MINUTE OF AN INTERVIEW WITH THE RIGHT HON. EARL GREY,

Lyttelton Times, Volume II, Issue 77, 26 June 1852, Page 5

MINUTE OF AN INTERVIEW WITH THE RIGHT HON. EARL GREY,

Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State, tor the Colonies, on the Subject of Transportation.

We alluded to the following Minute of Mr. King's in our leading article of the 12th inst. We offer no apology for inserting it at length, as it refers to a question which indirectly bears upon New Zealand, and is, at the present time, engaging the undivided attention of all classes in Australia and Tasmania.

" On the 25th of November, I waited upon Earl Grey, by appointment, at the Colonial Office, for the purpose of urging the expediency of discontinuing transportation to the Australian colonies. I enjoyed at the interview, at which Mr. Frederick Peel was also' present, a very favourable opportunity of drawing attention to the question on its more important bearings, but as the facts and arguments adducihle in support of our just claims are already known to my fellow-colonists, it does not seem necessary that I should give more than a brief outline of the remarks which I felt called upon to make on the occasion. My minute, however, of Earl Grey's statement in reply, having been hindly corrected by his lordship, at my request, may be regarded as a full expression of the views and intentions of her Majesty,s Government, with respect to transportation. " I commenced my remarks by reminding his lordship of the circumstances under which transportaiion to New South Wales was discontinued, and Van Diemen's Land made the sole receptacle of British criminals. I adverted at considerable length to the fearful moral and social evils which transportation had entailed upon that colony. I referred to his lordship's own speeches in the House of Peers, in the years of 1846 and 1847, in illustration of the horrors of the system, and of the absolute ruin with which it was fraught as regarded the free population of the island. I assured his lordship that, however salutary the change of penal discipline which had since been made, it was vain to expect that any system whatever would oe effectual in reforming the hardened and incorrigible viUians now sent out as transported offenders; that the intolerable grievances acknowledgedly suffered by the free settlers at the time referred to, remained almost wholly ""abated, and that they could neither be repressed nor mitigated in any material degree so long as transportation was'continued, under any form or designation whatsoever. In proof 0 this assertion I referred, at considerable enSfh, to the opinions of the clergy of all denominations, and of the respectable free inhabitants of the island of every grade, as ex-

pressed in their frequent petitions to the Queen and both Houses of Parliament; as well as to my own experience of the numbers of virtuous families who were' compelled at any sacrifice to abandon such-a scene of vice and infamy as Van Diemen's Land presents, and seek a home in the colony of Victoria. I pointed out that Tasmania having long since become full to overflowing with criminals, immense numbers had passed over, as they obtained conditional pardons, to Port Philip, where, under the guise of free men, they entered unchecked upon new scenes of vice, demoralization, and crime. I mentioned that as a natural consequence of this state of things, more than seventenths of all the crime of the colony of Victoria was committed by these manumitted felons, and that as improvidence and disease are ever allied to depravity and vice, our benevolent institutions were overburdened with their maintenance ; thus, not only entailing upon us enormously increased taxation for police and gaols, but exhausting our charities for the relief of the diseased and debilitated criminal population of the mother country. I remarked that it had been customary of'late for the Governor of Van Diemen's Land to grant conditional pardons, available in all the Australian colonies, to entire shiploads of convicts immediately on their arrival; and that as the expence of their crossing over to Port Philip was purely nominal— from whence they might make their way either to New South Wales or South Australia at pleasure—the pledge given to the former of these colonies, that British criminals should not be landed on their shores without their consent, and the exemption enjoyed by the other from the like calamity under Act of Parliament, were now scarcely even cojourably respected. I entreated his lordship to reflect upon the fearful consequences to the well-being of society which must result from the congregation at the New South Wales gold fields of the hordes of hardened villains who were previously scattered over all the Australian colonies, and upon the powerful incentive to crime in this country which transportation to such a country must hold out. I then took occasion to advert to the formation to the Australian Anti-Transportation League, to the remarkable unauimity which prevails in the colonies mentioned on the subject of transportation, as evinced by the proceedings at their public meetings, and the extraordinary support which the League has obtained from all sects and classes of the community. I said that in the colony of Victoria the inhabitants were opposed, to a man, to the continuance of transportation under any form ; that in South Australia I believed a precisely similar state of things obtained ; that in New South Wales, with a few inconsiderable exceptions at Moreton Bay, a like unanimity prevailed ; even those who formerly advocated transportation, being now most strenuous in their efforts to prevent its resumption ; and that in Van Diemen's Land I was credibly informed not a single representative would be returned to the new Legislature who was not pledged to oppose the system to the utmost of his power. I warned his lordship, under these circumstances, that he might expect the Legislatures of all the colonies named would, in their very first sessions, enter very strong protests against the reception of British criminals upon any terms, and in no instance would the protest be stronger or more indignant than that placed on record by the Legislature of Van Diemen's Land. It therefore seemed, I said, that as the principle of not compelling a colony to accept convicts against the expressed wish of its Legislature, had already been laid down and acted upon with regard to the other • Australian colonies, Van Diemens's Land would become entitled to a like exemption as soon as its elective Legislature had arrived at a decision adverse to the continuance of the system. I informed Lord Grey that, as I came before him in a spirit, not of recrimination but of earnest entreaty, I purposely refrained from adverting to any "of the unfortunate misunderstandings which had arisen between his lordship and the colonists in the previous discussion of this question : but I did not feel jnstified in concealing from him the fact, that the grievances inflicted upon the' free inhabitants of all the colonies by transportation taken in connection with the continued refusal of her Majesty's government to afford them any redress, had at length produced such an extent of irritation in the public mind, that I was satisfied the state of internal tranquility and perfect understanding between the colonists and the mother coun-

