GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
Tpebiu*, Atrocit 29
Lt)JOV&**t> DKJtiTK 0* PAKtUA POMT Of CAM.
qvttmtott.
Mr. ff At'OHTOjr, who seconded the amendment on Mr. K. Graham'* resolution, rdalivc to the port of call for tho Panama Mail Service, reminded the Mouse of the position in which tho debate stood when it wu adjourned. Tho Fostmastbk-Okwubai, (Hon. Major Ktchardson) «aid he had not intended to speak so early in the debate, as his Hon. colleague at the heart of the Government (Mr. Wed) had already addressed tho Honse, and had adduced many ol tho argument# in elucidation of the subject which bo himself would have brought forward ; but after tho remarks of the lion- member on the opposite side of tho House, which showed some want of information, he thought it hi# duty to place before tHo House that which he possessed. The subject under consideration was the resolution and amendment, and he believed it would be strictly in accordance with the usual practice to confine hi* remarks to tho amendment only; sometimes, however, an amendment was of such a nature as to involve almost necessarily the consideration of the original question, as in this case: for the quMtion was that the nubjcct should be referred to a Select Committee; but in his opinion the Houso would bo in possession of sufficient information to justify it in coming to a conclusion without the appointment of any committee. When the member for Franklyn (Mr, Robert Graham) introduced his resolution, he (Major Hicluirdson) was unfortunately called away for a short time, but tho papers, and the Defence Minister had given him some information about what was said by hirn. When he read the resolution, he had doubts whether the member for Franklyn (Mr. It. Graham) was in earnest in introducing it, for it appeared to him to bear on the face of it the impress of a joke. They had heard of geographical centres and of commercial centres, but Auckland could not be considered as either tho geographical or commercial centre of New Zealand. _ They had been advised, in this question, to discard all the provincial prejudices and jealousies from their minds which were so apt to take possession of them. He had endeavoured to do so— to divest himself of any feeling he might have as a representative of Otago; but, even if he had not done so, it would not only be as one entrusted with the administration of the affairs of the colony, but also as such representative that he would protest most earnestly against any change taking place, and object both to the original resolution and to the amendment, to the effect that the matter should be submitted to a Select Committee. He desired to state, shortly, the legal position of the matter; it was this Art Act was passed in 1803, and another in 1864, relating to the Panama Service, and subsequently in this Session, an Amendment Act had been passed by the Legislature. In the contract entered into by the Government for the service between Panama and New Zealand, it was stipulated that the port of call should be Wellington, and it was quite impossible by any resolution of that House, or even of both Houses, to vary an Act of the General Assembly; it would have to be done by an Act, if done at all. He would go back and give a history of the progress of this matter. He found that, in 1859, when this subject was under the consideration of the Imperial Government, in connection with some very strenuous efforts which were being made at that time by New South Wales for the establishment of a communication between the Australian Colonies and Great Britain, via Panama, several tenders were made for the service, and there were some stipulations made by the Imperial Government in a Treasury minute, bearing date February, 1859; they were to the following effect:—
" In coining to this decision, however, it must , be clearly understood, that my Lords will not consider themselves bound to accept any of the ten- ; ders unless they are fully satisfied. " Ist. That the amount is reasonable, and such as they would be justified in incurring. "2nd. That the times and rates of speed are such as to harmonise perfectly with the Suez service, so as to make the two, alternate fortnightly with each other; and, " 3rd. That the Government of the Australian colonies will undertake one entire half of the cost of both the services, via Suez as well as via Panama, whatever they may be." When the present Government took up the question, they did so with this ultimate object in view, viz., that there should be a general united service by way of Suez and Panama. He hoped he should be able to convince the House that that could only be carried out by making Wellington the port of call. If that were not done, it would be utterly impossible to gain the assistance of Melbourne, for it was by distributing the mail from this centre (Wellington), that they hoped, not only to enlist Melbourne, but Queensland, and some of the other Australian colonies. He would refer to papers received on the matter, and he hoped the members from Auckland would acknowledge, that in looking over the records, he had endeavored to extract alljthat was fair on both sides. He had been accused by Auckland members of being prejudiced against Auckland interests, and having a partiality to southern interests; but he hoped those members would disabuse their minds of that prejudice, for it was not that he loved Auckland less, but that he loved New Zealand more. He found in one of the tenders, dated Ist July, 1869, the following, "This Company will establish coal depots atFaval, at Colon, at Panama, at Tahiti and at Sydney. The vessels will, however, take on board sufficient coals to prosecute the whole voyage on each side of the Isthmus of Panama. The vessels will call at a port in New Zealand, somowhere in the neighbourhood of the Bay of Islands." (Hear, hear.) (He hoped his hon. friends would admire his want of prejudice when he said that) " And from Sydney the Company will send forward by separate steamers the mails for other porta in Australia." About the same time there was another tender from another company,of which Mr. George Clark was the agent, dated about the same time, Ist July, 1859:— " The station in New Zealand will be at Cook's Strait, where are Wellington and Nelson, the commercial capitals of the two main islands." (A laugh.) He was quite sure difficulties would arise when he came to that part of the statement. (Mr. J. Williamson: \\ho is the writer ?) The writer was a person of established reputation, though, perhaps, not known to fame —Mr. George Clark, Secretary to the Australian Company (limited). He invited the serious attention of the House to the arguments used. " The commercial capital* of the two main Islands, the places of most importance in that colony. A call there appears the only means ot suiting the requirements of this case, as both Melbourne and Sydney have virtually settled the question by establishing their first stations for intercolonial purposes—the one at Nelson and the other at Wellington. It will further afford the only solution or the difficulty of reconciling the interest in this line of the two great Australian colonies by a nearly simultaneous delivery at Sydney and Melbourne. The object of the present Government was to enforce what had been done by a previous Government; they had decided that when tho mails vi 4 Panama arrived at Wellington, a swift steamer should go couth and another north, and at tho same time that two steamers should go to Sydney and Melbourne, so as to put those places on a direct equality; that, he W lieved, could only be done by having Wellington as a port of call. (Hear, hear.) Some reference had been made as to what was done by an hon. member net then in his pUce (Mr. Ward). It was said that ho had exceeaed his powers in getting Wellington made the, port of call. He (Major luobardson) would read the general instructions which he (Mr. Ward) received from Mr. Domett, iu 1862:—
" lf.Z. Colonial Secretary's Offico, " Auckland, sth Dec., 1809. Sir,-—I have the honour to request you to be good enough, in entering, on the part of th« Government of New Zealand, into any contract lor tlio Panama Steam Mail Service, not to tlx or recommend any particular port of call or departure ,n . Now Zealand, but to givo tho contractors permission to call at those ports in Now Zealand winch can, on tho outward and homeward voyages respectively bo moat speedily readied "from ■Panama, and vice versa, with tho oo.it to the colony.
" I havo, &0.,
" Alfred Domett.
