GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Lyttelton Times, Volume IV, Issue 196, 16 September 1854, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

-■■ HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. , Wednesday, August 2. (Continued from our last.) Mr. Sewell rose to reply, but having already spoken, Mr. Fobsaith rose to order. The Speaker took the sense of the house, which decided to allow Mr. Sewell again to speak, and Mr. Forsailh again to reply. Mr. Sewell—The hon. member for the Northern Division had brought a very grave charge against him and his colleagues. They were accused of attempting to coerce his Excellency the Officer Administering the Government. He repudiated the charge with indignation. They had no fault to find with him, but with his advisers. They had been entirely deceived by those gentlemen. It had been clearly understood that'the present holders of office would retire as soon as provision were made for them, but they had not performed their agreement. It was against them, and not against his Excellency, that their complaints were preferred, and he regretted that his Excellency's name had been dragged into this dispute. The hon. member for the Northern Division accused them of ambition, as though they were actuated solely by a desire of personal aggrandisement. He denied the imputation — they had been solely influenced by public consideration—and now because they felt bound to insist upon the fulfilment of the terms upon which they had taken office, they were to be charged forsooth with attempting,'by means of a majority of that house, to wrest a larger measure of power from the grasp of his Excellency. The intentions of the present advisers of the Governor were clearly to be inferred from their own declarations. [Here the hon. gentleman read the documents.] He admitted there was some degree of ambiguity in the Colonial Treasurer's declaration—but he (Mr. Sewell) had always understood the Treasurer to mean that he would resign. He had no idea that the Crown was meant to signify a reference to England, but had understood the terms as used by the Colonial Treasurer to mean, as in its ordinary application, the Representative of the Crown here. He believed that any other interpretation was a mere subterfuge, a play upon words. Mb. Foesaith—He would be very brief, as the hon. member had not given him much to reply to. He would only advert to two points raised by the hon. member. The hon. member said the object of the movement was not to coerce the holders of office to fulfil theirs. This was a distinction without a difference. If the house would recur to the Governor's letter they would find that he had not formed his determination in ignorance of the views of the holders ? |of office. It was after they had acquainted him with their readiness to resign whenever they might be called upon that he had declared he would not interfere with their position, consequently the objection raised by the hon. member was groundless. The other point which he would notice was the ambiguity of the Colonial Treasurer's opinion as alluded to by the hon. member. He said he understood the Colonial Treasurer to u*e the word "Crown" as meaning the Governor or Representative of the Crown in the Colony—but how could this be the case when the word Crown was used a secoud time, and in a sense which clear!;,' explained the meaning of the writer. The words •were —"and upon the confirmation of such Act (the Act to grant a retiring allowance) by the CrowD,and the acceptance of his resignation, he would be prepared immediately to give up his office." Now the hon. member for Christchurch must have known that the " Crown" in this passage meant the autliOTities at home, and not the Governor here —because while the Governor may assent to acts in the Queen's name, he cannot in any other sense give confirmation to Acts. The Queen alone can confirm Acts of the Legislature. Mr. Fitz Gerald made some additional observations, declaring his belief that if the old ~tsficers were to tender their resignations and t|3jt his Excellency believed it to be for the •rreace and happiness of the country, he would accept them. Dr. Monro expressed his intention to vote for the motion. He had never lost confidence in the ministers, though he had sometimes differed from them. Results of a disastrous character may arise, but that house was in no way responsible for them. Nothing had taken place in the house to disappoint any reasonable ex-

