PARLIAMENTARY.

Lyttelton Times, Volume LXXIV, Issue 9150, 9 July 1890, Page 6

PARLIAMENTARY.

{Tub Press Association.] Tuesday, July 8. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. AFTERNOON SITTING. The Council met at 2.30. RETORTS ON BILLS. The Hon W. D. H. Baillie brought up the report o£ the Roman Catholic Lands ' Extension Bill, and Canterbury Church Property Bill. The Committee recommended that both Bills be allowed to proceed. THE LITTLE SILVER ROSES. The Hon C, J. Pharazyn gave notice to move nest day—“ That all correspondence between Government and Mr Creighton relative to the importation of the little silver foxes sent on to Sydney be laid on the table.” EXTENSION OR TIME. The Hon J. N. Wilson moved without notice —“ That the time for which the Select Committee on Trustees Bill have to bring up their report be extended to twenty-one days.” Agreed to. BILL PASSED. The Mercantile Agents Bill was read a third time and passed. THE ARBITRATION BILL was further considered in Committee. On consideration of Clause 16 progress was reported and leave given to sit again. THE OATHS BILL The Oaths Bill was further considered in Committee. / The following danse was substituted for Clause 2:—" Every person required to give evidence in any court of law shall be enentitled as of right to make a solemn affirmation in lieu of taking the oath, and upon such person demanding to make such affirmation the same be tendered to him without argument and without any question being asked.” The Bill was reported with amendments, and the third reading fixed for next day. BILLS IN COMMITTEE. The Public Bodies Corrupt Practices Bill was considered in Committee. Objection taken to Clause 6, providing that prosecutions under the Act be undertaken by the Attorney-General. Eventually the clause was postponed, progress reported, and leave given to sit again. The Educational Reserves Leasing Bill was considered in Committee. Clause 2 having been slightly amended, progress was reported, leave being given to sit again. ' INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS ACT AMENDMENT.

The Hon Dr Pollen resumed the debate on the Industrial Schools Act Amendment Bill. In. doing so he said he could not •gree with the Hon Mr Stevens, that the draughtsman had constructed the Bill on the lines of the Imperial Act. Dr Pollen referrad to the clause giving power to arrest girls of seventeen years, who might be found under equivocal circumstances, or in evil company. He remarked that they had yet to learn why the State should step in and take charge of girls situated as those proposed to be dealt with under the provisions of this Bill. There were a large number of admirable benevolent institutions in the Colony, notably the Mount Magdala Asylum, Christchurch, where neglected girls might be sent without the State taking charge of them. The taxpayers were already sufficiently burdened without the cost of the additional burden on them of erecting new schools. He would not oppose the second reading, but in Committee would endeavour to effect certain alterations in the Bill in the direction indicated. The Hon J. N. Wilson opposed the Bill as being unworkable. The Hon S. E. Shkimski also opposed the Bill as being calculated to further oppress local bodies. The Hon 0. J. Phaeazyn sonsidered/hat the Bill should bj»*j£Tstpon«£ uhthT’;/ 2 question jfw'gJrSntable aid had '&-=a ■ \ The motion for the second reading/was agreed to by 14 to 3. / DENTISTS ACT AMENDMENT. -■ The Hon E. C. J. Stevens moved the second reading of the Dentists Act Amendment Bill, which he explained relaxed to the penalty for improper impersonation and extended further opportunity for “ plucked ” students to again present themselves for examination. The motion for the second reading was •greed to on the voices. The Hon E. C. J. Stevens gave notice for next day to move that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee. The Council at 4.7 p.m. adjourned to next day. HOUSE OP EEPEESENTATIYES. AFTERNOON SITTING. The House met at 2.30. NOTICES Off MOTION. Mr Monk gave notice to move in Committee of Supply, that the first item on the Estimates be reduced by £l, as an indication that Government reduce them by .£50,000. Mr Smith gave notice to move, as an addition, that such reduction should not apply to the Postal and Telegraph Department in the case of salaries of officers below £2OO. TEE BANK OF NEW ZEALAND. The Hon B. Mitchblbon said he had intended to move for a Committee to enquire into the charges made against Government by the member for Waitotara, in connection with the Bank of New Zealand, hut he would take an opportunity of doing so to-morrow, if the House would allow him to move the motion without notice. He wished to say that he had to thank the member for Waitotara for his courtesy in forwarding Hansard proofs of his speech to the Premier. REDUCTION OF THE ESTIMATES.

