PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Lyttelton Times, Volume XLIII, Issue 4451, 20 May 1875, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wednesday, May 19. The Speaker took the chair at 5 p.m. petition. ; •' Mr Pilliet presented a petition from residents of Okain’s Bay, praying i for the erection of a wharf. The petition was read and received. PETITION OP H. N. NALDEE. Mr Jebson brought up the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the matters contained in the petition of H. N. Nalder, of Lyttelton, solicitor. The committee recommended that the sum of £7O should be poid to the petitioner as compensation. John Jebson, Chairman.' SCAB. On the motion of Mr Bluett', the committee appointed to report on this subject was discharged. PEITILEGB. Mr Jebson rose to apeak to a question of privilege, and he had also to make a request. The request he bad to make of the hon member for Christchurch and the House, was to allow motion No. 11 to be brought forward first. As regarded himself, he thought the reqflest only a reasonable one. He begged to move a motion to that effect. Dr Tuenbull seconded the motion, which was agreed to. pYTTBLTON AND CHEISTCHUECH BAILWAy. Mr Webb, without notice, asked if the Secretary for Public Works would furnish a return qf the number of passengers who passed over the Lyttelton and Christchurch railway on New Year’s Day, and the amount of revenue derived therefrom. The Hon J. T. Peacock replied that , the number of passenger* were 4262, and the amount of revenue, £239 10s.

SOUTH dASTBEBTTET DIBTBIOT. Dr Raynbe asked the Government If it is their intention to appoint an Inspector of Weights and Measures for the South Canterbury district / and if so, when * Mr Maseell requested the bon member to

rtpeftt hi* question next' day. He mi not now prepared to answer the queition.

MBBSEB HOLMES AND CO. Mr Bluett asked the Provincial Secretaryi what steps the Government intend to take respecting the claims of Messrs Holmes and Co.? Mr Maskbll replied that the Government, did not intend tb take any steps in the matter.' The Government thought that any steps taken should come from Messrs Holmes and Co. < r PIBBT AND SECOND CLASS FABSENGBBS. Mr White asked the Secretary for Public I Works if he was aware that second-class passengers were allowed to travel in first-class carriages on the Canterbury railways on Saturdays, to the annoyance and inconvenience of first-class passengers, when r many of the second-class carriages were empty at the time.

The Hon J. T. Peacock regretted that complaints of this nature were not made to : the proper quarter; but for the informa- : tion of the bon member and himself, . be would read the following' documents ; on the eubjeot from the Traffic Manager ’ and Station-master at Christchurch s " May 19,1875. To the Senretary for Public Works —Re Mr White’s motion, lam not aware that second-class passengers are allowed to travel in first-class carriages on Saturdays, I nor do 1 think that Mr White can substantiate his statement beyond an exceptional case, such as described by the enclosed letter from Mr Hesketh. Nothing of the kind has ever come under my personal notice, and 1 have not before had any complaints. I have issued special instructions, cautioning, the guards against anything of this kind, and this is all I can do, unless Mr White is prepared to name any particular case for investigation. —J. Lawson, Traffic Manager.” “ Memo for Traffic Manager, May 19, 1875, Christchurch station. Sir, — Leaving Christchurch station first and secondclass passengers go into the same class: they are booked for. I may say there is only one day in the week that a second-class passenger would have the slightest chance of going into a first-class carriage, and that would only be to save the person from being left behind at a roadside station. On Saturday all our carriages are crammed full, besides waggons we have seated, and use them for carriages. Ido not know of one case of a second-class passenger going into a first-class carriage leaving Christchurch.—H. Hesketh, Christchurch sta- ; tionmaster.” feivilege. Dr Tueniull moved—“ That it be an instruction to the committee appointed May 11, 1 1875, No. 6 Notice Paper, &o, Mr Jebson; mover, to procure an office copy of a deed registered in the Deeds Registry as No. 18349, to; consider and report upon the facts mentioned in the said de6d; and further, to attach the said office copy to its report when brought up for presentation to the Council.” The hon member said he might state what the object of the motion was,- When the hon member (Mr Jebson) moved for the appointment of’a Select Committee, he (Dr Turnbull) said that .he thought another hon member acquainted with the matter should be placed on the committee. He thought the Government advised the hon member for Rakaia, instead of moving for certain returns, to move for a committee of three to investigate the matter and report to the House. The committee was extended to seVen, of which the hon member for Rakaia was Chairman. The matter not only affected the credit of one or two parties, but the whole of the departments through which the matter passed were also involved. From the information. supplied to him (Dr Turnbull) it appeared that the hon member (Mr Jebson)'held a money interest in the sections in dispute. The House would hardly expect him to go through the bundle of papers to investigate the truth: of this assertion; but he thought he'was! justified.in calling attention to it, without! going into full details. The information given to him (Dr Turnbull) was that Mr Jebson had: a direct money value in the sections referred; to. Of course if the hon member denied that he Rad, then there would be an end. of the matter, and the House must accept his statement. As the matter at present stood, there were affected by it large landed proprietors,:

the'Survey Department, the Waste Lands Board and this House, in consequence of the hon member for Bakaia sitting on the committee. He thought it his duty to bring the matter before tue House, lest the outside public might have an opinion detrimental to the impartiality with which hon members discharged their duties towards the .public. He might say that the information he' had derived from the deed mentioned in his motion, was between I. B. Sheath and the hon member for Bakaia. H the hon member proved that there was no truth in the assertions he had made, he (Dr Turnbull) would be very glad to tender an apology to the hon member for Bakaia. (Hear, hear.) Mr Jebson said he was still in ignorance of what the hon member for Christchurch was driving at. He did not know anything of the existence of the deed to which the hon gentleman referred. He thought that in matters of this kind, three things were necessary in impugning the character or actions of any hon member of that House. First, in relation to all members of the House, veracity; secondly, integrity; and third, honour. If the hon member had inquired of him before he brought him so prominently before the public of the province and colony and outside the colony, he (Mr Jebson), if the assertions of the hon member had been true, would have considered it to be his duty to resign his seat in that House. He would do the hon member the justice to say that, indirectly, a message was conveyed to him that it would be wellto inquire what his position in the House was; and he further learnt that

he wag threatened with all kinds of thihgs for placing himself iq the position he had. He thought the hon member should have in* formed him of the charges which were : laid against him. In, that case, if he (Mr Jebson) had discovered that ho had by accident been led into r a position which was incompatible with his holding a seat in that Hohse, he (Mr Jebson) would have at once apolpgiscd to the House, and withdrawn himself from the com• mittee. But the hon member did not adopt this course. He did not know what document the hon member referred to, and all he could say was'that he (Mr Jebson) was not aware of the existence of- a document which gaye- him any monetary interest whatever in these properties. The only interest he ever had in the 1 property was far below the surface, and that was surrendered by deed three years ago. The burden of proof laid with the hon member for Christchurch. ' It was for him to prove that he (Mr Jebson) had any monetary interest in these properties. If the case was as the hon member for Christchurch had stated it, that interest in the property was condoned by the deed of surrender, which was legally executed, and the truth of his statement could be ascertained by referring to the solicitors engaged by both parties. He (Mr Jebson) was not an Andrew Marvel, but he could dine twice off a joint of mutton, even a.small one, and if it were necessary, take a third meal in hash. Whatever the. hon member's object was in bringing him so prominently before the public, he (Mr Jebson) could not do more than simply deny the allegations that were made by the hon member for Christchurch on the previous day. He might also add that he had no communication either directly or indirectly with the Government in respect to this matter. He met the statement of the hon member for Christchurch with a flat denial, and he challenged him to maintain his position. (Hear, hear.) The hon member for Christchurch did not tell the House that he was disqualified, because last year he accepted £6O as an'honorarium as physician to the Christchurch Hospital, and the same sum. was on the Estimates to pay to the hon gentleman for .the present year. W onld the hon member say that, under the Disqualification Act, he ought to occupy a seat in that House P Mr Wynn Williams denied that the Government or himself had at all instigated the hon member for Bakaia' in any action which be had taken in this matter.

