LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Lyttelton Times, Volume I, Issue 34, 30 August 1851, Page 6

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Tuesday, July 15.—The Marriage Amendment Ordinance and the Census Ordinance were read a third time and passed. The Crown Lands Amendment Ordinance was resumed in committee. Mr. Cautley moved an additional clause to the effect that no hundred should be proclaimed until the Executive Council had been consulted, and the amount of the population rendered it desirable to do so ; and if it took in one-fifth of any run the holder of such run should have a year's notice given him before he was dispossessed of it. After some discussion the Council decided, that they approved of the spirit of the amendment. Its further consideration was postponed. Captain Smith's amendment in clause 9, that the fine inflicted on transgressors of the Bye laws of the Pastoral Wardens, should be "not exceeding 30Z.," instead of" not exceeding 21.," was agreed to. Clause 11, which enacted that the Ordinance should apply to the whole of New Zealand, except the Canterbury Block, was amended by the" Attorney-General, who observed that there was a small exceptional part of New Zealand, called the Canterbury Settlement, to which this Ordinance could not at the present time apply; but it might be that the Canterbury Association might cease to exist, and their settlement be no longer exceptional. It would be well therefore to provide in this clause for such a contingency. Sir G. Grey laid on the table the Appropriation Ordinance, and the estimates for the whole of the New Zealand Islands. In doing so, he said he did not think it would be right or becoming in him to enter into details as regarded the two provinces, seeing there were members of the Executive Government present who would do so when the proper time arrived. The few remarks which he should make would therefore be only of a general kind. He had much pleasure in stating that the financial condition of the country was extremely good, and had been for some time past in a gradually improving state. There was at present a balance of 9000/., and the Parliamentary Grant for 1851 had not yet been touched, but these funds would be considerably diminished by the necessary charges connected with the construction and repair of roads. His Excellency then stated that the revenue of the whole colony was estimated at 59,978/., and the expenditure at 57,4761., leaving a balance of upwards of 2500/. in favour of the public; The revenue of the province oi New Minister separately was estimated at 29,710/., and the expenditure at 27,1541, In the proposed expenditure were various items which had not previously been charged on the revenue of New Minister, such as a portion of the expenses of the construction and repair of roads, and the whole of the expenses connected with the administration of the public lands, as it was impossible, in the present state of the land question, to calculate upon any revenue from the land fund of this province for the present, whilst the amount collected as fees upon the issue of crown grants defrayed but a small portion of the expenses of this'departinent. Turning now to the financial state of New Ulster, his Excellency stated that the estimated revenue of that province was 30.568/., the expenditure 30,372/. Bs. 7cl, leaving a deficit of about 54/. Bat this deficiency would be found to be iu part occasioned by a sum of 3,000/. being devoted towards the construction of a whai'f at Auckland, which might be regarded as a work of a productive kind, as it would be the means of recovering several acres of land from the sea, which could be sold for a sum that would move than repay the cost of the wharf—thus the amount might be regarded as a loan. It was proposed in New Ulster to apply a considerable sum in aid of the native school's established in that province. The greater portion of the expenditure on roads, bridges, &c, in which natives were employed, it was intended to defray, as heretofore, from the Parliamentary Grant— the Council would, however, probably think it necessary to make some further provision from the revenue of the country. Although the financial state of the country was thus on the whole satisfactory, as lav as regarded the revenue, it was not so to his own mind, because from the isolated positions of the various settlements, it was impossible for any one man, or any single government, satisfactorily to administer the revenues of so many remote and isolated settlements. lie then alluded to the great difference between New Zealand and the

