COUNCIL CRACKERS.

Hawke's Bay Tribune, Volume II, Issue 170, 3 July 1912, Page 5

COUNCIL CRACKERS.

NOISY ECT HARMLESS

MEMBERS (. OaSULT THEIR L>l<:X ITY. [by telegraph SPEClAL.] (Own Correspondent.) Wellington, July 2. The proceedings in the Legislative Council are again of an interesting character to-day. On the motion of the Leader of the Council, he (Hon. O. Samuel) moved that several committees should be set up. The Hon. J. E. Jenkinson moved as an amendment that in the opinion of the Council a member of the Government holding a portfolio should be appointed as Leader of the Council, and that no business be transacted until that was done. He repeated the statements he made on Saturday and took the opportunity of denying that he had attempted to block the business on the Imprest Supply Bill. Several members had informed him that they were in accord with his views, but they did not think this was the proper time to raise the question. The Hon. O. Samuel explained

that at the present time the Government could not really appoint a member of the Cabinet as Leader of the Council because the available portfolios were filled. ;The Hon. G. McLean: Why cannot one of them resign ? Mr. Samuel said he agreed in principle with Mr. Jenkinson that it would bo desirable to have a Minister in the Council, but the position was as he had stated it. He asked for the forbearance of the Council and urged that they should allow the ordinary machinery to be set up. The Hon. J. B. Callan agreed with Mr. Jenkinson that a most unconstitutional course was being pursued in not appointing a Minister as Leader of the Council. All the leading authorities were at one on that point. He claimed that the Council in consulting its own dignity was best consulting the interests of the people. The less it consulted its own dignity the less the respect that wmuld be shown it. When Mr. Samuel was offered the position he should have declined on the ground that he would be lending himself to an unconstitutional course. The law provided for eight paid Ministers, and so far only seven had been appointed. Mr. Samuel had alluded to the late Mr. McGowan’s occupancy of the office during the time that Sir John Findlay was away, but there was no analogy between that position and the present one. When Mr. McGowan filled the position there was a paid Minister as Leader. Again, in February, when Mr. McGowan acted as Leader, Parliament had met for a specific purpose only. It was different now, Parliament had met for the transaction of business. He made it clear that he would de delighted to welcome Mr. Samuel to the position if he came as a Minister. He knew of no one in the-Council who was better qualified or more entitled to lead, but it was only light and proper that a definite time should be stated when the Council would be furnished with its constitutional rights. He supported Mr. Jenkinson’s amendment because it aimed at giving the Council its constitutional rights. The Hon. Sir George McLean endorsed what the last speaker said. They had received a great many rubs of late, some almost insults, and it was about time they asserted their rights. It was highly important that the Council should conserve its dignity. No one would be more ready than himself to help to tide over a temporary difficulty. He had no hesitation, however, in voting with Mr. Jenkinson, and he thought the hon. gentleman deserved credit for bringing the matter up. What would the outside public think of the Council if it did not conserve its dignity ? The Hon. J. Rigg said that in conserving its dignity, the Council had to see that it did not lose something. They would be striking without arbitration. (Laughter). The political position was so unsettled that the Government might have a difficulty in getting a Minister to act as Leader of the Council. In his opinion the ordinary formal business should be transacted, but the Council should decline to pass any policy measures after a reasonable time if the position was not altered. Ender the circumstances he would have to vote against the amendment at this stage though he was in sympathy with the principles underlying it. The Hon. J. T. Paul declared that he would vote for the amendment. He was more concerned about the usefulness of the Council than its dignity, but how could its usefulness be developed under the present conditions. To-day the position of the Council was at a lower ebb than it had ever been before, and last year the hon. gem if man had complained about the manner in which the Council had been treated over the Coronation. Personally he was prepared to vote at any time for the abolition of the Council, but :-o ■ long as it did exist he considered I it should be made as useful as possible. He had seen the late Mr. McGowan hanging round the Cabinet door waiting for instructions, i How could a man lie truly Lender! unless he was a member of the Min-1 istry I The Council should show in i some tangible way that it did not [ propose to accept every indignity; that had been heaped upon it. ; The H on. W. C. Carncross su’d that the speech which appealed to him was the commonsense one deliv- [ cred by Mr. Rigg. Outride the; newspapers, at all events some of them, were greatlv concerned about ; the dignity of the Council. These ! very same newspapers were in the

habit of be-spat tering the Council all kinds of criticism. Was the xi’ouneil going to suffer indignity when Mr. Samuel was in the chair, and because ho had the courtesy to accept his present position temporarily in order that the Government of the dav might tide over the difficulty? Was it to be presumed that

there was only one gentleman in the country who was prepared to act in similar circumstances, no matter what party was in power’ Wa; it to be assuim d on the contrary that they were a miserable lot of party hacks The Council should be Samuel, m reply, would be unable to the position. The Hon. C. Baillie pointed out that one of the items on the order paper was the Address-in-Reply. and it was quite apparent that Mr. Samuel, inreply, would be unable to answer any questions raised. The Hon. H. F. Wigram said there could be no question that the Council was entitled to be led by a Minister of the Crown, but he held that the position in February was exactly the same as that which existed to dav. The Council should show the same courtesy to the Mackenzie Government as it did t< the Ward Government. If it did noi do so it could fairly be said that it was lending itself to party politics. Tnc passing of the amendment would be used against the present Government from one. end of the country to the other.

Mr. Jenkinson: Is that why y.*u are sticking to it I Mr. Wigram denied that he -ms sticking to it. After the no-confi-dence motion was disposed of lie would be prepared to support s>t *>. an amendment as the one before the Council if a Minister was not appointed as Leader. He also i.adetstood that Mr. Samuel had rta'.ed that he would not occupy the position after the no-confidence motion had been decided. Mr. Samuel : That is so.

The Hon. W. Beehan thought Mr. Jenkinson was very ill-advised in his attitude at the present time. The Hon. S. T. George stated that the occasion was an exceptional one, and he did not think any better arrangement could have been made. Standing Orders provided that messages from His Excellency the Governor to the Council had to be delivered by a Minister, but the acting-leader could overcome this by moving the suspension of the Standing Orders. The Council might very well set up the committees without in any way losing any of its dignity. The Hon. H. Baldey expressed somewhat similar views.

The Hon. Major Harris considerc 1 the amendment was virtually a vote cf want of confidence in Mr. Samuel and this after he had been praised to the skies. There were no party politics in the Council, and he would like to ‘see the tradition of the past maintained. The ncn-appointment of a Minister as Leader might result in the saving of a salary which could be spent in the backblocks. He added that he agreed with the principle expounded by Mr. Jenkinson.

The Hon. C. H. Mills informed the Council that he was perfectly satisfied at the present time to see the Hon. Mr. Samuel in the position of Leader. On a division the amendment was defeated by 17 votes to 7, the minority consisting cf Messrs. Jenkinson, Paul, Luke, Johnston, McLean, Callan, and Bailie.