GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Lyttelton Times, Volume IV, Issue 187, 5 August 1854, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[Delates continued, from our Extra Number of Wednesday, Aug. 2nd.} Drt. Mo.nro said he felt indebted to the honorable gentleman who had just spoken for having explained his views on the opposite side of the question. The easiest way to solve any matter was to hear only one side of the argument, but that was not the course most consistent with the discharge of the duty they had toi perform, and he trusted that on all occasions members who differed from the views expressed by, the majority would state their dissent and the grounds of it, and, he might further be allowed to say, be able to support them with the same ability which had characterised the speech of the gentleman who had just sat down. It was his intention to vote for the resolution before the house, but he did not wish to do so without making-.some explanations as to the sense in-\vhich he understood it. .The resolution was in some measure vague, but extremely comprehensive; it affirmed a great principle, but when brought to bear upon their conduct and practice, it might be taken—tp._infeanjthe affirmation either of a complete system of par-~ liatnentary practice, or something very much less. The first thing he would ask the house to consider was this: did what was called Responsible Government flow as a necessary consequence out of the Constitution Act or not? Now he had no hesitation in saying that he entirely concurred with the hon. member who had just sat down in thinking that it did not. The honourable member for the Hutt had in his usual happy way explained to the bouse the A B C of the British Constitution, and he was certain would agree with him that the fundamental letter of the Constitution, the A of the alphabet, was this, that the monarch is an irresponsible personage, a truth embodied in the well known maxim that the king can do no wrong. And not only is he irresponsible, but practically as regards the business of legislation he is inactive, the responsibility and conduct of parliamentary business resting upon his ministers. This latter maxim our witty and epigrammatical neighbours sought to embody in the saying le rot regne, mais. ne gouverrie pits', a saying the perfect accuracy of which he would not pause at the, present time to enquire into. Starting then from the point that the British parliamentary system requires an inactive head, lie. would ask was this what he found in the New Zealand Constitution Act ? Very far from it: the 55th clause of the act empowers the Governor to transmit drafts of laws to either house, not, be it observed, mediately or in the name of others, but directly and in his own name. The 56th clause empowers him to send back, to the Legislature, with amendments, any bills which it may have passed: and the 57th clause.directs him in exercising the power of the veto to conform to instructions transmitted by .her Majesty;—three conditions of active interference in legislation which in his opinion were entirely opposed to the supposition of ah inactive and irresponsible head. The existence of a large- civil list might also be pointed to, -as placing a power in the hands of the Crown which it does not possess in England, and rendering it impossible for the" House of Representatives to exercise with the effect of paralysing the machinery of government that great constitutional power possessed by the Commons of England of stopping the supplies. Ju-om these different considerations it appeared to. him |that Responsible Government did not by any means flow as a natural consequence out of the Constitution Act. And it therefore must he thought be admitted, that if the people of this colony demanded parliamentary government, they were asking, not for-'a thing which the law hath conferred upon them, but for a concession. But now, having as he thought established that Responsible Government did not. follow.necessarily upon the Constitution Act, he would enquire if there was anything in the Act which forbad its being put into practice and he could not see that there was. The Act invested the Representative of the Crown with certain powers, but all that was required to give effect, to the practice the principle of which was embodied in the resolution, was:, that the thrown should forbear, should not push its powers to their full limits. And this was precisely what was done in England. He recollected reading some remarks by Lord John Russell on «ie ..British constitution to this effect, that the

powers possessed by the different branches of the supreme authority in England were such that if pushed to their full limits, nothing but confusion and paralysis could result. If the Crown or the House of Lords thought proper constantly to exercise the power of its veto ; or if the Commons were constantly in the habit of refusing the supplies, the action of the British government would be utterly discordant and ineffectual for any useful purpose. The British .government is only carried on by a very large exercise of forbearance and in the spirit oi concession and compromise. He would now consider the matter in a very different point of view. Having disposed of the technical bearings 6f the question, he would now ask, was it expedient upon general grounds, or for the welfare of thje colony, that parliamentary government should be introduced ? The conclusion he had come to after giving to the subject all the consideration of which he was capable, was this, that parliamentary government in the full sense of the term was in the present circumstances