" Hon. Crosbie Ward." When he (Mr. Ward) came in, as ho no doubt would, during the course of the dobato, he would prov o to the House that he did not take any part iu making Wellington the port of call, but that ne was actuated Bolely by the information which »,?' a 8 to obtain in the commercial capital of the world; it was then decidod that Wellington should bo the port of call. He would freely acknowledge thai Lord Claude Hamilton said, in a letter, dated October 16th, 1803, "that if Auckland was made the port of call, tho company would consent to the discontinuance of the present service botween Sydney and Auckland, provided that the existing line between Sydney, Otago, and intermediate ports was maintained at the present subsidy. 1 Uere was something stipulated for an additional charge, which Mr. Ward was justified m not agreeing to; Wellington,Jtherofore, became the port of call. The Government then took a further step m advance. A Bill came before tho 2, u' l »! 84, .°? 8ub ject,andhon.members would call to mind that a severe debate arose on
the consideration of the H would not then hav o piMw ,,' • t! '" li,. moot dccidsd that thurn " i" in wbtch th„ M ■ Government hml rri,,, lou^' 1 v. : stfmilation*. At Ui, ; u ; * r '- .•> debate, had thorn b,rnntiyir,t'' port Of Cftll, WM added then, malting Am-itiatt.l . - " ! the port of call. Tf „.y time, of floating ttininnt-nu entertained by (Japi#,,, '•■('■.. the company, ft, ha,l K., tl raid that a "V? Auckland w<ro mad* »!•,<• .„, rf ! v ' t Hicharel*on; Im'i c,, THi ,],. ri ,,[' |f '' J,i ' ii ' Captsin Halt on tl„. ''Thew rumouri rtrn ,-;rc!i:,, J : ( . < jV I 'V '' : is there any authority j„' r me some information on tj„. Vino Hall had r.'ofif h:tn :j„, reply, which he wouM ■ "Sir, — I hav,lotferof jrr*U:r/!ny'i .ir„f . that I haw- no author.'v rejwe«tnt to f.ak« arij H- ; .i »,,xv'' '■■'i port of call for Ui.at. numr'ri -.j, of aipnwment for th»> I'-iram* ,•' ■ see how two port*of c,|| w ,, Uil . ; to the company than on<-. % "I believe I hat., und.v the central position of •< most eligible place for th« pon '" ... " I hav, " General M.um .... "The Hon. Major Riehar-Un, ' " l'o«tniauer.()<>np f; ,;," That would, appar-n'lv, . rr question. ife (Major k.r-Wi* r ,' , ;i " v, whether there was anv aurb-ritT '< • 1 •"' Smiting about that Captain V m ; h , "* somebody else had report,-,! h;m t,.. ' a large saving, such as Bvmi, *~'• , by earning out the twins ~'f 'in "< Ilall replied that he had not 'zgaidor written that such asavmj v 'i '' and ho naturalij y the Having could "be c!f«,' v V 5T if effected, would have b.-n pany, and not with the < " laugh.) Tlese arguments w- r .-- t.-: 7 i contradicting such iH- i-' member for Frankljn ha-1 ai-, i r , a fact which he (Major Richa- \,. IU , , j.' c ; of, nor did he know any one wb m,. nor did be expect to find anv ,!i- * ■ . aware of it (A laugh), v!*', :\ IA - '.j* Auckland as the port ot' call th.-7 <. . ■ daya. He (Major Richard vm/ hi : . elaborate calculations on this j»»nr t -. . . not bear out that statement, jj- *■ t . t that the member for Franklyn ii.-. i V of bis most important A .... • " ~ had found it (A laugh), and ; v Panama to Mongonui Auckland Wellington ... So there would appear to h.■ a =a- r ? , 7,. miles between the tw pi.!'-.-:, II- w.--0 source, and there he found tka' -t ~ - preciable difference between the . : X Auckland and Panama and n; ma. "When he found two di.«m-;r. u-.. .. .7-. ing the same thing, he tlou»h». h• i- /j saying that it was not true tiat t*., : saved. He would now read ii; table:— Sydney to Mongonui . Manukau Auckland Wellington ... There Auckland was agiin at i : with respect to Sydney. Supp-vsin.' 'z-j yc-ri Melbourne to join them (and he %• ■; ~_ j House that this was a most imp r- i-': the scheme would only in that i-a.-e z:'.-a success), the distance between Aack'..ci v. M boume was greater than tiat bet .tee: and Melbourne. Hi Melbourne to Mongonui *Manukau... Auckland . . Wellington Doubtful of the accuracy of his jtaremem;. or t least resolved that there should be n-> raistake. Ie (Mr. Richardson) referred t., a.i :h- r competent authority, and this w±s ih: the reference: — H| Distance Panama and i-.:. and Auckland, no appreciable d.'s :,c.- - tice. Distance Panama and ?. at or: —= more. Distance Sydney and Auckland ik'i: -'- s Manukau 1-J Weliing:oa .. • There they had Wellington a?i:n a: *■- tage; but some persons said. "It is Xve are talking about, but the M.ir.u,s; 1 -• ■' a project ot a railway to join -• ■* Manukau." They had no detail hw was to be carried out. yet by that mean-- r *! told that a considerable saving win.! He had entered into an iuvestigaiiv!* whether that would be the case. ar.<i" ' the mail steamer had been dt-CAtne-i last three months for two days each ' diffictilty in passing the Manuk.tu Ba: - 1 r a difficulty which would bo ~ great object was the regularity ot ; J His hon. friend (Mr. R. Graham* ; difficulties lrom distress ot weather .!-■ quakes in Cook's Stwits. c 1 ,v 1 addicted, as he said, to earthquake?Richardson) would not take an u::;> ~ vantage. It was rumoured in ate !-- when a south-east wind blew, thethe east end of the town were b;other end, and when a north-cast l> ' were carried back again; no hariu. r.^ done unless some one happened to e - He had the pleasure some time with an hon. iriend in Auckland. !■ ; suddenly terrified by a whin«uii: , i-■-■• the place; part of a building. 1 the siaeof the House, was carrot ; a» child in the road was also knociui. .. .. his leg broken, whom ho ha a i- 1 -'; a ,v.i rather the pain, of carrying tu ' \v e lived. He had been some tlWl> !1 . but had never seen any thin? - <0 ~ With regard to earthquakes, he about any periodical return ot - - did know, that Auckland was a \ and that the volcanic tires *[ rt ' emit again. (A laugh.) "v Vi ./ j authority, that some day (he hetva - I there might be a tew more ot 11 minent in the beautiful tcatur\'» 0i • . ; , : c the present time. The next po:cr <■* 4 t; ! on relatsd to the coals. Ihe Ul<>ti: ..rv'v (Mr. R. Graham) made, he remarks about the great .<^~"-j J;-' k \ , r , ; i. the way of coals, by calhn* 1 s was not quite sure whether u « „,: r.~ 0),000. (Mr. Urabam: tA'A; at some trouble to as^rtam and he would read the result ot Fixe-! iU . : . . .. Bay of Islands ... Pakawau, in Nelson • Buller River do m,' M' l ' . Grey River do ■•• , Ni , w^H| Coals consumed between I'anaius a« g£y-—. Twenty-seven days, «t for<. v ' 1 tons a day—... •• ■ „ ()l . r HI v.y,Coals consumed betwct'U Sydney— Six days, at forty tons " day= ... - 31,680 tons in all could be the hulk at Wellington at .»i » • ~ a From Australia coals could '' ' m • ■, cheap rate, and the q«mn $ H , ; Zealand would bo vt«ry»m-» was most fallacious to «.j » „, «> '■ „ t , bo a saving in the wa> 01 . ,| u . >•■; ;I ,c disparage the coal l, ' , 1 10 ; < \ ( , n Au'' kt;J , n !!„ 1 r ni' ,ri ' looked forward to the dii> ul r el»- r ,ii: got rid of its native f f.-rf mm on itself, would be » ' , )tt | he '■'''"'.V. w'H but while acknowledging . , ...lenyinjustice to the re«»» , " dl,r " ~in ,»t?». =-1' 1 , 1 ;, notice an analysis ot the 1 • (i)i |. iu i ,m lt ln colony, for some sire** s>' , tU . ( , [u . He found tlmt coals tro«« J •„,. ,v»; name of which he cou' l .. o nt:ii' l,H! :l . not well versed in -U" orl ,| 1( . siderable quantity ot car • „| ]!lV J was an essential ingn-.li. Nt 1 _ r|( , h Brodie: Hear, hear; «njl • ,1 Islands coal conti w f n J, 1 J'mibstsi": 1 ' : | cr|Ja roal 50 Mr cent, ot that ■ m 1 the Buller and Gn-v ri th-'" ~, j ■ cent, of it respecUye >. • lit< „ >•;■ neighbourly! 0 V. lt () t'i' l ' 1 et' '""-,1 mperior quality to lV W b:^ rhere was Rl ! otlu T ' .iin"" I '', eiii^" ;oal contained ft !i ' ~u | |t . r cen' 1 per cent; whereas tli
i"*-— ~ Supposing thoy were to disoard 1.85 f|fj:Consideration the other advantages posfro® tn s Wellington as a port of call—if the eessfd ,v teain er went b J tho north and returned fl"" 1 " 3 »th the distances, to say the very least, fcv th f r ~bont the same. (An hon. morabor: voulil do - iioi) frien( j waß unfortunately absent jf°.) rt( iihiced his evidenco, or ho would havo who" lu ' . (lie most , Tociforoua in asserting its K oD C posing tlio mail bad arrived in tho iful l'' ,ia reiiuiro four days to roach Welling»<>rtbV w«uld be lost to Ottvgo, Canterbury, (on. ,vhu ,1 ind Nelson. If Wellington was 3l* r U ,(1 "]"f 'rt 0 f cull, the English news could immediately to the Middle Island, ' of the submarine cable hud m Cook by » ieil,l! T t woU ia also be more convenient for traStw |15 ' Tlul Postmaster-General concluded by rel!,,rS ' (list he thought he had established this savins .| )(1 ~o rt 0 f call should be in tho centre kei-tim tho letters could be distri. 01 th f IS ,'t ottlv north and south, but also to tho 1,111 "ionics." He WftS » therefore, justified in ct l, !' r r, j ,: t would be highly unjust to chango Alport of call. (Applause.) . t'evsoiiOS said; Although he himself was k. rt>nvinood bv the arguments of the PostGeneral, he would advtse the Government ® 85,rr .'»> (h> nroposnl for a Select Committee, decide those who were doubtfal on tho ,t.d ifthe question was not settled now, j U bjiV . - i, n , u ,,|,( forward every session. He I '' WOl i ti,,,! Mr. Crosbio Ward had suggested I bl '\v .Hiii 'to" should be the port of call, (Xo, I that « * >fljj aosirable that any doubt on tho nol ;.wilieuld be cleared up 1 a Mr GiKPHttx said he thought tho appointjnpnt of a select committee would dispel any doubt "xlr' r'IMKAKTX said he thought that the ap- . »' nf n select committee would be of no I*' n "T hvver the members might bo, they uf, \iho nrviudiced one way or tho other. *°\i ] liis Win-' vmsos said he would vote for J amKvintmont of a select committee, as an • „,*V would then be made mto the subject, ID >? 1,4.1 never ve( been made. Although ho Sit iconlrnct could not-be profitably car- • ~?t vet if Auckland and Otago wero made fStV of arrival and departure, the present LVrs to Svdnev from those places would not £ wqiiiml in tbat Wft ? 4 SaVin & WOuld ef ;V' H u,v T KLL said he rose to vote against the J£- Committee, as he had no faith in Select Knitted generally. A great amount of oviV ou l,i have tobe called for on the committees f: h , for. and perhaps before its labours were the Parliament would be dissolved. S that, the arguments of the Postmaster. ?;'XI wre sufficient to cnvince any one who Wanv doubts on the matter, for he collected in- ?* mst ion from every quarter, and was the best Kn to give any information on j the subject. Conclusion. the hon. member said he trusted tk contract would be carried out m its presen
