Provincial Council.

Lyttelton Times, Volume III, Issue 151, 26 November 1853, Page 8

Provincial Council.

TUESDAY, Nov. 15th. (Continued from last week.) EMPOAVEBIXG BILL. Mr. Hamilton moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. Dampier objected to this Bill as another proposed variation of the constitution at present laid down for the Provincial Governments by the Constitution Act. That Act committed the Government of the Province to the Superintendent and Provincial Council, both elected by the people. By it, the responsibility of the Executive Avas cast upon the Superintendent in person, and it Avas not intended by that Act that such responsibility be transferred to other shoulders. By the Government Executive Bill, just passed, the exercise of that very discretion imposed by the Constitution Act on the Superintendent, an elected officer, is now transferred to an Executive Council, a non-elective body. This may have been a judicious measure, but he doubted the power of the Provincial Council to give effect to it, as he had before stated. It Avas by the present Bill proposed to sanction the acts of another party, the President of the Executive Government, as the head of the Provincial Government, a sort of Regency Bill,—" That in case of the death of°the Superintendent or his absence from the colony, the President of the Council (an office not even contemplated by the Constitution Act) should be deemed the officer lawfully administrating the office of Superintendent:" and therefore unless some restriction were placed upon this proposition, the President of the Council, not elected by the people, might be virtually substituted for the Superintendent Avhose appointment Avas the result of election. Was this right? The Constitution Act provides that, upon the death of the Superintendent, a new election should take place; which implies a suspension of proceedings in the meantime. The appointment of any one to act in his place, therefore, after his death, would be a contravention of that Act. It might be judicious to have such a provision, but any such variation of the Constitution Act must be made by the General Assembly. Neither does the Constitution Act contemplate the absence of the Superintendent from the Colony. It would seem, therefore, that the General Assembly is the place Avherem such measures should originate, or from whence at least, they required confirmation. He (Mr. D.) would ask the Government if these Bills had been sanctioned by the responsible I opinion of the Crown legal advisers as mea- ! sures which the Provincial Councils could le- I gaily enact? He himself doubted it; that doubt was also entertained by many of his constituents, who likewise questioned the propriety of encumbering the Government of the Province and influencing the representatives of the people, in the Council, Avhilst so small a body by the formation and machinery of an Executive Council partly from that body. The effect of the present Bill was to extend that power ; he therefore opposed the Bill on principle. Mr. Hamilton in reply, would call the attention of the learned gentleman to the fact that the Provincial Council of New Minister bad thought it right and proper to pass an Ordinance similar to this, and if they did not exceed their jurisdiction in so doing, neither could we be supposed to exceed ours. It was very true that the Constitution Act did not give us express power to pass this particular law, but j„ general terms it gave us power to make till necessary laws, and it was avowedly in the contemplation of those who framed the Constitution Act, that the manner as-to howthe Act should be earned out should be left to the colonists themselves, as that was a matter which could not be satisfactorily dealt with h v the Bnt.sh Parliament. This Bill conferred'upon us the benefits which the Canterbury colonists themselves from the first had been demanding -benefits which every other settlement had been so long struggling to obtain-benefits indeed only to be derived from local self-Govern-ment. The learned member professed to he representing the opinions of a constituency. He Mr. H., would remind the learned member that the same constituency had elected him as well as another gentleman now present He would ask what did that constituency See k f or before leaving England.and afterarrivalhere,and loudly clamor for by addresses, remonstrances, public meeting, and Colonists Societies, if it Avere not lor a lull and entire local administration ? This

