Provincial Council.

Lyttelton Times, Volume V, Issue 266, 19 May 1855, Page 5

Provincial Council.

Tuesday, May Tilth. Mr. Brittan having: laid on the table several returns moved for, rose to state to the house the intentions of the government for the session. He then briefly enumerated the measures they intended to ' proceed with, viz:—the Waste Lands Bill ; the Estimates, which would he different from those already laid before the Council, the Empowering Ordinance, the Census Bill, and a bill to acquire certain lands for the completion of the Sunnier road. On the Waste Lauds bill the executive would only act as the channel through which the regulations should be submitted to the house; they would take up the resolutions where the late government had left them, accepting the decision oi the Council in refeieuoe to the price of the land. Mr. Brittan concluded by proposing that the house go into committee on the Waste Lands Regulations. The house then went into committee, Mr. Fooks in the chair. Mr. Bi:ay proposed an addition to clause 23, having reference to the survey of lauds lving-be-yond the surveyed districts, and providing for the cost of such survey being made by the "laud purchaser. The motion was seconded by Mr. Skwell, and after considerable discussion was agreed to. Mr. Brittan then moved the adoption of clause marked i a., in the general regulations. Mr. Hall objected to the taking of this clause into consideration :it the present stage of their proceedings, and after a debate, in which Messrs. Taucitul, Sewell, and Packer took \iavt, Mr. Brittan's proposal was negatived. Afterwards, Mr. Sewkli, moved that the Commissioner of Ciown Lands be invited to give evidence upon the subject of the Waste Lands llegulations. A debate ensued, but the motion was agreed to.

An attempt was subsequently made by Mr. Seweld to revive the discussion upon the amendments, which led to a long1 and animated discussion, in which several honourable members took part. —The debate was then adjourned. [The greater portion of this day's paper being in type before the report of Tuesday's proceedings reached us, we were compelled to omit the whole of the speeches.] Wednesday, May 16th. Present—The Speaker, Messrs. Fooks, Bray, Barker, Brittan, J. and S. Bealey, Blakiston, Hall, Sewell, Ollivier, Rhodes, Thomson, Tancved, Ward, Aylmer, Wesienra, and Packer. Mr. Commissioner Brittan having taken his seat, Mr. J. Brittan moved that the examination should he conducted by the chairman, in the same mauner as it had been upon the occasion of the Chief Surveyor's evidence. The Commissioner proceeded with his evidence, which occupied two hours and a half, but for which we have no room this week. The committee adjourned to three o'clock. On the house reassembling. — Mr. Bhutan moved the adoption of clause "24. Mr. Ollivier rose to move that the word "lease" be substituted for the word "license." He urged the necessity of settling this disputed question of tenure. The stock owners had no inducement to improve their runs under the present insecure holding. He proposed that the holders of leases outside the block should be at liberty to .exchange them for leases under the altered regulations, so as to produce a uniform system; and argued that the exchange would be advantageous to them. He instanced the case of a stock ownerhaviug 150,000 acres outside the block, and 55,000 within it, and showed the difference of rent paid under existing regulations would be considerably in favour of the stock owner, by the exchange under the proposed low rental of the late government; but under the terms of rent which he had himself iriven notice of, which were, in fact, a medium between the amount paid under the existing regulations and those on the face of the new ones, ■would only impose an addition" of £70 upon a rental of £500 per annum ; while in exchange for that lent, he proposed lo give a secure tenure, which would be an encouragement to improvement, and from which source alone a considerable increase could be obtained in their operations. He would, therefore, leave the matter in the bands of the committee. Mr. Barkes, rose to second the amendment. He held to the opinion that a great portion of the land should be held under leases. The rents are larger than they ought to be in many cases, and until some good reason is afforded he could not reconcile himself to it. He looked to the principle of leases as part of a whole scheme. The system adopted by the Canterbury Association was, he believed, the best they could pursue. He was quite alive to the fact that the pasturage interest ought to be protected in the province. The Council was beset with a fear of a certain animal called the Land Jobber; and his learned friend, who was the leader of this cry, after a Tittle time passed in practising upon their {ears, proclaimed himself a Land Jobber. The whole of the land to the north and to the smith was let out, and they had a right to buy their land at !os. an acre. The stock owners ba»e already asked for a diminution of their rents. The honourable gentleman went fully into the principle of the Association's contract with purchasers. He argued that if justice could not be fairly dealt out to the purchaser, under the Association, be would advocate the system of leases. He believed the cry that it would tie up the land was an absurdity. He would not have the run bolder impeded in his tenure by persons buying up the land and interfering with the occupier under leases. Mr. Bua\" said the only observation he would make would be the reservation of land for freehold purposes. He would .suggest that the word lease should be introduced at a later period. It required mature consideration as to what lands should be open for leases, and what for occupation as freehold laud. Mr. J. Bealky asked the honourable gentleman if he would define what be meant by his lease. Did he mean that the run holder was to retain the lease against the purchaser, or against the government ? Mr. Ollivieb replied by drawing the honourable gentleman's attention to an amendment be had proposed in clause 30, in which be proposed to omit altogether the words " may be pur-