d wm equal to that of Auckland and Otago together. 5 i- The intorests of the population, in point of nume bers, was equal on both sides of the question. J Auckland was a bad place as a mart; it led from » nowhere to nowhere. A very considerable part of : their oxports was tho reexportation of goods ret ceived from other ports. It might bo mado a j centre of trade by extraordinary circumstances, its s it had boon maae by tho war. It was not, in 3 reality, a great commercial centre; but. when its • »»«emal resources wore fully developed, ho had no , doubt it would be a great commercial centra. In > point, of trade, Southland. Picton, anil Canterbury I were m a far more healthy state than ever Auek- , land had been under tho present rot lon system. : xr confident that (lie commercial centre of ■ New Zealand would, in a few years, bo somewhere ' ' u Cook Straits, and not formed of a population i such ns had formed Dunedin, which was liable til > bo called away at a moment's notice. Although • ho admitted that the commercial position ol i Dimedin was better than t hat of Auckland, yel ho maintained that twelve months would not pus? • over before that great commercial bubble would bt knocked on the head. As to the question o; distance, it could easily bo proved on a globe thai the arguments which lwd been advanced on thi; subject were absurd. The captain of the Great Eastern had told him that if they wished to makt a quiik passage they must never seek for winds They must make a direot passage and never seek for winds. So that it was a follv to run south t< seek for westerly winds. The main reasot why they should not givo this committee wai that the question had been sulliciently disoussed It had neon settled last session and hat been settled this session, and it was againsl tho dignity of tho Houso to rako up this subjrc •gain. On the quostion being put that the matter b< referrred to a Select Committee, the Houso divided Ayes, 18. Noes, 24. The Amendment wai therefore lost. Ayes, 18.-~Buck!and, Butler, Burns, Colonso Creighton, G. Graham, It. Graham, Honderson Monroe, O'Neill, O'ltorke, Patterson, Reynolds Stafford, Vogel, J. Williamson, John Williamson Macandrcw (teller). Noes, 24.—Atkinson, Bunny, Brandon, Cox Curtis, FitzGerald, Gledhill, Harrison, Jollie Mantel!, Miles, Orrnond, Pharazyn, Renal! | Sewell, W. W. Taylor, Walker, Ward, Wayne Weld, Wells, Wilkin, Wilson, Richardsoi (teller). Pairs. — For: Russell, Brodie, Haltain Against: Fitzherbert, Featherstone, Domett. The Houso then adjourned.
said the contract entered into by Mr Cro<bie Ward was notoriously in excess of his of he believed would be generally admitted. \V. ]lin T t a was not stipulated decidedly to be the ' „ 0 f M ll bv the company; but there was no Lbt influences in certain quarters to come ""tualk to that conclusion. Commercial men *ou'd pnucipnllv be benefitted by the Panama Service. and thev'would,moreover,have principally io rav for the advantage. The port of call should therefore be where the commercial men were mos numerous!V located. The hon. member then compared the commercial returns of the port ot WelWtonwith the ports of Otago and Canterbury. The assertions of the Postmaster-General and ether hon. members were not sufficient to convince every one. and for that reason the Select Committee should be appointed. . Mr. Watxe was in favour of adhering to the present arrangements, and he should therefore vote against the appointment of the Select Com--12 Mr! Vogel intimated his intention of supportluff the resolution for making Auckland and OtVo the termini in New Zealand. He was in favour of the Panama line, and sooner than see that abandoned, he would rather see Wellington the onlv terminus in the colony. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that ultimately the colon/ of Victoria would come in and join the grand design of postal communication round the earth. He supported the resolution because he thought that, by adopting it, thev would very much expedite the passage of the mail steamers. He affirmed that, in making Auckland and Otago the ports of arrival and departure, they would make the passage much safer and pleasanter by avoiding the dangerous passage of Cook's Straits. He contended that Wellington had not the trade possessed by Auckland and Dunedin, and that by making Wellington the terminus they would be depriving the company of those commercial advantages which thev Tvould otherwise have. He believed that if the committee was refused this session, another Parliament would see no reason to refuse a committee on such an important subject. He could se no reason why the Government should refuse the committee, except for political and party reasons. lir. Cbosbie TTabd said it was not true that he had departed from his instructions and forced the contractors to adopt Wellington as the port of call. The on the subject showed, on their part, an indifference as to which should be chosen, at least to the extent 05 leaving the point in his hands; and he had dealt with it—not finally, for power was left to the Government to liter the port if they chose, —simply as a postal question. Wellington was far superior to any other port for the purpose of distributing and collecting mails quickly. From Auckland and Dunedin. only two steamers at mo t could set out at once on the arrival of the trunk boat to carry on tie mails to other ports. From the extreme and South, only two provinces at most, besides the port of call, could receive their mails after one day's delay; but, from Wellington Taranaki, Hawkes Bay, Marlborough, Nelson, Md Canterbury could do so. The advantage was ui the proportion of 6 to 3, or double. The total time occupied in delivery from Auckland and collection at Dunedin would be 41 days, but to and Wellington only 24 days, showing a saving of 17 days. This was adding the time of all ports together. And Auckland and Dunedin, which chimed some advantage, would not get any by 'his proposal, for if they saved in one way, they *ould lose in another. Four days would be lost to each between receiving and answering their tetters whether Wellington was the port of call or not \ I' £0 > the advantages gained by the other provinces settled the question even to those who reckon the claims of the great commercial '"'{it highly. However, the contract was n °J '^ e price to be paid for it was fixed, aaa there was no proposal on the part of e contractors to do it cheaper from any &er port. On the contrary, there was a *™ten declaration from Captain Vino Hall, read i f . tmast er General, to the effect that they j .. * 1S ' J .to change, and would make no rec ion in price if the change was made. To alter ■'1\ n *' ace this declaration would be it/' ip •" l )0Sta l service of the colony would be " efficiently conducted; and if there should Sav ' a on it practically, that would be the clr tr v * contra ctors. He contended that, to l ,ort .°f ca U under such circumstances, in-nt . ex%ss ' ve 'y absurd. As to the amendrn;. ' ri r" rrriri S the question to a Select Comti. 'j ie the House to remember what duty ' )e * mail it would be the Bavin t , l Com P an y' B manager to write home, I" l Port of Call question has . re ' L ' tf ed to a Select Committee, and ,l. ln su «pense." What would be the effect on company, on the eve of completing its Ci]l<.,i b . tine!US ' the y found that the port to be that t i Was J JOt y <; t fixed ? Would they not consider Zealand was playing a fast and loose S ~r U V them? He implored the House to tiiGcH fer j the company had kept faith with r , ewar< * in turn fry a strict 1)9,, „ r !' x ' to fisting arrangements. The comJtaLar thanks of House for their £ood r \i" P at ient reliance on the ultimate tr co ' on y* B P°kc the more if thev ( ol 'i i 8 because the company might, 11 ' a C i ' iav ? treated him with great 90 ' biif ii , rs their place would have done hirri the on the contrary, extended to ev(. n consideration and forbearance, fte Kr" n wure Bu ffering loas. He entreated lotion U3(i WOt to ' oavc the port of call fcrram/Y.™ un »ettling the company's i[ r p at the last moment. Comrait| 0, ' K ""J so he would vote for tho Select Be did ' lj,:caus c he saw no other alternative. th't tha.t the Postmaster-General had could retract had been taken up, and that ti"-re wnni i \ e mter fe r ed with. Had he done so, laid bef'(iv„\i i' e ' 3cen no debate. The figures quite a diir 9ta ' Committee in 18G2 were of *ard m , w character to those brought fori},fi Postm,,,, | II L, tho3e data given this evening by * !c ommitte c 5 n ere correcfc > why refuse Mr. fer 8 B P°ke in favour of the committee. %' Iconic f?'' v r outreate d the House not to furnish giving ,/• 'k'' au 'l with tin argument against at teriTpt to i" ®'" nt ry f fee institutions, such as any tf >in|y""-'"ere with this contract would cerp rued into. t ' 0n v,hiJT,: ;RS0 * thought they were in that posiP r ecauti 01 , u ed tllat should take every Blent. matter. He voted for the amend(Hon. Mr. FitzGerald) (He " !' n " urt her to adduce on the subtin. , ? n a t considerable length to e( ''" [w <l < iai i h° n - member for al 'lio' e num ber of shipwrecks of P' acca 5 also, as to the o Population" 1 c , a 9 a commercial centre.) the settlement of Cooks Straits