Bill Avas a legitimate development of the Constitution Act, and not an alteration of it. He should be glad to have the alteration pointed out. With the Central Government removed to Auckland, Aye should be further removed than ever from obtaining a local administration Avithout some such a Bill as that now before the Council. It provided for the proceedings in certain cases being taken by the local authorities instead of necessitating the transmission of every petty matter for the decision of the central goverumeut. It had been universally considered necessary even before Aye obtained the benefits of representative institutions; and the central government had acquiesced in the policy and acknoAvledged the convenience of delegating certain powers to the local authorities, and lioav the acquisition of representative institutions could make this necessity less obvious, he (Mr. Hamilton) could not understand. The Bill Avas then read a second time, Mr. Dampier alone dissenting. Assentients : Messrs. Packer, Cass, Boiveu, Tailored, Cookson, and Hamilton. ESTIMATES. The House Avent into Committee to further consider the Estimates, Mr. Bowen in the Chair. PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. Clerk to Council £100 0 0 Messenger, ss. a day during Session 25 0 0 Rent 30 0 0 Furniture 80 0 0 Adopted. £235 0 0 LEGAL ADVISER TO THE GOVEENMENT AND CKOWN PBOSKCUTOR. Mr. Hamilton said that it Avas thought better to fix a certain sum for laAv expenses generally and legal adviser, and to leave it to His Honor the Superintendent to arrange with some professional gentleman for the performance of the various duties that Avould be required. He Avould move that a sum not exceeding £300 be passed for the office of Legal Adviser and CroAvn Prosecutor. Mr. Packer thought £300 a large sum for this Office. It was certainly advisable to have legal advice, but the Session Avas almost brought to a close Avithout legal assistance, and he conceived that it Avould be better to have advice occasionally as it Avas needed. Mr. Hamilton said that it was not merely for draAving Bills that a legal adviser Avas needed, but also in the daily business of Government. Hardly a step could be taken without legal assistance. It was a great mistake to suppose that recourse had not been had to k'gal advice for the measures already brought fonvard ; His Honor had received the greatest assistance from Mr. Seweli. Before he left for Wellington, he worked untiringly in preparing the Bills that Avere brought before the Council by the Government—the Standing Rules and Orders, for instance, a work requiring a great deal of attention, because no precedent could be found. He thought that a no less sum could be proposed than £200 for advice, and £100 for fees, in cases of Crown Prosecution, &c. This Avas a vote in Avhich we had no past expenditure to judge from; nor could we foresee what amount of crime might arise. Adopted. PRINTING EXPENSES. t Mr. Hamilton moved that the sum of £200 be voted for printing expenses. In this instance also we had no data for fixing an exact sum. It may appear to be a large one, but there had been bills to amend and various forms necessary to a newly established Government, as the old system of accounts Avould be altered and much simplified. He thought next year a less sum Avoidd be required. Mr. Dampier observed that if legal advice were hnd in the first stage of Bills, there would not be so much alteration required. Adopted. SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE. Mr. Hamilton moved (he consideration of a Supplementary Estimate for the proportion of Superintendent's salary from the first of August to the first of October, the date of the estimates. The salary had been fixed exceedingly low, and as His Honor had been actively engaged in preparing for the recent changes since bis election, the Council would not grudge this vote. ° After some discussion, Mr. Dampier observed that no one could doubt that the Superintendent's best energies were devoted to the interests of the Settlement. Me Avas not willing to receive good services Avithout remunera-

