MARKETING PRODUCE

Hawera & Normanby Star, Volume XXXXI, Issue XXXXI, 10 July 1920, Page 5

MARKETING PRODUCE

MEETING OF PRODUCERS IN

HAWERA

Under the auspices of the Hawera Dairy Co. a large meeting of those interested in the marketing scheme of dairy produce was held in the Opera House yesterday. Mr J. B. Corngan occupied the chair.

j The chairman explained at the out- , set that the Hawera Dairy Co. had decided to invite delegates from every factory in Taranaki or the North Island, in fact everyone interested in I the dairy industry,, in order to get a , consensus of opinion of the whole of the producers to arrive at some workale marketing scheme that would be suitable to all. In view of the representative nature of the gathering, he would, suggest that the meeting might like to elect its own chairman. On the motion of Mr Dunn, Mr Corrigan was elected chairman of the meeting. On resuming the chair, Mr Corrigan remarked that the marketing scheme outlined at Palmerston North, did not achieve the object aimed at, insofar as the scheme suggested allying themselves to another concern—or rather they were going to the exjiense of forming two companies, which later on would be merged into one. They were all out to save money by getting a marketing scheme suitable to all, but if they attempted to carry out a scheme'which was not acceptable to all >it was not, going to be a success. The weak point of the Palmerston North scheme .was that they had to take into partnership another concern, and the promoters of the scheme had suggested that this other concern was going to be an assistance to the producers, but in what way he had not yet been able to see. His (the speaker's) idea was that if they were going to have a marketing scheme let them have one that would be quite suitable and in their own interests. (Applause.) The chairman then briefly' outlined the proposals made at Palmerston North, and already fully'reported in these columnsj and then proceeded to explain the difficulties in the way of the success of that scheme. First of all there was the Price Fixing Committee. Although on that committee there may be a majority of New Zealanders, they had not the necessary ability. He did not in any way wish to disparage the New Zealand producers, but they must not forget that in the Todley Street dairy produce business there were the best commercial brains in the world. Any New Zealand pi'oduoers' representatives who sat on the proposed Price Fixing Board at Home would have first of all to learn their business, and the process may be detrimental to producers in New Zealand. He (Mr Corrigan) claimed to have as much average commercial ability as most dairy factory directors—notwithstanding Messrs Murdoch, Fprsyth arid Morton (laughter)— but he would not. care to take a seat on the proposed board, because he would realise that he could not do justice to the producers of New Zealand. A voice: I am quite sure you would. Mr Corrigan: No. It would be like sending a child to school to learn its lessors, and whilst learning them howwas it possible to do their business. The N.D.A. was a body representing the producers and the co-op, dairy factories of the North Island. It was said at Palmerston North that the N.D.A. could not organise a marketing scheme because of its, articles of associat on.

The cost of creating a new company was going to be pretty expensive, and he could not see why, when they already had an organisation, they should not. b e able to so alter the constitution1 as to permit of their having their own marketing board at Home ■gr their own selling floor. This would save a lot, of expense to the producers and be in tho best interests of the i"" dustry. They would not then eliminate any competitor, a^nd any scheme that eliminated competition was not going to be in the best interests of the producers. (Applause.) They would then have the C.W.S. buying from their board at Home, or Tooley Street, cr anyone else who wanted to purchase. Tooley Street would not then be excluded nor weuld any other competitor, and they would not have the feeling that on 6 class of business was being set uu against another. The C.W.S. was admittedly a' good business concern, well managed, but it did not seem natural that such a concern! should be willing to give: something away for nothing. It was against human nature, but Messrs Ellison aid Morton said distinctly that the C.W.S. would get no preference—no preference for the £50,000 they were putting ici'o the business, and only half the profits of commission. The commission was to be 2V per cent, the present rate, so they "were not going to gam any benefit *in that direction. The argument was use"3 that the C.W.S. distributed the produce to consumers and that producers would consequently get the benefit of better facilities than could be offered by any other firm handling their produce in the Old Country.. The C.W.S was a concern: affiliated with a lot of other co-op societies, so that they did not eliminate the middleman. They themselves were middlemen just as Tooley Street people *were, so he could not see where any saving was goino- to b e made there. There coukl be no doubt that if the C.W.S. came in as suggested in the Palmerston North scheme that they would get a preference in some way or another, and rightly so and in doing so, I*o doubt they would get the backs up of the other competitors. New Zealand producers did not want that. What they did want was a concern of their owri and controlled absolutely by themselves. ' Then they may attain the object they all had in view of saving money, because that was what -it came to when it wns all boiled down He was sure that if the N.IU. could be persuaded to tackle the scheme whole heartedly on the lines he suggested their arguir-nt as to the want, of finonce could rrudily he overcome. ' The promoters of th- Pnhnerpton scheme" snid that the C.W.S. would advance 80 per cent on our produe-;. Tint when it was all boiled clown it was found that tliev only proposed to. advance 50 ncr cent. of 80 iier cent, or 40 per cent., and the producers would finance the other 40 p?v cent on their bills of lading here. Ihe Bank of New Zealand had a branch in London, and after all it was i£e o-oods that they loaned money o. He was quite sure the N.D.A. would have vo trouble in financing their producethroutrh the Bank of New Zealand until it was disposed of i« London. A menace that threatened the dairy andustvv was the professional chairmanships of companies. They must realise'that they were drifting, o.uietlv out of the ordinary channels of their business irito channels where th c professional chairmanship enters in. He had been on committees and noticed things that he could not see eye to eve i with, but he was not goins to let the I cat out. of the bag now —that was not I what lie was there for' that day to discuss. They were there to discuss ' the best means of marketing their pro: duce, and if it were in the best inter-