of the colony quite impossible, and for the following reasons. It was his belief that the formation of party was of necessity antecedent to the for_mj,ti.On_of_ajjar.ty_Cro<'ornmcnt. - Supposing the Head of the, Executive willing to establish it, to whom is he to apply as the strongest party in this house, and what gentlemen, he would further ask, could be expected to take upon themselves the great labour and responsibility of office and expose themselves to all the buffetting which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Forsaith) had with so much truth depicted as a necessary consequence of office, while still in a state of uncertainty with regard to the views which the majority of members might entertain upon subjects of the greatest importance. The hon. member for the Hutt had made light of this and treated it as ah objection of very trifling weight; but in his (Dr. Monro's) opinion it was a very serious, though not perhaps an insurmountable difficulty. But the chief obstacle to^ the iiitoduction of party government was this, they had not a sufficient number of men of station, independence, and leisure,.as candidates for public office from motives of honourable ambition. He had heard some gentlemen say that whatever you had in England you might have here; in kind, if not in degree: that whatever existed in a. large and wealthy country, you. might reproduce in a certain ratio in one infinitely smaller and thinly peopled ; but he could not assent to this. He held, on the other baud, that for the production of certain effects, a certain mass of materials was required, and that it was quite as reasonable to expect competition and low prices in a little village where there was only one tradesman of each sort, as it would be to expect pto carry a full system of party government into effect in.this country. The consequences which he would apprehend from this attempt would be, that the strife of party would become the strife of individuals, and that the service of the state and the welfare of the colony would be made subordinate to considerations of personal ambition, or still worse—of personal animosity. In all party government! such influences operate more or less,-but here from the smallness and close contact of elements, they might be expected to display themselves with a nakedness and intensity which appeared to him incompatible with the existence of a government which should above all things seek the welfare or obtain the confidence and respect of the people. He could not, however, shut his eyes to the fact that there was a great want of completeness in the present machinery. He saw indeed the Legislature constituted, and they all knew that there was an executive body in existence : but he saw no means by which anything like an understanding or harmonious relation was-to be established between them. He had always regretted that the plan had not been adopted which prevailed in some other countries of giving certain ministers of the Crown ex officio seats in this house. Had this been the case there would have been at all events Representatives of the Executive here, who could have explained the views and intentions of government, and give any information which members might have desired. It might be said that this could be still done in the way of address and reply ; but what a clumsy mode of conducting business this is; and not only clumsy, but hurtful, for he thought every one would admit that a matter which might possibly be settled by five minutes' talk across a table, to the satisfaction of both parties, might, under the present sys-

tern, afford the ground work for a correspondence that would last fire weeks, and bring on a collision with the Executive. Had the plan which he had referred to been adopted, he did not think the question of " Party Government" would have been raised at the present time ; it would have been the means of establishing harmonious relations between the Legislature and the Executive, it would have been a natural transition from the old to an improved order of things ; and as the country gradually developed itself, there would have been no difficulty in gradually altering and expanding the system until without violence or sudden shock it grew into a complete condition of Parliamentary Government, which, in the hands of our race, and under circumstances not otherwise unfavourable, he believed to be the best form of Government. But he returned to the fact that there existed no intermediate machinery ; and foreseeing from this nothing but the unfortunate consequences, lie considered that they were requiring nothing that was unreasonable in requiring the creation of some effectual organ of communication, and further with a view to avoid misunderstanding and discord, in affirming the principle that tue Executive should hold itself in subordination, to, and consider itself the exponent of the clearly determined views of the majority of the legislature. In voting then for the resolution, he did not mean to commit himself to any details which might arise within the scope of its comprehensive terms, and wished himself to be considered with regard to ulterior steps free to vote as he thought proper; but he had no objection whatever to vote for the resolution before the house in the sense which he had just given it. He would only further say, that whatever might be the immediate consequences of this step, whatever might be the form given to the practical working of their engine of government, there still would be a very wide margin left for the exercise of prudence, discretion, and forbearance. Unless these qualities should be invoked to