Australian colonies; there the population radiated from so many different centres ; here the country was broken up into so many different colonies, scattered over an immense extent of country, each requiring a staff of Government officers, and a great additional expense was incurred in consequence. But he said the Council had made a great step towards remedying this evil by the enactment of the Provincial Councils' Bill, which would enable the distant settlements to administer that portion of their revenues which was not required for the general expenses of the country in that manner they might deem most conducive to their own interests. Though tlie finances of the colony were in so satisfactory a state, and there were such considerable balances in the chests, the Council should bear in mind that a new system of representative Councils was about to be introduced, and he thought therefore, that they should, as little as possible encourage any increased expenditure, so that no province might be established in debt; but that upon the contrary, its legislature, on being called into existence, might find a sufficient revenue at their command, and an accumulated balance in the Provincial chest with which to meet the immediate wants of their respective province. After some notices of motion by Mr. Cutfield relative to the militia and the construction of roads, the Council adjourned till Thursday. Thursday, July 17.—1n committee on the Crown Lands Ordinance, Mr. Cautley again brought forward the motion which he introduced on Tuesday. It was seconded by the AttorneyGeneral and agreed to. Mr. Domett read a memorial from certain inhabitants of Nelson on the subject of the pastoral regulations. They observed that there were about]3o stockholders in the Wairau, that they held the laud under leases granted to them about two years ago by the New Zealand Company, and that this beautiful district was stocked with only a tenth part of what it was able to bear. The memorialists expressed themselves in favour of letting the runs by public competition at so much per acre instead of the charge pei head of stock, and advised that not less than twelve thousand acres should be let for a run. This memorial was signed by about forty stock and land owners. Mr. Bell said there were between three and four hundred acres in the Wairau, held by about forty stockholders, and if each of these were not to be allowed less than twelve thousand acres, they would require more land than there really was. But he rose to move an amendment relating to the assessment of stock. He would ask the committee to double the charges of 6d. per head for cattle and Id. for sheep. He then entered into a calculation to prove that a rent of 501. for 10,000 sheep, when the value of their wool, and the quantity of land they occupied, were considered, was a great deal too small. Capt Smith observed that though it might seem strange that he, a stockholder, should rise to second the motion, yet he did so with pleasure, as he did not think the doubled assessment at all too much. Mr. Bell, from what he had just learnt from the Attorney-General concerning the vested interests of cattle owners in the north, would exempt cattle from his proposed amendment. The Colonial Treasurer thought the difficulty would perhaps be better met by excepting the existing crown leases. Sir G. Grey was not altogether satisfied with the proposed alteration. What the committee now proposed to do was to lay a property tax on stockholders. It resembled the quit rents of Australia. It Avas to be borne in mind that sheep farming might not always be so profitable a pursuit in the colony as now. He could not think, therefore, that the amendment was politic. Some further discussion ensued in the course of which Sir G. Grey said he was convinced that as soon as it was known in Australia that the assessment was doubled, a considerable number of persons would be thereby prevented from coming to this colony. Let the country be well stocked with flocks and herds, and a great commerce would immediately be created, and he trusted the Council would do nothing to prevent this. On the amendment being put, Messrs. Bell, Smith, Cautley, Petre and Domett voted for it! There were more opposed to it— it was consequently lost. The Bill passed the Committee, and the amendments carried were adapted by the Governor.