Mr Guinness asked Government whether it was correct, as reported in that morning's paper, that Government had promised a section of the House that they would reduce their Estimates by .£50,000. The Hon E. Mitchelson asked the hon gentleman to give notice of his question. Mr Guinness refused to give notice, as there was no reason why Government should not give a reply to this question straight out. He moved the adjournment of the House to enable the matter to be debated. His opinion was that the financial debate should not be proceeded with till the House knew whether or not Government intended to make this reduction. Mr Samuel quite agreed with the last speaker. He thought it a very improper thing for Government, to > make any such promise to any section of the House, and he expressed great regret at seeing such an announcement'as had appeared that morning Government had only recently obtained proof, by a vote of the House, that no change of Government was desired, and he thought it a very wrong thing that they should be subjected to motions of this kind at the,instance of any section of the House. Sir G. Grey considered the motion should be to the effect that the House should adjourn till Government had replied to the question put by the member for Greymouth. His opinion was that it should be left to a new Parliament to make the proposed reduction, and he moved an amendment—“ That the House adjourn till a reply had been received from Government." ’ Mr Beeves (St Albans) said under certain circumstances it would not be surprising that Government should not reply to this question, but it was a matter of notoriety. that an answer had been given to a certain number of members of the House. It was not decent or proper that such a state of things should exist without the House being made aware of it. It meant that Government 'had completely changed'their .policy, and that they were now about to do what the country had demanded of them, simply because they were afraid of losing a few 1 votes. The agreement entered into would give the Government far too much power, and the House,should be at once informed of its nature. He contended that before the fiaanoiaPdobate was advanced any farther they should know what had taken place. • TJjie itori E, Mitchelson said theaueation

put by Mr Guinness was perfectly reasonable, but ho was not at present in a position to inform the House of the arrangements come to. Negotiations such as were referred to were going on, and at the proper time he should state the result. In the meantime he hoped members would cease talking, and go on with business. Dr Fitchett said this was one of the difficulties of dual leadership. They could not expect the Acting Premier to know what arrangements the Premier was making. Mr Walker .expressed surprise at the action of the Native Minister, and thought there was nothing to prevent his making a statement of what had been done.

Mr Seddon suggested that the House should go on with the and postpone the financial debate till Ministers .were in a position to reply to Mr Guinness’ question. There was no .more important question than that the House should be made aware in what direction Government intended to make this reduction, and be suggested an adjournment till half-past seven, in order that Government might be in a position to reply to the question put to them. The matter was a very serious one, and they had no right to go on with the financial debate till they had the information they wanted. Mr Moss hoped the people of the country would not be content till they had remodelled the Government of the country, and saved p.t least ,£200,000. He appealed to Mr Monk, as to whether it was seemly for him, and those who were acting with him, to take up the position they had done for the sake of saving £50,000. As to the cost of a second session, that should not be considered when such important issues were at stake. Mr Barron said that members should be very thankful if a certain section of the House had succeeded in doing what the Government had failed to do. He agreed with Mr Moss that the Estimates could be reduced much more than was at present proposed, but he hoped members of all sides of the House would assist in carrying the reductions now promised,: Mr Fish thought Government occupied a most ignominious position over this matter. If any arrangement had heenmade the House should at once be made aware of it. He held it was the bounden duty of the Opposition to force the Government to go to the country, and to refuse them further supplies than would carry them over the elections. If the Government could not take the responsibility of governing the country they should vacate their seats at once, or at any rate they should apply for an immediate dissolution. Mr . Taylor and Mr Reeves (Inangahua) spoke to the same effect. Mr Fisher asked how long this solemn farce was to last. He had no objection to those eleven gentlemen making themselves ridiculous by tbeir action, but be did object to the Parliament of New Zealand being made ridiculous. Whatever proposals were to he made should be made openly in the House, and not in the Premier's