House Discusses Scrimgeour Attack; Divergent Views

Northern Advocate, 10 August 1938, Page 6

House Discusses Scrimgeour Attack; Divergent Views

[Per Press Association. Copyright.] WELLINGTON, This Day. WHEN the HOUSE MET AT 2.30, THE RT. HON. G, W. FORBES MOVED THE ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE FOR DISCUSSION OF A MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE, NAMELY THE MISUSE AND ABUSE OF THE NATIONAL BROADCASTING SERVICE ON SUNDAY EVENING LAST BY THE CONTROLLER OF COMMERCIAL BROADCASTING. The Speaker (the Hon, W. E. Barnard) stated that in accordance with the standing practice of the House he had boon consulted on Mr Forbes s motion before the commencement of the silting, and, as the motion appeared to comply with the Standing Orders, he would allow it. Mr. Forbes, in moving the motion in the absence of Mr. Hamilton, who has not yet returned from his southern visit, said he regretted the necessity for it. The attitude of the Opposition in connection with the matter, he said, was in no sense an attitude of personal attack, and, as far as he was concerned, he had no personal feelings on the question, but the Opposition did consider that the Controller of Commercial Broadcasting had been guilty of a breach of the privileges which he enjoyed. Mr. Forbes went on to state that in the past they had often listened to attacks in the House on the heads of different Government departments, and in these cases it was customary that the Minister in Charge of the Department should defend them. This duty had always been the concern of the Minister, and a member of public service was not at liberty to go to the public press or use other means unless he had the approval of his Minister. He stressed the necessity for public servants being strictly impartial in politics, and stated they must not take sides, or else a very serious situation would be created.

Mr. Forbes Hits Out. Personally, said Mr. Forbes, he had not heard Mr. Scrimgeour’s broadcast, but people had come to him and expressed astonishment that matter of the description which had been used during Sunday night’s broadcast should be put over the air. The commercial radio service, said Mr. Forbes, was a new one, and ft placed great power in the hands of its controller, and if that power were misused it would create a great deal of dissatisfaction. Mr. Forbes continued to quote passages of Mr, Scrimgeour’s speech, and expressed concern that an officer of the Government service should use that class of language over the air. He would have had no objection, said Mr. Forbes, if Mr. Scrimgeour had used the language he had in criticising Mr. Justin Power as man to man in the street, but he had used a public service as his medium of attack, and it was unseemly language to use. He did not think there could be two opinions on this point of view. Attack on Newspaper. Mr, Forbes stated that the Controller of Commercial Broadcasting had also made an attack on a local newspaper, but Mr. Forbes pointed out that the press had its duty to do, and if it considered there was ground for criticism, it was its duty to make it. Mr. Forbes also considered that the attack which had been made in the broadcast on members of the Opposition and on the National Party was " unwarrantable. It did not show the impartiality' that' was required in a man occupying the position of controller did. Other people, continued Mr. Forbes, had no access to the broadcasting service to make reply to the attack, and consequently had to suffer injustice. Royal Commission Wanied. .

had, because it enabled him to make a statement on the whole position. Mr W. J. Poison (Opposition—Stratford): Has the resignation been accepted? Mr Savage: No, that is a matter for the. Government. Injured By Friends. Frankly, said Mr Savage, he did not want to have politics broadcast over the air. He stated that recently he had had a conference with the commercial station directors, and had told them the Government did not want politics over the air. The Government’s friends perhaps thought they were assisting it when they put their political views over the air, but they only placed the Government in an embarrassing position. The Government could look after itself in a fair fight, but it knew it would not get it.

He went on to state that during last session, the Opposition had urged that a Royal Commission should be set up to investigate the commercial broadcasting stations. The Opposition knew of statements and rumours which had been levelled at this service, and he would urge, even at this late stage, that investigation should be made, and the position placed before the public so that there would be no further ground for the whispering campaign which was being conducted about the service. The Prime Minister must admit, said Mr. Forbes, that a man who had so little conception of what his position was was not fit to hold his office. The Prime Minister, at this juncture, moved that extension of time be granted to Mr. Forbes. This was granted by the House. Thanking the Prime Minister, Mr. Forbes asked if the debate could continue during the evening, but Mr. Savage stated that they could not wrangle all day on the matter, and Mr. Forbes said the question of time allowed for discussion could be dealt with later. Continuing. Mr. Forbes said he thought the Prime Minister himself would admit that a change in the Controller of Commercial Broadcasting was necessary. There was a good deal of public concern, he said, that the spirit and tradition of our public service should be maintained, and there had been a great breach of U in the present case. The Prime Minister Replies The Prime Minister, on rising to reply, displayed to the Opposition benches a letter of resignation which the Controller of the Commercial Broadcasting Service had handed in to the acting Minister in charge of Broadcasting, the Hon, F. Jones. lasi Thursday, on his arrival from his southern visit. Mr Savage said he was indebted to Mr Forbes for moving the motion he