exercise a very large influence upon the conduct of members of this house, it would be impossible to anticipate anything but failure, collision, and injury to the colony. These things will certainly happen if every one is determined to push his own peculiar views to the utmost limits. But this is not a practice which is in accordance with the spirit of British statesmanship ; and while they were seeking to assimilate their institutions to those of the mother country, they should not overlook that forbearance, love of fair play, practical good sense, and where necessary compromise of opinion which is characteristic of the working of the British constitution, and which gives youth, vigour, and elasticity to a constitution which cannot be comprehended by nations who cannot approach it in the same temper, but which owes at least one-half of its success to the spirit iv which it has been worked (cheers.) Mr. Wakefield wished to say one word ■without delay ou a point mentioned by the lion, member for the Wairaea (Dr. Monro.) The hon._ member thought that the house ought to particularize the course which they desired his Excellency to take. Now he (Mr. W.), in framing the resolution had carefully avoided that mode of proceeding. He had deliberately avoided the use of any but the most general terms. This was done in order that if the Governor should adopt the principle of the resolution, his Excellency should be entirely unfettered with respect to the mode of giving effect to the principle. It would, be (ilr. \V.) thought, be not unwise, but improper, to prescribe anything to his Excellency with regard to the mode of exercising his prerogative as the sole depository of executive authority. At any rate, he had been guided by that opinion in framing the resolution. °

Mr. Hakt said that some allusion having been made to the legal position of the question, it might be convenient shortly to refer to that point. And first, it was not the opinions of those who had aided in passing the Constitution Act; not the expressions used in correspondence relating to it, which were to regulate the interpretation, but the words of the Act itself. It was not for the house, or for him as a member of that house, to determine the point; should the resolution proposed be one which the Officer administering the Government could not legally carry out, it would be for the legal advisers of the government to point out the fact. Certain clauses of the Act did provide means of communication between the Governor and

the house differing from those in ordinary use under what is termed responsible government, and this it might be contended would by a species of affirmative denial exclude the interpretation that under the Act the Officer administering the Government' would be at liberty to alter the Constitution of the Executive Council. But the first clause of the Act repeals all former charters and instructions affecting1 the government of the colony, excepting so" far as they are not repugnant to or would not interfere"with the operation of the Act, and it may be contended that any such mode of carrying on the business would be repugnant. He threw but these views to shew that a legal question might be raised, and upon this point he supposed the government would not come to a hasty conclusion. A dread had been expressed that in the event of the introduction of responsible government, the minority would be tyrannised over by the majority :— quite the opposite of what he would have expected to be the effect. To what end would hon. members conscious of being in a minority, address the house, unless it was by the publication of their opinions to operate upon public opinion, and thereby react upon the majority. Mr. Fxtz Gerald said,—Sir, I shall commence the very few observations I have to make to the house by replying to the legal point adverted to by the hon. gentleman who has just sat down. The point has been noticed by two honourable gentlemen .who spoke previously, but the question arising from it has acquired additional weight from the authority of the learned gentleman (Mr. Hart) whose legal ability entitles his opinion to respect on a point of law. The point seems to me to be simply this ; that because the Constitution Act provides certain modes in which the Governor shall upon special occasions communicate with the House of Representatives, therefore it is to be inferred that the Act did not contemplate and is opposed to any other means of communication between the Executive and the Legislative bodies. Sir, the honourable gentlemen ■who have taken this view appear entirely to have forgotten that in England there are many occasions upon which it is the constitutional practice for the Crown to communicate with the Houses of Parliament exactly in the same way as the governor is directed to communicate with the houses in this colony ; that is directly by speech or by message ; and yet in England that does not supply the want of, still less forbids the existence of a machinery for keeping up ordinary and daily intercourse between the Crown and the House of Commons. In example I may .say I saw in a paper only yesterday that the Crown was about to send down messages to the Houses of Parliament to acquaint them that war had been declared against Russia. That announcement could of course have been as well made by the minister in the House, but it appears to be a constitutional usage that upon such an occasion the Crown shall address the Houses directly by message. Great stress has been laid upon the 56th clause of the Constitution Act, providing that Bills may be r etuvned by the government with amendments to the Houses. That