GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Lyttelton Times, Volume IV, Issue 187, 9 August 1854, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[Debates continued from our last Number^ HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Saturday, June 3rd. The house met at 11 o'clock, the Speaker in the Chair. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. Macandeew to move on Friday, the 9th June, — For a return shewing the gross profits of the Colonial Bank of Issue; also,'the gross expenditure connected therewith since the commencement, also, the amount of its notes in circulation on the 31st December in each year, and on the 30th April, 1854, the amount of coin in the coffers at these dates, and the amounts invested and where. Mr. Rhodes to move on Friday, the 9th of June, —• For a Select Committee to enquire as to what steps have been taken with reference to the erection of a Lighthouse at Port Nicholson, to enquire as to the most practical and speediest means of erecting the same, and to report to the house. Committee to consist of Messrs. Revans, E. G. Wakefield, Porter, Mackay, Macandrew, and the Mover. Mr. Merriiuca'n renewed his motion for Returns" from the Resident Magistrate's Court; to be brought forward on Wednesday the 7th of June. Mr. GLEtmiLt, to move oh Tuesday, the 6th of June, for " Returns showing the reason why Crown Grants have not been issued for the district of Taranaki." Orders of the Day. responsible government. Debate on Mr. Wakefield's motion was renewed in Committee of the whole house. Mr. Sewell said, —-That according to the •usages of the House of Commons, which at present guided this house, he believed he was entitled to recommence the debate adjourned from yesterday. He was glad of that adjournment, because it had given him, and no doubt other lion, members, an opportunity of considering some of the questions raised in ths course of debate,' and particularly some difficulties of a legal and technical character submitted to the Committee. He could not undertake to say that he had given to a matter so important the full consideration which) its importance entitled it to. He must be understood as offering only hasty opinions, such as could be formed in the short time which .had elapsed since yesterday's debate. The questions raised by the resolution before the Committee Was of great importance. The house was asked to take on itself in some measure to check and control the head of the Executive in the choice of its Executive Officers. It circumscribed the choice of those officers by proposing to limit the organs of Government, to some extent, to persons possessing the confidence of the House of Representatives, one or more of whom should hold seats in that house ; and the question was, whether in addressing the head of the Executive with that object, the house was going beyond its legitimate functions. The question resolved itself into two points—the first broad ajid general, whether there be any thing in the Constitution Act bearing against the introduction of Responsible Government as a permanent principle of action ; the second, whether there be anything in the constitution of the present Executive officers to prevent it. As to the first point, several suggestions, in the nature of doubts, had been thrown out, —loose, vague, undefined^ unspecific, difficult to grasp, and not in any precise shape to handle. He agreed with the hon. member for the Wairarapa (Mr. Revans) that when such doubts were raised, particularly by members of the legal profession, those who raised them ought to assist in clearing them away. Nothing tended more to distract and impede the course of business than such doubts. He would himself endeavour to avoid throwing any additional doubts into the consideration of the question. Was there any thing in the Constitution Act bearing against the principle contended for ? Whether Lord Grey or Sir George Grey may have expressed opinions against it was perfectly immaterial. We had to look within the four corners of the Constitution Act itself. The degree of control which the house might exercise over the Executive departments of Government, depended on their control over the public expenditure.