Opposition cries of “No.” Continuing, Mr Savage said he had sat in the House for twenty years, and had listened to attacks made on the heads of departments whose hands were tied, and whose tongues were i tied as far as defending themselves was concerned, but at last they had come to someone who would not stand it Mr Savage added that one of his best friends was implicated in the present discussion, for Mr Scrimgeour was a personal friend of his, and he was not going to apologise for him. When Mr Scrimgeour had come back from his recent holiday, said Mr Savage, he found statements had been made about him that he was clearing out of the country. These statements, he said, were in keeping with the attitude of some members to all members of the public service. Hands And Tongues Tied. Mr Forbes had said it was the duty 1 of the Minister in charge of Iho department to defend their officers when criticised, but ho would say it was the duty of critics to attack the Minister in charge of the department and not the head of a department concerted. He had seen the heads of departments listening in the House to criticisms of their character, and they had been unable to reply. Resignation Handed In. Before Sunday night’s lecture was given, continued the Prime Minister, Mr Scrimgeour’s resignation was in the hands of the acting Minister in charge of the department. If anyone doubted it—

Mr Poison; No one is doubting it. The Prime Minister added that he was not defending what had happened on Sunday night. He was saying that it was just a plain human action. Members of the Opposition might sometimes sin themselves, and should not set themselves up as angels. The job of Controller of Commercial Broadcasting was not an easy one, said Mr Savage, and Mr Scrimgeour was doing it better than he (Mr Savage) could have done it. A Human Failure. “I am not going to apologise to anyone,” said Mr Savage. “I am just dealing with human failure to put up with abuse which has been levelled at him. I have been waiting for someone to say that he did not have to put up with it.” A Wellington newspaper had been brought into it, said the Prime Minister, and Mr Forbes had talked about freedom of the Press. What a lopsided thing it was! There had not been a single day without a leading article appearing in the Press criticising the Government. Mr Forbes had asked for a Royal Commission, but ho would point out that the accounts of the commercial broadcasting stations were audited by the Auditor-General and had to be passed, as had other departmental accounts. and lie would not appoint a Royal Commission. What more was wanted?

Characters On Screen.

The character of Mr Scrimgeour had also been referred to, but that gentleman’s character would bear putting on the screen alongside that of any member of the House. Mr Forbes: I don’t think I referred to the character of the gentleman. Mr Savage: You used the word character. I know what veiled innuendo means, taut I. will not stand to see his character attacked—the character of a man whoso hands and tongue are tied, Mr Poison; Was his tongue tied on Sunday night? Mr Savage continued that he would like to see a public referendum choosing between the member for Stratford and Mr Scrimgeour. He knew what the result would be.

Referring to the question of freedom of spech over the air, the Prime Minister said the Government (was well aware of what had been happening over all the commercial stations. What freedom would there be, he asked, if everyone were allowed to say what they liked about everyone else over the air? Running Amok Deplored. “If the controller of a station runs amok, that is to be deplored,” said Mr Savage, “but we understand his very human feelings,” He had no right of reply anywhere, and his tongue and hands were tied. Mr Savage could easily understand any man’s failure under those circumstances. Mr Scrimgeour’s salary had been mentioned, but he was prepared to let it go. He wanted to get out to defend himself. Mr Savage added that it was the Government’s job to see that stations were as free as possible from the sort of thing that had happened. Mr. Savage said he could also understand the feelings of Opposition members, and he stressed the difficulty experienced by the Minister in charge c-f the broadcasting service in controlling everything which went over the air. Mr. Scrimgeour, said Mr. Savage, would not go out if he (Mr. Savage) could prevent him, but he was afraid it would bo impossible to stop him. Everything, said the Prime Minister, in conclusion, had been done to keep the broadcasting service as free from personalities or politics as possible.

