Thursday March 6.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume IV, Issue 162, 12 April 1845, Page 24

Thursday March 6.

Present—All the members. The minutes of the last sitting being read and confirmed, .... Mr. Donnelly rose and wished, before the business of the Council commenced, to make inquiries as to the disability, according to the Rules and Orders of Council, of non-official members to introduce any bill, and what course should be pursued presuming such desire to exist.

The Governor, in reply, read the Bth clause of the Royal Instructions to him, in which it is directed that til bills must either emanate from him, or receive his sanction to their introduction to the Council; and then stated that any bill emanating from any member of the Legislative Council that could conduce to the benefit of the colony and settlers, would always receive his serious consideration, and he should with pleasure submit it to the discussion and decision of the whole Council.

The Governor then laid before the Council a copy Of the Report and Resolutions of the Select Committee of the House of Commons on New Zealand, and likewise extracts from a despatch of Lord Stanley to his Excellency Captain Fitzßoy, dated 18th August, 1844. [The latter was read by the clerk of the Council, a copy of which appeared in Our last number.]

The Governor then said, in rising to propose the first reading of the Property Rate Amendment Bill, he would solicit the attention of the Council for a few minutes to explain his views, which were to raise a revenue without customs. By the machinery of customs, a frame-work was thrown around the colony. To those acquainted with the nature of the coasts, it must be apparent that freedom of access, devoid of all restrictions, would be the greatest* inducement to shipping and the best mode of promoting the future commerce and prosperity of the colony. His anxiety was to form such a system of direct taxation as should lead more to future than present revenue. He was perfectly aware that now the amount of revenue was small, but five years hence he trusted the remilt would he widely different. His object was not how he sh6uld raise the largest revenue, but how he could raise sufficient for an economical expenditure, with a view to the future prosperity of the colony. He believed it was thought by many, and also wished by others, that the customs would he re-established ; hut he conceived that such a measure would be most ruinous in its effects on the future commerce and progress of the colony ; and he certainly should not countenance any deviation from direct taxation. It was usual in colonies to complain of the Home Government; but he thought that this colony had no ground of complaint. A grant of money had been guaranteed annually by Parliament; troops had been sent; and in a very few months he reckoned upon considerable addition in both respects. The reason why the Home Government had not commenced on a large scale at first was, that the expense of a steamer and troops was very great. However, he had every just reason to expect increased assistance ; and he therefore thought it incumbent to raise as much as possible among ourselves. It had been suggested to increase the revenue by a Poll-Tax, but to that he thought there were very many objections, particularly as it would affect the poorest labouring classes. The bill which he now moved should be read a first time, proposed that the rate should commence above £25, whether income or property. There were objections to property paying on the same rate as income, but it was impossible to avoid some evils ; the endeavour was to select that measure which had the least, and he would give his concurrence to that, from whatever source it might originate. The present Property Rate Ordinance had been anticipated to yield between £7,000 and £8,000, but not above £4,000 had been realized, on account of the settlers in the southern settlements excluding from their returns all land and crops. It must not be supposed that the double rates in the proposed amended ordinance would realize double the amount of revenue. In the first year he anticipated not more than £6,000 ; but as soon as the settlers to the southward were possessed of their lands, which would be by the next year, the sum of £10,000 may be fairly expected, and every succeeding year the revenue from such source would increase. The revenue from customs had shown very different results, for that had been decreasing. The returns were, Gross Receipts. Charge. Kett Revenue. 1842 . . £18,000 £4,000 £14,000 1843 . . 16,000 4,000 12,000 1844 . . 14,000 4,000 10,000 In 1845, it was very probable the nett revenue would not have been £9,000, with a prospect of becoming less the following year. With respect to the amount to be named for composition in the new bill, it had been thought that the sum of £12 was very low under the former act. He had inserted the sum of £20 in the bill about to be read, but it was for the Council to decide on its permanent insertion. The scale in the schedule had been carried to £30. It was quite clear that persons would compound rather than pay on the £1,100 ; but the schedule was so formed to determine the scale of surcharge in case of persons not compounding making false returns, yet possessed of income and property exceeding £1,000. It had been thought that half-yearly and annual returns should be made in order that the rate should be made by persons coming into the colony during the current year ; but he thought that the amount that would arise from such alteration would be but very trivial in comparison to the trouble and annoyance it might be to the general body of the settlers, in addition to compelling persons to pay taxes immediately on their arrival in the colony. His great desire and object were to render the ordinance as little inconvenient as possible. For the same reasons, harsh measures had not been taken against those who had neglected to make proper retains. His wish was that the measure should be adopted by the settlers themselves on account of its justice, and, if approved, become a permanent colonial law for raising a revenue ; but, if not,

*o be rejected for some more preferable measure. But he believed there was a general feeling in the colony to pay liberally on this tax, as the best mode of direct taxation. The Governor concluded by moving that the Property Rate Amendment Bill be read a first time.