pectation. A heavy responsibility must rest on the two irresponsible members of the Executive. Mr. Kevans said that Mr. Fitz Gerald's speech was grand. If ever a ministry had justified its position, this had done so. The lion, member then proceeded to comment severely on Mr. Wakefield having left the house as he had done some time before. Mr. M'Andrew observed that the course taken that night had been arranged by a majority of members out of,the house on ex parte statements. Both sides of the case should have been heard. It would have been better if that house had followed the example set in another place. Mr. O'Brien would vote for the motion, but he thought that ministers should have let that house know what they were about to do. Mr. Wortley shortly replied. The motion was put, and declared by the Speaker to be carried. A division was called for, to which Mr. Merriman objected, as there had been no dissentient voices. The names were however taken down, and it was found that 23 members were present. Several, besides Mr. Wakefield, had previously left the house. Dr. Featherston then proposed the resolution which has been already given. Seconded by Mr. Carleton, and carried. Dr. Featherston would move to-morrow, an address to his Excellency, embodying the resolution whioh had been agreed to, by the house. The house then adjourned till Friday at 6 o'clock. Friday, August 4. The Speaker took the Chair at 6 o'clock. Several notices of motion were withdrawn. Mr. Ludlam:—Sir, owing to the unavoidable absence of the lion, member for Wanganui from illness, I have been requested to bring forward the motion now standing in his name. Sir, I beg to move the following address to his Excellency:—[The hon. member then moved the address which appeared in the Lyttellon Times of Saturday, Sept. 2.] Sir, lam sorry the hon. member could not attend in his place, because I consider I tim a sorry substitute for him. The address needs no comment at my hands, but I will repeat what I said in this house upon the debate on the question of responsible government, that some time back I had doubts as to the working of responsible government in this colony. Those doubts had been removed by seeing it working1, and I now state that I have now become a firm disciple of that principle. If we wanted an example of its working, it occurred in this house, when three hon. members who occupied the Treasury Bench informed us that they could no longer hold those seats with honour to themselves and for the benefit of the country. Sir, the proceedings that occurred in this house last night will be the most memorable that will ever occur in the annals of this colony. Before I conclude, I would say that I concur with those members and in the opinion of this house, that, instead of blaming his Excellency for the present state of affairs, we should lay the blame on the shoulders of those officers who have brought him into this porition. Mr. Caei/eton rose to second the address. The hon. member observed upon the pointed distinction that had been drawn throughout by every one on his side of the house, between his Excellency and his Excellency's advisers. Far from being treated with that cruelty and injustice which was so compassionately apprehended by the hon. member for the Hutt, his Excellency had been most carefully disjoined from those whose conduct was under the consideration of the house. The most marked deference had been paid to himself, and more than that, there had been a strong manifestation of kindly feeling and goodwill. "No one could wish with more anxiety than himself (Mr. Carleton) that the prorogation of the Assembly, whenever it took place, should tell as much to the advancement of his Excellency's reputation as did the calling of it together, almost immediately upon the power passing into his hands. Dr. Baoot should be obliged to vote against the motion, as it was founded on a Resolution which asserted that in the opinion of this house the time had arrived when the safety of the colony demands the full recognition of that principle by the appointment to the principal offices of the Government of those who possess the confidence of his Excellency and of bolh the

houses of the Legislature. He (Dr. Bacot) did not consider that the safety of the colony was at all endangered, and he believed that as his Excellency the Officer Administering- the Government had no power to grant Responsible Government without first obtaining her Majesty's approval, he considered that the motion before the house would place his Excellency in the position of appearing- to endanger the safety of the colony by refusing- to grant what he really had no power to give. He (Dr. Bacot) considered the answer of his Excellency to the last memorandum of the ministry one of the most sensible things he had ever said, and if it had been said eight weeks sooner it would have been as honest and straightforward as sensible. He must vote against the motion. Some discussion then took place on the question, whether the house should consider anything whatever, before receiving his Excellency's explanation. Several members left the house ; but ultimately Mr. Ludlam's motion was agreed to and ordered to be presented. House adjourned till Saturday at 12 o'clock.

Saturday, August 5. The Speaker took the chair at 12 o'clock. Mr. Brown took the oath and his seat as member for the City of Auckland. He was presented by Messrs. Carleton and Fitz Gerald. House adjourned till 2 o'clock ; the hour at which his Excellency's Message on the resignation of Ministers was expected.

The Speaker resumed the Chair at 2 o'clock. The message from His Excellency, No. 25, which was given in the Lyttelton Times of Sept. 2, was announced and read. Mr. Wakefield made some observations, when Mr. Fitz Gerald nioved the adjournment of the House until 6 o'clock that evening.— Agreed to. ,