Mr W. B. TosswiLii inquired whether this question had been referred to a former committee., , Mr Masebx.li said that this was not the same question which was before the committee last year, but he understood that it did crop up before’a committee appointed last year to inquiry into the general question of surreys. Mr' , Bi.trKTT h6ped the hon member for Christchurch would afford the House some

farther ihfbrmalldh'as to the deed he hid referred to, before asking hon votoJor thejmotion he boa proposed'.' Dr Tubhbttlili, in reply, said that after the very natural burst; of indignation on the part of the hbn pifmSfr lor Rokaia, the question narrowed itself into one of burthen of prbof. If the hon member for the Bakaia proved that the rumours which had b«en circulated concerning his connection with this property were untrue, then fye thought the hpn tnetfafcer' would hare done a great deal of goaa in showing, to the public that members- of: that House were above doing anything that was incompatible with .their position as non members. He might say, in reply to Mr Bluett, that he got his information from a lease made, in the year 1866 between Mr L B. Sheath and Mr John Jebson. This lease unquestionably showed that the hon member for Bakaia had a proprietory interest in this property. Mr Jebson said he had an interest in these properties at one time, but three years ago he surrendered that interest absolutely; and if the surrender was not registered it was not his fault. That was in 1872, and he had no interest, direct or indirect, in the properties mentioned in the motions of May 6 and 7. He thought the hon member for Christchurch might have made himself better informed before he dragged him (Mr Jebson) before the public in the way be did. Before this, he felt sure the hon member for Christchurch must feel that he had either been misinformed, or had wilfully dragged him (Mr Jebson) before the public. The motion was then put, and negatived on the voices. Dr Tubnbttll said that if the House was satisfied with the explanation of the hon member for Bakaia, he (Dr Turnbull) accepted the decision of the House. The matter then dropped. CASK OP JOHN fl-LTNAN. Mr Pilhbt moved—" That the Provincial Secretary be requested, to place before the Council the result of the inquiry, promised last year, into the case of John Q-lynan, re an, alleged wrongful survey of Section No, 4140, near Akaroa.” . > Mr Maseell said there was no record in' the office of such an inquiry having been made, and therefore he could not give [any information on the subject. Mr Montgomery said the matter had ; come before the late Government, and inquiry was made into it. The grievance consisted in Mr Glynan not having had his boundary line laid down. Mr Glynan had purchased second hand, and it was the opinion of the Government that the purchaser should have looked to the person from whom he bought the land to furnish him with a boundary line, not the Government. A written supply had not been sent to Mr Glynan, but.be had been informed verbally of the decision which the Government had come to in the matter.

After some further’ discussion, the motion was agreed to. SURVEY DEPARTMENT, HABBOXTBS, * RAILWAYS, AO. The following notices standing in the names of Mr B. Turnbull and Mr Jebson respectively were postponed That in the opinion of this Council the manner in which the Survey Department is conducted is most unsatisfactory, and requires the immediate attention.of the Government.” “That in the opinion of this Council no steps should be taken orhegociations entered into by the Government, for the disposal or alienation of harbours, railway works, and other property belonging to the province, without first consulting this Council and obtaining its consent to ths same.” EAEAIA GORGE. Mr W. WAXte moved— 1 That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to place on the Supplementary Estimates a sum of money sufficient to erect a bridge across the Bakaia at the Gorge.” The hou member pointed out the very great advantages that^would accrue from the, erection of a bridge across the Bakaia Gorge. The work was a very necessary one, and he hoped that at all events the Government would' place on the Estimates a sufficient sum for the erection of a bridge, over which cattle and sheep might be driven. ... *

Mr Jebson seconded the motion. ' "