Mr. Donnelly rose and observed, that, before the question was put, he begged to submit to his Excellency and the Council that this was not the proper time to discuss a bill for the purpose of increasing the burdens of the settlers. The practice in all other colonial Legislative Assemblies was, to have the estimates discussed and settled before the supplies were granted. If bills, such as it was proposed to proceed with to-day, produce tod great or too small a revenue, there would be many evils attendant: in the former case, there would be unnecessary taxation, and in the other insufficient revenue ; but the greatest evil would be, that there would be no means of checking the extravagant expenditure of the colony if the estimates were not at once laid upon the table and considered. The Council would then have the opportunity of reducing the expenditure to the smallest possible sum, and then they might proceed to discuss the best means of raising the supplies. Any other course he conceived would be unsound and unjust ; and therefore he begged to move that the first reading of the Property Rate Amendment Bill and of the Licensing General Dealers Bill be postponed until after the estimates have been considered and passed by the Council.

The Governor said he agreed with the honourable member. He thought it better to discuss the estimates before the ways and means. Mr. Whitaker observed, that, according to the Standing Rules and Order in Council, amendments were to be proposed on the first reading, but, for want of information, it was impossible for him at present to make them. He quite agreed that the estimates should be considered before these two bills, as they might on discussion be much reduced, and thus they might avoid the evils of raising too much or too little revenue.

The Governor said that he so fully agreed with the two non-official members, although contrary to the practice at home, that he should always be an advocate himself for such a course of proceeding. He had a copy of the estimates before him, and they were likewise in the hands of the printer, and would be ready for the honourable members by Saturday. He would just state that the proposed amount of total expenditure for 1845-6 would be £26,565. The certain parliamentary grant is £7,565, but he fully anticipated and reckoned on £2,435 additional, making together £10,000 from England ; consequently, the sum to be raised in the colony would be £16,565. He would suggest that the Clerk should read the estimates for the information of the Council. The Clerk then read the estimates in detail. Mr. Whitaker then moved for the following returns : —

Amount collected under the present Property Rate Ordinance.

An account of the duties paid, distinguishing each, under the late customs, on spirits, malt liquors, and wine.

Sums received from land sales, and how applied. The Governor then laid on the the table a Bill for authorizing Kates or Tolls, &c. ; and a Bill for levying a charge on Deeds of Grant not taken up. To be read a first time on the following Thursday.

The Council then adjourned to eleven o'clock on Saturday.

Saturday, March 8. Present — All the members. The minutes of the last Council being read and confirmed,

The Governor moved that the Standing Orders be suspended, and that the Bill for Appropriating the disposable Revenue of the Colony be laid on the table.

The Governor then stated that, as the subject for the consideration of the Council this day was well understood, he should merely observe that the gross amount of the proposed expenditure would be £25,565, of which £7,565 would be supplied by the Imperial Parliament, and he anticipated on the receipt of his despatches the sum would be made up to £10,000, if not more. The expenditure of this colony was not so great as that of South Australia, which was only one settlement. Here there were many settlements, and it was that circumstance which created the great difficulty of diminishing the present expenditure. He saw no alternative but a concentration of the settlements, if the present machinery of Local Government could not be sustained, and to that the outsettlers themselves were very averse. He should only further allude to the Department of Protectors of Aborigines. They hod formerly allowed a sum for natives as well as for forage, both of which had been abolished, and a commuted allowance of half the amount added to their salary.

Mr. Whitaker observed, that if over the sum of £7,565 voted by the Imperial Parliament the Legislative Council had no control, the items composing such sum had better be struck out, being at variance with the preamble of the bill, which states, " such part of the general revenue of New Zealand as is subject to the disposal of the Colonial Government." Of sums in expectation, viz., the £2,435, he had not much idea ; for he thought it better for Governments as well as individuals to realize their means first and spend them afterwards. There were some redundancies under almost every head throughout the estimates, termed contingencies ; amounting in all to £3,517, exclusive of the general contingencies of £1,107, making above one-seventh of the whole expenditure.