Thubsday, Attgpsi 31, 1865. BGPOBTS OP ENGINEERING 3PEVEYOBB. Mr. Cbosbie Waed moved, "That there be laid on the table copics of the last reports of the inspectors and engineer surveyors under the Steam Navigation Act, upon the steamers New Zealand, Wakool, and Favourite, and of the last certificate, if any, granted to each; also, copies of any general instructions issued by the Marine Board for the guidance of inspectors and surveyors under the said Act in the performance of their duties." He said he wished to raise the whole question of steam navigation regulations. He mentioned the great number of wrecks which had taken placc on the coast, and wished to find out if that was owing to the non-carrying out of the Act, or if the Act was defective in itself. He was mamly responsible for the faults of the Act, as he was principally connected with its being brought in. The steamers mentioned in the ! motion were the New Zealand, which, after arriving here from America went ashore on Hokitika, and suddenly disappeared. He wished to find out if there was any survey held on her at all, or whether the survey, if any, had been properly carried out, or whether the steamer was destroyed through unavoidable causes. The Wakool was a small steamer, which was allowed to go on to the West Coast without being at all surveyed. This steamer was allowed to ply between the steamers in the offing and the shore, and went down under more aggravated circumstances than the last. He wished to know if the clause of the Act had been complied with in this case. The third case, that of the Favourite, was one of a small steamer plying from Wanganui along the coast, but which had not been surveyed in consequence of its not plying to a large port. The gentlemen who were on the survey were perfectly competent men, but they had not had that organisation which would enable them fairly to carry out their duties. He wished to know whether the proper steps had been taken by the Government to insure the proper organisation of these measures, and to carry them out on an equal scalo in all ports in New Zealand. He pointed out a few of the mistakes in the Act. There was no authority given in the Act to determine the number of passengers to be carried by steamers; there was one regulation in Sydnev, and another regulation in Melbourne. The Melbourne regulations of 1862 had been adopted, which had the effect of overcrowding the steamers. They also adopted the certificates of the New South Wales Board. The Act compelled them to adopt these certificates, which were very defective* They were responsible for the lives of those travelling on the coast, and they could not cast off this responsibility by saying that they were compelled to adopt the certificates of another colony. It should be left competent for the Governor, in cases where it was found that proper certificates were granted, to adopt these certificates, but it should not be compulsory. It was also allowed that steamers should go to sea without a survey, if they carried no passengers. This was a glaring fault of the Act. There were also provisions as to overloading with cargo. The inspector (by the Act) was allowed to permit a vessel to go to sea with cargo on deck. This should not be allowed. The inspector wished to obey the law, no doubt; but in some cases it becomes very difficult for him to disoblige his friends by not allowing them to carry articles on the deck. There was no actual power in the Act to compel the landing of these articles or to place them between decks. The law enforced a very small penalty in case of accidents not being reported. A case occurred a few days ago between Napier and Auckland, where the accident was not reported. The penalty was only £5, and the loss of vessels could not be prevented by such paltry fines. There was a period laid down in the Act, in which any vessel built before that time was allowed to proceed to sea without compartments. This should not be allowed. These vessels were neither more nor less than floating coffins. The steamers might be allowed to ply if they were altered so as to comply with the existing regulations. Steamers should not be allowed to proceed to sea with more than a certain number of passengers. He hoped the Government would give their attention to this matter this session. There had been suspicions bruited abroad and printed, to the effect that, by means of a private douceur, the owners of the New Zealand had got that vessel passed when she ought not to have been passed. He believed this rumour to be wholly untrue, but grounds for such suspicions should be removed. _ Mr. Macajtdbew seconded the motion, but suggested the advisability of referring it to a Select Committee. Mr. Stafford supported the motion ot tne hon. member, and thanked him for having brought the matter before the House. He had had particular opportunities of observing the capabilites of sea-going steamers from his residence at the mouth of the Nelson harbour. Ifae hon. member ought, however, to have gone luri ther with his motion. There was no survey allowed on sailing vessels under 40 tons. On one occasion, a vessel came back twice to Nelson for want ot provisions and water, It appeared to him fcnat there ought to be a power in the Act to examine masters of both steamers and sailing vessels, as well as their vessels, which would tend to raise the Qualifications of masters of passenger vessels. He hoped the suggestion of the hon. member for Bruce would be adopted. It was imperative, tor the safety of sea-going passengers, that precautions should be taken to prevent vessels from cartying too many passengers, and that the vessels should be sea-worthy. q omP m The Attobney-Geneeai, (Hon. Mr. Sewell) said it was very probable that the Act was very defective. It would have been better, however if the remarks of the hon. member for Lyttelton had been embodied in a series of resolutions tor the consideration of the Government. The Government was ontitled by the Act toappointtho | Commissioners, but it was the Marine Board which had power to make laws to carry out the Act The Government were not responsible tor tho shortcomings of that Board. An Act, however had been just passed to take the power out of the hands of the Marine Board, and to throw it on the Government. Up to thistime, to Government bad no responsibility in the matter. It was to supply this defect that tho Marine Board Act had been brought in. The Government would be j.i to , r j ve CT ery assistance to the formation of a S" Xm"*4 "hid. m " cr '*" y the Government in the matter. Maior The x'ostmasteb-Geseeal (Hon. j BS STSE SSSSSiSSA tfrf OU Mr B Gmmim. said that this was ft matter which showed that there were great --^£e2SSS£ accident; all he saw was, of screwing up about half-an-hour, for p P wag a something. All hon. member being few pigeons belonging to the non. m
washed overboard. The engine was not broken. Tho Native Minister (Hon. Mr. Fit* Gerald) said that tho engines in this vessel were the boat that could bo supplied. Mr. Glkdhilij said, if tho hon. member saw nothing of tlio aeeidont to tho engine, ho must ltftvo been in a rovorio or asleep. Mr. Cuosuik Ward thought that this was a matter which Hie Government ought to tnko on themselves, Ho had no objection to a select commit lee, but tho Government could inoro easily get all tho information which wan required. If tho hon. the Postmaster-General thought it wrong that ho did not come to the Government before bringing a matter to tho House, ho would merely state, that the Government were so busy that he thought his best plan was to lay tho whole mutter boforo tho House. On the question being put, tho motion was passed.
RESOLUTION FROM THE COMMITTEE OP WATS AND MKANB.
Tlio following resolution was roportcd from the Committee of Ways and Means: —" That it is desirable to revise the present Tariff; and that tho Hon. the Commissioner of Customs be authorised to tako such measures as may bo necessary for tho collection of any new duties, ponding 'tho discussion of the resolution."
On tho question being put that the resolution bo road a second time—
Mr. O'Nkill depreeatod that portion of tho Colonial Treasurer s speech which referred to Auckland as being a millstone round the neck of tho colony. Tho Colonial Treasurer knew very well that when ho stated that, he was stating what he know was untrue. The Speaker called tho hon. mcmbor to order. Mr. O'Neill would most emphatically deny the statements made by tho Colonial Treasurer, and contended that the war was a colonial and not an Auckland question. The hon. member said that the Coloniul Treasurer had endeavoured in his statement to throw dust in the oyes of tho House.