The Hon J. T. Peacock: replied that the Government did hot see its way to accede to the motion. The Government, however, would at once instruct the Provincial Engineer to report whether a bridge such as had been indicated by the hon member , for the Bakaia, namely, for light traffip, could be erected for £4OOO, and if it could the Government would place the amount on the Supplementary Estimates. Mr White withdrew the motion under these circumstances. SHEEP OEDINANCE, 1875. Mr Wtnn WiLiiiAiis moved—“ That the Sheep Ordinance, 1876, be referred to a Select committee, to consist of the following members Messrs Gray, Buckley, Bluett, Teschmaker, W, 0. Walker, Westehra, and the mover, with power to call for persons and papers, and to report on Tuesday next.” Mr Dixon moved—" That .the committee be balloted for.” The amendment was agreed to. A ballot was then taken, and resulted in the appointment of the following committee:— Messrs Gray, Walker, Buckley, Bluett, Tesohmaker, Westenra, and the mover. GHNBBAL CONTINGENCIES, Mr Geat moved—" Thatthere be laid on the table a detailed account, from January 1,1874, to the present time, of the expenditure of such sums of money as have been voted without specific object, for miscellaneous, contingency, and incidental purposes, omitting the information already laid on the table under the head | of ‘ General Contingencies.’ ” The motion was agreed to. EDUCATION BILL. 1 This debate was resumed. ■ Mr B. Tuenbdxli said- he did not intend to delay the Council by making any lengthened re-; marks. He believed the.'time was not far' dis-1 tant when the General Government wouldstep in, and when there would be only one system o( education in operation, throughout 'the j colony. The only important changes which '• the present Bill proposed was the appointment of a Secretary of Education, and the increase of the fee to lOs per child up to fopr. He quite agreed with the 1 principle proposed by the Bill, that ihose who voted the money for educational purposes should have full control over its expenditure. He regretted that any hon member should have been found making the remarks which hid fallen from the hon member for Heathcoto respecting the hon the Provincial Secretary! The hon member (Mr Montgomery was beyond suspicion, and that hon member should not have made the suspicious allusions he did to the hon member (Mr Maskeli). He (Mr Turnbull) quite agreod with the proposal for the appointment of a,Secretary of Education. Then, with regard to the question of the increase of fees, he thought that the proposal of the Government could not be reasonably objected to. The people who derived the greatest benefits from education should pay for it, and he did not for a moment! suppose that by (he general public, an increase of the fee to 10s would be objected to, because it was still within the reach of every man in the country to educate bis family for the sum of £3 per annum. (Hear, hear.) He did not think that such prudence bad been exercised in the distribution of funds for educational purposes as should have been exercised. Large reserves had been made for educational purposes, and he considered that the funds derivable from them should be applied to the erection of school buildings of a permanent character. Upon the whole, ha was prepared to vote for the second reading of the Bill.

MrWALKEB said he did not believe the Board of Education was so much to be blamed, as the Ordinance which bad been passed by the House. The Ordinance was passed with the intention that the scheme should apply to every part of||the province, and be did not see how the Board could exercise that strict, control which was necessary in the expenditure of money in districts far removed from > their seat of action. He thought the Government had exercised a good discretion, in bringing down the provision respecting the contribution for the erection of school buildings.. It was asserted that this Hill was of a' retrograde character, but he did not think that such was the esse.

He did hot think that hon members who had

,a|rn|dy spoken in favour of the Board of Education, had said a word too much in their behalf. There was no doubt whatever, that the members of the Board of Education had; done a great deal of good, and that with them the wdrk was really a labour of love. He thought,.however, that the Government had acted wisely in proposing that the department should be/ brought more under the control of the, Government than bad hitherto been the l case, be. believed the change would be all for the best. The Bill also recognised the safe principle of increasing the liabilities of the people gradually. A great deal had been said about the poor man, but. he failed, to know what the term meant in this country. He certainly could not understand that any man in the province could not afford to pay, at the most £3 a year, for the education of bis family. (Hear, hear.) It bad * been suggested by the hon member for Christchurch that a loan should be raised for education purposes; They were doing what that hon member proposed, only in another manner. They had paid for their schools out of funds which belonged to posterity as much as to themselves. Until the day came when the land fund ceased to contribute towards

Education, the question of raising a loan might be left unconsidered, but the moment the land fund ceased to furnish the requisite amount, then it would be advisable, perhaps, to take the question of raising a loan into consideration. A great deal had been said about population versus property, but he #duld remind bon members that if the present Bill were carried, property, in less than a year from the present time, would be contributing one half towards the erection

and maintenance of schools. With regard to the subject of religious instruction, he

thought that it should not be made a question of strife every year at the election of school committees. (Hear, hear.) He thought that provision should be made, which would afford facilities for imparting religious instruction for those children whose parents desired that they should receive it. It might be said that there had not been a sufficient expression of opinion in the country to justify the House making this provision, but he would remind those who advanced this argument that the I members of the Council were UiejssprSitenta- j tives of the people, and thahMfejlsifeiSj justified in making the provision he advocated, even in the absence of any general expression of opinion on the part of the people. (Hear, hear.) The hon member read an extract from the opening address to the Grand Jury at the last session of the Supreme Court, and said that when the, proper time came he would be prepared to move an amendment of the nature which his remarks oh this part of the subject indicated. (Hear, hear.) , Mr Knight said that in the course of the