The Speaker took the Chair at 6 o'clock, and informed the house that he had received a sheet which had been accidentally omitted from his Excellency's message. „ Mr. Merriman moved that the message be printed, and the lost sheet added in the form oi a rider ; but subsequently altered his motion to placing it within bracketsMr. O'Brien seconded the motion. Mr. Fitz Gerald said,—Sir, I conceive that this is the first, and therefore the proper occasion, for me to address some observations to the house on the subject of his Excellency's message, which has been read to-day. I deeply regret to say that the question which has been brought the \ house is one affecting character ;—and if I were to allow this first occasion to pass without at once taking notice of the charges contained in the address, I should deserve to forfeit the estimation of my friends, of the public, aud of this house. Sir, that is not Colonel Wynyard's message. It is not the message of that gentleman with whom I have been on terms of confidential communication for several weeks. If we had a responsible minister in the house, I should know whom to make responsible for that language: but as we have not, I shall deal with it as a message from his Excellency's present advisers, be they who they may. Sir, I shall not go into the subjects referred to in this message more than is absolutely necessary; but I cannot avoid taking this opportunity of protesting- against it as the most unconstitutional proceeding which has yet been adopted. A step which appears to me to involve almost the annihilation of all responsible government whatever. But leaving that question — a question which will require at the proper time the calmest deliberation —I shall merely express my own deep regret that any one should have advised his Excellency to a course which, if this house do not guard itself by great dignity and discretion, may end in bringing the Officer administering the Government into direct personal collision with this house. Sir, I can hardly find language to express what I must think of those advisers of his Excellency who could exhibit such dastardly cowardice as to scveen themselves under the personal and private opinions of his Excellency from the responsibility it was their duty themselves to assume ; whatever evil may come of this 'crisis, I am certain the bouse and the country will hold myself and my colleagues absolved from the consequences. *I "ill treat the address then as a Queen's speech, as the speech of life Ministers, not of the Crown itself. And I will first remark

that it descends into personal conflict with members of this house, and not only directly, but its intention seems to be to damage by insinuation, by imputing motives. Now, there was no necessity for this speech at all. We resigned our offices, we had a right* to do so; what should prevent his Excellency calling others to his Councils ? Major Greenwood rose to order. He appealed to the Speaker whether it were proper to go into the matter of the address on the question of printing it. Mr. Fitz Gerald :—Sir, I am speaking to the question of printing the address. lam not prepared to say that I shall vote for its being printed. There may be matter in the address "which would entitle me to express doubts on that subject. lam not prepared to admit the principle off baud that the house should receive such an address, especially after the vote it came to the other night. 3Y[ajor Greenwood rose to order again. Mr. Wakefield rose to order. He put it to the chair whether a member was at liberty to introduce any question he liked into a debate. The Speaker said a member was at liberty to introduce any matter into a speech by way of argument in support of his view of the question before the house. Mr. Forsaith rose to make one observation, but sat down on being called to order. Mr. Fitz Gerald :—I am somewhat surprised, sir. at the interruption I have experienced, especially from the hon. member for the Hutt, who is himself in the habit of exhibiting no ordinary degree of irritability under interruption ; but, sir, I am still ."more surprised at the interruption of my hon. and gallant friend (Major Greenwood) when I commenced by saying that the question before the house was one involving character, and must be met without delay. The interruption therefore is one which I never heard of in any assembly. Sir, after we resigned, as I was saying, I made a statement of the reasons which led to that resignation. Since then, this address comes down from his Excellency. It is not an address, it is of the nature of a party or debating speech, it makes statements conflicting with those which I have already made ; it therefore demands a reply. And if I did not reply, I should be utterly unworthy from this time henceforward of the position I have hitherto held in the estimation of this house. Sir, I have only been able to run in the most hurried manner through the address which was read to-day. But, however long it may take to concoct a case, (hear, from Mr. Wakefield), it does not take long to vindicate a character (loud cheers). I will not go into the matter of the address more than is absolutely necessary, but I must notice some points. The address says—"His Excellency resolved to comply with the wishes of the house limited by the condition, that he" would give effect to the principle only so far as he cpulddo so constitutionally; that by the Constitution Act the same validity was given to Royal Instructions as if they had been part of that act itself; that.in the discussions in the house the constitutional force of those instructions was admitted by everybody; that he was led to believe that those instructions absolutely precluded him from establishing ministerial responsibility in a complete form, and in particular by forbidding him to disturb any tenure of office derived from Her Majesty's Sign Manual until he should receive from Her Majesty express directions or permission to set aside appointments made by herself. Then, I ask, why were we not told so ? Why were we told that the Executive Government Bill might be passed withsut reserving it for the approval of the Crown ? The only person who has ever taken that line of argument was the member for the Northern Division ; he opposed the bill on those grounds. Mr. O'Neill—l opposed it. Mr. Fitz Gkhald :—Yes, but not on those grounds. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Forsaith) was the only one who took the ground that the present holders of office could not be removed under any circumstances without reference to England. Sir, I declare most positively that nothing like the statement here made was ever heard by us. It is as new to me as to the child unborn. This is not the same opinion as that in his Excellency's first letter to me, which he says contained the terms of our undertaking office. It is a wholly different statement. It is a statement of a much more distinct and emphatic