chased." |This would show that his intention was to give a bona fide lease, which could not be interfered with during the term of its tenure. Mr. Sewell : He had hoped to hear the opinion of the hon. gentleman, the late Provincial Secretary. As the framer of these regulations he ought to have favoured us with his views. The alteration is vastly more formidable than he expected. It would change the character of the regulations, and contradistinguish this Province from any other place in the dominions of the United Kingdom. The question is put, what do you mean by lease ? and the answer was clear and emphatic. But a license to depasture was merely a title to the herbage, and there bus always been a distinction drawn between pasturage and tillage rights. The proposal to give to every runholder an absolute lease at a\io:fcinal rent to the exclusion of the purchaser is hi point of fact to make a present to those who hold pasturage rights of the land itself. The battle has been fought in the remoter districts of New South Wales, there the effect of the Government regulations created almost a rebellion. The rule there was that no lands could be sold beyond a certain limit, except under a special survey. In 1846 an amendment was made to the Australian Land Act, by which no person but the squatter himself was allowed to purchase, and they were the masters of the country. Are we to say that we will be content with £1 per 100 acres, when we have been asking £3 per acre ? He desired to point out a fact in reference to improved tenure. In a return from New South Wales relating to improvements by squatters, the progress was specified in1 improvements, by cultivating grass, &c, and he would give the result. In the year 1846 there were 32,674 acres laid down, but in 5 years' time that quantity had decreased to 30,000 acres, and this was a fair example of the efiVct of improved cultivation. He felt strongly the evil of making pasturage regulations over the whole of this Province; there was jjgveat difficulty in dealing with the lands outside the block. He would give the house his reasons for thinking why they could not interfere with the holders outside the block. [The hon. genj tleman then read the license}. The Commissioner was authorised by the General jGoverntneut to issue those licenses, and they do not prescribe any means for their determination. The license is to be determined only by certain conditions. It might be desired by^the Crown Land Ordinance, and there was nothing there lo justify its determination. If at any time it is comprised within the hundred it may be determined. But he would be no advocate for the formation of a hundred foi|the|mere purpose of determining these, licenses'by a side wind. There was nothing else to determine them except the non-payment of fees, and the license. Had Sir George Grey the right to issue this license? No, it was then bad in law, for the General Assembly alone could maketheselaws; it, however, did not venture to nullify the act, but, on the contrary, confirmed them ab initio. The license is therefore valid, and comes before us lo be dealt with on its own terms. We have heard from the Commissioner that there is no available pastoral country, and it would not be expedient to create a new class of regulations. He would like to hear how far they had the legal power to interfere with the lands outside the block. If this could not be done, there was but one alternative, and that was to confine themselves to those within the block. Mr. Bray said on examining the figures submitted to them he found the maximum payable to'^the Province would be about £2000. He thought they should endeavour to make such terms that would induce rimholders voluntarily to surrender their leases, and at the same time improve the revenue of the Province. If we could make an uniform price of 20s. per 1000 acre.s for all runs, there would be derived for the purpose of Revenue a sum of £800, about onehalf of which we receive now. He would reduce the revenue thus far, and then suggest a separate ordinance imposing a poll tax of Id. for a sheep, and 6d. for cattle in and out of-jthe block. That tax would realise at the present time £900. There would thus be derived £1700, of which neither the New Zealand Company, nor the General Government could demand any portion. If the levy was made under the authority of the General Assembly, they could, as now, take their share, but if levied under the act of the Provincial Council, they could not. This was a mode of dealing wilh the lands within and without the block under an uniform system, and he calculated that a revenue of £4800 might