is the constitutional mode, practically it never is done. And so in this case, though his Excellency would have, constitutionally, the privilege to return amended bills; practically those amendments would be made at the suggestions of his advisers in the passing the bill through ihe houses. Again with regard to the 57th clause it has been argued that because his ExcelleUCV is bound to act in tho disallowance of bills under instructions from England, therefore he cannot exercise that prerogative, as in Englaud, by the advice of responsible ministers. No, doubt, Sir, there is a difference between England and a colony, there is this difference, that whilst the colony has a superior imperial legislative authority above it, England has no such superior. Of course it is necessary for the integrity of the empire that England should exercise a control over her colonies in all matters relating to the empire at large. And it is just for the purpose of enabling the Crown to exercise such control that, I conceive, this clause has been introduced, but it is really idle to argue that in these days, and after such a constitution has been granted to the colony, because such a power of interference exists on the part of the home government therefore it will be exercised in matters of purely local interest to the colony. But were it so, let me remark, even were the governor

owinc to instructions from home brought into collision with the colonial parliament, I tlo not see how that collision would be affected lor better or for worse by the fact of his having responsible advisers in the house. As to me 58th clause to which reference has been made, its operation seems to me to have been wholly misunderstood. I take it simply to set lortn the proper forms and manner in which certain acts shall be performed, to direct that the solemn act of disallowance of a bill Dy tne Crown shall be notified to the colonial legislature in a certain formal manner. The clause does not apply to the point under consideration. I will now make a few desultory observations upon some of the remarks which tell from the honi gentleman the member lor the Northern Division of Auckland (Mr. Forsaith) for he has taken the strongest parkin the opposition. 'Mr. Forsaith. No, not opposition to the principle. Mr. Fitz Gekald. Well the amendment does not oppose the principle, but the hon. gentleman's arguments if they are worth anything at all would go to this, that ministerial responsibility ought not to be introduced, intp. the government of this country. His first argument was that although it succeeded in England it did not follow that it would succeed in a colony. Certainly that like effects will follow from like causes is natural; and the onus lay on the hon. gentleman to shew why they should not do so —but he did not this, and he forgot that the argument was, not only that the plan succeeds in England, but in "every British colony where full representation has been established. Next Sir, the hon. gentleman quoted Sir George Grey's opinion as indicated in a despatch to Earl Grey, that the officers of the Crown should hold permanent appointments. My hon. friend who spoke last (Mr. Hart) completely answered this remark showing that Sir George Grey's opinions were utterly valueless as assisting the interpretation of the Act; it being wholly opposed to all legal ideas, that a law is to be expounded by the'previously expressed view's of.its supporters. But I go further, and I say that if that opinion of Sir George Grey's goes for anything at all, the conclusion to which it alludes is exactly the contrary from what the hon. gentleman" wished to deduce; for if the Act were framed in accordance with Sir George Grey's suggestions, as has been said,it is remarkable that this one suggestion of having permanent officials has not been introduced into the Act. Shewing that the home government and Parliament advisedly rejected the proposition. The next argument was deduced from a report by the Committee of the Privy Council for trade and plantations upon the subject of granting a constitution to the colony of the Cape. Sir, I remember the publication of the paper in question in England and the estimation in which it was held. The Select Committee which it emanated from was composed of, I believe, three individuals^ of whom Lord Grey was one. Mr. Wakefield— " and Sir James Stephen j another." Mr. Fitz Gebald—and Sir James' Stephen, the standing under-secretary for the colonies, another. It was in fact the recommendation of the colonial office under another name. And Earl Grey's opinions on colonial government are now so well known, and so well appreciated, that I am only amazed that the honourable gentleman should have quoted them uuder the impression that any weight whatsoever would attach to them. Next we are told—you must not embarrass his Excellency. His Excellency you 'admit has clone a igveat deal for us, it is very ungrateful to embarrass him. Sir, I protest against this assumption that what we desire would in any way embarrass his Excellency. But if it come to this that we are absolutely compelled either to embarrass his Excellency, or to prolong the embarrassment of this house, I confess I think it is our duty to adopt the former alternative. But there is no concealing the fact, that the real embarrassment was created when this bouse was convened, and that that embarrassment is unavoidable unless the difficulties in the way of its proper working be removed. But the "next argument was a very remarkable one, it was, that it was necessary that an irresponsible executive must be maintained to support the minority. Mr. Forsaith—no.