If the Governor or the Crown were the sole judge as to that expenditure, the question as to the choice of persons would rest with the Governor or the Crown alone. But if the house had control over the public purse, ii might throw away doubts, and not scruple to assert its right to judge how the right of appointing certain Executive officers should be exercised. The Constitution Act reserved a civil list for the exigencies of the public service. If that civil list had been absolutely reserved to the Crown, without control by this house, then it might with reason have been contended that the , house Was going out of its province in meddling with its selection of Executive officers, ',;which would be in that case in the Governor's discretion. The Constitution Act was very precise on this point. The 64th section reserved a civil list according to the schedule to the act. The 65th section expressly enabled the General Assembly to alter that civil list, except as to the sums reserved ; for native purposes, and the salaries of the Governor and the Judge, as to which any bill was to be resetve'd for the signification of the Crown's pleasure. It was clear, from this that the Constitution Act intended to place the establishment of the General Government under the control of the General Assembly. He thought it would have been better if the question' had been discussed on those broad and general principles,' of some of those smaller doubts raised in the course of [debate. But he would endeavour to clear away even the pebbles which lay in the road. There was no doubt the principle asserted by the proposed resolution might interfere with the present Executive officers y but that was not a necessary consequence. All which was asked was that the Governor would take means to place this house in its proper relations to the Executive Government. There were various means for attaining that end—some of which might not displace a single member of the present Executive Government. It sometimes' happened in England that members of the; Government had not seats in Parliament, and then arrangements were made for them to obtain seats. That might be done in the present case, and if the policy and measures then proposed were agreeable to the house, all difficulties would be at an end, every thing would go well. The house he was sure would, as he would himself, as far as possibles give support and confidence to a Government under such circumstances. On the other hand,'if the present holders of office stand aloof, insisting on their vested rights, that might compel another course : but there did not appear to beany reason why the house should not address the head of the Executive with a view to bringing about the harmony desired. That no doubt might touch the tenure of the present, holders of office. Had they a right to do so ? If there were a lion in their path, then let them retire themselves. He had given a hasty examination to the past and existing state of the law. It might be useful to the house to consider its exact relations with the Executive Government. That would have a bearing on many questions which might come before them. The act of 1840 enabled the Crown to constitute a legislative council for the colony—to make laws for the peace, order and good government of the colony, subject to instruction from home. The Crown constituted the executive government, and the Governor was authorized by the Crown to appoint an executive council. There was no civil list reserved by that act. No doubt the Crown relied on the absolute dependence of the nominee legislature. There was no need in such case of reserving a civil list. The need of a civil list only arose when the control of the public revenue passed into other hands. Under "the instructions of 1840, the Governor had the power of suspending public officers. The act of 1846 remodelled the whole constitution of the colony. Under the act of 3840 the colony was one, and the acts of the Governor were required to be done by the advice of an executive council appointed for the whole colony. Under the act of 1846, the colony was divided into two provinces, and executive councils were appointed for each province—but there was no executive council for the whole colony. The Goveinor-in-chief might travel from one province to another, and was to administer the government of the whole in his own person. The executive council of each province was to consist of certain public officers for each province, to whom others might be added. There was power in

the Governor to suspend public officers, and to fill up vacancies, subject to confirmation at home. He imagined that the present executive officers were appointed by warrant under sign manual, not by patent, but they were in the dark as to the mode in which they were at piesent constituted, and the house might have to obtain information on that head.—Under the act of 1846,' the principal executive offices of Attorney-general, Treasurer, and Secretary, were provincial only, not general. Previously those offices were general for the whole colony. So soon as the act of 1846 was proclaimed, in May, 1848,'' the division of the colony into provinces took effect. The Civil List then became provincial, the public officers became provincial. Indeed there was no revenue available for the service of the whole colony, and there were no officers for the whole colony. All the revenue after deducting the charges of collection, was made provincial; and out of the revenue of each province a civil list of £6000 a year was reserved to provide for the public service. The act of 1846 continued partially iv operation up to the passing of the Constitution Act. The Suspension Act of 1848 only suspended certain parts of the Constitution of 1846. It did not, suspend those parts which related to the provincial civil lists, and provincial executive councils, —these continued up to the passing of the Constitution Act. He need scarcely dwell upon the necessary connection between public offices and the means provided for their payment. The latter was the substance. He supposed no one would desire to retain office without payment. The act of 1846 provided by means of Provincial Civil Lists for the payment of Provincial public officers. The Constitution Act never contemplated such an interregnum as had actually taken place; and it continued the means of providing for the public service by new enactments., Sweeping away the old Provincial institutions and establishments, it created new means of providing for the public service. It created a new Civil List—but how ? Why from the revenue to be raised under the acts of the General Assembly. When such a revenue should be created—-then, and not till then, there would be a Civil List. These considerations seemed to lead to conclusions which might sweep away all difficulties. He did not think matters would come to that point; but it would be well for them to see their strict and full rights. If he were right in these views, it would rest with the General Assembly, after calling for an account of the past revenue, to pass a measure creating a revenue—whereupon the Civil List would come into effect, subject to be dealt with (except as to the reserved subjects) as the Legislature should choose. There seemed no reason why a Bill might not then be brought in to effectuate their present objects. Those who had a right to say what the emoluments of a public officer should be, had a right to say under what conditions the office should be filled. " Cujus est dare ejus est disponere." He trusted he had succeeded in satisfying the house as to the legal difficulties, and had disposed of the hobgoblins which had been raised. Getting rid of these legal questions,- —was the proposed resolution wise in point of policy ? He thought it was: it was always well to test a principle by its extremes. At present they had the principle of irresponsible Government tried to the very extreme. Not only was there no government asking for the confidence of the house—but there was not any means even of holding communication with the Government, excepting through the cumbrous machinery of messages, and transmission of Bills, and other ceremonial forms. If the house were to go on as at present, and as it seemed it might do to the end of the session, the sooner they were sent back to their homes the better. They were doing no good. He had remarked one subject in his Excellency's speech—the suggestion of Bills to be brought in by individual members. It had been already effectively noticed by the hon member for Lyttelton—no Bills had been brought before them by the Government, it seemed left to them to bring forward their own. They were like hungry guests invited to a banquet, but they were waiting for the dishes,—nay, not merely that, but they were to be their own purveyors and their own cooks. He feared that they might prove as bad legislators as they certainly would be bad cooks. What the house wanted was a more regular and proper way of proceeding. Crude and hasty Bills brought forward by individuals under uo responsibility would