The Governor said that he hoped to satisfy the honourable member. He then entered into detailed explanations of contingencies in each department. In explaining the Survey Department, he observed that the survey of Manakao hod been entirely at his own individual expense, and therefore, in allusion to some observations which had been made elsewhere as to his selection of the surveyor appointed to that service, he conceived he bad a right to disburse his own money in his own way and on whom he pleased. He thought it very desirable that Kaipara, and likewise the entrance to this harbour, should, in like manner, be accurately surveyed, and the sum under the head of contingencies in the Survey Department would be applied to inch purpose*.

I Mr. Donnelly remarked that his Excellency had certainly redeemed his pledge of reducing -the expenditure. He therefore should consider the estimates before them liberally, looking to efficiency of the public service on the one hand, and the depressed conditibn of the colony on the other. With regard to contingencies, he thought that untoward item might be obviated by an account from each office of such disbursements for some previous years, so as to strike an average. He was quite sensible that the number of settlements was the cause of the great expense, but he was quite averse to the abandonment of any of the distant settlements.

The Colonial Secretary laid on the table the returns moved for by Mr. Whitaker.

The Governor moved that they be printed. He then moved the first reading of the " Bill to Appropriate the Revenue for 1845."

After the bill had been read by the Clerk, The Governor, on putting to the consideration of the Council the first item, " for his Excellency the Governor and Establishment, £1,551," stated that by a despatch, dated 3d September last, he had been authorized by the Home Government to add the sum of £300 per annum to his own salary ; but he had not done so, on account of the depressed state of the colony. With regard to former estimates, he was allowed a certain sum for forage ; that item he had abolished in his own case as Well as others ; and in consequence of the great quantity of business that devolved upon him in writing, he had appointed Mr. Tucker as additional secretary, whose efficiency and valuable services in the colony were well known ; so that the sum allowed by Parliament of £1,551 provided for himself and two secretaries. After a few observations on the Audit by Mr. I Whitaker and the Attorney-General, the following sums were voted : — For his Excellency the Governorand Establishment . j?1,551 Law Officers of the Crown 635 Council Office 545 Audit 340 Superintendent of Southern Division 850 The votes for the Colonial Secretary's Department and for the Colonial Treasury were postponed, at the suggestion of Mr. Whitaker, for further information respecting the charge " contingencies." The Governor then laid on the table a Bill for imposing Fees on the delivery of Crown Grants in certain cases, to be read a first time on the following Tuesday, to which day the Council adjourned.

Tuesday, March 11.

Present — All the members. The Governor moved the further consideration of the Estimates.

For Colonial Secretary's Department and Printing Establishment, £1,745 was agreed to after some observations from Mr. Whitaker on the item of contingencies. On the item for Colonial Treasury, £1,090, Mr. Wbitaker said that on investigating the items under this head, he found that it was proposed to increase the establishment by the addition of another clerk. It was true that last year there were numerous accounts to arrange in consequence of the land being paid for by scrip. That now had ceased, and he thought the additional expense to the colony quite unnecessary. He therefore moved that the vote be reduced to the sum of £990.

The Governor stated that it was proposed to collect the Property Rate by the clerks in the treasury. The clerk to whom it was proposed to give a salary had done duty the last two years gratuitously.

The Colonial Treasurer observed that he objected not only to the reduction proposed by the honourable non-official member, but to what was of more consequence to him, namely, the reduction made in his own salary of £100 per annum. He had come out from England with the express understanding of receiving a salary of £600 per annum, and had in consequence incurred great expenses in bringing out his family. Under the present depressed state of the colony, he assured the Council he was quite willing to a reduction of his salary ; but he conceived it but fair that other officers should likewise contribute towards the present exigencies, and that the honourable Colonial Secretary should give up half his salary, and some reduction be made by the honourable Attorney-General. The SurveyorGeneral was, he understood, to be reduced as well as himself. He should not further trespass on the Council, but he should enter a protest on the minutes, to be forwarded to the Home Government.