debate which had taken place on the motion for second reading, it had been stated that Lyttelton and Eaiapoi had contributed no* thing towards the erection of school buildings. This was not the case. Kaiapoi had contributed £4OO, but as this was found to be insufficient, the district would hare to make up the deficit. Lyttelton had given up a piece of land worth £ISOO. He could not agree with the Bill before the House on many points. He thought the Board of Education had done the work it was appointed to perform. It was appointed to initiate a new system of education, and he thought it had done its work successfully, and that the first Chairman of the Board was entitled to the greatest amount of credit and praise for the way in which he had brought the present system of education into operation. He thought, however, that things had changed, and that it was high time an alteration should be made. But be did not agree with the change that was proposed. He did not know whether the proposed secretary would be anything more than the present secretary.; (Hear, hear.) Well, if this were not the' case, what were they to have? Was there; to be really a permanent head of the department ? If he were not a political head, what would be the consequence P That the expenditure would be extravagant and unsatisfactory. This had been the experience inj other departments, and what was there to pre-1 vent the same result in the department of edunation? (Hear, hear.) His opinion was that > if there was any change to be made, the! department should be placed under the’ control of a political head, who would be! directly responsible to the House. (Hear, hear.) He '.regretted that the present Go-1 vemment saw any necessity for the continu-; ance of School committees. He (Mr Knight) I did not believe at all in the necessity of having I school committees. School committees had no ; real power, except the pleasure of holding the sums of money paid for the maintenance of schools and the poll .tax, until they disbursed them. But there were instances in which school committees took power into their own hands. One school committee obtained an .overdraft at the Bank to the extent of £1500,; and after some correspondence on the subject, the Board of Education had to pay the overdraft.

An hon member: Name, name. If r Knight laid he referred to the Timara School committee. Another committee proposed an amount as payment for the services of a secretary. The Board of Education would not sanction the proposal, and the Chairman of the committee said that in spite of the Board of the secretary would be paid for his services. An hon member: Name, name. Mr Knight said the threat had not been carried out yet, and he did not think he should give the name. Hon Members: Name, name. Mr Knight : I am not going to - name. (Laughter.) The hon member continued to say that the best men in the districts were not elected on the school committees, and it was well known that many who were elected op the committee could not sign their name. (Hear, hear.) His opinion was 1 that school committees should be done away with, 'and commissioners appointed for some “distriots ] or if commissioners were - not appointed, they must increase their inspecting power; They must have inspßctors whp' would send in- reports from time to tithed With regard to the raising of funds for the maintaining: Of school buildings,he thought it would be that property was basis Of {taxation. He quite agreed with ithe proposal of the {Government to raise the poll-tot from 6s to ICis. He did not think people could refuse to pay this. Let' the system stand on; its own- merits. Charge a price which was a reasonable one, and-let those use the Government schools who liked,' and let those who' had scruples on the subject send their children elsewhere if they could afford to do so. (Hear,, hear.) With regard to the amount of education to be given in Government schools, bis opinion was that the. State was bound to see that all children in the country received a ‘fair amount of education. As to procuring teachers fpr - the public schools, he thought that perhaps they might have gone to too high a standard in the examination of teachers, because he knewthat many teachers had to resign .their position because they felt that they were unable to go through the very high standard examination which they had to undergo.

The Hon' Geobge Buckley said he would detain the House for but a very, few minutes. In the course of the debate, the chief objection against, the Bill was manifested to that part o>f it which proposed the appointment of a secretary. Much had been said about the extravagance that had been exereised in the expenditure of money for educational purposes. And who, he would ask, was responsible for this T It appeared to him that the principal portion of the extravagance that had been exercised, related to the erection of school buildings. There was one striking example of this. In the Hast Christchurch district a building had been erected, and anyone who looked at it andasoertained the amount tw. was spent in its construction, must feel convinced that a more ornamental building and one capable of accommodating 60 per cent, more children, could have been erected for the same amount of money. (Hear, hear.) He thought that a great deal' of objection might be taken to the present mode of collecting the school fees. In fact, it was admitted by the Board of Education that a great amount of laxity prevailed in this matter. . He wouldalso point out that notwithstanding the large amount that had been spent ineducotionaT purposes, there were very many children in the province who were at present receiving no education at