Mr. Stafford dissented from the latter remarks of the hon. member, and complimented tho Treasurer upon the lucidity of liis address. Ho also congratulated the hon. Treasurer on tho change of opinion which had resulted in the expression of his intention to repeal the Surplus Revenue Act. He (Mr. Stafford) would, however state, that instead of the Treasurer using the words " the case of Auckland," he should havo used tho words " tho policy of 1863," and, he said that, as that policy was distinctly the policy of the colony, it was with great regret ihat he heard that charged upon the province of Auckland.
Tho Coi.oniax, Tkeastjeer said that he would
refrain from discussing the " Surplus Act of 1858," and he thought that the lion, gentleman who brought in that Surplus lievenue Act should not now complain that a bond under that Act was claimed to be carried out; and, although ho (the Colonial Treasurer) had been compelled from his position to carry out that bond, yet, when the question arose as to whether a law under which that bond was made, should be continued, it was hardly fair to accuse him of a change of opinion, because, although opposed to the law, he had yet endeavoured to enforce the bond. With regard to his observations respecting the province of Auckland he denied most emphatically any desire to ca»fc a political slur upon that province; what he meant was, that the public expenditure of Auckland had hung like a millstone round the financial neck of the colony. At the same time, he would admit that there was a want of preciseness about his expressions, and for which he desired to apologise. He would state that the people of the province of Auckland were not chargeable for the policy of 1863, but they were chargeable with a desire to jkeep a separate purse, when the colony might fairly ask, are you in a position to separate and pay your fair share of the past expenditure of the colony ? Colonel Hatjitaiit said that throughout the whole of the Colonial Treasurer's statements there was an inimical feeling evinced towards the province of Auckland, and he (Colonel Haultain) would protest against such remarks, as being very damaging, not only to the province of Auckland, but also to the whole colony, besides being calculated to impede legislation. The Native Minister (Hon. Mr. FitzGerald) said that one or two hon. members who had addressed the House had alluded to some remarks which fell from him the other evening, and he hoped that he should not be prevented by any strict rule of the House from making one or two observations as to what he really said.
The Speakeb said that it was not competent for ;he hon. member to refer to a former debate.
The Native Misistbb (Hon. Mr. FitzGerald) said that he was going to claim for a moment the permission of the House to make one or two remarks of personal explanation. ("Goon, goon.") It had been supposed that, in the remarks he made the other night, he had been indulging in a sneer against Auckland. He wished distinctly to state that he had never indulged in a sneer against Auckland more than against any other part of the colony. Mr. Vogel rose to order. If the hon. member was going to refer to that debate, he (Mr. Vogel) should feel it to be his duty to reply. The Speakeb—The hon. member has permission of the House to make a personal explanation.
The Native Ministee (Hon. Mr. FitzGerald) said that he had claimed the indulgence of the House to make a personal explanation, but as the hon. member objected to that, he (Mr. FitzGerald) would not proceed. The Peemieb (Hon. Mr. Weld) thought it was to be regretted that when a member of the Ministry felt himself called upon to make a personal explanation, that he should be precluded from doing so by an hon. member rising to order. It was, however, quite a matter, of taste, and he (Mr. Weld) having congratulated the hon. gentleman on the good taste he had shown, would there leave the matter.
Mr. Vogel—As the hon. gentleman had mentioned me by name, I said that I should feel it my duty to answer him. The Pbemieb (Hon. Mr. Weld) —No doubt the hon. gentleman was justified by the rules of the House in the action he had taken, but as the hon. gentleman had thought that act to be consistent with good taste, he (Mr. Weld) would say no more upon the subject. With regard to the change of opinion, of which his hon. friend the Colonial Treasurer had been reminded, he might stato that ho hardly thought that his hon. friend could be charged with inconsistency, inasmuch a3 he had clearly stated that, although he felt bound to carry out a claim made under the Surplus Revenue Act, yet that he was opposed to the law which gave the right to make that claim; and, as to the position of the provinces, he (Mr. Weld) would state that he believed the provinces would, at the end of this session, be in a different and much better, position than they had been for some time past. As to the reference made to the province of Auckland, he (Mr. Weld) contended that the policy of Government was not antagonistic to the interests of that province. He would ask, when the present Ministry took office, hew many acres of land had been added to that province, in the Waikato district, and he then would point to the large additions of land which that province now possessed. He did not blame the people of Auckland, for he believed that they had been misled by the press and the statements of interested persons. Why, only the other day it was stated in an article in an Auckland paper that, in reply to a question put by an hon. member, he (Mr. Weld) said that the Ministry could do nothing to apprehend and punish the murderers •f the Eev. Mr. Volkfler, neither could they confiscate the lands. And this was said when the Government had actually organised an expedition to the East Coast to punish theso murderers, and had a Bill before the House to confiscate their lands It was by such statements as these that the people of Auckland were misled; but he believed that the time would come when those very people would say of the present Ministry "These are the men to whom we are indebted for our prosperity, for they have not only added to the riches of our province but they have taught US self-reliance. He believed that tho time would come when his hon. friend the Superintendent of Auckland, when he saw the rich country which had been added to Auckland, prosperous and happy, and its mag- J nificent harbours teeming with vessels to bear away the produce of the province, would say that the policy of the Ministry towards Auckland was a grand epoch in the history of the colony. He might inform hon. members that if the Ministry could not be put down bv sneers and newspaper articles, still less were they likely to be put down by statements not founded on fact. As to the financial statement it was a great credit to his hon. friend tho Colonial Treasurer. It was an epoch in tho history of New Zoaland; and in time to como they would Bay " Do you remember Fitzherbert's financial statement in 1885 P" It was a model of financial research, and would remain on record as a model of parliamentary eloquence and lucid explanation, and he (Mr. \teld) thought it was a great compliment to his honourable friend that throughout the whole of that lengthened address, the only matter of complaint that could be found was, that in the heat of debate, his hon. friend had made use of two or three words which, perhaps, in his calmer moments, he would not have used, and his hon. friend had fully explained that he never meant to reflect on the people of Auckland, but to state that the expenditure of that province had been like a millstone round tho " financial neck" of the colony; and he (Mr. Weld) would contend that nothing had been said calculated to iniuro the credit or to impeach tho solvency of , he province of Auckland. He would like tho me sabers for Auckland to rise and say that they obiected to the Hebellion Act as antagonistic to the interests of Auckland; because, if they con.
sidered it favourable rather than otherwise to Auckland, thoy had no right to say that it was forced on them by a Southern majority. Ho had noror thoroughly concurred in the Acts of that session, neither at tho time nor since, and ho stated so in tho House, although he was not present when one particular Bill was read. Ho believed a certain amount of confiscation was necessary and advisable, but he never did expect that (hoy could recoup £3,000,000 by tho sales of confiscated land; he thought that ono of the maddest ideas of ono of the least competent Treasurers that over sat on tho Treasury Bench of the House. Ho believed it could not bo carried out, but he did bolievo that there was some reasonable hope that tho expenditure of tho monoy would bring tho war to a close, but anv littlo expectations ho had had were disappointed. Ho was unwilling to go into the question at any length, because it would lead him to refer to a gentleman uufoi'tunatoly not in tho House 5 but there was no doubt that that schomo broko down in tho most lamentable manner in which any schemo ever did in this or any other colony. Before tho passing of that £3,000,000 Loan Act tho colony was in a position in which ho thought tho then Government, with discretion and good management, might, at a very small expenso, by relying on their own exertions and those of tho friendly natives, as tho prosonfc Government had done, have suppressed the rebellion. He should havo been ashamed if, instead of coming into office with £900,000 in debt at their bankers, thoy had come in with a clean bill and j £500,000 to their credit, and had not crushed tho
rebellion. That was his op'nion, although hon. members might poWiaps diner from bim; but a good many people,.perhaps, look'-ng at what they had done with £900,000 against thorn at their baukers. would think they had not done so badly under those circumstances as tho previous Govern-
ment had done with £3,000,000, or something like it, to their credit. Ho would say, therefore, this ono tbing—that he thought they were losing time in makmg aggravating statements, either on one of the House or the other. (Hear, hear.) Aud ho would not have broached the subject, had it not boon for tho direct challenge of members in opposition. Ho would bave wished hon. members
i'o'n Auckland to have allowed tho Government
to bctile down to work; have accepted the future which was before them; have considered what were their resources; have had more confidence in themselves, in the Government, and in the assistance to bo rendered from tho home country, and nave set thomselves to accepting facts which
bey could not alter.
