EXTRACTS FROM THE DEBATES

Lyttelton Times, Volume XVI, Issue 908, 24 July 1861, Page 3

EXTRACTS FROM THE DEBATES

OF THE ~ HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday—June 26. WSBIDEIUTIOS OP HIS EXCELLEHCY's MESSAGE KO. 2. (Continued from our last.) rebmt;WlLJ; IAMBON having replied at some length, broS 8 'c char Ses of cowardice and knavery brought apainst tiie house by Mr. Stafford, ' ■ • ferrS AF. FORD begged to explain that he had preof Hip w ° ge °f cowardice against any member that if 7 °ÜBe ' ? r any Person out of it; he had said deserve tnT^" 1' rse Were adopted ; they , would had hi 1 c bra"ded as cowards and knaves, v Nor the lL^ r 1 re f ? udlated labilities entered,into with MaWv' ♦ Government for the payment of her' tlie Innp • tr,°A Pß ~what he did d 0 was t0 propose to £5 nX.A yovernment that the colony should pay iVstati ,• Pi WhateTer n^ber of troops, might mer ?n" cdl?. tlle colo»y- The Imperial Governclaim, w^ ptlng } lis P^posal had made additional wore- «!"m r U,' d amount t0 about £5 per head barrL'ko VxT d also asked for the cost of erecting beforer tv , ew' Plymouth which were constructed charmJ w ,ny iVr"' callfed on to V™vide for such sanetfnn * i • d refused these claims without the bavinJ 'I 1 but he emphatically denied him or t t pudlated any engagement ever made by ■VVl.pn h House> with the-Imperial Government. came » , reportofthe Military Defence Gommittee they t.i o a members might make any remarks g Phased uponjit.u t> ■:;■;■-■'>j:x ;,;: ..b-■.'•:; 'v.- - .\* • -cox said he would not characterize the taste

whose histrionic exhibitions formerly denLtif fi"' frequenters of Bartholomew Fair and £ l -the 1 want a hoigh irtgedynTJ' K? ho^T BMs the head of the Govern mont was eVidenilv ?' ""* would now not further notice it. But there was short, a peculiarity which Mr. Fox avoided.) Tlfe t^tfZVl^ Ot haT iDg ?PProa«hed the subject n SKof S?w J pp? al t0 aU the membßrs on this 2 L^ 11™86: 5 aPPea1' 8ir 't0 you, whether it was not determined by myself and those with mr P^ U? Ily MtlOngbeforethiß commenced, to lay aside all party action, and to eive the Mimstry our cordial concurrence in fig^in/out his constitutional battle on which the GoSrno? has thrown the gauntlet. And having m y Se "f sir before avowed this, and you, sir, having Supported me* I say it is not consistent with the usages of gentlemen for the hon. member to persist in de nouncmg the part we now take as the result of party feeling, Sir, if proof to the contrary were required the House has it in the fact of my withdrawing the notice of a motion of want of confidence in Ministers _whichj had given, till this matter be disposed ot. If I had been actuated by party feelin-g would I have delayed that motion ? What could my side of the House gain by delay ? The hon. member then proceeded to argue that the Governor had departed from the established usage in reference to Responsible Government, by abstaining from consulting his Ministers m reference to his Message. The memorandum by which ministerial relations* were established, distinctly stated that oh " questions of prerogative or Imperial interests, His Excellency would be happy to receive the advice of his Ministers, though not bound to act on it." By another Memorandum explaining, this, his .Excellency said that lie understood by it that all such questions were to be considered as within sections 10, 11, arid 12 of the Royal Instructions," and by those Royal Instructions he was expressly directed "on all occasions to consult his Executive Council." The conclusion was a logical necessity; that on Imperial questions his Excellency was bound to consult his Ministers, though open to reject their ad vide. On this occasion he had not consulted them, and it was a breach of the arrangement between himself and that House which the Ministry was bound to resent. The hon. the Colonial Treasurer who was such an adept at splitting hairs, pretended to believe that the members on this side of the House were talking against their better knowledge. He denied the fact; and considered it impossible to arrive at any other conclusion;than that which he had arrived at. He would not now discuss the merits of the Message, or its important subject matter. The -tone which the Colonial Secretary had given to the debate was not that in which it ought to be approached and the subject shouldbe deferred till thei tHouse was prepared to ;addre : §3 # il;sjlf to iJ^Q aicaliner-temper than tliat exhibited-by the.hon. gentleman. It was not creditable to the Ministerial table that such 'a tone should proceed from it; if there was any part of the House where courtesy, gentlemanly demeanour, he would hot say generosity, ought to prevail, it was on'the ministerial benches. He was sorry to say that on this occasion there had been a melancholy display of the contrary. He" should therefore move the adjournment of the debate, that.the..Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again, in order'that he1 might consult, with his friends/on the course to beipursued and come prepared on a following day with an amendment to tlfe ministerial address; (Cheers.) : : <~-'■