The Naturalization Ordinance was read a third time, and passed. The Appropriation Ordinance for 1851 was read a first time. Tuesday, July 22. Sir George Grey then stated that in consequence of the duty having been taken off flour, he should adopt no further measure relative to its exportation or importation. His Excellency then referred to a despatch he had just received from Earl Grey, and read I! an extract from it, which we reprint from the Wellington Spectator in our seventh page. He said the Council would thus see that they had anticipated Earl Grey's recommendations by the enactment of the Provincial Councils Bill, ana^ that in reference to the proposed General.Legislature, he had reason to believe it would be composed of two chambers, each to be elective. The Appropriation Ordinance was xeacl a second time, and passed into committee. On clause 2 being read, Mr. Cautley proposed that the bill should be extended to the Ist of April, or the Ist of July, 1852 as the remainder of ISSI would be too short a time to bring the Provincial Councils into full play, and if the bill were extended over the wholeof 1852, the Council would probably be voting the appropriation of the revenue after the Provincial Councils had been established. Sir George Grey explained that it was his duty to send home a financial statement for 1552, before a grant from Parliament could be voted. The sum of 1504?. 15s. was then voted for the Lieutenant-Governor of New Minister and establishment ; also 200/. for the Native Secretary. The estimate on the Colonial Secretary's department was raised 918/. to 948/., to meet an increase of the salary of the third clerk from 50/. to 80/. per annum. After several other items had been read, the committee adjourned on the motion of Mr. Cautley, fchat the members might compare the estimates with those of former years. Wednesday, July 23. The Keport of the Sub-Committee on the New Zealand Company's Land Claimants' Bill was brought up. Mr. Cautley expressed himself opposed to the recommendations contained in it, but feared that opposition would be useless, as eight members, a majority of the Council, had unanimously adopted the report for presentation. The committee adjourned until Friday. In Committee on the Appropriation Bill, Sir George Grey proposed that as the SurveyorGeneral was an old and meritorious public officer, his salary should be raised from 250/. to 300/., which was agreed to. Mr. Cautley regretted that so large a sum as 400/. per annum should have been given to the Commissioner of Crown Lands, as the highest sum paid to a Commissioner in Australia was 300/. Sir George Grey did not see any analogy between Australia and this colony. Forage allowance was voted for the head of the police. On the item of 200/. for the Colonial Chaplain being proposed, the Colonial Treasurer expressed himself opposed to the vote, everything like a state support having been sought to be avoided from the commencement of the colony. At home they seemed so fully to understand this that the ordinance.passed in the first session for granting an allowance for religious purposes was disallowed by the Home authorities. Mr. Domett read the protest which had been signed by two official and two non-official members, against the appointment of a Colonial Chaplain, when that appointment was first made. Mr. Cautley would never consent to see py portion of the general revenues of the colony devoted to the support of any particular Church. Mr. Dillon would vote for the amendment, though not on financial grounds. The Lieutenant-Governor observed that the Colonial Chaplain had several duties to attend to. Among which he had to care for the spiritual wants of those who were confined in their hospitals and gaols. The Colonial Secretary said that most essential services had been rendered to such persons by Colonial Chaplains, and if a Chaplain was so necessary, he thought, although himself not a member of that Church, he should belong to the Church of England. After some further conversation, Sir George Grey contended that the Church of England was a most oppressed Church. Instead of being

dominant in this colony, she was in point of act, by her laws, placed under every other denomination. Yet notwithstanding this, the great majority of the people belonged to it, and if they were to provide spiritual help for the sick and poor, there was no Church whose ministrations would embrace so large a number. He ; did not think 2001. was a large sum for such an \ object, in such a town as Wellington, but if | they were allowed to manage their own affairs, '■and choose their own officers, he for one would not ask for the grant. Mr. Domett observed that if 200Z. would relieve this most distressed Church, he would withdraw his amendment, but he thought the larger their numbers, the better they could support their church. He was of opinion, however, that the English Church numbered not the great majority, but about one half of the people. The Attorney-General declined to vote. There appeared on division an equal number for and against the amendment, when Sir George Grey gave his casting-vote in favour of it, and the item was ordered to be struck out of the estimates. Sir George Grey laid on the table a bill to authorise the Government to grant Charters to Banking Companies. Friday, July 24. Several items connected with the expenditure for Wellington and Wanganui were disposed of without discussion. On the item of 300Z. for roads in the Nelson settlement being brought forward, Mr. Cautley referred to two petitions he had presented