They might as welt stand
by ' a river and try to send back the water to its fount, as try to call back those halcyon days of largo expenditure, which, whatever the Ministry might do, had passed for ever. Ho
thought it was a pity that hon. members should ho hastily take a mere matter of figures and finance, a mere matter of fact enunciation, which
was necessary for putting the true state of the colony before them, as an attack on a province, which, whatever honourable members might say, the people of Auckland would see on some future day was so far from being injured bytbe Ministry, tbat it bad been been benefited by them (hear, beav) in consequence of having been obliged by tbe Government to look to their own •esources, which were as ample as the people were able. Having studied for many years the course of events in colonies and their growth, be had the firmest belief that such a body of Englishmen as were in Auckland, and possessed of such a fine territory, could not fail except by relying on adventitious circumstances and by relying on others instead of on themselves. (Applause.)
Mr. John Williamson said that the lion, member (Mr. Weld), in his speech, had asserted as much as would lead hon. members and the people of the colony to the conclusion that the inhabitants of Auckland had been, up to this time, mere camp followers, lazy, indolent colonists and worthless people, who bad Dever helped them selves, and that tbe present Government were about to give them an opportunity, for the first time, of acting like men, and developing the resources of the country. Tbe hou. member then compared some statistics of Auckland with those of other provinces, previous to the war, to show the industry of its inhabitants. These weve tbe people now stigmatized as camp followers.
The Prgmieb (Hon. Mr. Weld) rose to ex> plain that he had not made use of such an expressicn.
Mr John Williamson said he (Mr. Weld) had made use of expressions which would lead to that inference, and had, moreover, an animus against Auckland in spile of his apparently warm wishes for its welfare. On that account he felt a perfectly justifiable indignation. He had at first been inclined to support the present Ministry, as they were about to introduce peaceful measures, but when he found they were about to -initiate such, a politfjr as would -bo the ruin of Auckland, ho bad changed his mind. He believed that the withdrawal of the troops was a most dangerous step to take, and would lead to most disastrous results. He had hardly, indeed, believed that the Government were in earnest, for soon after they came into office they initiated a new war, with those same troops they had decided to dispense with. The Ministry were also introducing measures which could only be carried out withthe aid 01 the troops. It had been said by the Colonial Treasurer, that Auckland hung like a millstone rouad tbe financial neck of the colony, in consequence of the expenditure lavished on it. If so, tbe people of Auckland were quite willing to manage their own affairs, and be answerable to G '"eal, Britain for the treatment of those who were, after all, some of her best inhabitants. They would, however, be responsible for any just debts which they had incurred. Mr. Vogel said the Premier (Mr. Weld) did not appear to be aware that he depreciated Auckland, as he was much in the habit of doing so. The statistics which had been referred to by an hon. member (Mr. Williamson) were a true guide by which to judge of the progress of the various thecolony, although the Government might treat them with contempt. The Premier (Mr. Weld) had iodulged in the same kind of slander against Auckland as had been indulged in by the people in England against the colony at large, as might not only be perceived by his speeches, but also by some of the memoranda which he had written. The hon. member then noticed some points in the statement of the Colonial Treasurer. The House then adjourned, as usual, till seven o'clock.
The House met again at seven o'clock, when the debate was resumed. Mr. Crosbie Waed said—The early part of this debate had reference to a personal matter, and to the interests of a particular province. It is doubtless very right that the expressions used by the Colonial Treasurer should be explained, and that the ease of Auckland should be heard at_ full length injustice to the interests of that province. I do not deny that the grievances of any province should be beard at full length before giving further supplies; but I do hope there is not going to be too much of this. We cannot occupy our whole time in discussing whether a member has used injurious expressions. I hope, then, that the part of the debate has come when I may venture on the broader ground of the argument, and look at it in the same point of view as the Colonial Treasurer looked at it, with regard to the present financial p< sition of the colony. As regards that division of the colony I represent, the Government are prepared for what I have to say. They know my views. On these proposals there is but little to say, and that little is of a critical character, and it is not the pleasantest in the world to say. The Government, I hope will be prepared to hear these criticisms in the first place, because it is right to say them; and, in the second place, because whatever we say, can do them no harm. If half friends and, whole foes were to bring together all their forces against the Government, it would not throw them out of their seats, but it might have only the effect of dissolving the Parliament a few weeks earlier than it would otherwise be. But, whatever can bo said cannot do them any real detriment—cannot turn them out. The financial statement, as far as concerns the South, is summed up in this view.—Tho Treasurer is going to take away all our chance of surplus revenue—he is going to reduce the throe-eignths of the customs revenue allowed to the provinces to two-eighths—a reduction of fifty per cent, on the revenue of all the provinces. The Colontax Treasurer (Hon. Mr. Fitzherbert): No, no. Mr Crosbik Ward: I have the hon. member s own figures for it. The. Customs revenue is to be £780,000. The provinces are to get one-halt 01 that,'partly by way of local estimates, and partly in aid of 'provincial revenue proper. The local expenditure is to bo £180,000, and the amount payable to the provincial Ordinary expenditure is £2 J 0 000 tor the six months. 1 he total customs revenue being estimated at £750,000 por annum* tho provinces would have got three ; eighths ot that revenue, which would amount to about £202 000. Now wo are only to get £210,000. Instead of getting three-eighths of our share of the surplus, we aro to get two-oighihs and no surplus. I don't say that tho provinces have a legal claim to that three-eighths, but it is the smallest amount that tho provinces mo able to get on with. We know pretty well, from our mtimaoy with provincial estimates, that the three-eighths is little enough to carry on the affairs ot the province. But the Treasurer says to us, abandon vour chances of tho surplus, and one-eighth of the customs' revenue besides. And, besides all that, we are to endure a taxation on stamps, and on distillation, although that is only a minor amount, to the extent of £42,500, for the year. These are in addition to the taxation which, at the present moment, is exceedingly' .evere. Every rtennv of that taxation is taken out of tho pockets of thoso who can ill afford it. We are to be mulcted at both ends-deprived of a portion of
our rovenuo, and made to pay more taxes. But that is not tho whole, bocauso,' if 1 read his statement aright, it appears to mo ho has provided, out of the ordinary rovenuo of tho coming year, the BU , m in for defonco purposes propor, for a-half year from tho ensuing first of January. If in tho cu<Tont financial year thoro bo £00,000 wanted for tho half year, thoro will bo required £120,000 for tho next year. [Major Atftirmn— " Moro than that."'| Tho share' of tho provncos next year will thoroi'oro bo loss by £00,000 at least oven than this year, I do think that I havo a right to say that tho financial proposal which ends in that is not |a satisfactory 000 to tlioso who have provincial intoresfa at hoavt. I do not uso tho word " Provincial "as it is sometimes usee!: I mean to say that thoso who have the interests of tho minor Governments of the country at, heart—who wish to look after tho ordinary aclministrution of afFairs in tho Provinces, must look on this us a very unsatisfactory proceeding. As to surplus rovenuo, 1 do think it was hard, during tho past few tho General Government should havo had no claim on the expansion of the revenue. The Colonial Treasurer was a little less than fully explanatory when ho made out that tho General Government was losing bocauso of tho excess of expend ituro over the appropriation. If that excess occurred, it was the fault of the General Government. They could never havo reimbursed themselves out of any fund until next year. The solo claim which they had, and what they ought to have done was to estimate the revenue to tho extont they think it will bear. If they hud underestimated the expenditure, they had only themselves to blame. If they tell tho House that the provinces aro in tho position of junior partners, who could not only spend tho money of tho firm but tako the senior partner's spare cash to pay their debts, besides, it was misleading the House. The provinces stand in this relation to tho General Government, that the senior partner has the option of taking all tho money of the firm to pay his debts, and the provinces are left with only whai he chooses to leave them to pay theirs. Tho Colonial Treasurer was scarcely just to the provinces on that subject. That is of little moment; it is but fair that if any expansion should occur on the revenue of any particular year, the provinces should at least share that with the General Government, and if the h- in. gentleman does propose to carry on that surplus revenue to the next year, and make it available for the purposes of the ensuing year, I have no objection to it. But ho ought to do it with a clear statement, and not to introduce it to the House with a little unfair show of having suffered robbery on the part of the provinces. But the Colonial Treasurer was not satisfied with cutting off our surplus revenue, and reducing our share of the customs receipts, and imposing additional taxation, he casts a wistful j eye to tne territorial revenue.