all. Now this »u a matter that required immediate attention, and he would alio point out the necessity that exiited for making provision for. the education of Maori children in the province. As to the maintenance and erection of schools, he thought that while there wa« a mrplui of land revenue the money should be taken from that source; but if there was not a surplus of land revenue, then the question came—where are we to get the money from? He was of opinion that if permanent buildings were erected posterity should be made to bear its just proportion of the expense, and therefore it was only right that a loan should be raised for this object. He could not sit down without expressing regret that the hon member for Heathcote (Mr Montgomery) should have made such remarks with reference to his hon colleague (Mr Maskell). In conclusion he thought the proposals of the Government on the subject of Education would receive the favourable consideration of the majority of hon members. (Hear, hear). Mr Hastes said he thought that if the hon member who had just sat down accepted the office of Minister of Education at a fair salary the country would be very much benefited. (Hear, bear.) That hon member at present sat on those benches without portfolio, and he (Mr Harper) saw no reason why the hon member (Mr Buckley) should object to take a fair amount of salary and act as Minister of Education. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr Harper) was entirely opposed to the household tax, as he thought that a property tax for Education was the proper one to adopt. (Hear, hear.) He also hoped that before the present Bill went out of committee, proper provision would he made for the imparting of religious education in their public schools. (Hear, hear.) Mr Andbews said that he had always been opposed to a nominated Board of Education. It was no wonder that a nominated Board could not act in harmony with elective school committees. (Hear, hear.) He had every respect personally for the members who composed the Board of Education, but he objected to them as a nominated Board. It had already been said over and over again that there were .men on the school committees who Could not ■write their own names; but he must say that be was only surprised there was a single intelligent man upon them. And why ? Because the school committees under the present system had no power whatever, but were entirely under the Board of Education, which was a nominated body. He did not say that he J would support the Bill as a whole, but he I would vote for the second reading of the Bill, and also for its committal. Then hon members would be able to make suggestions as the various clauses came under consideration, He might say that he would oppose every proposal for the election of a body nominated by the Superintendent or anybody else. As to the question of religious instruction, he thought that school duties ought not to be interfered with. If ministers wished to impart religious instruction, let them go before school hours or after school hours, but he objected to the regular school hours being infringed on. He was in favour of the appointment of a Minister of Education, and he believed that things would be more satisfactory when they had a Minister for Education as well a Minister for Bailways. Mr Joint said he expected, when the Government brought down a measure for abolishing the Board of Education, they would be prepared to shew that the Board had greatly failed in carrying out the objects for which it was appointed. He expected to hear an indictment against the Board, but, contrary to his expectations, the hon member who moved for the second reading of the Bill, passed a very high eulogium on the Board. No member of the Government had told them that matters would be improved in the slightest degree, if the change proposed by the Government were carried into eff-ct. The House was merely told that large sums of money had been expended by the Board of Education in the establishment of schools, and hon members were therefore invited to say that a great deal of extravagance had been the result of the Board’s administration. There could not be a greater fallacy than to suppose that the Board of Education was to be replaced by a permanent head of the department. This was not the case. If the change proposed by the Government were carried out, the effect would be that the department would be placed directly under the control of a shifting Executive, They would find that the proposed Secretary for Education would have no more administrative power than the chief clerk of a.department. Nothing was clearer than that all the administrative powers were to be carried out by the Executive of the day. It was a mere mockery to say that the Secretary ; would have any administrative power whatever in the department of Education ; therefore, to call him the administrator of the department was a delusion. The hon member who introduced the Bill said that a political Minister of Education was very objectionable, because he would have to go out of office with other members of the Government, aUd that this would give rise to a great deal of confusion in the management of the deEartment. This was no reason, however, ecause if it were objectionable to have a political head in one department, it was equally objectionable to have a political head in another department. It was said by the members of the Government that the Board of Education was an irresponsible body, and that the House had no control over the expenditure of money by that department. Now, he submitted that the Board of Education was responsible, and that if the Provincial Auditor did his duty, the Board would not be permitted to spend a single pound beyond the amount voted to it. The Government had shown no good reason why the Board of Education should be abolished; but if any change were made, it should be in the direction of the appointment of a Minister for Education, rather, than the proposed mockery pf a secretary, who would possess no adminis tralive powers whatever. It was not fair to the Board of Education to say, that the expenditure incurred dunng the past two years was to be taken as an average, of what the expenditure on Education would|be annually, (Hear, hear.) It must be remembered that the Board had to initiate a new system, and that therefore a very large amount of expenditure had necessarily to be incurred in the establishment of schools under the new system. Besides, they must recollect that a very large increase of population had taken place, and that it was necessary to make a correspondingly increased amount of provision. (Hear, hear.) Therefore he did not think that it should be said of the Board that they had acted extravagantly in the expenditure of money. (Hear, hear) He thought that in the future the greatest amount of expenditure would be incurred in the maintenance of schools that were already established, and they must not think, therefore, that the expenditure would be so great in the future as it had been in the past. He would now pass on to another proposal of the Government, namely, the amount of contribution which districts should make towards school buildings. He objected entirely to the proposal of the Government to make Idle districts pay one-half instead of onesixth aa in the past. Itjwas known already that considerable difficulty was experienced in getting ace-sixth contributed by districts, and the hon mover of the Bill (Mr VJT. Williams) proposed in a previous session that the rate should be extended over a number of years. Now, if districts were unable to contribute one-sixth, how could they afford to pay onehalf. He protested strongly against this proposal of the Government, and he thought that other hon members would have protested as strongly against it as he had done, if they were fully alive to the inability of districts to contribute so largely to the establishment of schools. The result would be to retard the progress of education, and to prevent the establishment of schools in new districts. With regard to the increase of the poll tax, he was perfectly satisfied that there were a large, number of persons in the country who were not in a position to, pay the amount at present levied without distressing themselves to a considerable extent, and there were many, too, who could ill afford to pay the household rate of £1 to the. tax collector when he came round. He considered that the proposal of the Government to increase the school fees wag

