly in its entirety : — Tamati's first words, after looking at Mr. Davis for some minutes, were : Have you a word to us ? Mr. Davis : Yes, I have. I heard you were out yonder, and I came up with the hope of finding you at Kiorenui (Alexandra), for the day and the place had been named, and I discovered that you were not there (i.e., at Ngaruawahia), I have come in search of you. You were to have been at Alexandra on Friday, and on the Saturday you were to have been at Karakariki, and on the Monday you were to have been at Ngaruawahia to meet the son of the Queen, and tho Governor 5 but I find you here. Manuhihi (Tamati Ngapora) : I have already sent to the Governor three several times. I replied to a letter of his sent from Wellington, inviting me to Auckland to welcome the son of the Queen on shore. I sent fifty of my people to Ngaruawahia to meet the son of the Queen and the Governor, and they returned, saying that the Prince would only stay in Auckland ten days to look about him, and that he would not come by the Waikato. I have seen Dr. Pollen, who was represented by Wilson, but I expected to see liis father. Mr. Davis •. Did Mr. Wilson invite you to meet the Prince ? Manithiei : I asked him who sent him hither ? He said the Governor. I said what Governor ? He said Dr. Pollen. I said " Well, now that you have come from the Governor, speak." I asked him three times, and he made no reply. At last he said, " I have come to ask you to go down to Auckland to meet the Prince." I said, '• I won't go." Mr. Davis : What reply did you make about the other places, Maungatawhiri and Ngaruawahia? Manuhiri : I made no reply. As I was leaving Mr. Wilson, I said to him, " Have you any word's from the Governor? What about tho letter of the 6th March ? If you have come to confirm propositions in that letter say so:" He Baid, "I know nothing about that letter." Mr. Davis : Was a letter addressed to you from Sir William Martin ? Manuhiei : Ana. How do I know ? Mr Davis : Will you produce that letter ? Manuhiei : What have you (tho Europeans present) to do with it ? Mr. Davis : We wish to Bee its contents, so that we may know -whether it agrees witk suggestions made by some of our European friends, who are desirous to establish peace.

Manuhibi : I have a letter. Mr. Davis : The gentleman with whom the propositions contained in that letter originated is here. Mandtiibi : Why, then, do you ask to know its contents, as they have originated with you ? Mr. Davis : I want to know whether they are in unison with the statements that were expressed. Manumbi : You know tho contents of tho letter already. Mr. Davis : Don't suppose that I have any other feeling but that of kindness towards you, and a desire to benefit you, and these gentlemen are equally anxious to serve you. Mantthiei : I know you well. I have not the least doubt as to your sincerity and your good feelings towards us. Mr. Davis : Mr. Firth waited on Sir William Martin, and made certain propositions to him in reforence to bringing about the establishment of peace. Afterwards Mr. Firth heard that Sir William Martin had written to you ; and I wish to see this letter, or to ascertain whether the propositions contained in it agree with those suggested by Mr. Firth. Manuhibi : You know tho contents of the letter ; 1 they some from you. (K^Mr. Davis : What think you of the contents of tho letter? Manuhibi : No ; but what think you of them ? Mr. Davis : Do you approve of them ? Manuhiui : No j do you approve of them ? Mr. Davis : I am not quite sure about the contents of that letter. Manuiiiri : I approve of them. Mr. Davis : Aro you satisiicd that righteousness and peace will kiss each other, if the suggestions mooted in that letter are carried out? Manuhibi: Yes. Mr. Davis : That is most excellent, for the lives of men will be preserved, and peace will bo restored, and we shall be able to sleep soundly and eat with relish. What are your sentiments in reference to your visiting the Princo ? Manuhibi : What are yours? Mr. Davis : We left the Prince in Auckland. Manuhibi : I heard ho was gone. Mr. Davis: Wo have here the notification in reference to his having remained, and his being willing to come up the Waikato to visit you. [A copy of the extra published by tho Daily Southern Cross, in reforence to tho prolongation of tho Prince's slay, was here read in English by Mr. Davis, and translated into Maori by Mr. Preece.] Tho foregoing conversation had' been listened to with the deepest attention by the natives who crowded round tho verandah of tho council house, tho priucipal chiefs sitting under tho verandah, while the commoner sort of the people sat down or stood up outside. Every point that could command a view of tho spot where wo oat was occupied, and many of tho men looked over the shoulders of those in front. By this time, however, the shades of evening had begun to close, and wo were invited to continue tho