The Colonial Tbeasueer (Hon. Mr. Fitzherbert): If the hon. member is desirous of not misleading the House, he will allow me to interrupt him. On two points he has misunderstood me. He says that I propose to cut off 60 per cent, from the provincial revenue. That is not
;he case. As to the territorial revenue, I supposed it impossible that ho could misinterpret what I had said on that point. No single expression that dropped from me could be twisted into that meaning. If J. did say so, allow me to correct any such expression. Whilst I did regard, in 1856, this arrangement—whilst I thought that it was a hard measure meted out to the North, there is not u man in New Zealand who has acted more loyally to that arrangement than myself. Mr. C. Wabd : I am delighted that the remark has brought out the indignation of the Colonial Treasurer, because, while he is indignant at the imputation, I shall hold the territorial revenue safe. I was not going inferentially even to say that he meant to touch that revenue. I did not mean to insinuate that, but I was going to say that ho looked at it with a wistful eye. I know it is a subject that can scarcely be handled without creating suspicion, and if he is willing to allay this suspicion \vq are also anxious to prove that there is no ground for it. If the Colonial Treasurer will tell us whether these figures are true or not, it will clear up that point. The total amount of customs revenue for the ensuing year is £780,000. The Colonial Treasurer proposes to appropriate one-half of that to the provinces for all purposes. He says he will allow to local general charges £180,000, leaving £210,000 to bo provincial revenue proper. That is the share to be paid to the provinces during the present year. Three-eighths is what they were to be paid, according to the old system; that was an amount of £292,000, and the difference between £210,000 and £292,000 is about one-eighth, or from threeeighths to two-eighths a reduction. If there is an increase of the Customs duties, he intends to carry it all to the credit the General Government. If it is not so, I have misunderstood him. As to the territorial revenue it would be a good thing, in the Treasurer's opinion, to shew it on the estimates of the colony. It would look well in the eyes of a foreigner, or to display before our creditors at home. But he will remember that if ho shewed it on one side of his account, he would also have to shew very large liabilities on the other side. If he took that territorial revenue, and the duties belonging to it, he would not shew any greater balance than he did at present. But the Colonial Treasurer congratulated those provinces which had territorial revenue upon having such a fund during the time of war and trouble. I think he said that it was rather hard on the colony that these territorial revenues should not be brought to account at the time the colony was pressed with war and tribulation. (No.) I received an impression of this kind. It is a most fortunate thing for the colony that in time of war there has been such a fund available for ordinary purposes, some fund that could not be touched, but which was left to keep vitality in the colony, and to keep the i operations of colonization going forward. Were it not for such a fund, it might have been that the colony wouid have been drained of its resources. I will now call the attention of hon. members to the expressions used in the earlier part of this debate by the hon. the Premier. I call the attention particularly of those hon. members who, on a previous evening, declined fo- some private reason to maintain the integrity of the existing provinces. I call their attention to those warning words which dropped from him when he told the Assembly that this session would not leave them in their present position; when he told them that another session would not find them with power to maintain their rights. He asserted that the Treasurer's change of the law relating to surplus revenues was consistent with this changing condition of the provinces. I see no argument in that but this. The time will come next session that the provinces will be so weak that the Government will be able to enforce the present proposed system of finance without the provinces being able to help themselves. Does uot this affect those gentlemen who the other night refused to maintain the integrity of the provinces P I now pass to the colonial question, the financial condition of the colony at this moment, or, rather, the condition of the Northern Island—the question of the expenditure of the £3,000,000 loan. Whether it was possible to avoid it or whether it was not possible to avoid it, we must admit this fact, that that loan was not spent according to law. The sums mentioned in the Loan Appropriation Act of 1883 have been widely departed from. This House has not yet given consent to that mistaken appropriation of these $ums. The fault lies (I am speaking technically) with the Executive. The House is no party as yet to the loan of 1863 having been applied otherwise than it was intended in that Act. The House could, if it choose to insist upon it, say, the amount that ought to have been spent for carrying on the war was one million, and that that is all it will give its consent to." The House is not to be presumed to have consented to the way in Which the war has been carried on, or the money that has been spent on the war. The House will, no doubt, at the proper time, assent to any departures from law which were unavoidable j but I wish the House to understand that as yet we have given no assent to the altered expenditure of the loan for the war. There was a Government which had more to do with that than the present Government. Its members are not now in the Assembly, and I will not rake up the question whether they were right or wrong. I will not make allegations which cannot be answered or explained. I confine myself to attacking those who can defend themselves, and I put the point to the Houso and the present Ministry, as a friend of theirs. When the present Ministry came into office they found the expenditure of the loan in a certain position, thoy found that the million which was to be oxpended for war had beon already exceeded, or was on the point of being exceedod. Now it has been still inoio largely exceeded. Jjooking at the thing from a strictly legal point of view, do wo not hold tho present Ministry responsible for having exceeded the law to that extent ? They could not assumo last session that tho House gave them leavo to do it. Granting to the present Government the duty of making good tho credit of the colony in all the engagements of their predecessors in regard to tho war, are they not responsible to the Houso for having spent out of the unvoted money what was spoilt in tho Wanganui and Taranaki campaign ? What answer can thoy givo to the Middle Island for having so far gone on with the war, aAd entored into a now phase of it, without having taken means, apart from this threo million loan, to meet the expense P Wo have not got from tho Colonial Treasurer any estimate of the sums to bo received by the colony for confiscated lands between this and Taranaki. Wo have not hoard one single word from the Colonial Treasurer about confiscated lands that are to be. Are wo to be told by the same Ministry who have roflocfcod on thoir preuocessors, that they have initiated a new campaign without means, and have made no provisions tor meeting the expense, as they might have done by means of coniiscation. I expected it from them, and am surprised not to hear it from tliem. lam surprised at it, because it seems to me to ha.-e
been an oversight on the part of the Colonial Treasure.", that ho did not bring a large amount to balance his expenditure out of this fund. I have listened to the native policy from the Minister, for Native Affairs, to the defence policy from tho Dcfenco Minister, and, lastly to, tho finance policy, and I do think that the Government have not Diced this confiscation policy at all, that I hey have been shy of committing themselves to what is a plain duty. It is owing, probably, to the expression of English opinion on the Act of 1863, that they have departed from that plan accepted by the House of making the war pay largely for itself. I don't think it at all follows, that because the plan of confiscation hitherto adopted has only succeeded in making the lands taken, exceedingly expensive, that confiscation is not n wise nnd profitable plan, I have no sympathy with rebel natives. I don't understand that we are to be left to encounter the enormous burden of the war, and then to treat tho natives as if they wero bettor than they were before the war began. Before the war began we forbade tliom to sell their land to Europeans; we used to buy their lands at Is an acre (A Voice: 2d), or some very low figure, but when tiio natives have been so rebellious as to givo us cause of war, and to put themselves in the wrong, it appears to me to be a wonderful thing that wo should end in giving them ail their lands, and allowing them to make twenty times the original market price. Js it not astonishing that wo should have been forced into war, carried it on at oar own expense, and also leave the rebels' territory more valuable than it was before? We should have made these natives feel the consequences in their persons ; wo should have made those who brought about the war pay a large portion of the cost of it. Ido say, with all respect for English opinion, that it is not English opinion we are to bow to. I should be ashamed of this House and the colony if, after in 1803, asserting that it was right that the expenses of war should fall on rebel Maoris, that wc should now throw up that, and say we are ashamed of ourselves, and that we will treat them as if they had never been rebels. Let us have some consistency. I believe, in theory, the Settlements Act of 1803 was perfectly right. I was not a party to it, but as far as the theory of making the lands of rebels pay for the war they brought on, it was perfectly correct. If this is .so, if we are going on with the policy of confiscation, let us not only have the theory from one Minister, bat the practice from another. If the Native and Defence Ministers' plans are real and not visionary, let the Treasurer make a counterpart statement, and carry something to the credit of the war. Let the Finance Minister back his colleague, by saying that this land is to produce something. Confiscation accompanied by compensation, on the present system, is a magnificently inoperative plan. '.What prevents the Government of the Colony, who have said one after another that the Ngatiru mui and Taranaki tribes have misbehaved themselves —what prevents them saying that the whole of their land belongs to the Crown ? What prevents themfromtaking possession of that land as soon as they can touch it ? I trust the Government will not think of going through such a routine as has attended the cases of Maoris in Taranaki and Waikato. It docs not follow, because we do not take proper measures, that the land is not valuable. There is a magnificent financial prospect before the Government if they will declare the policy which was correct in 1863 is correct in 1865. Let us not forget our own opinions merely because people across the water have told us that our opinions are open to suspicion. I believe, if the territory which lies between this and Taranaki, if the territory which lies north of Taranaki, which lies anywhere where the tribes themselves, as a tribe, had participated in the rebellion, were declared no longer the property of the tribes, that capitalists would give handsome sums of money for these lands, and give Government no further trouble about it. It is false j delicacy, when we have have spent money on subduing rebellion, to hesitate about doing this. I may be told that this is inconsistent with justice. Ido not think it is. The truest justice can be done to the Maoris by doing it to ourselves. If we make ample reserves for the native population, give them the benefits of real tenure of lands, admit them to participation of representation, and surround them with Europeans, so that the law can get at them, we are doing them a greater benefit than the value of the land represents. I should give to all the Maoris of this colony enough land for their purposes, and I should deliberately say, the remainder of the land now belongs to the Queen to satisfy the cost of rebel-