extremely injudicious, and that the ref alt of 16 would be to make the system of education distaste! ul, and to retard the spread of education* In doing away with denominational education, they recognised the necessity of a national system of education, and he contended up to the present time that system had been most successful. (Hear, hear). He contended that they should keep the price of education at the lowest figure, and that if they increased it the effect would be to damage tbo system of education. (Hear, hear). Iho household rate was retained in tho new Bill as in the old Bill, and therefore he would say nothing on that part of the subject. Bab he must say that it was a householders’ tax, and that a man should not be called,upon to pay £1 for every house which he might occupy, use, or reside in. If he paid tho household rate once, he thought be should not be called upon to pay again. He trusted that the School committees would not be done away with. He regretted that the hon member for Waimate bad reverted to tha remarks that had fallen from hia late hon colleague (Mr Montgomery) on the previous night with regard to the hon. the Provincial Secretary, The remarks of tha hon member (Mr Montgomery) had been entirely misconstrued, and he could easily substantiate this statement. To do this, he would refer to what had been reported by the Reporter of the Lyttelton Times, and he was sure it was a verbatim report. (Hear, hear, from Mr Montgomery.) In that report the language used by the hon. member for Heathcote waa as follows “ I think it will be acknowledged that the gentleman who has got a large voice in the education system of the country should be one who is thoroughly at one with, thoroughly tied to, carrying out the present education system, I am quite sure that the present Provincial Secretaiy would do nothing but what he would conceive to be conscientiously just and right; but I cannot forget that he has been for years the steadfast opponent of the present system in this Council. Ido not speak of any hon members’ private opinions, or of opinions privately expressed. I infer what a man will do from the words ha utters, or which he has spoken politically, and I say that the hon gentleman. (Mr Maekell) has shown in this House that he is the irreconcilable opponent of the present system of education. I would be very sorry to say one word which would reflect on his personal honour, but I say that in order to carry out any system, the person who has got tha management of it should hare his heart in it, but that if he only brings to it a cold, formal action, that system will not result in tho success that we all hope to see the education system in this province assume.” (Hear, hear, from Mr Montgomery.) These words of the hon member for Heathcote solely dealt, with the views which the hon member (Mr Haskell) held on the subject of education, and with the quAtion whether a gentleman holding such views would be the most desirable person to administer the department of education. (Hear, hear, from Mr Montgomery.) He ( v> r Joynt) objected to this Bill, because ha thought that the principles contained in tha Bill were not salutary, and that they were not by any means advantageous to the system of education. He was sure that education would suffer if this Bill became law, and that the false economy which the Bill proposed would tend rather to turn the public to a very large extent against it, and that therefore the Bill would be of a retrograde character. He objected most strongly to the clause which altered the constitution of the governing body, because that body would not be satisfactorily replaced by the proposals of the Government. He therefore objected to the second reading of the Bill. MfJebson failed to see that tho effect of the Bill brought in by the Government would be to retard the progress of education in:thia province. On the contrary, he thought that thsre was nothing more likely to promote retrogression than the imputations that had been made by the hon member for Heathcote (Mr Montgomery) against a gentleman into whose hands the conduct of the affairs of the province had been entrusted. The hon member expressed a hope that, with some slight modifications, the Bill brought