result in measures productive of disastrous consequences. Far better, as the honourable member for the Wairau (Mr. vVelcl) had said, do nothing at all. In England, all important measures affecting the general interests of the country were brought forward under ministerial responsibility—they were put into form and carefully prepared by responsible persons conversant with the business. Only in exceptional cases private individuals were allowed to bring such measures forward. By that practice the evils he adverted to were avoided. If they could not do so, far better abstain from legislation. He for his part would so abstain. If there were to be no dinner set before them, let them wait to the end, say grace, and go • away. He repeated his entire concurrence in the resolution. He begged, however, that the house would not lose sight of the alternative. Honourable members who had thrown cold ■water on the resolution seem to have forgotten one important fact, which could not be left out of sight in this question —he meant the existence of the Provincial Councils and Provincial Governments. He had heard from the hon. member for Lyttelton (j\ir. Filz Gerald) a prayer concurred in by the hon. member for the Waimea (Dr. Monro) —a. prayer for the unity of the colony. He believed they all concurred in that prayer, and desired to maintain that unity. Their wish was to form one great united colony—not to break up into six republics. But there was only one means by which thai undesirable result could be averted—namely, the establishment of a strong general Government —one respected by, and acting in harmony with, the Provincial Governments, in order, that when needful, it might effectually control them. What if they should go back to their respective provinces and tell their constituencies that they had failed in their object—that their appeal had been refused—and the Government had determined to carry on its affairs irresponsibly. The inevitable result would he, if that state of things could not be altered, that they would be content with their Provincial Governments ; and if the General Executive Government alienated itself from the representatives of the vsrhole Provinces, the colony might break up into six small disunited independent republics. He concluded by entirely concurring in the resolution before the Committee. (Great cheering.)

Major Greenwood rose and said—The importance of the question now before the house renders it impossible for me to give a silent vote. While there is no member of this house more staunch than myself in favour of Responsible Government as the basis of all good government, or, in other words, the only form under which people obtain complete political freedom ; still, in its application to the existing state of things in New Zealand, I foresee difficulties which, if I did not point out, I should neglect the duty which I owe to the constituency which, sent me here as their representative.— Firstly, then, I must remark that in the total absence of distinct parties, advocating different broad principles of policy in this house, I do not see how any two or three honourable members in it are likely continually to command majorities on grand questions, which must necessarily come before us. On failure, therefore, they must go out of office, and then the difficulty arises, as to who is to succeed them.— Again, if formed, the new ministry may be out next week, and we might thus have twenty ministries in one session. Again, it would, I think, be impossible to find members from distant Provinces whose circumstances would allow them, under the uncertain tenure of office, to neglect their ordinary avocations in order to remain at head quarters which the position of members of the Government would necessitate. The selection, therefore, would be confined to those members representing the particular Province of the Seat of Government, and consequently we should have ministers all from one Province, and naturally—although perhaps unknown to themselves— entertaining provincial prejudices,legislating for all the other Provinces. Now we have heard constant precedents brought forward regarding Canada, the West Indies, and the Cape of Good Hope, These precedents are very good in their way, but the real question before us is whether the present state of New Zealand is identical with that of those colonies as to render these precedents of any particular value to us. I am rather inclined to doubt that the various forms of Government obtaining in those colonies are perhaps well cal-