at the commencement of the Session, one on the subject of granting funds for making a good road from Motueka to Nelson, and the other for erecting a suspension bridge across the Maitai river, which at present divided the town in two. The inhabitants had already subscribed 1001. for this object. He would propose that this item should be increased to 7001.. Mr. Dillon seconded this proposition. Mr. Domett, in supporting it, said that Nelson produced a considerable revenue, and at least three times as much wheat as all the other settlements put together. The erection of the bridge in question would confer a great boon on the inhabitants. Amendment carried. The sum of 70/. was also voted for improving Nelson harbour. Sir George Grey observed that the expences of the Kesident Magistrate's Department at Lyttelton, though laid down in "the estimates, would very likely not be drawn. Mr. Godley who had held this appointment from the commencement, had declined to receive any salary for it, but as it might become necessary when he found the duties too onerous, to appoint some other person, the amount of the salary had been placed on the estimates. Sir George Grey then read a letter he had just received from the Agent of the Canterbury Association, enclosing resolutions passed at a pnblic meeting in Lyttelton. which were to the effect that it was absolutely necessary that moorings capable of holding si x vessels should be laid down opposite the town. But on Mr. Bell stating that two sets of moorings at New Plymouth cost 1,200Z. ; and Mr. Cutfield that six moorings would cost 3 or 4000Z., Sir George Grey said it was a question whether the cost of these moorings should not be paid out of the funds of the Association. The question was left to be settled between His Excellency and Mr. Godley. In the estimates for Otago, on the Supreme Court department being proposed, Mr. Cautley considered a Judge at Otago, in a population of 1500 persons, a most useless appointment. Sir George Grey considered tins a mistaken view'S>f the subject, as although the Judge's salary appeared on the estimates for Otago, it' ■was in reality defrayed by the general revenue, and no Council would be able to interfere with it. The Judge at Otago might sit as a Judge in the Supreme Court, or in any other part of the country. Mr. Bell thought that on the introduction of steam coinmunication, one of the Judges might Ibe dispensed with. ' Sir George Grey conceived that rapidity of ' communication would render necessary the appointment of another Judge, as increase of wealth would increase the number of appeals, &c. ■ The council might address the Crown, so that it should be perfectly understood that for the future no Judges should be created in New Zealand, until the General Legislative Council requested their appointment. It was perfectly

possible that these Associations in connexion with New Zealand might send out their own Judges without reference to the state of the colony, until New Zealand might be completely overjudged. His Excellency's suggestion was agreed to. The sum of 2281. 15s. was voted for repairs of roads and bridges in Dunedin. On a grant of 2001. to the New Zealand Society being proposed, it was objected to by Mr. Cautley, as being premature, and by the Colonial Treasurer. Sir George Grey defended the grant, as likely to promote the development of the country's resources, and disseminate information respecting them. The grant was agreed to. The Colonial Secretary N.M. proposed a grant of 2002. to the Mechanic's Institute of Wellington, which was voted, on the understanding that 1002. was to be applied to the general purposes of the Institution, and 1001. to the purchase of standard works to form the nucleus of a library. The sum of 15001. was placed on the estimates for the erection of a Gaol at Wellington. Extract from a Despatch from the Eight Honoubabi/e Eael Grey to the Governok-in-Chief of New Zealand. No. 23. Downing-street, 19th February, 1851. Sir, —In acknowledging your despatch No. 98, of September 20, in which you report the resignation of certain members of the Legislative Council of New Zealand, I will take the opportunity of adverting to your former dispatch, No. 161, of November 30th, 1849, in which you proposed the introduction of representative institutions into New Zealand in the beginning of the present year. I have, as yet, refrained from answering this despatch, not from any reluctance on the part of her Majesty's Government to entertain the momentous question to which it relates, or from any distrust of your judgment in thus proposing the'extension of free institutions, at an earlier period than was before contemplated, into the community over which you preside ;but from a sense of the practical difficulties which oppose the immediate realization of your views. ■ Fully admitting the principles which you advocate, and also the force of your testimony to the fitness of the community of New Zealand for the proposed change, the manner of effecting it required serious consideration, not only from its own inherent difficulties, but because it could not be done without the authority of Parliament. 