Mr. Fitz Gerald—;l took down the words at the time, and I understood the honourable gentleman to say that it was necessary that the political influence of the minority should be maintained. Now that is just to say that without Responsible Government the political'influence of the minority would be maintained. Why it is exactly to destroy that monstrous injustice —the denomination of the will of the minority, that all the colonies have been struggling and that this Constitution was given us to effect. Sir, I will not go into the question as to the natives— Mr. Retaws-t-I wish you would. Mr. Fitz Gerald. Well, then, I will make one remark. At Canterbury we have no native difficulties, but I have often heard there that matters were quite different in the north, that the real difficulty of New Zealand was the native difficulty. I enquired, as I came here, at Wellington, at Taranaki.at this very place, the centre of Native difficulties; and I find but one opinion, namely, that if the natives and settlers were ouly' left alone, there was not the slightest chance of any disagreement between them. I have come to the conclusion that this native question is the most monstrous bugbear that ever was created. And now turning to the o-eneral question before the /house, is it not obvious that the present difficulties'iri the way of getting through business are insuperable? I met a gentleman in the street a few' days ago, who remarked to me that we had adjourned for a rather long time. I said, "it is no matter, for we have got nothing to do." " Nothing to do," he said, "what do you mean ?" I said, "we have no bills before us, government has not sent down any bills." "Oh," he said, "you must draw your own bills." Sir, I confess I started at such an announcement. This is a responsibility. I for one was not prepared for. And yet I cannot but recollect that in his Excellency's speech, although a good deal is said about a policy to be pursued, not a word is said about any bills to be sent down for our consideration. Is it possible, I ask, for such a system as this to continue, or that the subject of Responsible Government can be merged or shelved? Indeed when we .think of the origin of this necessity as set before us by history it would seem as if we had been inverting the ideas of responsibility and representation. We have been speaking as though responsibility were a necessary consequence of the representative system, whereas really the latter is rather a means of enforcing the former. For was not the responsibility of the executive to the will of the people always asserted in English history? The barons asserted it at Runnymede. Crudely and cruelly it has been asserted in many a succeeding age, by the decapitation of many a monarch's favourite, and the present system of popular representation, is but the machinery by which tie crude and barbarous mode of asserting resP on' . sibility in olden time is mitigated and adapted to the requirements of an enlightened age. bir, I shall cordially support the motion before the committee, and not only that, but I shall support any step which may arise out of that motion and which it may be deemed necessary tor this house to adopt in order to the practical assertion of the principle which it involves. (Cheers). ■ ■ . Mr. Forsaith again declared he was not opposed to the principle of Responsible Government, but merely differed as to the matter oi time. Mr. Reyans on reflecting on the opposition which had been given to the motion on the ground of a seeming concern for the protection of the natives from oppression by vhe settlers, could hardly refrain from usiug language which might not be proper to use in that house. He'was sure the natives, North and boutn, looked on the settlers as their best friends, tie reoretted also that the question should have been obscured by the legal doubts which liaa been thrown out, he thought that members ot the legal profession at any rate ought not to raise doubts on legal points in that house unless, they were prepared to clear them away. Mr, E. Jkbxixgham Waeefield was encouraged by the kind allusion made to him dj his honourable relative, to offer a few remarks on this occasion. But as he had received vis political education ffrom that relative, and as on the subject, of ministerial responsibility in the government for colonies, his ur» copy-book had actually been that Report 01 Lord Durham on Canada which had been alluded to by the honourable member lor the nu»

as having originated that kind of Government for colonies in modern times, he would not. attempt to repeat, in language which must of..necessity, be less forcible, the arguments and illustrations advanced in its favour. He would confine himself to pointing out one particular class of the evils of irresponsible government, and to reply ing. to some of the abjections advanced against the opposite system by the hon. mover of the amendment. 