office. He was astonished at a Government who occupied such a humiliating position as the present one continuing to sit on the benches, but be was more surprised at a particular member of the Ministry, who had some honour to preserve, allowing this state of things to exist. He continued speaking for some time longer against the policy of the Government. Sir J. Hall said he wished to make a personal explanation. Allusion had been very frequently made to his having been with the Premier at the time the deputation waited on that hon gentleman on Saturday, and it had been hinted he was present by design. There would be nothing very criminal if he had been there by design, but, as a matter of fact, he was present in the Premier’s room at the time by chance, not by design. The motion for the adjournment of the House was then put and lost. THE FINANCIAL DEBATE. Mr Saunders resumed the debate on the Financial Statement. In doing so he deeply regretted that the Colonial Treasurer was not present during this debate, and he regretted still more that ill-health was the cause of his absence. He had often worked with the Premier in the House, and much more often worked against him, as the Premier was of a much more sanguine temperament than he (Mr Saunders) was. He, however, had never for a moment doubted the Premier’s sincerity or patriotism in his public career. Although he had such a kindly feeling towards the Premier, he felt that it was not right that the hon gentleman should continue to hold office when he was too unwell to appear in the House, and it was not fair to the Premier himself to put him in that position. His opinion was that a reconstruction of the Ministry should have taken place, especially as at least two men on the- Ministerial side of the House bad held office with honour to themselves, and had achieved the singular distinction of effecting practical economy in their administration. Referring to Federation, he was not at all satisfied with the position taken up by this Colony on that question, as ho thought we had everything to gain and nothing to lose by Federation. They should, of course, not federate except on the condition of Freetrade, and that would benefit their farmers immensely. Another advantage of Federation would be that it would sweep away centralisation, by which everything was absorbed in Wellington. The greatest boon, however, would be that Federation would do away with borrowing. If they had never been able to borrow a single shilling, they would have been a much more prosperous Colony. He referred to the absence in the Financial Statement of any allusion to the great question of capital and labour, and he considered the Premier would have done honour to himself if he had proposed some remedy for that. He had tried his utmost to understand the Statement, and the more he understood it the less he liked it. The figures were nob, perhaps, absolutely wrong. There was no use in saying that the Colony was prosperous when it was not so. The reason for this was that for some years back they had had Governments in office who bad no idea of economy, no regard for prudence, and were continually adding to the" debt of the country. He had always disbelieved in surpluses that were gained by borrowed money, but the present surplus had, he thought, disap. peared altogether ; in fact, the balance of the Colonial Treasurer was destroyed by the Ballance of Opposition. He hoped the House would not agree to the imposition of the primage duty for education purposes; the Customs duty was Hie proper source from which to derive funds for the education of the children of the Colony. The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 p.m. adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr Saunders continued bis remarks, referring at ‘some length to the education question. He said he was one of a partv that endeavoured to effect a reduction ot £50,000; but he would have had greater pleasure if the reduction had been ,£300,000, and he was still very much dissatisfied. He. had seen a Government on those benches which were far better administrators than the present one, and with a more efficient Civil Service, and yet the cost .of that Government was very much less. After speaking at length on what he considered the evils of Protection as compared with Freetrade, he said what he wanted was a total reconstruction of everything connected with our Government. He thought that party feeling should be put aside, and the best men on both sides of the House elected to form a really able Governmeat, one that would never allow this country to bo saddled with a service altogether out of proportion to its necessities. Mr Moss desired to refer to the misconception that existed amongst members as to the cost of a second session. One member actually put it down at £IOO,OOO, whereas another represented it as i 115,000, but he (Mr Moss) considered the latter estimate too high, as he believed that tbo cost would not bo more than £13, 000. He thought it was a pity that members’ honorariums were not made annual, as there would then be no talk of the expense of a second session. If that were so. he.