3. I therefore postponed my answer until it could be determined whether it was possible to submit any measure on the subject of the constitution of New Zealand to Parliament during the present session.. I must now inform you that upon a full review of the various subjects which must necessarily be brought before the Legislature in the present session, her Majesty's Government have come to the conclusion that it probably will not be in their power, without interfering with measures of more pressing urgency, to introduce in this session, a bill for determining the future constitution of the Government of New Zealand, since from the experience of the discussions on the bill for extending to the other Australian colonies the constitution already established in New South Wales, it is evident that the consideration of such a measure would necessarily occupy a very large portion of the public time. 4. These reasons, in addition to those already stated in my dispatch of 22ud December, 1849, have induced me to consent to the continued postponement of a more comprehensive measure, and I have felt the less difficulty in doing so, inasmuch as the powers with which you are already invested by the Suspending Act of 1848, enable you to introduce the representative principle, of your own authority, into the Legislatures of the provinces into which New Zealand is divided. If you think the time has arrived for the safe exercise of those powers, I wish you to use them forthwith. For it would, in my opinion, be attended with much convenience that the Provincial Councils should be re-con-stituted on this basis before the constitution of the General Legislature is altered. 5. The best model for these Provincial Councils, which must be regarded as temporary and subordinate institutions, will probably be attained by introducing a number of'elective members exceeding the non-elective ; but the

proportions, and the other details, I leave to yourself. 6. I agree with you in thinking that hereafter, when the population of the colony shall have increased, and the means of communication been improved, many of the subjects which must for the present be dealt with by these separate Legislatures will be brought again with propriety under the control of the General Legislature ; the Provincial Councils confining them • selves ultimately, to the discharge of duties similar to those, which, in Canada, devolve on the District Councils. 7. I approve also of the change which you propose, in paragraph 7 of your despatch of November 30, 1849, to introduce in the present constitution of the Provincial Councils as to the suspension of their ordinances by the Governor-in-Chief; but this is a power which, from the nature of the subject, should be very sparingly exercised. 8. On the question of the farther subdivision of New Zealand in general, or of New Munster, into provinces, I must necessarily rely, in great measure, on your judgment. According to the best opinion which I am able at present to form, it is desirable that such subdivision should take place. The parties who are interested in the settlement of Canterbury, and I believe also those who are concerned in Otago, are desirous of having those settlements erected into separate provinces, in which case Nelson would remain as now, in connection with Wellington. But the decision as to the limits of these provinces I wish to remain with yourself. 9. This opinion, however, is not unconditional. lam not satisfied of the expediency of establishing in these smaller provinces Councils entirely nominated by the Crown, as you appear,to suggest in your despatch of November 30th, 1849. I think, on the contrary, that no new provinces should be constituted unless the representative element can be introduced into its councils. But, even with a very small population, this appears to me practicable. 10. In the next place, I agree in your opinion, as expressed in your despatch of December 22, 1849, paragraph 20, that no new province should be constituted, unless on the terms of supporting its own peculiar expenses, and contributing its fair proportion to those general expenses, whatever they may be, which may be charged ojrthe whole community of New Zealand. 11. In order to carry these views into effect, I have advised her Majesty to make the necesary change in the Charter of 1846. The Act of 1848, suspending the Constitution, does not suspend that portion of the Act of 1846, which empowers the Queen to divide the Island into provinces, or that portion which enables her to delegate to the Governor any portion of the powers which that Act confers upon her. You will therefore be empowered in general terms, to constitute new provinces ; and the Act of 184S gives you sufficient authority (with the advice of the Legislative Council of New Zealand) to constitute Legislatures for such provinces. 12. To facilitate the same object, the Royal Instructions will also be altered in the manner which you recommend in your despatch of October 22, 1849, as to the Constitution of the Executive Council. 13. When the inhabitants of New Zealand are thus invested with the power of managing the affairs of the separate provinces by representative bodies, by which also they will be enabled to express their wishes and opinions to the General Legislature (which will, no doubt be much assisted, and in great measure guided by their advice,), I trust that no serious inconvenience will result from the. postponement for a short time of a change in the constitution of the latter body, by which a representative character will be given to it likewise. * ****** I have the honour to be &c, &c, &c, (Signed) Gkex\ Governor Sir George Grey, K.C.8., &c, &c, &c. [We shall re-print in our next the speech of the Attorney-General in the debate respecting an Address to the Crown against Colonizing Associations, which took place lately at Wellington—together with the remainder of the reports of the sittings of the Legislative Couucil, which have now concluded.]