ests of the industry to eliminate the agents, which he hoped they would some day do, he did not want unnecessary trouble created in the process. It was not a wise thing to daive out one devil and let two more in. If they were going to have a Board of Control at Home, let them secure the •services of the three best business brains at Home men who had served a lifetime at the business, to act with Messrs Ellison and Brash. Such a board would get far better results thai* send? ing men from here to learn their business. (Applause.) They could charge 1£ per cent for marketing, and any profits over expenses could be rebated pro ra-ta to the various factories. They would then have the whole thir.%g for themselves in place of having to give half their profits of marketing away to another concern, which was not going to be of any use to the New Zealand producer, excepting, to put £50,01)0 into a company and advance 40 per cent on which, of course, they have to be paid interest. Mr Corrigan reminded the meeting that the co-op, dairy factories of the North Island recently procured funds to send two delegates to foreign countries to obtain information in connection with the manufacture and marketing of certain products. At the eleventh hour it came to the notice of the speaker and Mr Powdrejl, who were members of the committee, that the Eltham Dairy Co. (and Mr Forsyth, one of the two delegates, was chairman of that company) was sending their factory manager abroad also. The Eltham Co., it should be stated, were paying his expenses. The committee thought this scarcely the thing, because it was considered possible that this factory manager accompanying the two selected delegates might get information and use it to the advantage of his particular company. It was finally decided that any information that the manager of the ELtham Co. obtained should belong to the whole of the subscribing companies . They had had. reports from the two delegates, but nothing from the Eltham Co.'s manager, lie noticed that recently the Eltham Co. had had a meeting, and had excluded the press, but he contended that whatever information the Eltham Co. had belonged to the whole of the subscribing companies. It may have been of no use, but still they were entitled to it. (Applause.) "The . promoters of this O.W.S. scheme are running around the country," continued Mr Corrigan, "but they will not put their cards on the table. If it is such a good thing why will they not' put all their card's on the table instead of keeping the joker up their sleeves, thinking they are going to euchre us some time." As tney would have noticed, they did not get much, more information from the delegates they sent Home than they knew before they left, but the fact of travelling around the world must have broadened their views. Boiled down their recommendations amounted to two. Mr Murdoch's was tnat we should establish a sort of experimental factory somew,here in the vicinity of a great aggregation of milk from a small area, experiment with the different products, and find out which was probably the best. Although that sounded very well, it was hardly the function of dairy factories. That should be a Government institution, conducted for the benefit of and to educate the whole of the producers of the Dominion. Mr Forsyth's was a marketing scheme, and he was the man who was punching along this C.W.S. business. He admired©him for trying to get it going,- but he must not feel that because he (Mr Corrigan) criticised his scheme that he was necessarily up against him. He had been termed an obstructionist, and although.he opposed some things he never yet opposed a movement unless he was prepared to suggest something that he believed to be better in its place. It was quite right to be an obstructionist if one were a constructionist as well. In 1913, when he returned from a trip to the Old Country, he suggested a marketing scheme. He said then that so far as the co-op, manufacturing of their produce was concerned they had nothing to learn from Old World co-operation, but they lost control from the port of shipment. He advocated going in for a marketing scheme similar to the one now suggested, but he was told that it was unworkable by the very three men, Messrs Forsyth, Morton, and Murdoch, who were now advocating the C.W.S. scheme. The war had the 'effect of disproving the theory that the agents were indispensable, and although the Imperial authorities may not have marketed the produce to the best possible advantage they were now in the position of knowing that they could market their own stuff if they desired. People would not buy our produce unless thej wanted it; it was the law of supply and demand, and if people wanted the stuff any number of firms would be ready to buy it. He believed a proportion of factories would go into the C.W.S. scheme, and that might be detj m-ental to those who did not join in. If a certain proportion did go in the attitude of Tooley Street might be not to allow the C.W.S.' to show too good returns, otherwise they would be finished with. To do this they may decide to use a portion of our produce to hammer prices down. Consequently the producers of New Zealand should be very careful to adopt only such a scheme that would be in the interests of everyone and' so prevent the possibility of one portion of their produce being knocked about to affect the price of the other. He would move: That this meeting of producers considers it will be serving their interests best if the committee of the marketing scheme set up at Palnierston North establish it on the following lines: (1) To get the N.D.A. constitution altered so that it can establish a selling floor in London; (2) that the selling board should consist of three of the best men that can be procured in England, men that have been in the marketing business all their lives, also Mr Eljison and Mr Brash, these men to give the whole of their services to the N.D.A. and in no way to be connected, with any other firm or company; (3) that arrangements be made with the Bank of New Zealand for companies to finance their pro r J cluce from port of shipment until it is sold on the London market. The motion was seconded by Mr Gawith. Mr Shearer asked how they could get men of the right ability to deal with the produce if they were not connected with a- Home firm. The chairman said that this was provided for in the resolution. He proposed having on the board at Home M6ssrs Ellison and Brash as the representatives of the N.D.A. He did not think there was any doubt as to the ability of these men to represent them. From his experience the men handling their stuff at Home were not the scoundrels they were led by reports to believe. Mr Shearer asked what they would do under Mr Corrigan's proposal for cool storage. . ' The chairman: Most of the cold storage is held by the Port of London Authority, and they would have to pay for it the same as any other concern. Asked if it was a fact that the C.W.S. had cool storage of their own, the chairman said he could not say. Mr Turner said that Lonsdale and Co. had marketed more produce from