culaled to meet the particular wants and circumstances existing in them—l hope and trust, as I am a firm advocate for a strong and good government —and no government can be strong and good which is not supported by public opinion ; —but our circumstances may be, and I believe are, different', and may require a different course of action to meet them. There is another question, too, upon which I cannot be silent. By the address of his Excellency the Officer Administering the Government we learn that in the Province of Auckland the white population amounts to 11,000 souls, being more than one-third of the entire white population of the whole country—and that these people have exported produce this year to the value of £125,000, and that 777 vessels have been actively employed upon their waters. A glance at the statement of his Excellency will show the importance of this Province as compared with any other; yet, as they are represented in this house, the inhabitants of Auckland are reduced to a state of political insignificance— representing, in fact, a constant minority on every question which may affect conflicting interests between North and South. That grand questions may arise in which their immediate interests ma}' differ, I imagine there is no doubt: and that when those questions do arise, four or five smaller Provinces will be found to unite to swamp the voice of the principal Province of these Islands I believe there is as little doubt. Under the existing state of things, [therefore, and the peculiar position of the Provinces, and the various circumstances under which they were formed, I do not think that the important Province of Auckland has sufficient representation in this Assembly. I have made these remarks because I believe it to be my duty to my constituency to do so; and I trust .that this house will acquit me of wishing to imply, in the smallest sense of the word, that the honourable members of the South would at any time make improper use of their majority to the injury of the North. On the contrary, I believe that they most conscientiously wish fairly, impartially, and justly to perform the duty to which they have been called. This conviction, however, does not alter my opinion as to the fact of the disadvantages under which Auckland at present labours. Rather, however, than support no measure at all, I shall be inclined to support the motion of the honourable member for the Hutt, trusting that hereafter the difficulties to which I have alluded may be remedied by the sense of justice and impartiality which I believe actuates the collective intelligence of this honourable house, —and, as yt appears to me that some little omission was made by the lion, member in the very able exposition of his views with which he favoured us yesterday, I would beg that honourable member to explain to this house the view which he takes of the manner in which the practical operation of Responsible Government will affect the local interests of the respective Provinces.

Mr. Wakefield:"l will take"the pleasure of the house as to whether or not I shall now respond to the call which lias been made by the lion, member. The call is a very rightful one, and lam bound to respond to it; but I should wish to take the sense of the house whether I shall do so now, or shall postpone my answer till the conclusion of this debate (cries of " Now ; go on.") Bowing to the decision of the house, 1 will commence by repeating that the call is a very just one —and my only regret in responding to]it arises from the fact that I am compelled to trespass once more on the house. I am not surprised at the call. The subject is one which ib in everybody's mind. It has been brought before the public this very morning in an article in a public newspaper, so ably and temperately written as to deserve the respectful attention of every member of this house. In that article the question which has just been put to me by the hon. and gallant member is asked at greater length and with more particularity. I am therefore not wholly unprepared for replying to it on the present occasion. Sir, I will begin by stating my own view of the true meaning of the question. The question before the house is, not as has been stated by the hon. and gallant gentleman, with great courtesy, how the recognition of the principle of Responsible Government will affect the special interests of the several Provinces ; but, although the hon. gentleman was too courteous to put it in that form, the real question is how that principle will affect Auckland. I say Auckland, not viewing it only as a Province, but as one-half, and even,

for the sate of illustration, as the more important half of this colony. It is necessary tint S Committee should consider this question fairl not denying but at once acknowledging tlfi differences which exist between the north ir,,i the other parts of New Zealand. There ha existed differences. There have indeed existed feelings of jealousy, of rivalry, and even of W tility. But it is not to those differences that I now allude. It is rather the geographical and economical differences that I would touch upon We from the South have found upon our arrival here, and I speak the expressed feelings of most of them when I say that we have been surprised to find, peculiar features in the natural constitution of the country for which we were unprepared. We find it blessed with means of production and enjoyment which have been denied in other Provinces. I may allude to the hundreds of miles of water-road affording facilities for the transmission of produce to market which could not be secured to any other Pro-' vince by any outlay of hundreds of thousands-^ i might almost say millions of pounds. A comparison, for example, of Wellington with Auckland will show that the expenditure of one million of money would not open up so much fertile land for occupation as that which is already accessible in this Province by means of smooth water communication. This is one great distinguishing feature. Another is the faro-e amount of the native population, and the gre^at means of production afforded by them arising from their industry, which, so far as I have been able to observe, much surpasses the industry of the natives in other parts of these islands. These constitute differences in economical matters; but the latter point involves also social and political questions—considerations of policy of the utmost importance, which must affect the whole of New Zealand, but which can only be determined by a reference to facts observable in this part of the colony. I could notice other marked distinctions, but it is unnecessary. And I am the less disposed to proceed because I am loath to imitate what has been done before—that is, to apply to any one province expressions of flattery "to a degree amounting to what may be termed cajolery. It is remarkable, Sir, that persons in authority havealways found the spot on which they happened to be at the moment the finest part of Few Zealand. When they were at Wellington the magnificence of its harbour and its central position placed it in such'a position of superiority as to entitle it to become the seat of the General Government. When they got to Nelson, it was not quite certain but that Nelson, having higher tideSj having facilities for the construction of dry docks, had higher claims to that preference. lam not sure that such flattery has ever reached so far as to have been heard by my hon. friends from Qtago. They have never come within the reach of it. Nor has it perhaps reached even so far south as Canterbury. The lion, members for Taranaki at all events have never received the assurance that Taranaki is suited for the seat of Government on account of the advantages of its harbour. Sir, I notice these things, not in order to flatter the north, but because a friendly recognition of the differences between north and south is an essential basis of all sound policy for the government of this colony for many years to come. I am anxious that the hon. members for the north should know that these opinions are not put forth for this occasion. They were not formed since my arrival here ; they are the result of careful enquiry and deliberation ; and they have been expressed in public before. It is necessary that the public of Auckland should understand that those opinions were formed some time ago. I will therefore for a time trouble the house by reading a declaration by myself of similar opinions in the Provincial Council of Wellington so long ago as the 22nd. February last. They were uttered on the occasion of a debate on a bill for enabling the Superintendent to attend in his place in this house as member for one of the electoral districts in that Province—a bill, the disallowance of which by irresponsible authority has prevented one of the most eminent political minds in the colony from assisting at our deliberations :— " Before sitting down he would briefly notice the remarks of the hon. Secretary with regard to sentiments which were reported to have been uttered by a member of the Auckland Provincial Council, Mr. Powditch, whom the hon. Secretary described as a confidential adviser ot