korero inside. A mat was spread for us in a corner of the whare, and we seated ourselves upon it, a lamp being placed beside us. Manuiiiri, who, the reader will be careful to bear in mind, is one and tho same person as Tamati Ngapora, then caino and squatted down in front of U3 as before. A Hau-hau prayer was then offered up, and a chaunt sung, which occupied about half-an-hour. At tho conclusion of the service tho conversation was resumed. Manuiiiei said : Were you at Opepe (in the Taupo district)? Mr. Davis : No, I was at Oruanui (Taupo district). Manuhibi: To Poihipi and Hohepa Tamamutu were building a pah at Opepo, and To Heuheu finding it, sent them back. Mr. Davis : I have heard that thero has been fighting in that district. Manuiiiei : While we nro talking of pence here, there is fighting there and atrouny other places. Mr. Davis : Why don't you put a stop to tho fighting? Manuhibi : Why don't you ? Mr. Davis : Has till mana (power and authority) been taken away from you ? Manuuibi : Has all mana (all authority) been taken away from you, that you do not put a stop to this fighting? Mr. Davis : I havo seen your proclamation in relation to peace, which has gladdened my heart. Manuhibi : I tried to send it to Te Kooti, who is now fighting, but my messengers could not get through on account of your armies. Mr. Davis : Now that you and I are agreed about peace, cannot you do your part ? MANUniBi : Cannot you do yours ? You aro allJ>owerful. You havo tho road open by sea and by and. All you havo to say to your side is " Come back," and they will como back immediately. But our aide is slow to work. Thero are hindrances in tho way; our messengors are obstructed by your armies. Mr. Davis : You say you are anxious for peace, and wo say that we are anxious for peace; cannot you meet the Governor, and state what you want? Whitioha. : I will answer that We do not want any particular part of Waikato ; we want all Waikato and all New Zealand back ; for this is Waikato and thero is Wuikuto (moaning tho confiscated lino through the country). The Taranaki land belongs to its own peoplo ; the Munukuu land belongs to its own peoplo; tho Whanganui and Waikato lands belong to their own people. Let the Governor call back all you Europeans, who aro sqjourners (i.e., • living on tho confiscated land) merely, throughout the colony, and not until then will we meet the Governor to talk about peace. Mr. Davis : Our anxiety is that peace should be established throughout the country ; that tho wea- . pons of war should sleep in the corners of tho house ; that men should dwell together as brethren, not only in Waikuto, but at Tiiranuki, at Hawke'e Bay, Poverty Bay, Opotiki, and all other places. Lot us assist each other in bringing about this desirable end. Manuhibi: Ho (Whitiora) is speaking about Wairoa, about Whanganui, about Waitani, about Waikato, and other places. Mr. Davis : I should liko you to give expression to your feelings with respect to what the Maoris desire to have, in order to bring about tho establishment of peace. Manuhibi : You know already ; why do you ask ? You aro fully acquainted with my views— fully. Mr. Davis : You and I understand each other, but thero aro gentlemen hero now whose ears will listen to your requests. Would you like to meet the Governor, and make known your viewß to him? Manuhiri : You have tho Governor hero by your side (alluding Ip Mr. Firth, and meaning that Mr. Firth was acquainted with tho Governor's views in rcforenco to theso matters.) Mr. Davis : True, Mr. Firth may know what are tho views of the Governor. It docs not tuko long to cat food nor to tako a draught of wafer. In relation to tho moro important affairs of men they require culm deliberation. I shall not, thcrofore, prolong this discussion to-night, but, if you have no objection, wo will meet hero to-morrow after breakfast. Manuhiki : I am going off to-morrow morning. Mr. Davis : Wo would like to talk (o you further ou theso matters. We will come and see you tomorrow after breakfast. Manuhiei : You white people hare late breakfasts. Mr. Davis : We will porno early and breakfast with you. Will you stay ? MANunißl : All right. We then got up and took our leave, after shaking hands with Manuhiri and tho principal chiefs. Wo returned to Mr. Hettit's, at Torolmnga, where we were most hospitably entertained.

Population of Victohia. — The la«t qunrterly abstract of tho estimated population of Victoria states tho total population on tho 31st March, 1869, at 699,538, being un increase of 5,222 for the quarter. The mules uro estimated at 387,8 it, the females at 301,694. Tho arrivals by sea wore fi,G65 mules, 2,651 fomales ; the births, 3,062 mules, 2,870 females ; : nguinsfc departures by son, 4,9-lt mules and 1,986 females ; and deaths, 1,798 mules and 1,298 females, i Tho incruiiso by excess of births over deaths wits i 2,836, namely, 1)261 males, aud 1,572 females. ' 1