Taranaki than any other firm, and had . never caarged a penny storage. The chairman: Have tiFey ever paid any? Mr Turner: They paid for a lot, and the 2J per cent charged as commission covered everything. The chairman: I am not saying that they charged directly for storage, but you can bet we have had to pay for it. Mr Brechin said he had come a long way to attend the meeting, and felt as though he was an outsider. He appreciated the invitation to be present, and hoped to learn a great deal in a short time. They had not come long distances to hear Tooley Street suggest schemes, but to hear the producers announce a better, proposal than tMt put forward by Mr Ellison. He had been glad to hear Mr Ellison mentioned as a man who was capable of representing the producers in the Old Country, and he thought the chairman's judgment sound in this connection. The chairman had represented that the Tooley Street merchants could, if their produce was sold through, the C.W.S., take, down the producers by "bearing" the market against cheese and butter. The chairman: They would not "bear" but "bull" the * market, and bring about a sudden drop in prices. Mr Brechin: If they could evolve a scheme which would have a better effect or be more perfect in its working let it be done, but if the N.D.A. scheme was rejected they "would have to go back to the producers and get a further scheme, which would be too late for the sale of produce in August, and this would suit the men representing: the Home firms, who were doing, their best to get the New Zealand producers to mark time till it was too late to deal with next season's output. If' they waited long enough it would be too late to go in for either the proposals by Mr Ellison or the chairman, and automatically they would remain in the hands of the Tooley Street people. The chairman had said that Tooley Street had lived its Useful life,* but should now be superannuated, and • judging by the applause this was the feeling of the whole meeting. If Tooley Street was to be superannuated the sooner it was done the better. He had great sympathy with the motion, and Mr Corrigan was entitled to their thanks for bringing it down, but he j hoped the meeting would turn it down ! because the present scheme had been [ brought down by a man with a great 1 deal of London experience, and the [ time was too short to change. Further, they could not finance on Mr Corrigan's scheme. He hoped they would support the • committee already appointed in its efforts to find a way out of the ruck in which they were at present. Mr Ray asked who could market the j balance of the produce after the C.W.S. ■ had been satisfied. • The chairman said that Mr Morton ' would answer that question later. Another questioner asked, if there was any need for desperate haste in getting out of the hands of Tooley Street. A year or two, he suggested, would not matter, and this would enable them to get a good scheme. Mr Gray asked why it was that Mr Ellison had taken 11 years to discover the C.W.S. as the concern which should handle .their produce. Probably the real reason that he had not discovered it before was that the men who had previously been handling their stuff had been giving them a fair deal. It was generally admitted that the dairying industry had gone ahead in leaps and bounds, and he contended that Tooley Street had contributed in a great measure to this success. A voice: And have been paid for it. Mr Brechin said that Mr Ellison had not been 11 years in finding out the value of the C.W.S. as a selling institution. Mr Ellison had not been sent Home to look for better methods of selling, but about 12 months ago at the Palmerston Conference a resolution was passed requesting that Mr Ellison bring down in six months' time a proposal for marketing their produce. ( Mr Ellison said it was impossible to evolve a scheme ,in six months, but he concentrated on a scheme and brought it down in 12 months, for which he ob- ; tamed a splendid hearing. The scheme | had commeifded itself to their trusted leaders, and he was pleased to say.it had been unanimously favored at the Palmerston North Conference recently" held. . A voice: Behind closed doors. Mr Jacob Marx pointed out that the various meetings held in reference to this matter must of necessity be the same when the vote was taken; they could not' be taken as indicating the sense of the meeting. At Palmerston North he pointed out that he could not ©xpr#ss the opinion of his company, and quite a number of others there were in the same position. This question j had still to be settled amongst the j various directorates, and any resolution passed that day could not bind them any more than the resolution passed at Palmerston North. They still did not know what strength was behind ihe proposal. Mr J. W. Harding asked whether it was possible for any scheme to give effect to their desires until they had a federation of the whole of the co-op s societies in New Zealand or in the North Island. The chairman replied that that was I the crux of the whole question. If they were going to h.av e .a marketing scheme that was going to be a success they must all be federated together, or, at all events, a majority of them. Mr Harding: Then out first object should be the formation of a federation of-co-op, dairy companies in New Zealand. The chairman: We practically have that federation in the North Island National Dairy Association. That is really what my resolution, refers to. Mr R. Dunn remarked that he was not there that day as representing a dairy company, but merely as a producer. When he went to their first meeting in Hawera he thought the scheme was first rate. The speakers appeared to cast a kind of glamor over him, and he admitted that he was carried away. But he considered it a lot between that meeting and the Palrnerston North meeting, and he realised that he did not see the advantages quite as clearly as he thought he tlici at the Hawera' meeting. He began to realise that there were two kinds of co-operation. We co-operate here as producers; the other concern, the. C.W.S., semeed to have different aims to what we had. In their paxnphiet they. say that their ultimate object is to ge.t control of production and distribution. Those were Socialistic ideas that farmers are altogether up against. That was not the same kind of co-oper-ative movement that the producers oi New Ze.aland were imbued with. W* as producers don/t aim to let some bod j else get control. When he -went to tiu Palmerston meeting he hoped to gel some further' light on that qxiestion but none was forthcoming. A good dea had been said about the unanimity shown in the voting at that meeting but as they were assured that the .vote would not be binding and with one. or two exceptions no on< had. a mandate to bind.them, the reso lution was carried practically unani mously, because many did not Vote an<