-After a few^words from Mr. Dick-in support of the last speaker,. .Mr. C. W. RfeHMQND said that there was nothing to complain of'in the tone of the remarks of the member for I^unedin (Mr. Dick) because, unlike the member for ParneU (Mr. Reader Wood) he had not affected a knowledge of subjects upon which he was necessarily uninformed. It was not surprising that some new members should find difficulty when hon. members opposite had been floundering about and making blunder after blunder. The hon. member for Duriedin had stated that, as the Governor's message merely asked the' House to explain the resolutions adopted on the 19th, there seemed no reason why his Excellencyshould not have consulted ministers \ in the usual wayj Now, if this were a complete accounts of what the message contained, he (Mr. R.) should agree with that hon. member. But this was not fully stating the case. See what the message really contained., The Governor, as the representative of the Imperial Government, prescribed certain terms >to the colony.l [Here the hon. member read the .passages; of the message in which the Governor states, "that the troop's now in the colony have been sent to1 meet an emergency, hot to act as a garrison, a service for which he is not prepared to retain them foran indefinite period; ":• and in which his Excellency declares "that the question of colonial assistance, as regards both men and money, ought to be more clearly defined than it has yet been "—and then goes on to intimate her Majesty's Imperial Government expects from the colony a full and cordial co-operation, both in men and money, and unless he is assured of its continuance, is not prepared to instruct Xieut.-General Cameron to employ the Imperial forces." These demands (the hon. member continued) were obviously demands made upon the government of the colony, and. it was palpably absurd to contend that they ought to have been made or advised by that government itself. His Excellency in the message plainly and unmistakeably assumed (as it was a right and duty to do in such a case) a position quite external, and, as it were, antagonistic, to the government of the colony. What part could a colonial ministry have in the making of such demands? The hon. member for Rangitikei (Mr. Fox) still professed to misunderstand the matter, and he. (Mr. R.) was bound to believe him. All he could say was that the hon. member had not so good a head as he had given him credit for. What was the use of laboriously expounding the memorandum of 1856? It had nothing to do with the subject? That memo, of necessity related exclusively to the business of the Colonial Government. But it was no part of the business of the Colonial Government to make demands uppa itself. As to the mention.of imperial Subjects in the memo., upon which so much stress was laid by the hon. member, that was easily explained. The business of the Colonial Government was divisible into matters purely colonial, and matters in winch the Imperial; Government had an interest. It was to this latter class of imperial subjects that the memo, of 1856 related. Native affairs" belonged to this class of'mixed..questions^ But," altogether, apart from thel business-of the Colonial Government, there were matters-exclusively. Imperial, as to which the Governor liad always acted (as in the present case) as the agent; and representative of the Imperial Government, under the instructions of the Secretary of State. He (Mr. R.) observed that the hon. member for Rangitikei had not answered his reference to the course taken on the re- . moyal of the 58thregt M when both Houses addressed ; the' Governor to retain the regiment. The Governor replied that he was unable to do so, and his Excel-