try, so essential to good government, could never be maintained in the Australian colonies until the abolition of transpoation was unconditionally conceded. I therefore concluded by earnestly entreating his lordship, as a measure alike of justice, morality, and sound policy, to recommend to her Majesty the revocation of such orders in council as admits of the transportation of British criminals to any part of the Australian colonies.

" Earl Grey stated in reply, that he still adhered to opinions which he expressed in the year 1846 and 1847 with regard to the then state of the penal establishment of Van Diemen's Land. Great evils had unquestionably grown up under the probation system, which obtained prior to that time. The Government had, however, been most zealous in their efforts not only to correct these evils, but to prevent their recurrence in future. With this view a complete change had been made in our penal discipline, both in this country and iii the colony, so that he felt assured it would now be found to work most'advantageously as regards the reformation of the criminal, and not, on the whole, injuriously as regards even the moral welfare of the inhabitants of Van Diemen's Land. It must be expected that some evils of the kind described by Mr. King, would result to the free settlers so long as Van Diemen's Land continued to be a penal cplony; but these he was convinced were very much over-rated by the opponents of transportation, and, indeed, were more than counterbalanced by the adantages which the inhabitants derived from the supply of cheap labour by means of convicts. This was a great advantage to the colonists, not only in a pecuniary point of view, but because it had been shown by experience in all the colonies that extravagant wages, occasioned by a deficient supply of labour, were not favourable to the moral improvement of the population ; and it was very doubtful whether, comparing the ad vantages, and disadvantages, the colony did not gain more than it lost as to the morality of the population, from the continuance of transportation on the present footing. That, on the other hand, there could be no doubt that it would suffer most seriously in its pecuniary interests, probably to the extent of ruin to the majority of the landowners, from losing both the advantages of cheap labour and that of the large convict expenditure. That this expenditure had been made more beneficial than formerly to the colony, by the very important concessions recently made by the Government in remitting the amount chargeable against the colony for the maintenance of prisoners employed in the formation of roads, and the execution of other public works in the island. That under the new system of convict management, crime was not found to be at all prevalent it the colony; on the contrary, it was universally admitted that nowhere did there exist more perfect security for persons and property, and the criminal returns of Van Diemen's Land would bear not a very unfavourable comparison with even those of the originally free colony of South Australia. Besides, his lordship remarked, it appeared that the settlers of Van Diemen's Land generally were still quite ready to avail themselves of the services of all the convicts at the disposal of the Government. In them they found a cheap and very useful description of labour ; and so great was the demand for convicts, that those sent out by recent ships were taken into private service immediately on their arrival. Lord Grey added, that it must be borne in mind that Van Diemen's Land had been originally established as a convict colony, at an immense expence to this country. That the hope of gain had attracted to its shores a number'of free settlers, some of whom, having grown rich upon convict labour and convict expenditure, were now urgent in their demands that transportion should absolutely cease. But her Majesty's Government could not recognize the justice of a claim preferred under such circumstances. In accordance with the hopes held out by the Government, in 1847, a great and most salutary reformation had thus been wrought in our penal system, but it certainly had never contemplated an abandonment of transportation ; understanding, by that word, the ultimate removal of offenders to Australia. There could be no doubt but that if the gold discoveries in New South Wales proved as extensive as we are led to expect, the people of Van Diemen's Land would soon discover the advantages which they possessed over the other Australian colonies, in having, through their convict estabiishrneirts,

an abundant supply of cheap labour, when free servants could not be obtained at any price. f