tion be made. A sum not exceeding £83 6s 8d including salary for the Private Secretory was then passed. •' MEDICAL DEPARTMENT Colonial Surgeon £150 JNurse, and allowance for boy to fetch Avood and Avater g^ r. l £216 f 7 c. 1 40 l Uf 20 Rations.. -_ Washing .'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.".'.'.*.'.* 12 Extra Attendants m Charitable Aid, Paupers, and"__Vinatlcs 50 £413 Mr. Hamilton said that the duties "oTthe Colonial Surgeon were to attend to the Hospital, newly arrived emigrants, the Police, the Prisoners, Mamies, destitute, sick, and Lunatics, and to supply all drugs and medicines ; be Avould move that a sum not exceedino- £413 be voted for this department. Of this sum £50 would go to expenses attendant upon Paupers and Lunatics. Adopted, after considerable discussion. CORONER. Fees on Inquest j?jo Mileage ..."...."" * Fees and Milage to MedicaVwi'tnesses 10 £2? Mr. Hamilton stated that this office Avas combined with that of Colonial Surgeon ; it Avas a source of loss rather than of gain, the fees being fixed by law, applicable to'the'state of Colonial pr:ces several vea'rs ago. A sum not exceeding £27 was voted for this office. INSPECTOR OF SHEEP. A sum not exceeding £75 was provisionally voted for this office, it being likely to last only for two months under the existing Scab Ordinance. Mr. Hamilton said such protection as Avas now given to stockowners must, for the sake of the Settlement, be continued to them. FINANCIAL STATEMENT. Mr Hamilton said—The Council havinjr completed their consideration of the estimates! he thought it would nut be out of place to make some statement as-to the Revenue of the Province. Government, in drawing up the estimate of the probable Revenue, had been careful to put down only what could be counted on Avith any degree of certainty, and were guided solely by the receipts of the first six months of this year, lhey had not liked to speculate too much on an increase in the Customs, Avhich, however, might very fairly be counted upon now that the settlement was fairly on its legs, and that investments made two and three years ago, were beginning to yield very ample returns. He believed that the year's results Avould shewa larger amount than bad been set down. But it Avas impossible to calculate, even roughly, within £1000, or £2000 of our Revenue. ° He could not anticipate how much of the 3rd net duties remitted to the General Government" would be returned : nothing, therefore, appeared 111 the estimate on that account. Then the £300 at first assumed as a balance to be paid over to the Provincial chest had become a matter of uncertainty till further despatches arrived. Nor could it be slated what would be the result of a general settlement Avith the central Government on outstanding claims. For instance, a sum of £800 was drawn from the Provincial Chest in ISSI. £1700 bad been advanced in 1852 by His Excellency to the Agent of the Association. This, however was expended on roads, and could hardly be considered a fail- debt to press for; as it Avas expended entirely for the public benefit. Nearly £300 had been advanced this year, for a quarter's expenses of the Land and Survey DepartT~, nL at Chnstchurch. In all advanced, say £2,800. His Excellency's despatch, annexed to the Constitution Act, refers to a Circular of the Colonial Secretary of New Minister, Sep. 4, 1851, and published in the Parliamentary papers, lnat Circular stated that the expenses of the Commissioner of Crown Lands would be met by a temporary loan from the Provincial Revenue fund, to be repaid from the first receipts of the Land Fund. Now the Land and Survey Department under the Commissioner had cost nearly, £ 1000. The Province might then ba considered to have unsettled claims for pay-

mentto it, of £3800, of which at least £1000 Avas a good debt, £800 an uncertain one, and £2,000, a debt Avhich could not very well be pressed. Again, Aye could say positively nothing of what Avould accrue to us from the Land Revenues, Pasturage Licenses, &c, having no information, nor having as yet come to any definite agreement with the General Government. The Registration of Deeds also, could not be spoken of with any degree of confidence, one way or the other, as a source of Revenue. In short, for some time to come Aye must remain inconsiderable uncertainty, groping our way along. We might, however, safely take the Revenue at £3900 or £4000 certain. The Customs being £2800, Auctioneers' and Publicans' Licenses, £590. He himself Avas perfectly satisfied of the future of this settlement; it had progressed beyond all others in New Zealand during a corresponding period, nor could he doubt that in another year we should have very ample funds at our disposal. The House then resumed.

Mr. Hamilton moved that this Council, in accordance with a resolution adopted Nov. 9th, approve of the estimates laid before them.

Mr. Packer Avished, before the question was put, to state his views upon the subject. As far as the Estimates Avere carried he saw nothing particularly to object to; indeed many items were very moderate. But he considered the machinery of Government was more expensive than we could afford at present; and he Avas but expressing his OAvn opinion and that of his constituents, Avhen be affirmed that great disappointment Avas felt at the inability of the Government so to arrange the estimates yyith regard to the revenue calculated upon, as to alloAv of a surplus to be applied to meet the requirements of the colony. The roads required attention ; the postal arrangements also Avanted assistance to carry them out; and many other lesser matters Avhich could only be done by Government. But at the end of the Session Aye find that Aye are unable to effect anything of the kind, and the colonists Avill have the satisfaction of having to repair the roads from funds raised by themselves, which they Avill be quite at liberty to do Avithout Government aid. Thus the highly raised expectations are destroyed of Avhat Aye were led to hope Avould be the result of Local Self Government. He supposed, hoAvever, that Aye must rest on the hope that the bright picture drawn by Mr. Hamilton of the progressive prosperity of this highly favoured Settlement Avould be realised, and trust the improvements required will only be deferred for a short period.