Jencys message on that occasion expressly states that he did so after consulting the officer command ing the forces, and the Native Secretary That was a stronger case for consulting ministers 'than tne present; and yet they were not consulted'■ The hou. member for Rangitikoi described the speech of the Colonial- Secretary As in the high tragedy^vein VVell, the debates of the House .on'the present aues' tion might well be described in the favorite language or a popular author, with whom some members were acquainted, as tragic in the extreme—at least as a tragi-come'dy, at once melancholy and ■ridiculous. Here, with ;the most important question" hanging over their heads that ever was discussed by a Colonial Assembly, were they splitting hairs on petty questions of- constitutional ,punctilio ami shirking the pith of the matter/ As regarded the proposition of the hon.: imember for Rangitikei to have progress reported, wfth &■ view to the more mature consideration jophe proposed answer to his Excellency, that wagquite fair, and the Government could not make the slightest objection to it. Mr. Eox, in reference; to ins motion to'report D'rogress, said he did not.think it was possible for. them to resume the debate before Friday. He could not see what time the members would have to prepare themselves The committees would be sitting at ten o clock in the morning (Thursday), and the House would sit at twelve o'clock. :The business might; be very shortly gone through to-morrow, and they wouJd be allowed time to consider and come fully prepared to take a decided course. If it was ad. journed till Friday they would be able to take issue in the matter. . ' . ■ ■:,■'■'■ m^i 1"' S? AJ FO, RD wouW offer no objection.; to the motion of the hon. member for Rangitiki; to report progress. He thought the House should 4iave time to consider before they came to a decision At the same time, it should be with the understanding iliat' this question should take precedence of all pthets except merely routine business, that it should-be placed as the first order of the day. ■• ;™V?f

Mr. Firth, with the permission of the House wished to say a few words to remove any misapprehension which the amendment he had had the honor to submit to the House on Wednesday evening had created. He believed that his speech had been more misunderstood than his amendment, though he thought both were generally well understood in the House. (Hear.) When proposing the amendment he had stated that it would have been well if the hon Native Minister had stated more clearly than he did that this matter was an imperial question When ne remembered that some hon. members last session and one at least this session, had endorsed the Duke of Newcastle's despatch, in which he stated that this was a settler's war, lie thought that it was high time it should be authoritatively stated that it was not a settler's war, but that it was an imperial war and with that view he proposed His amendment; but while he invited the House to state that it was an imperial war, and that the people of this country expected the expenses of the war to be paid out of the imperial treasury, it was. not his intention t6 shirk any duty, it was never his intention to say that the House refused to contribute its full share to the expenses of rifles, colonial forces, &c • and he repudiated, in the name of the colony, any imputation that that they were unprepared to take upon their own shoulders the colonial portion of the cost incurred. It had been said that it was fair for the colony to pay only for the colonial part of the forces used. No one ever objected to that, but it was not fair to pay in addition the imperial expenses, that might amount perhaps to half a million or a million sterling. (Hear.) When he said the colony was prepared to bear a fair share of the cost of the war he at the same time wanted the colony to take an independent stand, and therefore he could not a<Tree to one portion of the address. He did*not like half-and-half understandings witlvthe Home Government it was not right to say that we are going to take upon us a large proportion of the expenditure but that we hope we shall never be asked for payment On the part of the colonists, he protested against any minister of the day, when these matters came to be adjusted, going to the home country in the sneaking position of begging-off from payment of that which had been undei^kemin aohourof peril (j^ar.); He-desired the 'cdlbny to stand on a high position, and thai he thought was the wish 6f the House and the. country y ; they did not desire to kneel down before the imperial authorities, and try to sneak out of their liabilities, or refuse to "pay what ther, had;undertaken..(Applause.) He had a high opinion of colonial honour, and he did not wish it to be tarnished by the charge of repudiating our just debts. Another point arising out of the resolutions lately passed, and on which his attention had been fixed from.the first—the very considerable amount of loss sure to arise from the contest, now so imminent. On that point he wished the colonists to be put in-a proper position. When the settlers' farms arid homesteads were burned and destroyed, he wanted those poor people to be able to come to' the House and demand compensation; and he desired the Home Government to understand that they did not accept the position of compensation unless they had the power given them of compensating; for he knew that, influenced as the Imperial Government was by certain people in this country who persisted in asserting that" this was a settler's war, when the affairs came to a final adjustment there would be an immense outcry against taking the lands of the rebels. Now he took it that those lands were the natural funds from which 1?o compensate the ruined settlers. (Prolonged applause.) He wished therefore to put the colony in such a position that the Imperial Government at the end of,the war shall not be able to say, "we shall neither compensate from our own treasury, nor from the lands which we may fairly claim from the rebels." He did not therefore want the colony to be'supposed to repudiate that portion of the cost of fighting, which they were fairly entitled to pay, but he did not wish the lands of the i rebels to be proclaimed as the fund, from which ; compensation would be made to the settlers! (Hear.) ; There were a few things which the colony might be | very fairly called upon to pay. There was the £5 per man, which the Colonial Secretary in a very business-like manner had;put as a composition, so , that there could be no doubt about it, as to the colonial share of the cost of the imperial troops in this country. That was proper, but he believed that further claims had been set up on behalf of the troops which he would oppose when they came before the House—he referred to what was known as lodging . money, and which amounted to about .£7 per man . additional. He did not say that the troops were not entitled to this, nay, it might even be-a very proper claim upon the Imperial Government; but it was not fair to ask so poor a country as this to pay such aggravated charges. Another charge which they might fairly be called upon to pay, in addition to the £5 per man agreed upon, was the cost of" all rifles • put in their hands, however much it may be.; and he would like to see a rifle in every man's hand in the colony capable of bearing arms. There was also the cost of the volunteers and militia. These colonial troops performed duties that would have to be done by the military, were the colonists not both . ready and willing to assist the imperial authorities, as far as their limited powers permitted, in fighting out what was now every where admitted to be an imperial question^ The proportion to be paid by the colony might be so arranged that the colony should pay one shilling and sixpence of the two shillings and j sixpence per day paid the colonial forces when on active service. Hqwever,as he did not know how such gentlemen as dukes, marquesses, and earls conducted business, he would have all those conditions put upon record in the shape of a.specific arrangement (hear.) 'Mr.Firth then proceeded to vindicate his political consistency. He had always maintained that unless the Imperial authority was upheld by the Imperial Government, the country wouid not be ; worth living in. For twenty years past they had , been drifting to the position in which they found themselves; and it was now their duty to turn and ; face theimperious difficulty that beset them. They i had come to it face to face, and he, for one, would ! never draw back.■: He did not judge the justice of a \ course of policy; by the results of an unfortunate • military campaign. To form a judgment on such ; grounds was not only unwise, but at this crisis was . absolutely fatal, and he warned J honorable members ' against falling into so dangerous an error. (Hear.) jit was a great wrong to throw an imputation on the character of the British soldier, as in some instances had lately been the case, when his