did not think it worth while, as a matter of courtesy, to oppose it. It was . idle, under these circumstances, to stress the fact that the vote was practically unanimous. If all the delegateshad' had a mandate from their respective companies then the vote might have been very different. He was of opinion that they should consider this scheme very seriously, even if they had » to go en for another year as they had been in the past. It Vould be in their best interests to do so, because by then. they, might know what position they were geing to be in in regard to shipping. When shipping was decontrolled they may have a lot of trouble, and one trouble at a time was quite enough.

Mr S. Turner (J. J. Lonsdale and Co., Ltd.), submitted the following proposals :— Form separate companies with five of the leading distributive houses. Let the tonnage when the commandeer took ulace be the deciding factor. Get these firms to let their factories have the casting vote in the price considering. Use the firms' distributing power and finance, which has worked so tafe in tke last 30-40 years. Besides these five separate ecmpanies form your own board, with jour own floor scheme, with half a. million capital. . Endeavor to get, thoze factories y,ho have had no settled policy or firm to consign to that board?

Then compare the returns with the other five firms, and even if ihepwn floor company do not >how the feest results the first year, let tre fv.tories stick for, say, two or three years. : If the factories own tijoir own. floor they can gradually eliminate *be five firms by the aid of the why iesa.l© coop, or anybody else; then they will gradually get all the outputs they can handle. The factories owing their own floor, and with the other five firing fo'vn a. committee, with the casting vote hi the farmers' favor. ' They meet in London every week to consider and, i£ necessary (on very special occasions) fix prices. / A weekly report to be made to the New Zealand committee, which shall represent the factory companies owning their own floor, the factories having the casting vote; but the different'firms* agents also to be on the committee here. ■ My firm will form a company for the factories they had before the war and for the factories who consigned to any of the five leading firms if those firms will not form a company in the same way. ' • The proposal I make of six companies will have the advantage— (1) Of keeping the butter and cheese in the same channels. , (2) Of keeping the finance, etc., so I valuable at the present dangerous I time. - |. (3) Of getting a complete control of New Zealand produce (by your own. board) in harmony with your fiv* best I marketing firms. [ (4) It will form a combination of In- ! terests so pewerful that they wiU be able to hold their own against other j countries' produce and skill in a<arktt.^V ;..'■ ' (^,v£ ; v ■;■■-; As regards eliminating"''Hie middlemen, the retail J^rocsr is coing tiiat in the following way: . Ten crates of cheese equals, say £80; ten boxes of butter £50. » On this the grocer can pay his raih^y fare to London and back and save £2 or £3 on every 20 packages he buys direct fiom Tooley Street. This 3 is what he had been doing and will do more extensively now the war is j over. "".■•-' " * . In this way the retail grocer has eliminated the 5 per cent, wholesalemen before New Zealand even dreams of trying to eliminate the 2£ per .cent, importer and ;wholesalemen combined. Mr F. Ranford (Stratford) said he was not committing himself for or against the N. D. A. scheme because, as had been pointed out by Mr Marx in reference to other representatives, he had been given no direction by his com-, pany. He would like to ask whether; it was not necessary to the scheme that they should have loyalty. "Were. not a number of large northern factories and the South Island standing out of the scheme ? _ He would like Mr Morton to answer that when speaking.