The Governor remarked that the honourable Colonial Treasurer had overlooked the fact that certain sums and salaries were fixed and paid for by the Imperial Parliament, but that of the Colonial Treasurer was not, for his salary depended on the colony. He would take care that the protest of the Colonial Treasurer as well as that of the Surveyor-General should be forwarded. The Attorney-General said that the Colonial Treasurer had stolen a march upon him, as he had intended to have fought the battle against reductions of the salaries of those who had been induced to leave England, pledged to receive certain annual amounts. It was such a pledge that had induced him and also others ; and he did not think the colony would secure the services of competent persons if the inducement and pledge given were subsequently evaded. Mr. Donnelly conceived there was a wide difference between those officers whose salaries were fixed and provided for by the Imperial Parliament and those which the colony had to pay. If the revenue could fully provide for all, he certainly would not assist in any reduction, but the revenue may be left with great deficiency for the expenditure of such large salaries.

Mr. Whitakbr observed, in reference to the remark of his Excellency, that it was proposed to collect and receive the Property Rate Tax at the Treasury, that there was five per cent, allowed under the act for the expense of collection, and no more.

Mr. He ale, in seconding the motion for the reduction, observed that in comparison with the amount of money transactions performed by the bank, opposite the Treasury, the expense of the latter was enormous. With the manager and one clerk, the amount of £600,000 had passed through their hands, and all proper accounts kept. Mr. Donnelly remarked on the inequality of

the public expenditure between the northern an<L southern settlements. The Governor said that it was the with of th< t Local Government to administer its protection a i much as possible equally; but he was surprise! [ that persons, considering the state of the colony, could locate such a distance from the settlements. People imagined they had a right to go where thej r pleased, and likewise a right to call for protectioi i to follow them. When the New Zealand Com . pany proposed to make their settlements, the Go . vernment at home did all they could to warn them of the consequences; and the New Zealand Com. pany were well aware of the difficulties and danger i to which their first settlers would necessarily biti t subject. The Local Government had but littlu means of protection at its command ; butnowtha i reinforcements were hourly expected, and still greater assistance to follow, every endeavour would be made so to dispose that force as to affon [ protection to all. The course he conceived wi; ought to steer was, not to expose weakness by at ■ tempting too much. At Wanganui, (there wen : many thousand natives; in one pa 1,100 fighting men. No vessel can go there with safety; and to march 200 Or 300 miles through a country when s every ravine and bush would be a point of defenci > to harass and destroy advancing columns, woult I almost annihilate a force. It had been always hi » course, through many years of service, to conside r first well the means he had at command to accomplish certain objects; and any suggestions of measures he always put aside, unless perfectly practicable with the means at his disposal, as idle anil visionary.

The motion was then put, " that the sum q £990 be substituted for £1,090 for Colonial Treeif sury." 7 On a division, the original sum of £1,090 wa's put and carried by the officials. ! The item next considered was "for Judicial viz., Supreme and Local Courts and Coroner*' £3,030.'* ' '

Mr. Whitakbr remarked that if the salaries q the various officers were not reduced, the same object might be attained by a consolidation of offices. The business of the Court of Requests might be transferred to the Supreme Court, and thus a change might be beneficially and easily effected. The duties of the Judge of the Supreme Court were very small : at the last session only two civil causes of very minor importance. There was a precedent for his suggestion in the neighbouring colonies, where the judges were of higher standing and higher salaries. Indeed, when this colony was a dependency of New South Wales, Sir George Gipps had contemplated such a measure, and a bill was passed in New South Wales for this colony and Port Phillip, for the judge to sit in the Court of Requests as well as the Supreme Court ; and Judge Willis had so done at Port Phillip. If at any future time the funds of the colony would allow, the offices might be again separated. The Governor was obliged to the honourable member for the suggestion, but should like to have the opinion of others better qualified on the subject ; and likewise whether the Chief Justice and Justice Chapman could combine the duties. . The Attorney-General was quite certain the matter would be received with every consideration by the Chief Justice ; but could not undertake to say how far his honour might conceive it compatible with the office of Chief Justice. j After some little further discussion, the consideration of the vote was postponed, in order that the Chief Justice might be consulted. > The Governor then proposed " for Sheriff and Gaols, £867."

Mr. Whitaker suggested that on this vote likewise there might be some arrangement so as to combine the duties of sheriff — more especially as it proposed to reduce his responsibility by abolition of imprisonment for debt — with that of police magistrate. Therefore he thought it had better be postponed.

The Governor acquiesced in the suggestion. The consideration was therefore postponed, as well as that "for Magistrates and Police, £3,575." [To be continued.']