'He referred to the Governor's power under the 29th section of the Constitution Act of disallowing or allowing laws passed by the Provincial Legislatures, which is an important attribute of the due contralto be exercised by the General Government over Provincial .Legislation. Such a control surely W as —and both in his Excellency's speech and in the various comments on it, had.been allowed to be—an essential part of the policy of a strong General Government, of one which should desire and obtain the confidence and attachment of the people! How was the house of [Representatives to exercise any such control, if an irresponsible Government could disallow Provincial laws of which,the representatives might approve, and with which they therefore would not meddle with if not -.disallowed, or could allow to come into force, by not disallowing, during the recess, such Provincial laws as might conflict with the expressed wishes of the representatives ? It was by no means'impossible that the Government and the House might disagree as to the exercise of this part of the Governor's functions. Judging, indeed, from the past exercise of it, and from the temper of tlijs house, such a result was highly probable. He would cite a few .instances, first, of the disallowance of laws which seemed both legal and desirable, and, secondly, of the allowance of illegalities and usurpations mischievous to .the general interests. The " Superintendent's Absence Act," of Wellington, and the "Empowering Ordinance" of Canterbury have both been disallowed by the General Government. Both these laws contained provisions for the performance of the Superintendent's duties by deputy, in case of his unavoidable absence from his Province. In both cases it was intended to enable the Superintendents, each of whom had been returned to this house by a constituency within his own Province, to attend this first meeting of the General Assembly. At Wellington it was enacted that the Judge of the Supreme Court, at Canterbury, the President of the Executive Council, should perform the duties of the head of the pr jvincial executive. But the General Government disallowed one law, because it thought the appointment of atjudge an improper interference with the Supreme Court, and the other because it thought the president of the Executive council was "an officer unknown to the Constitution." And yet this officer was one appointed strictly in accordance with the provisions of another Provincial Jaw, the " Executive Government Ordinance" of Canterbury, which was allowed by the General Government, and therefore he was as much known to the Constitution as any one of the Superintendents or the very officer administering the Government of the colony. Two very useful laws passed by the Provincial Council of New Plymouth had been similarly disallowed. One was a law for the raising of a loan for the purpose of buying land from the natives, through the medium of the proper officers named by the General Government for that purpose. The reason assigned by the General Government for disallowing the law was, that the object to which it was intended to apply the money raised, was one beyond Provincial jurisdiction. The Superintendent was informed 'that the law would have been allowed, had it been proposed to spend the money in any other way. It so happens that there is no object of such vital importance to New Plymouth as the prompt purchase of land from the natives for the purposes of colonization, and the General Government had no funds avattable: the Province cffered to supply its officers with funds, but was not allowed to take legal authority for raising the money. The consequence had been that the Provincial Council re-enacted the Ordinance, but with a very short space allowed witliin which to raise the loan, so that the second disallowance should not arrive before its expiration ; and when, the General Government having entirely changed its mind, a confirmation very unexpectedly arrived, the term had actually expired. Another law to prevent the spread of " Seab 5' in Sheep was disallowed, because the word "knowingly" had been omitted from the

claus.e.indicting.a penalty on persons driving scabby sheep through the country. The reason assigned was, that natives might unknowingly do so, and ought not, in that case to be. fined. But the very pbject of the. clause. (which had been similarly enacted in similar laws by the legislatures of four other Provinces, without disallowance) was to induce sheep-owners to abstain from any attempt to drive sheep about .without being quite sure that they were clean. And in two of those Provinces at least, Wellington and Canterbury, it was not uncommon to see natives engaged as shepherds and stock drivers. He would now briefly notice two cases, among, a great many known to him, of censurable conduct on the part of the General Government in neglecting to interfere with Provincial laws or usurpations of authority. With all its punctiliousness as to Provincial interference with the Supreme Court,it bad passed over in , silence the appointment, by the mere authority of the Superintendent of Wellington, of so important an officer of that court as a Crown Prosecutor. It had allowed "Empowering " Ordinances or Acts passed by Provincial Legislatures, although those laws invested the Superintendents with powers, formerly held-bj the Governor alone, under many existing Ordinances of the colony, in such a way as to interfere with legislation on many of the subjects expressly excepted by the constitution from provincial jurisdiction. He need only mention the "-Sale of Spirits to Natives Ordinance," the arbitrary powers contained in which, extending even to the power of repealing the whole Ordinance and substituting another in its place, had been by several of these "Empowering" laws conferred on.the Superintendents in .as great a degree as the Ordinance confers it on the Governor. Thus, he contended, had the Provincial legislatures assumed the right to authorise legislation " inflicting disabilities or restrictions on natives to which Europeans would-not also be subjected," in direct contravention of the Constitution Act. And yet this legislation had been in no case disallowed. Many such cases, of both kinds, could be cited, but these few were enough to shew that, in this matter, not only was there no