Mr Wilson (Ararata) was about to move an amendment, but it was rejected by the chairman as a direct negative.

Mr Morton, who was received with applause, then addressed the meeting. Tie first explained what, the N.D.A. scheme was, and then dealt with some of the objections that had been raised? to it. Apparently Mr Corrigan was not satisfied with the conditions existing in the past. Dairy companies' had not been - satisfied, and had asked for some improvement, and there had/ been a continuous expression from factory directors , that - they should not return to the system of marketing in vogue before the war. At meetings : held in different places re solutions had: been passed requesting that some scheme should be brought down. At the annual conference held twelve months ago a definite scheme was asked -for, and the N.D.A. got into touch with Mr Ellison and asked him to comply with the request. In. making his enquiries Mr Ellison came in. contact with the C.W.S., and it seemed to him that he had found the body which, was likely to be of some use to them. In regard to having their own selling floor, Mr Morton continued, there was a difficulty about gettingthe necessary finance, and it seemed to> Mr Ellison that it was practically im- . possible to create a selling floor of ■ their own, and that ihe best means to >. adopt was to get a combination with some business firm which had a standing in Great Britain and would be satisfactory in finance and clientelle.; In the C.W.S. it seemed to him that he had got in touch with a body that could fill that position. The resolution, moved by the chairman affirmed the principle of taking the matter up and appointing their own board. This would mean such changes in the memoranda of the Association as to make the proposal impossible. That being so; they had to find some other method, for achieving their purpose, and it seemed that the simplest was . the creation of a new company formed on. lines necessary to their needs and-with. the marketing of their dairy produce as its main object. That would be the v primary purpose, though other inter--ests may be taken up later. 'It was q^iite obvious that if this body stood nlone it would be in the same position as the N.D.A., and it would not have the stability to undertake the gigantic tksk of financing, nor would it have the support of the retailer at Home. It was necessary to have some body with the stability he "had indicated, and the C/W.S. fitted in. At a. meeting held in Hawera previously they had representatives of "the C."W.S., and after the matter had been fully discussed a- resolution was carried affirm-, ing the principle of linking up with the C.TV.S. The scheme was then briefly outlined by Mr Morton. He pointed out that all matter? relating; to the fixing of prices would be deaK with by a committee, on which the