felt sure the House would have been dissolved a fortnight ago. He had felt great pleasure in listening to Mr Bryce’s speech a few nights ago, and he was pleased to hear that he (Mr Moss) was no longer tho only Cassandra in the House, although ho was not aware bis tone was particularly gloomy when addressing them. It was imperative, however, that some change should be made in our system of Government, and if they were not prepared to take prompt action they should leave it to the next Parliament to do so, as the position was a most alarming one. Ho referred in detail to the financial position of the Colony. The Hon Captain Russell said it appeared to him, from the character of the speeches delivered on the other that these speakers were quite as incapable of filling the office of Premier as they would have the House to believe Sir H. A. Atkinson was. It was not tho first time the Premier of New Zealand did not occupy a seat in the Chamber. Did they not all know that Sir F- Whitaker, tbe Hon G. M. Waterhouse, and the Hon Dr Pollen had been Premiers of the Colony and had not seats in the House of Representatives ? Mr Fish bad stated that the Premier was politically dead, and yet, in the same breath, he had told them that withoutthe Premier the Ministry would not live a day. As to the imputation that the party had asked the Premier to continue merely for their own preservation, he had no hesitation in saying that no such base and sordid motives had entered their heads. His (Captain Russell’s) opinion was that to a man of Sir Harry Atkinson’s temperament it was far better for him to transact a little work every day and consult his colleagues than to send him to the quietness of a remote village. Referring to Mr •Ballance’s statements about the surplus, he thought it came with a very bad grace from that hon gentleman, when one remembered that Sir Harry Atkinson had to put on a grinding taxation to meet the abnormal deficit left by tho Government of which Mr Ballance was a member. He defended the land administration of tbe Government, and contended that the proposal of the Government forroading Crown lauds was practical, and likely to be very beneficial to settlers. He regretted Mr Ballance’s absence, as he wished to refer to several statements he had made in his speech. That hon gentleman, to hia mind, wished to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds, and he wished to be all things to all _men. Coming to the defence expenditure, Mr Ballance had stated that as -£500,000 was already spent on defences there was no occasion to spend anything further, but he thought that was a very extraordinary argument. The position at present was that they possessed four forts at the four chief cities. They had 78 quick-firing guns, which were mounted by 133 artillerymen; but to have a single detachment at each fort would require 616 men, and to man the batteries properly would take 1224 men. They were now maintaining a large Volunteer force, for which they were getting practically nothing at all. Volunteers could not assist in the work performed by the regular force. Ho defended the Property tax at some length, and said he had for many years been in favour of a tax of that nature. He again asserted, referring to the land question, that there had been a greater number pub on the land during the present Minister’s term of office than ever there was before in the same time. There was also an enormous increase in the agricultural and pastoral land disposed of during that time, so that anybody who stated that that administration was a failure was not quite correct in making that statement. He quoted from statistics to prove that the statement, which was constantly being reiterated, that people were drifting away from our shores was not borne out by the Registrar - General’s figures. The reason why such a large exodus occurred in 1888 was owing to the large decrease in the public works expenditure in that year, and he thought so soon as they returned to their normal condition so soon would their population return to the Colony. Government had been taunted by the member for St Albans with having done nothing to stop the exodus except to take him (Captain Russell) into the Cabinet, but he had no idea that his presence in the Cabinet would have that effect; as a matter of fact, however, he was sworn in in October, and in November 755 more people came into the Colony than went out of it, while in December 2655 people arrived in tbe Colony and only 1477 went out, so that here again the Colony gained by 1477 people in that month. It seemed, therefore, as if the member for St Albans had paid him a compliment which was somewhat deserved. He said, however, to pass from this semi-jocular tone, that the Colony was able to keep the people here when it got them, and in spite of all that had been said against it the Colony was, in his opinion, still the best country on the face of the earth. Referring to Mr Hutchison’s speech, he said he could not understand how such a cautious and acute person as that hon gentleman could be led into making such egregious mistakes as he had done when alluding to the Government. He gave a detailed account of the pioceedings of the Federation Conference at Melbourne, which was attended by Sir J. Hall and himself. The Colony was pledged to nothing at that Conference, except to recommend that this New Zealand Parliament should send over delegates to the National Convention. There was no secret meeting with Sir Henry Parkes as stated by Mr Ballance. He . (Captain Russell), believed New Zealand’s destiny was to be independent of Australian Federation, hut if delegates mere seat to that convention it would, no doubt, he very beneficial to the Colony, as he thought we should have every chance then of effecting reciprocity with the other Colonies. He strongly resented Mr Ballance’s remarks about Major - General Edwards, whom the member tor Wanganui referred to in most ungenerous and contemptible terms. The fact was that MajorGeneral Edwards was a man who was always to be found wherever bullets were flung, and where the greatest danger existed. There was scarcely room across his broad breast for the decorations bestowed on that officer by Her Majesty. He (Major-General Edwards) had come to New Zealand, at great inconvenience to himself, at the request of the Government, and this was the man who was described by Mr Ballance as a political tout for one of the Australian Colonies. Referring to retrenchment of salaries, he asserted that it was not so easy to do that as it appeared. As a matter of fact, the amount* of salaries of officers in the big wooden building was only £75,000, mostly under £2OO each. Then, again, only that afternoon one member had given notice to move that the Postal and Telegraph Department should not be touched. With respect to the police force, he pointed out that New Zealand _ possessed the cheapest force iu the Colonies, and he did not think there could be any greater reduction in salaries. Ho had travelled through every part of the Colony lately, and he believed the country still had confidence in tho Government. If, however, the Government were defeated at the elections, they would at once resign, their seats, and would give a loyal assistance to any Ministry that might be formed who tried to carry out what they considered a sound policy. Ur Taylor had listened to Captain Russell’s speech with great pleasure. He pointed out that when that hon gentleman was on the other side of the House he had strongly denounced the Ministerial allowances of the Stout-Vogel Government; but he was sorry tosaythatthepresentGovernment were pursuing the same style of extravagance ifi that direction. He thought the land policy of the Government was suited to the North Island, and not to the South. He considered that the Government had np policy, and no cohesion amongst themselves. A 8 for Mr Bryce, who was regarded as a coming leader, he (Mr Taylor) thought he was a small and very unittollectual man. lie did not believe, however, in the Opposition, attacking tho Government as they did, as he thought the present Ministry was a fair average of tiie members of their party. It was all very well for the Colonial - Secretary to tulk about people not leaving the Colony,

amt quoting the Registrar - General’s llguroti. but if they wanted the correct IlgtifOfi they nhould look at the Lyttelton Timtii, hocaiißo they took the trouble to obtain tbo correct figures. He advised the Government, after all this waste of valuable time, to pass a few of their little bills, Hike nix months’ supplies, and then goto tho country. Dr Fitojiktt moved the adjournments of tho debate. Agreed to. Tho House rose at 11.80 p.m.