responsibility to the people, but there was no system whatever. The power of disallowance was arbitrarily and irregularly exercised, and the consequences of so desultory and contradictory an interference with Provincial legislation were, to render that legislation uncertain and precarious, to shake the confidence of the people in its value and permanency, and to discourage the exercise of careful and discreet qualities in its development. This house would, doubtless, adopt some kind of system, more or less definite, and founded on some sort of principle, for the control of Provincial legislation. If the advisers of his Excellency were to persist in exercising that control in an undefined manner, or on a wrong principle, how were they to proceed ? how even obtain explanation of the Government's views? He saw, indeed, on the paper, a notice of motion by his hon. friend the member for Lyttelton (Mr. Fitz Gerald) "to ask the Colonial Secretary or other the organ of Government in this house" whether the Government intended to bring in a Bill to provide a locum tenens for any Superintendent in case of his death or absence from his Province. And a very proper question too, if any such organ were to be found anywhere within the walls of the house. If they were to proceed by address and reply on every detail of principle and particular of practice they .should only waste their time, and. probably end at lust hi collision with his Excellency, an event which he (Mr. W.) should not be alone in sincerely deploring, because he entertained as strong a sense, as any honourable member who had yet spoken, of the gratitude which the house owed to his Excellency for his manliness in convening the Assembly, and of its bounden duty to reciprocate his frank offers of cordial co-operation with the house in adopting measures for the good of the colony. Even if the collision should occur with his Excellency's advisers, what would be the inevitable results ? Impeachments, stoppage of supplies, prorogation! the return of the members to their Provinces, a recourse to Provincial agitation, and a lung train of other consequences most lamentable and fatal to the country. The hon. member for the Northern Division (Mr. Forsaith) professed to approve of responsible government in the abstract, but considered it legally impracticable, and thought that preparatory amendments of the Constitu-

tlon were absolutely required. He there proposed to refer the question to a Select Committee. But there could be no better Committee than this one of the whole house, which would, at any rate have to go over the same ground, even if a Select Committee were to be appointed and to present a report for discussion by the house. Let the house, then, discuss the question at once; let all the arguments, for and against, be now produced-; and however long the debate may last, let not the house attempt to proceed-with any other business until this all-important question be settled one way or the other. The hon. member'(Mr. F ; ) had ex-: pressed an opinion that New Zealand was not fit for responsible government, because it was not so populous or important as Great Britain, or Canada, or the Cape. But he -(Mr. W.) could assure him that in the Province of Otago, with a population of less than two thousand European souls andtwo or three hundred natiyes, a Provincial Council of only nine members, and a Cabinet consisting of only two persons, the system of Government had been not only introduced in its integrity, but carried on with complete success; and had even.passed through the ovtleal of a "ministerial crisis" so as reallyto manifest as much decorum, discretion, integrity, and understanding of the principles of British-Constitutional Government, as|though the parties to the various proceedings had been her Majesty, the British Parliament, and the leading statesmen of the British Empire. The hon. member's attempt to deduce the legal meaning of the Constitution Act from the. correspondence of. Governors and Secretaries of State with regard to it, had been so ably and completely defeated by the hon. member for Lyttelton (Mr. Fitz Gerald)that he should only make one remark, on that subject. He was not surprised that his Excellency Sir George Grey had recommended that the principal Executive officers should hold permanent appointments. A close observation during many years of Sir George. Grey!s policy, and a careful perusal of his published despatches, had firmly convinced him that his Excellency was entirely opposed to responsible government, and had therefore strenuously recommended such arrangements as would prevent its establishment. But it was fortunate for the Colony that that proposal, of his Excellency had been neither incorporated in the Constitution, nor even deemed worthy of notice by the home authorities. As to that argument on the part of the hon. member for the Northern Division, which alleged as a reason for denying to the Colony the full consequences of representative institutions, that there was danger lest the colonists should treat the natives with injustice, he felt compelled to exercise the greatest care and forbearance in approaching it; for, earnestly desirous as he was to avoid any breach of that harmony and moderation which had hitherto characterised the house's deliberations, he could not help warning the hon. member that nothing could be more irritating to .many hon, members than the reiteration of the calumny against the colonists of New Zealand, which had for so many years been made an excuse for depriving them of their rights. He trusted that this-charge might not again be brought against