Mr. Tancred, Avhile agreeing in a great deal that had fallen from Mr. Packer, must remark that the offices to Avhich the revenue had been applied Avere absolutely necessary for the efficient administration of the Province. The Executive Council had devoted their time to framing and bringing in measures for establishing the Government, and he thought that members not connected Avith the Government should have brought forward measures for roads, &c.

Mr. Hall concurred Avith Mr. Packer that considerably more had been expected from the result of their deliberations than had, as yet, been performed. He had anticipated that more would be expected from the Council than it could, under its present circumstances, perform ; and he Avas anxious that the blame should rest on the right shoulders, viz., the Governor's, who, holding in his hands a large portion of the funds of the Province, had neglected to take such steps as Avould have rendered them to some extent available for roads, and the importation of labour, &c. Although he had questioned several items in the Estimates, he really did not see lioav any material saving could be effected without impairing the efficiency of Government: and he had suggested the only step which the circumstances appeared to him to admit of, viz., to take a vote on account of the roads, so that in the event of any surplus beingdiscovered before the Council again assembled, some works of that kind might be undertaken at once. The plain English of the matter Avas that they required a local Government, but as yet they had not sufficient funds to pay for it. Mr. Hamilton replied that matters had gone so smoothly, the Avay had been so cleared before them, and the settlers had improved their condition so rapidly here, that he thought they had been rather spoiled and wished for too much all at once. None could regret more than he did the state of the roads: he believed he travelled oftener over a Avorse piece of road than most persons in the Province: but even

that was far better than nine-tenths of the roads he had been accustomed to in other parts. As to our expenses, Aye should look at it as a matter of business : nothing Avas ever Avell set going properly till a considerable sum had been spent in first outlay, and "plant." We had done this, and must exercise a little patience. He undertook to say that this Settlement Avas more cheaply governed than any other had been. The most important fact to be borne in mind Avas, that the taxes for the first time in this Province were to be expended in a manner assented to by the representatives of the people. The resolution was adopted. The House then Avent into Committee and adopted the resolutions passed by the House on the 9th November, praying his Excellency to acquaint the Council Avhen the General Assembly was likely to be called together, in order that the Council may be guided in the proper course for them to pursue in the appropriation of the Public Revenues of the Province. The House resumed. ADDRESS FOR THE REMOA'AL OF COL. CAMPBELL. Mr. Packer, in moving this Address, said that, agreeably to the resolution adopted by the Council on Friday last, which he was happy to state was passed unanimously,he begged to move an address to his Excellency in accordance Avith that resolution : he was borne out in the necessity of this measure by one on whose legal acquirements the utmost reliance could be placed, that the proceedings of Colonel Cambell Avould be productive of the most disastrous consequences to the Avhole of the Settlement. There was not a person in the colony possessed of land under conveyances from the Canterbury Association but what Avas liable under some most frivolous pretext to be put to the necessity of vindicating his right to his property by a litigious and expensive process. Proceedings of this nature shook men's confidence, and although they might ultimately substantiate their rights, still the peace and comfort of the inhabitants \\;ere very materially interfered with. Although the author of this mischief met with no sympathy from those Avho took the trouble to inquire into the circumstances, there was a certain portion of the community avlio Avere apt to lose sight of the mischief done .and to fix their attention exclusively upon the misfortunes of him Avho incurred punishment for doing it ; forgetting that a public officer Avas liable to public inquiry and judgment, and that that inquiry became the more necessary in proportion to theinjuryhe was capable of doing (hear). Nojpersonal feelings Avould have induced any inquiry of the sort, but Aye must not be led away Avith that species of morbid sympathy Avhich is often excited at home in favour of the greatest crimiuals Avho, from the very position they Avere placed in, Avere magnified into semi-heroes, no consideration being given to the distressing consequences of their delinquincy—perhaps a child bereaved of its father, or a Avife of her husband, and perhaps a Avhole family reduced to destitution. Thomas Adams, Avhose petition is lying on your table, is but an humble individual, but his interests are as sacred in the eyes of the laiv as Colonel Campbell's, and he has as much right to claim the protection of the public ; and it is the duty of this Council, as far as they have the power, to see that that claim to protection is not disregarded. He (Mr. Packer) Avas satisfied that the Council, as conservators of the public interests, Avould not be deterred from discharging their duty to their constituents and to the public at large by any feeling of this kind, (hear, hear.) Mr. Dampier must oppose this Address. The grounds alleged for this proceeding on the part of the Couucil appeared to be founded entirely upon papers laid on the table Avithout any evidence Avhatever of the facts related, and on Avhich "statements it seemed the Council Avere Avilling implicitly to rely, without investigation. He (Mr. D.) considered that in so serious a proceeding as that of addressing the Governor-iu-Chief to remove a public Officer from a Crown appointment, it would be more consistent Avith the solemn duty they had to perform, that they either themselves first investigated the facts" which constituted the grounds of accusation, or should request his Excellency the Governor to institute such enquiry before they proceeded to condemn the individual, and ask for his removal. It appeared to him, from having read the papers on the table, that they had been in a great measure dictated by partyspirit, and disappointed interest, and Avere not to be relied on as a genuine and true state of