the General Government. He (Mr. W.) trusted and believed that no such views as those attributed to Mr. Powditeh were entertained by the Administrator of the Government or his advisers ; and so he should continue tobelieve until satisfied to the contrary by unmistakeable evidence. At present he was aware of no evidence which supported the lion. Secretary's assumption. He would take the opportunity of expressing a fervent hope that means might be 'adopted for putting an end to rivalry and jealousy between the north and south of New Zealand. As one of the southern representatives in the General Assembly, no object would be more earnestly pursued by him than that of 'helping to reconcile the north and the south, '-whose differences had been made productive of injury to both. Doubtless there were questions on which the north and south might differ, such as that of the seat of Government; but he was persuaded that all such questions might be settled by the operation of the principle on which alone differences in public affairs were ever put an end to —namely, that of compromise. He believed that in politics there was no more unwise course than to insist on having the whole of one's own way. He declared thus

publicly, so as to be responsible for wliat he said, that he would never be a party to any injustice towards the north, and that he would cordially concur with their special representatives in such legislation by the General Assembly as would satisfy their desires without being unjust to the rest of New Zealand. They were approaching a most important crisis in the affairs of the colony, which would only take a

happy turn in proportion as the principles of ' justice, moderation and mutual aid were sin•cerely adopted by the representative body as respects the distinct interests of the respective provinces. His own opinion was that if the . House of Representatives met in that spirit, there would not be found any opposing interests among the provinces, but that each would

obtain what it wants, and all would be satisfied

He had been tempted to seize the first good opportunity of expressing such views, as those of one member of the Assembly ; and he was convinced, after careful enquiry on the subject,, that in uttering them, he spoke the opinions of the southern members generally. That was the expression of a general opinion. I admit that general expressions are not worth much. We have an example of this in the amendment of the honourable gentleman, who admits, generally and in the abstract, all that we desire, but who denies it all in practice. .(No, from Mr. Forsaith). Yes, Sir, the hon. gentleman's amendment, goes to this—to postpone sine die any application of the principle for which we are contending. It is like the conduct of two persons who are quarrelling, who are persuaded to admit generally and in the abstract the wisdom and propriety of forbearance and Christian charity—but who request in the meantime to be allowed to fight it out. I will not confine myself to general expressions of opinion ; and therefore if the Committee will allow me, I shall read another extract which goes into particulars. On the 6th March a public meeting of the electors of Wellington was held—not the electors of the town, but of the whole province. The meeting was called to obtain from the members of the General Assembly some declaration of the views with which they were about to proceed to the first meeting of the Parliament. Upon that occasion, the following sentiments were expressed by myself. " Mr. Duncan had spoken of the Southern members of the house of Representatives as a body distinct from those representing the north of the colony. He (Mr. W.) trusted ,'that the ■ distinction would cease when they all met together at Auckland. New Zealand had long suffered from jealousies and differences between

the North and South—-jealousies and differences which he believed might for ever he put an end to by a strict observance of justice to the North -on the part of the Southern members, fand by ' deliberate painstaking on their part to aid in , the satisfying every reasonable want of "the North without injustice to the rest of New Zealand. As a sample both of the Icind of ,- the justice towards the North, and of the satisfaction" of Northern wants to which he liad alluded, he would mention two particulars, but merely by way of example. V There could be no doubt that the North, knowing the South to have a larger majority in the representative body, was very much afraid of