With regard to the colony of Victoria, his lordship remarked, that it mainly owed its origin and its riches to the neighbouring penal settlements of New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land. It was from them that its first settlers came, bringing with them those flocks and herds which have since proved such a source of wealth to the 'colony. The inhabitants of Victoria having therefore voluntary located themselves in the vicinity of penal colonies, for the sake of the advantages arising from that vicinity, could not now, with any show of reason or justice, demand that transportation thereto should be abandoned to suit their convenience. No doubt, under the former system of penal discipline, many men of desperate character did find their way from Van Diemen's Land to Port Philip ; but under the reformed system, a very different state of things would be found to exist. The criminals now sent out would be found at the termination of their 'punishment a very much better class of men than those formerly transported without any previous training, and then still further corrupted by being placed in the probationary gangs. Those now sent out, after having passed through the discipline of Pentonville and Portland, would, indeed, in many instances, be found to bear a very favourable comparison with the free emigrants who went out under the bounty system. He had, therefore, no doubt, that when, the convicts, who would shortly be entitled to their conditional pardons, under the new penal system, made their way to Victoria, they would be found to be by" no means an objectionable set of men, but a valuable addition to the labour market. It was a great mistake, his lordship said, to imagine that because men were convicted of serious offences they were less likely to become reformed characters under a salutary system of penal discipline, than those sentenced for more trifling crimes. It often happened that the most inveterate and hardened criminals were transported in consequence of conviction of some slight offence, and that on the other hand men not habitual criminals, were transported for grave offences committed in a moment of passion. The history of the colony of New South Wales showed, indeed, that instead of its being true that convicts sentenced for the slightest offences behaved the best, precisely the reverse was the case; and that the men transported under long sentences, aud therefore serious crimes, were, as a body, the best conducted. Some of the most respectable of the emancipists in that settlement were originally transported for crimes of a very high character, while it was actually matter of complaint during the administration ot Governor Darling that most of the offences were committed by the short sentence men, who were the most difficult to manage. His lordship observed that in sending convicts to colonies where penal establishments did not already exist, the government had acted on the principle of being guided by the wishes of the inhabitants, but that the rule could not be held to apply to an originally convict colony like Van Diemen's Land. The people of Western Australia had petitioned that convicts might be sent there, and a few were accordingly sent, who were found to be very acceptable to the colonists. Victoria not having had a Legislative Council until now, was not m a position to pronounce a separate opinion upon the 501,,,Jfs 0 1,,,Jf- ?y the Legislative Council of New South Wales it had, however, been determined that no convicts should be received by that colony, and the order in Council constituting it a place to which British criminals might be sent was consequently revoked, It did not seem, nevertheless that the inhabitants of the colony of New South Wales were at all unanimous in their rejection of convicts, a petition having been received by the Government, signed by a large proportion of the most respectable owners and occupiers of land in the northern or Moreton Bay District of the colony, praying that it might be separated from New South Wales With the view of being converted into a penal settlement. Under all these circumstances, his lordship said he could hold out no hope tint transportation to the originally convict colony of VanDiemens Land, would be abandoned nor that the Government would not continue to send transported offenders to such other of the Australian Colonies as had consented, or mi»ht hereafter consent to receive them. 8 I ventured to remark, in reply to his lordship s observations, that we differed so very Widely upon the whole question, both as re-

garded matters of fact and inference, that it did not seem, even if time permitted, that any good could possibly result from a further discussion of the subject. I was unwilling, bowever, to allow his lordship's remark, that the convicts " now sent out would, indeed, in many instances bear favourable comparison with the free emigrants who went out under the bounty systems," to pass unnoticed. No opinion, I assured his lordship, could be more erroneous, no remark more thoroughly unjust. The free emigrants who came out to us under the bounty system were, I said, generally speaking, a very industrious and reputable class of people. The convicts, on the contrary, were hardened, incorrigible villains of the blackest possible dye; men generally speaking, transported for offences for which they would formerly have been executed. In support of this position, I handed to his lordship a return showing that of eightyfive persons who were suffering on the 31st of December last, under sentences of the Supreme Court for crimes committed in the colony, only nine had arrived in the district as free emigrants. On the termination of the interview, I thanked hi?lordship for the very kind and attentive manner in which he had listened to my remarks as well as for the full exposition he bad been pleased to give of the views and intentions of government on the subject; but I, at the same time expressed my regret that I had been so utterly unsuccessful in my endeavours to persuade his lordship to abandon a line of policy so opposed to the wishes, and utterly ruinous to the best interests of the inhabitants of the Australian Colonies. John C. King. 10th December, 1851. N.B.—The printing of the above minute has been delayed to admit of the manuscript of Earl Grey's reply being corrected by his lordship.