the circumstances, uninfluenced by personal feeling. That an alleged mistaken exercise of his duty by the Commissioner —even Avere it so —upon matters in which differences of opinion might arise, Avould not constitute in itself a sufficient ground for deposing an officer of th» Government Avithout investigation as to the motives. It had been alleged that he had refused information to the Superintendent, and to the Council, but it did not appear that the information sought Avas such as the Commissioner was either bound to supply or culpable for not supplying, Avithout the sanction of the chief Government; and that as his Excellency had not even himself the power to discharge the Crown Commissioner, but upon investigation for alleged misconduct, so neither ought this Council upon the faith of such papers only as those on the table, to recommend his removal from office. He should therefore vote against the Address.

Mr. Hall said that as the motion \va& mere-

ly one for giving formal effect to the resolutions already adopted, he had not anticipated this discussion, but he could not allow Mr. Dampier's remarks to pass unanswered. With regard to the asserted legality of the Commissioner's proceedings, Mr. Hall quoted from memory the clause in the Crown Lands' Ordinance Avhich enacts that the rules and regulations for the letting off the Waste Lands for depasturing purposes, shall be made by the Governor himself, and not come into operation until fourteen days after they have been published in the Government Gazette. In the face

of this, the Commissioner had, ignoring the regulations on the subject already established by IaAV in his district, Avithout giving any authority for his proceeding, issued and enforced an entirely neAV and unsuitable set of rules. This Mr. Hall thought Avas sufficient to prove " disregard of the law." Then Avhen the Council had asked upon Avhat authority he had

acted, the only answer they received was that

he could not possibly furnish the information for a considerable time to come. Either the Commissioner refused to afford information, Avhich, in a case affecting so deeply as that did the interests of the Province^ the Council had a right to ask for, or he really did not at present

know upon what authority he had acted. After

considering all the circumstances of the case, Mr. Hall thought that no impartial person could come to any other conclusion than that Col. Campbell Avas incompetent for the office of Commissioner of Crown Lands, (hear, hear.) Mr. Hamilton' said several considerations had restrained him from taking partin the previous discussion of Friday : nor had he intended to-day to make any observations on the conduct of one who Avas, like himself, a servant of the General Government. But after the learned member for Lyttelton had stated that he did not belieA re information ought of necessity to be afforded by an officer serving immediately under the General Government in questions vitally affecting the interests of every individual in the Province, his silence might be'construed into an acquiescence in the views put forth by his learned friend. He (Mr. H.) considered that an officer Avas not appointed for his oavii convenience, but for that of the public (bear): and that it was incumbent upon him to do every thing in his poAver to facilitate the despatch of public business. Nor could the Government of Provinces be conducted without the fullest information, especially on all questions of Revenue. Now the papers on the table shewed such information had not been furnished where required. He could not admit that an officer serving the General Government Avas therefore exempted from all responsibility toAvards his fellow-settlers in the Province : he must become responsible to them for his conduct, even though be Avould be so inclLeetly only, by appeal to the central Executive. Now he felt assured that His Excellency the Governor understood the matter in this Avay, and fully intended officers directly under his orders, to co-operate in every Avay with the Provincial authorities for the good of the service. A Circular had been addressed to all Collectors of Customs, expressly instructing them to this effect, and to'afford all information and returns asked for by the Superintendent. He had acted upon these instructions to the utmost of his power. There Avas no secrecy required here, and he Avas assured thai similar instructions must have been issued to the Land departments; and he considered that any neglect to comply with them, should not pass unnoticed by those Avhose duty it Avas to protect the interest of their