not receiving justice at their hands. Now he, (Mr. W.) declared for his own part, that if a proposal were submitted to the Assembly, for relieving Auckland from the share of the Company's debt which had been so unjustly imposed on that Province, the measure would have his cordial support. There was another point on which Northern settlers felt deeply because it deeply concerned their most vital interests. They were.' cabined, cribbed, confined,' hemmed in and stifled, because of the non-extinction of the native title in the land which surrounded their settlements. There was no point on which the Northern community felt so strongly as this—none that was of equal importance to them. As a remedy for that grievous evil they desired—nine-tenths of them .anxiously desired —that private individuals should have the liberty to effect (purchases from the natives on their own account —such purchases to be afterwards confirmed by authority. He (Mr. W.) was fully aware of the objections to that course; no man was more deeply impressed with the sense of the difficulties of the subject; but he felt bound to declare .that rather than see colonization stifled as it is now in the North, if no other means of laying open the country for settlement could be discovered, if the Government should continue to be so feeble or careless, or otherwise so incapable as to leave that Province without land for the progress of colonization, then he (Mr. W) should be ready to give a favourable consideration to the plan for which the Auckland settlers now desired a legislative sanction. No man had been more strenuously opposed than himself to what was called " land sharking"; but when, in 1539, the Colonial Office deliberately refused to put an end to the practice by undertaking itself the systematic extinction of the Native title in New Zealand —when it came to be a ques.tion between land sharking on the one hand, and no colonization of New Zealand on the other—he had, in conjunction with others, his colleagues in the New Zealand Company, become an enormous landshark, and the same principle would guide him now. If it should turn put that the North could not otherwise obtain that sine qua non of colonial advancement-—plenty of land for the progress of settlement—then he would cheerfully join with the Northern members in supporting some law whereby the people themselves should be permitted to do what their Government would not do for them. Having exhausted the topics on which other members bad spoken, and availed himself of their indulgence in allowinghim to mention some others, he would now conclude by congratulating the meeting on the important fact which would be conveyed by the usual means to the Government at Auckland and to the Government at home,- that they were quite unanimous in the expression of their opinions and objects; that a meeting which represented all parties in that Province, were resolved, as one man, to obtain as soon as possible the natural and essential consequence of representative institutions, and to pursue that end by the most peaceful, prudent, and conciliatory means."

I have referred to two examples only which I was anxious to bring before the attention of the Northern members, of matters on which they feel strongly, and on which I was prepared to concur in opinion with them on the principle that identical legislation for North and South would often be most unjust. I take the opportunity of informing the hon. members for the North how it was that I was led to pay serious attention to the distinctive features of this Province. I am bound to say, and I have great pleasure in stating, that I owe this advantage entirely to the hon. member for the Bay "of Islands, who visited me before I left the ship in which I came from England, and who has never ceased with all that energy and perseverance with which we know that he carries on any task that he has undertaken, to impress upon me the necessity of considering the distinctive features of the North, with a view to making such arrangements as its peculiar wants shall be satisfied with. Sir, I will offer some brief explanation of the means which appear to me suitable for accomplishing- that object. In doing so, I would call the attention of the Committee to circumstances in the government of Great Britain and of British North America, out of which a satisfactory policy for New Zealand may be evoked. I will assume that the people of Auckland desire the unity of the Colony, if it can be preserved without injury to themselves, —that whatever views they may