producers would have an absolute majority. In. regard to the methods of sale, he pointed out that the produce would be consigned to a board of control in England, and the English company would have control of the selling. • The price would be fixed from time to time as may seem necessary, and the produce would be sold at the price A voice: To whom? % } Mr Morton: To those who will buy. i The price would be fixed in' precisely , the same way as the price ol Danish, butter. When tiie price had been fixed \ anyone could buy it at that price, the ! C.W.S. or anyone else. Many state- ! meuts had been made in regard, to the j question of tinance. It had beesi said j in the first place that unless 6ome sys- j .tern equal to that which dairy fac- i tories Had been accustomed to in' the|fast could be oifered it would be im- i possible to go on. He could assure j them that with the C.W.S. they would { . have what they wanted. He had discussed the matter with a leading banking official, and had been assured tbat there would »ot be the slightest . difficulty, and they would be in the same position in this respect as in the past. In regard to the company to be formed in New Zealand, there would 4 be no need to raise more than the amount of capital required by kuv, or 10 per cent. The money was only needed to establish the company, and not for the purposes of nhancing, which would be done on the goods. Any bank would finance to a reasonable extent on goods. Mr Morton went on to state that if the charges in connection with the marketing were less than the 2i per cent a refund would Tbe made to" the prouueers. It had been said that if they were going to send producers from New Zealand to act as members of the board they would be competing with some of the keenest .business men in England. There was no" intention of sending producers. They would probably select the keenest men they could get, and if so they could be sure 'that their interests would be well looked after. Speaking of the ability of the C.W.S. to handle their produce, Mr Morton said i£ had handled one-third of the Danish butter which came to England in Tire-war days, and mid the price fixed at Copenhagen, He saw no reason why they should not be able to handle "the whole of the New Zealand butter, which was very much less in quantity than .the Danish, though equal in quality. If they got somewhere near the Danish prices they would be doing a good thing for the producers in New Zealand. It had been "said that with the Tooley Street merchants they had a certain connection, which they stood to lose. If they ever had this it had been entirely obliterated during the past three years, during which they had been passing thuough extraordinary conditions. The connection had ceased to exist. The opportunity now presented itself to strike out on their own. He pointed out that the C.W.S. was all over England, in the south as well as the north. In Bristol one society alone had 29 shops. There was one large shop at Woolwich, and there were several Co-operative Socieifies oh the south coast. It had "been put to them that the C.W.S., by reason of the fact that it had been handling so largely Danish butter, was not suitable for handling ours. The C.W.S* recognised that, while Britain had built up the Danish trade by tak- ' ing their butter in the past, Denmark . had sold to the enemies of England duringthe war. The C.W.S. therefore • desired ip,get a British articlg, which they -hepe<l >to be able to sell at as high a price as the1 Danish. They had beer* told that they had a certain connection in the past. He doubled if 7 per cent of their butter had been sold as New Zealand, but the C.W.S. would iseli >xmdev its own label, and if it was sold on its merits they would soon get a tip-top price for it. Mr Jo'll: What about cheese? Mr Morton replied that the C.W.S. | were large dealers in cheese, vand had equal facilities for handling cheese as butter.* He had no doubt that the return would be equally • satisfactory in this case. Replying to a question, Mr Morton said the C.W.S. would probably have the first refusal of the produce, but there would be nothing binding. ' A \ roice: You can't compel these people to buy. Mr Morton pointed out that in dis- i posing of their produce they had, only 1 been dealing with a few people in Tooley Street in the past, but there ! were thousands of * people outside Tooley Street who "Eanciiea dairy produce. The trouble in the past had been that their produce went through too many hands. Under this scheme the C.W.S., who had their own retail shops, would represent the consignees, and there would be a board of control to represent the' producers, so they would sell as directly as possible to the consumers. They did not know the extent to which the middlemen were making a profit out of them till the British Food Control Board handled their produce. He wanted to tell them that for some time Tooley Street had been trying to get control of their produce by means of a charter from the Imperial Government for some years to-come. A voice: That is not $rue. Mr Morton said lie nad in his hands - a copy of the charter. The charter provided for a most exclusive body, consisting purely of those who were recognised importers of butter and cheese, which was to be the sole purchaser of imported supplies. A voice: Is not the "High Commissioner's name included on the proposed board ? Mr Morton: Ea<si of the High Commissioners were to ha-ve power to appoint one representative, which would mean three out of 21. The charter was to be for two years, and provision was made for extension. He had shown clearly that there had been -an attempt on the pa*rt of the importers under their present system to monopolise the purchase and distribution of their stuff in England for a number of years. They had been trying to do this for some' time, and it came to a head in February last. Their agent had cabled them, and they sent a protest, consequently nothing had "been done, but there was nothing to prevent "Tooley Street again applying for the charter. A voice: Did you get the informa- . tion from Tooley' Street ? Mr Morton: t got it from Mr Ellison. A speaker protested at this stage against representatives of Tooley Street taking part in the discussion. It was an inaalt that these men should come there and tell them how they should deal with their produce. They were trying to* kick the producers into line with their ideas. He suggested that these representatives should withdraw from the meeting. (Applause.) "Can't you send your secretary out, Mr Chairman, and ask them to have A drink?" The chairman said he had given the agenis permission to be present so long as they did not contradict. "Don't forget,"'he added, "that if we give them enough rope they will hang themselves." > Mr Morton said he wished to deal "with, one other point—the magnitude of their business. .They had been exporting butter and cheese to the value of £8,000.000 every year, and next year it was t>robable that their exports would reach £15,000.000. Under the old system they paid a certain perceiiftage as