£r e drbS jii if c vAby,the n°bie deeds °f * «lav tf- c dß> (Ap Plause-> Give him fair play: put him under the command of a man abe holdiZ atl5 inpta m^ c t0 °Ut « *S^matter by holding U p tl e question of expense or by appealing to the fears 'ot the people. The country was SI? pared to face the danger, and be true to £lf ffi the mother country; and he hoped that no party He h a 8d Whol/t ewn^ hafc Pf^ bei«g carried oul He had hoped that the resolutions of Wednesday evening instead of being misunderstood, would have laid the basis for an intimate union of all parties in the House, so that" the people of England and the rebel Maones might see that whatever had been the former divisions on this movement, at last they would be found as one man. He would urge the necessity for union at this crisis, and in doing so called their attention to a somewhat similar crisis in Europe at the beginning of this century, when the' fair fabric of society-was m-danger of being idestroyed by divisions among the leading English statesmen. At the beginning of the Freiioh revolution a man who bore the' noble name of Fox—Charles James Fox was led away by the specious use of the words freedom,""fraternity," and "the rights of man," so that he was induced to take sides almost against his countrymen, at all events to head a portion of his countrymen for the attainment ol objects which instead of being "the rights of man," had almost ended m sweeping away civilization. It was not .till these men saw the effects of the movement they had fostered, accumulating its forces under the first Napoleon for the invasion of England, to sweep from the earth the last bulwark of civilization itself that their eyes were fully opened, and 300,000 .yqlunteers sprang into existence, and when, to quote one of the greatest modern historians, "when the ; voice of faction was hushed, and the leaders of parties were banded together by 6ne spirit to meet the common-foe." (Applause.) A crisis had arisen in wir own affairs requiring united vigorous action, and he called upon both sides of the House to sink minor: differences in the higher object in view. (Kjtieers.) The question was then put and carried. - r s d Chairraan left the chair and the House - The House adjourned at 25 minutes to 9 o'clock;