constituents (hear, hear.) Nor need there be any hear that his Excellency would not thoroughly investigate the subjects to be brought before him before taking any decisive steps.

Mr. Tancred said that he disagreed with those of the preceding speakers avlio hoped or expected anything like an investigation into the proceedings of the Commissioner ou the part of the Governor. He hoped that the delay Avhich such an investigation Avould involve, "would not appear necessary to His Excellency. The competency or incompetency of such an officer as the Commissioner of Crown Lands, Avas a question so nearly affecting the most vital interests of the Province, that every day which Avas alhnved to pass, with such a Commissioner as the present one, at the head of affairs, might entail the most serious consequences. He Avould therefore hope that Avhat Avas plain to every one Avould not have escaped His Excellency the Governor. He hoped that His Excellency Avas not the only person in the Colony avlio Avas in the dark as to Col. Campbell's capabilities. The learned gentleman (Mr. Dampier) had not ventured to assert that the Commissioner Avas fit for his office but merely that it would be hard upon him to be remoA-ed. It was the first time he had heard it maintained that the public interests Avere to be sacrificed to the convenience of private individuals. The learned gentleman also said that the Governor had no power of removal. It happened that in one of the Ordinances under Avhich Colonel Campbell Avas appointed "The New Zealand Company's Land Claimants' Ordinance", there was a special provision made for the removal of this officer, as if the framers of ihat bill had had a presentiment that the appointments under it would require frequent alterations. In addition to this, the Crown Lands' Ordinance provided that "fit persons should be appointed as Commissioners: noAV be believed that no one would be bold enough to say that Colonel Campbell was a "fit" person for this or any other office; so that strictly speaking the unfitness of the Commissioner made the appointment invalid, as he did not fulfil the condition of "fitness" AAdiich Avas made indispensable by the Ordinance. It Avas very well to say thatAvehad only one side of the case before us-, hut vshere there Avere not two sides to a case, and every one in the community had the same feeling, it was a strong presumption that there did not exist another side to the case. It Avas said " Avhere there was smoke, there was fire,"' and so where the unanimous voice of a community proclaims the incompetency of a public officer, it is hard to believe that there is not something in it. He (Mr. Tancred) Avould be delighted to hear that Aye were all mistaken, and that, instead of being incompetent, the Colonel Avas not only perfectly competent, butalsoa very clever man (laughter), and the fittest person to discharge the duties of Commissioner of CroAvn Lands, but at present he could not conceive how it was possible for the Commissioner to come out in such bright colours (laughter). The Address Avas carried Avithout a division. PETITION OF THOMAS ADAMS. Mr. Packer, according to notice, rose to move that the petition of Thomas Adams, be referred to His Excellency the Governor. Carried without discussion. Mr. Hamilton laid on the table a petition from the Lyttelton Colonists' Society, relating to Education. He was greatly gratified to be able to state that the members of that body had turned their attention to tins subject, and so thoroughly understood its importance. They had not shrunk from asserting both the necessity of State Education, and of raising special funds to provide for it. He would direct the attention of members to the fact that the two first resolutions were almost identical with those adopted by the Council. He could not,however, express any decided opinion on the 3rd resolution as t« preferring one system to another, and was not yet prepared to support it. He would move that it be read by the Clerk, and ordered to lie on the table. The House, adjourned at 8 o'clock. We are unable to give the particulars of what transpired in the sittings of the Council on Thursday and Friday, as, owing to some as yet unexplained came, our report has not come to hand. We hope to be able to give the particulars next week. Ed. L. T.