lion. (Hear.) That is the policy which, in those gentlemen's places, with due regard to justice and humanity, and to the opinion of England, I should be content to get up and arg„e. If we do not hear that this confiscated land is to produce money, I shall not believe that they intend to do anything. But if we are not to be prevented from reimbursing ourselves, if we have a territory
to turn to account, it opens a vista for Few Zealand, which the Treasurer's financial statement does not open. If we have this debt hanging over us without the means of paying it, I do not see a very hopeful state of things; but by the process I have indicated, the burden of the debt will be a small burden after all. I hope I shall not be
told that this is a blood-thirsty and sanguinary policy. Ido not wish to hurt a single man, but to be pottering about claims which cost more to adjust than they are worth is folly, when we might do them justice by a much easier method. I recall the statement of an hon. gentleman in
this House, who said that the friendly natives never had any arms, and the rebel natives never had any land. This will ever be the case. There is a prospect of justice to the natives and financial and political advantage to us if a bold policy be adopted. Passing on, we are told that the next year's native estimates are £59,000- I want to know why that is not an expenditure locally charged. I want to know why anybody is to pay for governing the natives but the natives themselves, or the people amongst whom they are to reside. Why are those natives dealt differently with to Europeans in this matter ? If we charge locally for governing in the South, why charge generally for governing the natives in the North? I shall take the opportunity, in the proper place, to move that they be locally charged. I heard with great surprise and anxiety of mind the proposition which arises from the dispatch of his Excellency the Governor, which was read last evening, for getting the Imperial guarantee to the existing loan, and then taking advan- ) tage of that guarantee to get another million for expenditure on native matters. We were asked to get the three million loan at five per cent., and when we found that was not enough we were
asked last session to increase the charges from five t« six per cent., the total amount being the same. It did not matter what we had to pay for it. We consented to pay £20,000 a year more for it. Are we to have the principal also increased ? That is the tale of the schoolboy's knife. The knife was the same although the blade was changed, and then it was the same knife although the handle was changed. If the Imperial guarantee is given, so much the better for the colony. Let us save our means, but do not let us increase our debt for purposes for which enough has been spent already.
The Attorney General (Hon. Mr. Sewell), enumerated the sources on which the Government relied in carrying out its policy. He was of opinion that a certain amount should be credited to the Government for the sale of confiscated land, but the House could not have expected the Colonial Treasurer to name any particular sum for that l tem. If, after providing land for military settlers and the loyal natives, there was a residue, the Government would turn it to the best account. He agreed with some of the remarks which had fallen from the hon. member (Mr. Ward), but ho could not agree with him when ho said that confiscation, accompanied by compensation, was a magnificently inoperative plan. The hon. member then entered into details of what the Government had done with regard to confiscation, and said that in a few days the proclamations, under the "Settlement Act," with regard to the West Coast, would be issued. The Attorney-General then alluded to the proposed distribution of the surplus revenue to the provinces, and took occasion to rebut the charge brought against him by the member for Nelson (Mr. Stafford), of inconsistency in his opinions on this point. The claims of the provinces, under the law, wero such as—if adhered to—would place them in a worse position than they had been hitherto. It could not be said, therefore, that the proposals of the Colonial Treasurer on this point were such as would wrong the provinces. With regard to the unauthorised expenditure, it had chiefly been caused by expenses in the Waikato and Taranaki, the former of which the Government had been charged with "repudiating," and the lattorof which had been incurred in carrying out the plans of a previous ministry. Although, in his opinion, Taranaki should never havo been colonised; yet, now, no one would venture to say that that sottlemont should be abandoned. War had, existod in Taranaki before it existed in the Waikato, and, m his opinion, should nover have been removed from there, yot the presont Ministry had been charged with commencing a now war there. The AttorneyGoneral then spoke of the withdrawal of the troops, and vindicated tho Government from the charge of inconsistency in advocating such withdrawal, and at the same time, in employing the troops. The campaign in Wanganui had, no doubt, reachcd unexpected dimensions, which he much regretted, but it was perfectly justifiable, and might have been a very small affair, if carried on in a propor manner. Tho Attorney-General then alluded to tho remarks of the member for Auckland (Mr. J. Williamson), in a former part of the debate, and read some statistics showing that the prosperity of Auckland was almost wholly owing to the expenditure which had taken place
Mr. Cbosbib Ward explained that he never suggested that the rights of loyal natives should be disregarded in any confiscation. He was in
favour of doing justice to all natives. whether loyal or disloyal. He further explained that he never meant to say that the policy of the WanWn l K C f mp Ti"' n Ti'" 8 il now and hiul never been before the House, but that, financially, it had never been sanctioned by the House. J-haf' tho statement made by the Hon. Colonial Insurer was n mere general statement, and really me.ujt nothing. lie contended that the financial condition and embarksrnents of Southland and tho chums of Otatro had boon overlooked. I|,. would ask. how were the province! to exist.' and he should also like to know what amount whs to be expended in carrying out a sentimental policy towards the Maori race; and he complained tlial the Attoraey-Gene-ral had not done justice to tho T'<>\- Minint r-. by stating that it was through the interference of' the representative of the Queen that thea* policy was not, carried out. There could be no qu-stion' that a revision of the tariff was necessary, but at the same time the House ought to know what was the nature of that revision.
Mr. CofiENSo said he believed that the speech of the hon. the Treasurer was in tho hands of the printer before it was delivered in that House. He expressed his regret, at the animus which had been shown by the Ministry against Auckland, and he trusted that such allusions to Auckland as had been marie would not be made in future. The hon. member complained t hat, instead of altering the tariff no as to make it pre.-s less heavily on the population, it, was proposed to continue the present high rates. Jfe contended that the Ileus* should not give up the tbree-eightbs of the revenue which the provinces bad hitherto received unless some substantial guarantee was given by the Government in favour of the provinces. He thought it was worth consideration, whether a slight tax upon wool or an income tax would not be better than a Btamp tax. Mr. Girdium, said, that as expenses had been incurred they must be met, and he trusted that, instead of wrangling, hon. members would apply themselves to business.
Mr. Harrison made a few remarks on the proposal relating to the surplus revenue to be distributed to the provinces. Mr. Cox referred to a reply unanimously adopted in a former session by the House, including some of the members for Auckland now in the House. With regard to the opinions expressed in England on the former policy of the colony, they couM be excused, as the people there were, in most cases, ignorant of the facts, but not so those who had been in the colony, amongst whom he included the present Native Minister. He would, however, support the present Government, as he believed the membeis of it were in earnest, as well in the financial part of their policy as in other parts, for he believed it to be unavoidable. Mr. Wilson alluded to opinions formerly expressed by him in favour of confiscation, which were received with anything but satisfaction. He congratulated the House on the opinions which it now held. The hon. member then adduced evidence to show that the present Ministry were justified in undertaking the Wangranui campaign.
Mr. G-. Geaham said lie had been pleased with the present Government in some respects, for their policy had generally been moderate; but he was very much opposed to the policy of confiscation which they appeared to be initiating.
Mr. Reysolds said that the financial statement, although very clearly expressed, was unsatisfactory to many members, including himself. It was proposed to increase the tariff, contrary to the anticipations of the Government last session, and also to repeal the Surplus Revenue Act, a step which would be disastrous to the whole colony, as the provinces would thereby he ruined. Before the House consented to any fresh taxation, it should have a distinct understanding as to what the Ministry would do under the Native Settlements Act. On the motion of Mr. Mantell, the debate wag then adjourned to the following day. xew Bins. The following Bills, brought from the Upper House, were read a first time—Religious Charitable and Educational Trusts Bill and Prisoners Removal Bill. MILITIA ACTS REPEAL BILL. The adjourned debate on the second reading of this Bill was postponed till Tuesday next. MARINE BOARD AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed, and then the House adjourned.
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Bibliographic details
Lyttelton Times, Volume XXIV, Issue 1481, 11 September 1865, Page 2
Word Count
14,404GENERAL ASSEMBLY. Lyttelton Times, Volume XXIV, Issue 1481, 11 September 1865, Page 2
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