have of seperate Government, those views have relation to their own special interests, and do not arise from an abstract desire that New Zealand should be cut up into distinct portions. Look at the manner in which legislation is corried on in the Imperial Parliament as regards England and Scotland. These two countries, differing widely in circumstances and interests, have long subsided as one, politically, under a legislative union—under .one. Crown, one House of Lords, one House ,pf .Commons, one Executive and Legislature. Now, it is a matter of fact that legislation in the British Parliament with reference to measures solely affecting Scotland, is carried on almost exclusively by Scottish members. The English members generally abstain from interfering when Scottish measures are under discussion. But this is not considered sufficient. Scotland has its separate minister. In every cabinet there are one or two persons who have special charge of Scottish measures and Scottish interests. And this system works perfectly well. There are no complaints from Scotland. There is not in the empire any people more loyal, or more attached to the interests of the country. I must admit that at the present moment a sort of agitation is going on in Scotland for a little more special government within the General Government, at the head of which is Lord Eglington, known even in this country for having been the promoter of a grand theatrical tournament some years ago. The agitation I allude to is what may be called a sentimental agitation; but it deserves to be looked at with care, because it was an important subject for us at this moment. It is a call for a greater equality between the Lion and the Unicorn, for some means by which the Lion and the Unicorn, being two different substances, shall occupy exactly one arid the same place in the Royal arms. At all events it is a claim quite as reasonable as a claim which was made in the Provincial Council at Wellington by an hon. member who indignantly protested against a bill which was introduced by my hon. colleague the member for the Hutt, for the suppression of thistles. The hon. gentleman, a Scotchman, viewing the measure sentimentally, looked on it as a serious insult to his country, and in the spirit of the Scottish motto, "nemo me hnpune lacessit," warned my hon. colleague that he had better take care what he was about. But putting aside this temporary and sentimental agitation to which I here allude, it may be asserted that Scotland is content with the arrangements by| which legislation is carried on under the Imperial Parliament. This is a fact of great importance. I will take another example—that of United Canada. In 1840, the two colonies of Upper and Lower Canada were united under one Legislature and one Executive. The united Legislature first met in that year. It was found'"immediately that there was clashing legislation. Measures were proposed agreeable to Upper Canada, and vice versa. Proposals advntageous to Lower Canada were made, which were opposed to the interests of Upper Canada. I will mention one example. The bulk of the people of Lower Canada are Roman Catholics. And they were among the most, if not the most, happy people in the world. The population amounts to between 700,000 and 800,000. There are amongst that large number only three gaols—one at Quebec, one at the town of Three Rivers, and one at Montreal— and even these are generally occupied by English, Scotch, and Irish, rarely by French Canadians. [With the exception of these three gaols, there were, when I left Canada, no other means of putting criminals in confinement in the whole country. In the district with which I was particularly acquainted, there was about 20,000 inhabitants. Amongst them there was but one magistrate. And during the 13 months which I lived amongst them, that magistrate was never once called upon to perform a judicial act, except that of putting his name to documents requiring his signature. lam justified therefore in saying that they were a moral and religious people. But according- to their religious views, Sunday concludes after vespers, and they consider themselves at liberty to do on Sunday evening-just what they would do on any other day. And especially they are accustomed to spend Sunday evening in shooting, particularly during the time when birds of passage are passing through the country. Well, an Upper Canadian member brought in a game bill, which contained, amongst other clauses, one for putting a stop to shooting on a Sunday.

The people of Upper Canada liked the bill— but the French Canadian members first looked blank, then began to make wry faces, and at last explained to us that the measure would prove very unsatisfactory to the people of Lower Canada. It was immediately proposed, and agreed to, that the measure "should apply to Upper Canada only. The debates which occurred at that time led to the adoption of the same principle in Canada as that which guides legislation in England and Scotland. And it has been followed by the best possible effects.- Canada has ever since been eminent for its loyalty and forits attachment to legislative union, under which it enjoys all the institutions of England, and, not the least among them, that which we are endeavouring to obtain—Ministerial Responsibility. I turn to practical considerations. How is such a policy to be carried out ? Suppose that His Excellency should accede to our desire—suppose that after consideration of the subject, after mature deliberation and consultation, after all those processes by which such changes as these are usually effected—his Excellency should determine on the formation of a Cabinet, enjoying the confidence of the people; I said yesterday that if his Excellency adopted such a step, and called upon this house to find men with whom he could cordially co-operate, we ought to comply with his wish, and that if we did. not; we should put him entirely in the right, and ourselves entirely in the wrong. Now, I apply this doctrine to the hon. gentlemen the members from the North. If that state of things should come about, it will be their part to recommend some person or persons to his Excellency, as persons enjoying the full confidence of the northern province, and who shall be prepared to take charge of northern interests. The claim which they make oh me, that I would point out some policy to meet the difficulty that has been stated, entitles me to call on them to reflect on this matter—to call on them to be prepared with some recommendations by which; the policy adopted in Great Britain and -in" -Canada shall be carried out here. The Cabmet in Canada is composed of a representation of both interests—those of Upper and those of Lower Canada. There were, after the Union, and I believe still are, two Attorney-Generals in the Cabinet, and there were two Colonial Secretaries. In consequence of the interests of the two provinces having gradually blended, I believe there is now but one Secretary. But this is certain, that a portion of the Cabinet still represents each division of the colony. In England, where these matters are not so new, Scotland is ordinarily represented by one member in the Cabinet—the Lord Advocate. We are, some of us, old enough to recollect Lord Melville having been the member for Scotland in the Cabinet, and how large a share of the patronage of the whole country he was able to command for that portion of the country, it is well known. In fact, he handed over the greater part of India as a field of patronage to Scotland. I say to members from the north—Surely you can find some gentlemen enjoying your confidencesome one or more whom you could select to occupy the position of Minister, on the understanding that he is to be charged with the care of northern interests. If that plan were adopted, you might be sure that no injustice would be done to you by the proceedings of the General Government. But this question has been thought to involve another—that of the seat of the General Government. I will not attempt to blink this question. The only difficulty I have in deciding it is, that I believe the question to be one which is unripe for decision. Ido not think that members for the south generally have come to any determined conclusion upon it. I regard it as a postponed question, and for that reason I am really incapable of stating any positive view on the subject, liut still it is my duty to state, because lon<>- reflection has led me to the conclusion, that the General Government of New Zealand—a Eesponsible Government—not a miserable despotism which might be in New South Wales or anywhere else— ought to be in a more central spot Indeed, Sir, this abstract proposition has not bee,, denied. Ibaveseenit reported thafthe a-mh has been admitted in the Provincial Council of Auckland. No one ever seriously disputed it. When you ask me, then, what do you mean to do ? I answer, it is a question winch the course of events will settle; and I believe myself that the course of nature will settle the question in favour of seating the