a commission on the sale. On £3,000,-------000 they paid iooley Street about £200,000. How much or this ujas caused by the employment of those estimable gentlemen wnom they called agents? He had seen as many as fourteen agents at a directors' meeting, and each got a good salary on commission, and thejse people were paid by the producers. If they had their own board of control could they imagine the marketing of the stuff costing £'200,000? The cost would probably not exceed £40,000, and.what remained would be refunded to the factories through the Board of Control. It seemed to him' that that aspect had not been given' consideration. This matter of selling their produce had been discussed from one. end of New Zealand to the otner*, and at the whole of the meetings practically no voice of dissent hud ceen raised to the scheme. He quite realised that some represantathes or" lactories had no mandate from their sliLircholders, but the large number who had voted for the scheme showed that the factories had taken it up heartily. The scheme was the best they ©ould offer,' and if any improvements could be proposed no one would be more pleased to consider them tMan the N.D.A. or Mr Ellison. • . j Mr Ranford asked if there would not' be the same difficulty as Mr Morton had stated existed with the N.D.A. in getting the memoranda of dairy companies altered so as to allow them to adopt the scheme. Mr Morton, in his reply, stated that ho definite refusal had yet been re-! eeived from any dairy company to join in the scheme. The N.Z. Dairy Co. had for some months past been considering a scheme by which they would' have their own agent and their own representative in London to deal with the selling of their output. " If the N.D.A. scheme was better than their ■ own they were prepared to come in. ■ In regard to the alteration of memor- j anda he pointed out that ike Legisla-1 ture of New Zealand had several times k passed enactments enlarging the powers of dairy companies. One of these allowed them to deal "with certain products apart from butter and cheese, and the other gave power to ei'e.et or purchase freezing works. He saw no reason why the Government should not legislate so as to enable them to form a. marketing _ company without altering their Articles of Memoranda. 4 j Mr Gawith asked if this was the only' country the C.W.S. was interested in, or were they dealing with other producers. | /Mr Morton: The.C.W.S. has not discussed tiiis matter with any but Ne.w Zealand. Its representatives cameoourt r here at the request of Mr Ellison, and though they spent four or five m#nths in Australia they did not discuss business there, as they Telf in honor bound !to come here ' first. "• . Mr Hicks (Patea) asked if in joining I the C.W.S. whether competition wou.d j be eliminated. . Mr Morton replied that- he could not see that because their produce w-s gqing through new. channels they were | £°. in g to eliminate competition. . -He . pointed out further that the law of * ! supply and demand would always meat that contingency. Mr" Brediin said that while- he believed the mover of the resolution to be in) earnest ne was .Somg to propcsa an amendment, which, he believed,. would endorse a portion of-the resolution and be . acceptable to all. The amendment he would move, was as follows: "That whi/ist 'cordially approving of the suggestion to establish our owns selling floor, this meeting is . of the opinion that we ca*i best secure this ideal by accepting the proposal to market our produce through our own oompacny. on the lines suggested by the National Dairy Association. Speaking further, Mr Brechin said he felt that the amendment did.n^t* run contrary to the resolut on. The chairman remarked that -the mover had £ot Iris amendment pretty well camouflaged. Mr Marx paid a tribute to the satisfactory mamier in which the selLn^ houses in the past bad handled the:r . business. t i Mr S. Turner (Tooley Street) proceeded to speak, when Mr P. Sheahan rose, remarking that the meeting had been convened for producers. He went on to refer to Mr Turner again. The chairman interrupted, and said that Mr Sheahan must speak .to tha resolutions before the meeting. , / In reply to a question, Mr Bre?hin 1 said that the word company in • his : amendment referred to tire producers' own Board of Control. Mr Gan& (Normanby) seconded the | amendment. j Mr J. S. Tosland (Piliama) spoke of j ' the financial proposals of the C.W.S. I scheme, and said it was" up to the pro ' ducers'to do something. "Even if wo !do fall in the mud," he added, "we i have enough grit to pick up ourselves and fjf> fru-wni-d.'' In reply to Mr Joslond. Mr Morton j said that the Board of Control would j fill exactly the same position as the Danish committee. Further, in con-'1 junction with the C.W.S., the pro-.j i duGers would have available for their i us© the oold storage at Home. The chairman,* referring to tha financial aspect of the question, said that his resolution provided for trying to arrange with the Bank of New Zealand. He felt certain that they could finance their stuff in the way he had indicated previously. Was it mt in the best interests of the consumers themselves that they should keep their finances within themselves rather than to have to lean upon a partner, .which would be the ease under the scheme formulated at Palmerston North? Mr P. Sheahan asked if Mr Morton considered the scheme of th© C.W.S. to. be a good one for the producers. Mr Morton replied that he was only advocating it because he believed and was convinced that it was ml the best interests of the producers. If the j scheme, as formulated at Palmerston I North, was approved and taken*up by the dairy producers, he believed it i would be tiie best . day's work that j they had ever done. With regard to their own selling floor, he believed that the would eventually lead to the producers securing this, but at present there were difficulties in the way of getting this. : Mr Lang (Kaupokonui) asked in the event of the C.W.S. sehesne being j adopted, and. a. dispute arising, what J would be the position. Jfrr Morton replied that he did not anticipate ia»y dispute arising, and that if it did ocour, he believed it would be submitted to arbitration. But jn regard to matters relating to price fixing, the producers would have j the majority on the board and he d4d nob think there was the slightest chance of a dispute arising in that connection. Any way 3 he had sufficient confidence in tiie C.W.S. to believe that they would carry out their part of the agreement between the 1 producers and t£e company. - Mr Gawith: If we are go^ng into the scheme with the attitude of making tools of the 0.W.5., what is there to hinder tlfe O.W.S. from adopting the same attitude? i Mr Morton replied that they were not going into the scheme with that . attitude. ! Mr Lang enquired if New Zealond . came into the C.W.S. scheme, would j the C.W.S. relinquish dealing with Danish butter.