ultimately be obtained from this source Jor provincial purposes. Mr. Hall said they had discussed subjects which were not very pertinent to the question. The question is, whether you should give a lease of 14 years, or -a license to depasture stock, and it was better to take the discussion on this point at once. He had been challenged to give his views on the subject, but he was no longer responsible for these regulations, the duty rested elsewhere. As regarded the question of leases as a stockowner he should be glail to get it, bv^, he did not fask for it. He believed if snc)«*3 lease was given, it would o iiut act prejudicially. / He should not vote for it. He perhaps' might here leave the question, but the lion, gentleman's remarks rather deprecated generally security of tenure. He had been told that the 14 veins' tenure had procured a very extraordinary "revolution in the state of things in New South Wales. What was ths fact ? why, so soon as this was conceded, they built houses and homesteads, and even villages sprung up. This was an important amount of evidence in reply to the arguments of the hon. gentleman. The return itself which he had quoted was somewhat curious. There was no evidence to shew that it was the effect of a change of tenure, it was for a period before and since the altered regulations came into effect. In the year 1841, there was laid down, in grass 14,000 acres; in 1842, 1700; in 1843, 2,000 ; fin 1844, 19,000; in 1845, 22,000 ; in 1846, 32,000 ; in 1851,30,000. The fairest way was to take the average of live years before 1846, which was 22,000 acres, and subsequent to 1846, when they had this fixity of tenure, which was 2«,000 and four-fifths. When next the hon. gentleman quoted Blue Books, it would be very profitable to follow him in their examination. It would, he believed, be a breach of faith to intermeddle with the licenses outside the block ; they hold them under the law. of jthe land, but some gentlemen have nevertheless found out a means by.which they can be got rid of. This was their opinion, and they put that forth in clause 37, but they went on to say if they were voluntarily resigned, they should be entitled to derive the benefit of the change. These regulations had been under the consideration of the stocko\vners,anil they gave it as their opinion that their licenses would be voluntarily resigned in order to produce a uniformity of tenure. Mr. S. Bealev. His own feeling was decidedly against this pemianeiit. tenure. He thought it would create a feeling of class against class. It would be the interest of stockowners not to ask for so large a reservation of land which would exclude men from purchase. The additional tenure has not tended to diminish the amount of crops ?in New South Wales. He had tried improvements on a small scale, but there w;is no inducement to do so on a large one; the laying down of artificial grasses had been prodnctiverof beneficial results. If we could double the increase of wool, the amount of rent was as nothing, they would willingly pay a fair price in rent but they required a security of tenure. There was a reason, therefore, why the stuckowner should be protected except against the plough. Mr. Blakiston. This amendment was the most extraordinary one which he had ever heard ; it would throw the whole lands into the hands of a few, and would jjive them exclusive right. He could hardly understand how any one in his senses could entertain such an idea. Mr. Ollivier briefly replied, and said he would nevertheless put his opinion on record by taking a division. He might be in a minority, but like the learned gentleman he believed the house might one day think different. Whether an insane act or not, he was at least discharging a duty which he believed to be incumbent upon him. The question was negatived ; Mr. Ollivier voting alone in favour of it. Upon clause 25 being put by the chairman, Mr, B Birr an moved an amendment, that the words " within the Province ready to be place',!'1 should be struck out, and the words " to place'» substituted for it. Mr. Mall said the clause as it stood was merely a continuation of the usual practice under which a great number of arrangements had been entered into. Sheep were placed out; on thirds ; and the applicants had to prove on their taking up runs, that they had the sleep ready to place upon them. Mr. Hall explained fully the terms entered into with Mr. Godley. Mr..BfcALEY followed on the same side. JVIr. Skwell suggested the adoption of the

amendment, he was sorvy to hear the continual revival of Mr. Godley's regulations. He could not gainsay it, but he regretted this hearsay evidence, there was no distinction of stock belonging to persons outside the run, the only condition is that the stock shall be upon the run. Stock is taken upon thirds upon the ruu, inside the block, and is used for stocking the runs outside. If four separate runs for 5000 acs. were taken up for the purpose of securing water frontage, or what not; the holder ought to be subject to the conditions of four separate ■holdings. Mr. 'Beai-ey said in interpreting laws they had to lonk to what was custom, and the principle hitherto adopted has been the general custom of the Province. It would be an injury to individuals to alter them now. Mr. WESTENEAsairi he had Mr. Godley's permission to put his sheep on Mr. Burkes run. Mr. Bkittan said the practice was an objectional one. It has caused the country to be occupied prematurely to the injury of the bona h'de settler. Certain provisoes were afterwards attached to this clause, which was ultimately agreed to as amended. Clause 26 was then read and agreed to. [The remainder of this clay's proceedings we must postpone till Wednesday,]