General Legislature in some central spot. But that such a change will be the consequence of responsible government I utterly deny. It will be the consequence of the operation of right, !; and justice, and sound policy ; it will flow from the necessity of either making such a change, or dividing the colony into two parts. I know there has been a wish already expressed for the division of the colony. It has been brought before the local legislature of Auckland; but does any one for a moment believe that the concurrence of the home-Government will be obtained to* that proposal ? I am thoroughly convinced it will not be acceded to for a moment. Parliament has been led to divide this colony into six parts, of which the largest and most important is the Province of Auckland ; and Parliament has bestowed upon you such powers as were never before given to subordinate governments in the words of the Constitution Act, rt to make all laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Province." Except in so far as yon are joined to the other Provinces by federation and for federal purposes only, you have got local government with power to make and execute your own laws. With that exception, you have got the separation which has been talked of. Is it then"to be supposed, that after Parliament has assented to this as a great experiment, it will be disposed to try another experiment before this one has been fairly tried ?' Moreover, it is not to be forgotten that the Provincial Governmehts have been set upwith inadequate means of satisfying the desires of the people; and that improvement in their means of action will render them more efficient. I can only conceive two objects which Auckland can have in view in desiring to be excluded from the New Zealand confederation. One reason for wishing a separate Government would be that the Government from home might still be maintained, Seeping up a large establishment' and expending money ; but remember that henceforth this expenditure will be only of your own money. There will be no more parliamentary grants. That is at an end. The only extra expenditure of money on the General Government at Auckland wouldbe the money of the other Provinces. Is Auckland to be guided by such a consideration as that ?'• (Cries of "No, no," from the Northern members.) No, of course, I do not for a moment believe it. You can well afford to let the most central spot have the central expenditure. lam not speaking of military expenditure; for I should say that, under present circumstances, and, so far as I can see, for a long time to come, the head-quarters of the troops ought to beat Auckland ; as long,probably, as there shall be any military head-quarters in the colony. Now then, if you don't want more expenditure, what do you want but the name of the thing ? No doubt that is desirable. That there is a wish for it is evident by what occurred in North America. None of the great cities in America could bear to have the seat of the central government fixed at any other. — There was a certain feeling of almost feminine jealousy on the subject. It is one which I do not myself share; I can hardly understand it; but it is certain that it exists. And to such an extent did it exist in America that an arrangement was made whereby a small state was created to be the seat of government in the middle of a great swamp, for the purpose of satisfying all parties. And now, after seventy years, the site of the city of Washington affords the best snipe shooting in the United States. For my own part, my present residence is at Wellington; but I am ready to live anywhere ; and! should not care if the Governor were seated in some new place, if provisions were made for the necessities of life. But I will repeat, I do not think there is any strong feelings amongst the Southern members as to the exact spot where the Executive Government should be placed, nor even to the necessity of an immediate settlement of the question. However the General Legislature, as distinguished from the Executive, must meet at some central point in the colony. Sir, I have detained the house much longer than I intended ; and I know other members are anxious to speak. I have only endeavoured to express my own opinion. But I would once more assure those hon. gentlemen that these opinions are not put forward for this occasion, and that, so long as it shall be in my power to take part in the government of this country, so long I will faithfully endeavour to carry them into practice. [7b be continued in our next.]