kind. That letter put it as a thing undesirable that the present holders'of office should be disturbed until instructions were received from home. The position in the address is wholly different, for it states an absolute impossibility legally to disturb the tenure of those offices. The house must recollect that the language of the letter is modified by subsequent facts ; by the adoption of the Executive Government bill without the condition of reserving it, and by the resignation of the Colonial Secretary, who is included in those whom the first letter says it would be undesirable to disturb. Sir, the message goes on to say that his Excellency made us at once fully acquainted with the limits of his power as regards actual holders of office. Now I appeal to my colleagues whether this is anything like a fair statement of facts. They know that the tendency of all our conversations and all our meetings was. to relax, the terms of that original letter. Sir, I have a great difficulty in proving this, because I do not wish to depart from the ordinary rule of not repeating in this house private conversation with his Excellency, unless by express leave ; and whilst I say that, I think others ought not to take an advantage in doing the same thing. The message says : His Excellency supposed us to concur whhout qualification, without reserve in the above view. For the reason I have here stated, I am debarred from entering into the question how far this is contrary to the fact. I will simply say it is so. I have a right to say that. There must be some strange misunderstanding by which such words cau have been put into the address apparently for mere party political purposes. The next point is, that on the 29th of June, the ministers asked the Officer administering the Government to exceed the arrangement by adding to the Executive Council a member of the Legislative Council who might represent the Government in the latter body. Why we did precisely and actually the contrary. We acceded to that course as a last resource; but in the first instance we expressly advised that his Excellency having said that he would not admit four members into the executive council, he could not retract from his word, that it would weaken the Government to do so. What we did advise was this: that the Attorney-General should leave the chair of the Legislative Council, where he had run to earth, and that he should, as -was the duty of Her Majesty's Attorney-General to do, take part in [helping to carry the measures of Government through the legislature. He would

not do that. He said he would rather give up his Attorney-Generalship than his Speakership, but that was what we advised. (Mr. Wakefield : " in writing?") (Mr. Weld : "yes, in writing.") Yes, we gave a memorandum on that subject. We agreed that a fourth member should be added, but the advice did not come from us originally. Again, the address says, that at the beginning of last week we had oral communication with his Excellency, shewing that " we were discontented with our position," and were desirous of some change. Now, this is a peculiarly worded sentence ; it seems to suggest the inference that our object was to turn the old officers out of the Government merely in order to get their places. Mr. Wakefield—(" hear, hear, hear.") Then if that be intended, I say that a meaner und baser insinuation was never uttered. (Mr. Wakefield—"order, order.") Why, Sir, it is notorious ; we accepted office as a burden and a trial, not as a pleasure. 1 cannot help being carried away somewhat by my indignation in repudiating such an imputation—and from such a quarter—that we wished in an indirect manner to supplant others in order that we might occupy their room. But I pass to the next assertion—that it was not until Saturday the 29th July, that any precise intimation of the new desire of Mr. Fitz Gerald and his colleagues was conveyed to the Officer administering the Government. Now, that was a day on which a meeting of the Executive Council took place nt my request, in consequence of several conversations I bad had with his Excellency, in which I had stated to him fully our difficulties. The tendency of this statement, combined with others in the address, is this; they seem to be made in order to prove—there is no mistaking the intention —that we, having the majority in the house, sought to use that majority to coerce his Excellency into a course he did not approve of. The message says, on that day we were requested to state our wishes I precisely in writing, and on Tuesday, the Ist, we sent the memorandum, which calls on his

Excellency to establish Eesponsible Government, or to expect that we would resign. That his Excellency received that document with"' surprise, as he-bad never before in any precise ' manner been informed- of our difficulties ! Heard with surprise, sir! Why lam at loss to know how to treat such an assertion.

Mr. Wakefield rose to.order; the hon. gentleman has not been quoting from the address • but words of bis own.