them. The greatest cordiality and good feeling had been displayed in the Province of Wellington immediately on the establishment of representative institutions, almost in contrast to the very moderate attachment to the natives shewn by the former Government in its social relations with them. Oue of the first acts of the Superintendent, of Wellington had been to invite the principal chiefs of the Province and all the members of the Provincial Council to a banquet, at which natives and colonists sat side by side, and expressed the most earnest and hearty sentiments of mutual goodwill. And subsequently, also at Wellington, 60 natives dined with 250 of the colonists, and 150 natives, men and women, joined with 400 colonists in a ball that followed, on which occasion none but the most friendly feelings prevailed. There were very many members of that house as earnest in their good wishes towards the natives as any person who had hitherto possessed the power to'do them good, from the Governor downwards; and there were many who entertained views of as much wisdom and forethought towards the attainment, by gentle and easy means, of all the blessings for the natives 'which civilized and free institutions were calculated to confer ou them. As to the tenure of oJlice by the present Executive Officers, he (Mr. W.) apprehended

that there was nothing in it to prevent the establishment of responsible government. Under the Constitution Act, and those parts of the Instructions appended to the Charter of 1846 which remained in force as not repugnant to the Act, it did not appear that any Executive Council for the colony was provided for. Such Councils were provided for the Provinces only, and the Governor had power to make any appointment which might appear to him advisable for the good government of the colony. It seemed doubtful whether the officers now forming the Executive Council were actually the Secretary, Treasurer, and Attorney-General for the colony, or only those for the late Province of New Ulster. And at any rate it was open to them to resign, if necessary, on an assurance of fair compensation. He feared he had trespassed too long on the house, but he could not give a silent vote on this important question, v and he had tried to bring forward points not'touched.upon by former speakers. Mr. Foksaith said, Sir, I must beg permission, before the Honourable Member who was about to rise comes forward to move that the Committee do now adjourn, to offer one or two brief remarks in reply. I esteem it a source of gratification-ratlier ..than acauso fov regret, that honourable members who have addressed the house should have deemed it necessary to make such frequent, and in some instances severe comments upon the opinions I expressed in the earlier part of the day, because it tells me that these opinions were not altogether without point. And as I shall have an opportunity, if • I think proper to avail myself of it, of speaking on this subject again to-morrow, I will confine myself now to one or two of the allusions which have been made. With reference to the remarks of the honourable member for Christchurch (Mr. E. J. Wakefield) relative to the silence of the Constitution on the subject of the Executive, I think, as far as my present information enables me to judge, that he is utterly at fault. He has overlooked the connexion of the Queen's Letters Patent with the Constitution Act. But so far from standing forth as the apologist of the present Executive, I would not even bind myself to observe, in all cases, the recommendation of the hon. member for the Hutt, who, when he has carried his point, would-have the members of this house refrain from instituting any inquiry into by gone acts. I I believe, Sir, that there have been acts of the Executive Government, which, from a sense of duty, I may be called upon to enquire into and condemn. I know it is the duty, as I would fain believe it is the desire of hon. members of this house, in all their deliberations, to divest their minds of provincial prejudices, and to look at each subject that is brought before them in the light reflected on it by the interests of the colony at large. But, Sir, while I hold it to be a primary duty of hon. members to take this comprehensive view, 1 cannot conceive it to be their duty entirely to shut their eyes to the influence which a measure is calculated to exert on any.particular province. And I repeat, what in substance was the whole tenor of my former remarks, that it is my conscientious opinion that there is reason to conclude that the immediate introduction of the important change in the administration of the Government of this colony proposed in this motion, is not legally practicable, and I may observe, by way of parenthesis, that an honourable member on the opposite side, who is also a member of the legal profession, has admitted that on this subject there is room for a doubt, and that if even this obstacle was removed, it would not be expedient, and equally consistent with the iuterests of all the Provinces, without such previous ie-adjustment of the Constitution of this house as would fairly establish the balance of power. Admit this change, Sir, without such previous preparation, and then farewell to the prospect of a community of feeling, and farewell too to the idea of that nationality which it was professedly the wish, as it ought to be the ambition, of this house to establish.

On the motion of Mr. Sewell the Council adjourned, the Chairman reported proceedings, and the House adjourned until Saturday. VThe continuation of this debate tvill be given in our next publication.']