General Discussion. Expressing the hope that the Prime Minister would see that Cabinet accepted Mr. Scrfmgeour’s resignation, Mr. S. A. Smith (Opposition-New Plymouth), said the real complaint in respect to Sunday night’s broadcast was that the choice of language used was repugnant to the Christian principles of the people of New Zealand. The words were not those of a Christian gentleman.

stated that we were all human. The incident of Sunday night had occurred because Mr. Scrimgeour had reached breaking point under the attacks that had been made on him. This discussion would clear the air and perhaps they could prevent this thing from happening again, and allow Mr. Scrimgeour to continue to work towards the ideal he had set for himself. Insults Over the Air. Mr. H. S. S. Kyle (OppositionRiccarton), said Mr. Sullivan had protected a civil servant because he had preached social justice, but he had not said what was to be done when the country had to listen to insults of the type put over the air on Sunday night. Mr. Kyle added that he strongly objected to the broadcast for many reasons. Not the least of these was the damaging effect on children of the language used. He added that he could not believe the Prime Minister was 100 per cent, behind Mr, Scrimgeour, as he was two years ago. Provocation. The Attorney-General (Mr. H. G. R. Mason), said one could not approve of the intemperate language used by Mr, Scrimgeour, but one could understand the provocation. It would have been better if Opposition members themselves had exercised more restraint and provided less provocation on occasions in the past. The Opposition had to take some responsibility for what had happened, declared Mr. Mason. Their party paid a man who made quite unfair and unjustifiable references to Mr. Scrimgeour. It was not a fair way of conducting politics at all. Found Wanting.

Mr. R. A. Wright (TndependentWellingtoh Suburbs), said he would agree that there were occasions when strong language was necesary, but he would say Mr. Scrimgeour was in a position where he, of all men, should control himself, and not use language that would be condemned by the average individual. It had been shown that he was not qualified to retain his position, or that, at any rate, there should be somebody to censor his addresses beforehand,

Civil Service Honour at Stake,

Mr. W. A. Bodkin (Opposition-Cen-tral Otago), said the Prime Minister had made it clear that ho was a very great personal friend of Mr. Scrimgeour, and that he was not going to lose his services if he could avoid it. No other public servant had ever been rebuked to the extent that Mr. Scrimgeour had been rebuked by the Minister of Education when charges had been made against him in the press. Tire Opposition look up the attitude that the honour of the Civil Service was at stake. It was the duty of the Government to see that the honour of the service was cleared, and that could only be done through a Royal Commission. Mr. Bodkin said Mr. Scrimgeour had complained of charges made against him, but he had full and adequate recourse in the courts and newspapers. Vicious System Mr. A. S. Richards said the whole theme of the Opposition speeches had been a demand for acceptance of the resignation of Mr. Scrimgeour, who was a particularly competent officer. This was so because Mr. Scrirngeour for years had been educating the public to the viciousness of the present system, which the Opposition was seeking to perpetuate. Shocked by Delivery Mr. K. J. Holyoake (Opposition — Molueka) said he would not say he had been shocked by the theatrical words used, but he was shocked at the way in which they had been used. He criticised the Postmaster-General, who had been acting-Minister in Charge of Broadcasting, for not taking part in the debate, and. added Mr. Holyoake,

Two Alternatives. The Rev. C. Carr (GovernmentTimaru), said the Controller of Commercial Broadcasting had two alternatives, and had to make a choice, because he had been attacked. He had either to defend himself or be defended. Mr, Carr referred to the remarks of one member of the Opposition as malicious and malignant, but withdrew the words when the Speaker intervened. The language used on Sunday night, said Mr. Carr, was good old fashioned Anglo-Saxon. Beyond All Reason. Mr. H. G. Dickie (Opposition-Patea), described Sunday night's broadcast as an outrage beyond all reason, and said if Mr. Scrimgeour’s resignation was not accepted it would be the end of all discipline. Clearing the Air, The Minister of Industries and Commerce (the Hon. D. G. Sullivan), said he hoped the Prime Minister would have his way on this question. The Prime Minister had explained the position correctly, and had taken the right altitude. He had not attempted to defend the langunge user:, out had

surely he was responsible for Mr. Scrimgeour's actions. Run on Proper Lines The acting-Minister in Charge of Broadcasting (the Hon. F. Jones) said the commercial service had been run on proper lines. He reiterated the Prime Minister's statement that commercial station managers had been told that propaganda would not be tolerated, and, generally speaking, the service had run very smoothly. There had been innuendos by Opposition members, and he could understand how the controller had resented them, though he did not say he was right in what he had done. The Minister continued that Mr. Scrimgeour’s resignation had been received by him on August. 4, after he had returned from the south. His resignation had not been considered up to the time the address had been given. The Minister did not know what lines it would follow, and he was rather surprised at the lines it had taken. Debate Ended Just before 5.30, the Rt. Hon. J. G. Coates (Opposition—Kaipara) asked whether the debate was to be continued in the evening. The Prime Minister’s answer was an emphatic negative.