Mr. Fitz Gehald -.—Sir, I am quoting from notes I made of the address, which I have hurriedly taken ; but I will read my own. words first, and then the original, and the house cun compare them. [Mr. Fitz Gerald read the passage at length from the address.] Well, I admit the words of the original are larger and grander; but the house will perceive the meaning is exactly the same as that which I quoted. (Cheers.) Sir, I wish the hon. gentleman joy of any advantage he may have gained by ihe interruption. The meeting referred to on the 29th July, was not the first time by many days, that his Excellency was informed of our difficulties. A matter of surprise that Memorandum ! Why, I've talked the whole question over for two or three hours at the Executive Council. I had talked it over with his Excellency several times before. We told him that circumstances had changed; and the moment we became aware of those circumstances, we found there was a danger of not being able to carry on the Government, I went and laid the case before his Excellency, with the greatest reluctance, but with the greatest openness. Then the address speaks of the "alarming, not to say, threatening," passages of our Memorandum. Alarming they were ; they alarmed us as much as they did his Excellency: but the view we took of the question, and of our position, we laid fully before him. We saw dangers in the distance, and, as it was our duty, we told him of it at once, and now this is distorted into a charge against us, that we tried, to coerce the Governor. Sir, I am really loath to dwell on these questions longer—it is a personal matter. I can only explain it by supposing that his Excellency has been grossly deceived by some one. I know not whom—we have no responsible minister now. I wish we could hold some one responsible for it ; but I say by some one, who has had the immeasurable baseness to poison his Excellency's mind. It was not from ambition we took this duty ; we had worked hard, and struggled hard for the service of the colony and for his Excellency; and had he trusted us, and had his other advisers been men of great minds, capable of perceiving the necessaries of the times, I say we could—l myself would have made him the greatest Governor in the empire. Ido not say this from vanity; but I ask the house, would it have been nothing, if, in a colony like this, which since the time of its foundation, had only been known to the English Government by the incessant complaints, and petitions, and remonstrances of the colonists; would it have been nothing that for the first time a Governor should have arisen who -would have elicited one unanimous burst of loyalty and satisfaction from the North Cape to Stewart's Island ? I will mention one other point— one more charge against us; so small, that I am amazed his Excellency could permit himself to be represented as condescending to such a charge. I mean the manner of our resignations. That my hon. friends resigned first in the morning, and that I did not resign till a meeting of the Executive Council in the afternoon, when I resigned because the resignation of my colleagues had not had the effect of making his Excellency give way to ou r wishes. Sir, it was a mean, tricky, and contemptible mind that could have put such an idea into his Excellency's head. I am quite sure it never occurred to his Excellency himself. I will tell the house what occurred. The address has omitted to mention the main point, that we represented we could not cany on the Government with any weak point; in our position it would have been impossible Why, the Ygnr first man to trip us up, would have been lite hon. member for the Hutt. Unlesi we harlK strong case, we could never have encountered the species of opposition which that gentleman offered. A sort of opposition which I have never before seen. Had we, indeed, met with generous confidence; had those promises been fulfilled which the lion, gentleman made, at the commencement of the session ; we might have done something to avoid this resignation : but in the face of such an opposition it would have

bejn insanity to have attempted to go on. Sir, Ijvas the last who came to this conclusion. "^.y colleagues resigned almost against my ad.be. I even then did what I could. 1 went to his Excellency and told him my colleagues had resigned. I said I would do anything I could to carry on the business of the country ; that I would do anything I could for his Excellency, without sacrificing my own consistency. But when I found at the meeting of the Executive Council that there was really no hope of my being able to form a government in which the country would have confidence, I said it was useless for me to remain. I can only deeply regret that such a misconstruction of my motives should have been put into his Excellency's mind. Sir, there is but one point more to which I will allude; it shows the policy of this address, and how it has changed from the former decision of the Government. The address says that an Act for constituting the Executive Government on the new basis must " of course" be reserved for her Majesty's assent, according to the provisions of the Constitution Act. I have only.to say that this is a direct contradiction of the opinion given by ths Attorney-General on this point. Sir, I hope I have not exceeded the terms of decency and propriety in the observations I have thought it my duty to make upon the address read to us this afternoon. I have tried to make a distinct separation between his Excellency in person and his Excellency's advisers. And Ido most earnestly hope that even, notwithstanding this address, this house will not permit itself to be dragged, by intrigues, into personal collision with the Representative of the Crown. [To be continued in our next.]