Mr Morton replied the same »3 he had done previously. He pointed out that the C.W.S. were acting from a patriotic motive and for the purpose j of getting supplies for their customers in the cheapest market. In reply to Mr Lang, Mr Morton said it was highly improbable that the, retail societies' would be bound to buy from the C.W.S. He would not sup- ' pose for a moment that the retail societies were tied stores. Mr Wilson (Ararata) arid Taylor (Hawera) spoke of their experience of the working of the co-operative stores in England. | In reply to further questions, Mr Morton said he was going to leave no stone unturned to 'carry this project j tnrough. (Applause.) if Mr Oorri■gan's resolution was carried it would moan that nothing could be done, be- > cause, as he had explained at Palmerston North, the N.D.A. had not the necessary power. It would mean altering their articles of association"" which would perhaps take over twelve months j to get through, as there were so many legal difficulties in the way. Replying to Mr Brechin, th e chairman . said if he had supported the scheme as formulated !at Palmerston North he would not haye convened that meeting that afternodn. There were a few weak spots in the Palmerston North scheme which he did not approve of. "I have been trapped so often in my life that I don't want to be trapped ' again," he concluded. Mr Brechin: "1 am d —— if you look guilty." (Laughter.) ! Mr Morton So far as ahe coming season is concerned, should part of their produce go through - the C.W.E. and part go through Tooley Street, everybody will benefit, because Tooley Street will endeavor to show the C.W.S. that they are able to secure a higher price than they are returning. Reference was made to the cable recently published in which attention had been called in the House of Commons to the attempt on the part of the C.W.S. to buy New Zealand's output of butter, and the Minister's rersly, in which he stated that he was going to see that the consumer did not have to pay too h%h a price. This showed, Mr Morton said, that in the opinion of some people, the C.W.S. was out to get prices as big as possible. Mr Corrigan, in reply, said that his suggestion sbill held good, and Mr Morton had backed him up in a good deal that he liad said. He still maintained that financing could be done on the stuff, and therefore he could not see how it was possible to damage the scheme by passing his resolution on to the committee appointed to formulate a scheme. Mr Morton had told them that -the stuff could be financed ki itself, and so it could. Then he had told them that they had the C.W.S. to lean on for finance. That was. the main plank in the platform of the N.D.A. .Was it not better to rely 'on themselves for finance? By passing the resolution they would be giving a direction to the committee which would suit a great many more factories than the' present scheme. If the scheme favored by the N.D.A. was not taken up whole-heart-edly it would be a dangerous scheme. It was xevy likely that next season prices wou'J be humped up, or they may go the other way. Prices may be forced down. A voice: Why give them the stuff if you'think they would "be guilty of that? Mr Corrigan: Money speaks all languages, and they will get the stuff if the.y are prepared to pay for it. In all the discussion he had not heard one man condemn the resolution. After all the resolution was only a recommendation to the committee. A voice : Suppose they can't see their way to accept it? Mr Corrigan: They would have to come as near as they could; but they coukl do it. The Government was in sympathy with the producers and could do anything. Their support to a sound scheme could be obtained. Was it harder and less expensive to alter the memoranda or to .start a new company, and why spend money if it was not necessary. There was little, difference between the motion and the amendment, which was cleverly camouflaged. The question arose as to who should be allowed to vote. Some suggested all at the meeting, with the exception of agents, and others thought that only one representative from each factory should vote. Mr Marx said that he and his codirector could not vote. They were in I the same position as at Palmerston. His ; board had passed no resolution on the matter. ... It was finally decided that all producers present-should'vote, and on- the amendment being put to the meeting, it was lost oii the voices and Mr Corrigan's motion was carried. Mr Corrigan said that he had been asked to bring betfore the meeting the terms of the shipping contract, which, he understood, the N.D.A. would be entering into shortly, "and was suggesting that consideration should be given to those at small ports when he was interrupted by Mr Morton, who stated that no contract was in existence now and there \vas no use in attempting to make one. In a year or two freights might be down and they might then be in a position to make one. Mr Corrigan said he would not discuss the matter further. On the motion of Mr Brechin a hearty vote of thanks was carried to the chairman for the way he had conducted the business of the meeting. Mr Buckeridge, on behalf of the agents, expressed appreciation of the invitation to be present.