in by the Government would be passed by the House. He Would Support, With very slight the second reading of the Bill, and ho must congratulate the Government oh the courage they bad displayed in proposing to do away at once with the Board of Education. Dr Raynee said he would not detain the House many minutes, because a gnat deal had been already said on the subject. He wished to say, however, that he would support the motion for the second reading of the Bill, and he was sun that the measun under consideration was the result of very mature consideration. As a member of a school committee, he must say that he was glad to see that the Government proposed to abolish the Board of Education. For the last ten yean he had considered the Board of Education a simple nonentity, and a body that was of very little use. (“ Oh, oh.”) He agned with the proposal for the appointment of a Secretary or Minister for Education, but he objected to his occupying a seat on the Government benches, because he believed that the education department should not be connected with politics. He thought that the sooner they got rid of the Board of Education tho better. He would support the Bill, on tho understanding that he would be free to speak on the various proposals as they came seriatim before the House. (Hear, hear.) Mr Bluett said he would support the motion for the second reading of the Bill. He thought it had been clearly proved that a great deal of negligence had been displayed by the Board of Education, in allowing school committees to spend more money than waa necessary. He believed that the population of the province was about 70,000, and last year the sum of £83,000, or rather more, waa spent in Education. Now, to spend such a large sum of money in so small a community was preposterous. He woe not quite surp that it would not be a good thing lit abolish sohopl committees. He thought that the inspection of schools should not be left in the hands of one or two individuals; that girls should be instructed in household duties; that children generally should obtain a good, plain education in public schools; that some practical education should be imparted to boys beyond the three R’s; that an agricultural college should be established in the province—(hear, hear)—that no man would object to pay a shilling a week for having his whole family educated; that in committee he would propose the introduction of a clause fixing the maximum of teachers’ salaries, which would be dependent on quarterly or half-yearly examinations ; and that he believed the adoption of such a clause would tend to the production of a very efficient staff. (Hear, hear.) At this stage, on the motion of Sir Ceackoft Wilson, the House adjourned for a quarter of an hour, resuming at 11.26 p.m. Mr White (Timarn) spoke in favour of the second reading of the Bill, but reserved the right of objecting to certain provisions, and of suggesting amendments during tha progress of the Bill through committee. Mr Fishes opposed the motion, considering that the present Act should be allowed to work a little longer. He did not cons : derthat, under the present circumstances, it was advisable to interfere with the existing Act. Mr Jollie opposed the motion for second reading, on the ground that he believed the passing of suoh a measure would retard the progress of Education in this province. (Hear, hear )

Mr Higgins opposed the radical nature of the changes which were proposed by tha Government. He did not think that changes of this character should bo effected without sufficient notice being given of them. The Hon J. T. Pucooi, speaking in sup-' port of the motion for the second reading of the Bill, said that school committees had answered one purpose—that of being a cloak to hide the faults of the Board of Education.

Loud cries of “ Question.” The Spbaebb inquired if any other hon member wished to address the House.

There being no response, Mr Williams replied, and the question for the second reading of the Bill was put and carried on the voices. The Bill was read a second time.

The question of going into committee on the Bill was made an Order of the Day for Thursday.

Notices of motion having been- given, <ho House adjourned until next day, at 5 p.m