HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume I, Issue 8, 22 August 1861, Page 5 (Supplement)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Thursday July 18, 1861. The House met at 12 o’clock. customs’ tariff. Mr. O’Neill asked the hon. the Colonial Treasurer, Wether or not it is the intention of the Government to introduce during the present session a measure for amending the Customs’ Tariff. The hon. member said it would he easily understood why he put this question a second time on the paper. Some of the gentlemen at the Treasury Bench wore known to hold different views to the late Government with regard to the existing Tariff; and it was only fair to the House and to the public that they should be apprised of that fact. Out of doors some of the members of the Government had expressed different views, and he thought it fair that they should know what their intentions were on this matter. Mr. Wood, in reply to the hon. gentleman’s question, said he should take no notice of reports out of doors; they, the present Ministry, had heard uotliing of such reports. On Tuesday next they had promised to lay their financial statement before the House, and he should take that opportunity to explain the line of policy in this respect which they intended to. pursue. IMPRISONMENT FOE«DEBT. Mr. Brandon moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Ordinance of the late Legislative Council, intituled “An Ordinance for the relief of persons.imprisoned for debt.” The hon. member, in support of his motion, observed that the District Court Act of ISSB had deprived people imprisoned for debt of several privileges which, they were entitled to previously. His object in submitting this Bill was to restore those privileges, and also to introduce other provisions, which would be found an improvement (o the law now in force.—Leave granted. The Bill was then brought up, read a first time ordered to be printed, and to bo read a second time on Wednesday next. WASTE LANDS ACT, 1535. _ Mr. Ormond moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the purpose of extending the operation of clause 15 of the “Waste Lauds Act, 1858,” to the Province of H awke’a B ay. The hon. member observed that this Bill was to enable certain persons to take advantages of the clauses in the Act of 1858 relat-

ing to Naval and Military settlers.—Leave granted. The Bill having been brought up, was read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on Wednesday next. NEW ZEALAND FENCIBLES. Mi’. O’Rorke moved that tho Land Claims Commisssoner'a Report on claims of certain Pensioners lately serving in the New Zealand Fencibles be ordered to be printed.—Seconded by Mr. Mason. —Agreed to. NATIVE AFFAIRS. Mr. Dillon Bell moved the resolution of which he had given notice : —That the memorandum of His Excellency the Governor on Native affairs, recently laid on the table, be translated into Maori; and that an address be presented to the Governor, requesting he will cause the same to be transmitted to the principal chiefs in this island.” DUN MOUNTAIN BAILWAY. Mr. Domett moved the second reading of the time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday next. the waitaiu question Mr. Cableton moved an address to His Excellency tbe Governor, requesting that a copy of the official report of the investigation of Title at the Waitara, up to the time of the interruption of it, mentioned in the terms offered by the G overnor to the Waitara Insurgents, belaid on the table of the House. The question was put, and a division called for, which resulted in ayes 28 and noes 13, and tho motion was consequently carried. Tuesday, July 23,1861. The House met at 12 o’clock. Mr. Harrison was introduced to the Speaker by Messrs Fox and Feat hers ton, and took the oath and his seat for Wanganui. CONSTITUTION OF JURIES. Mr. A. J. Richmond asked the lion, the Attorney General, if it is the intention of the Government to introduce any measure altering the present system of constituting Juries ? The hon. member’s reason for asking this question was in consequence of great complaints having been made against the present mode of constituting Juries. Whole families had been placed on the list in alphabetical order —which had caused considerable loss and inconvenience in causing several members of a family to be on the Juiy to the neglect of business—audit was otherwise objectionable inasmuch as it left important cases to be left, or nearly so in the hands of one family. Mr. Fox admitted that this was a question of considerable importance, that in instances where several were taken from one family, thereby causing business or farming operations to be neglected lor the time being. The existing system was in this respect objectionable, causing as it must do, great inconvenience—the Government would give their earliest attention to it. STEAM POSTAL COMMUNICATION. Mr. Firth brought up the report of the Steam ’ Postal Committee ; and moved that it be printed— Agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY. Mr. Brandon asked for the extension of another wee' for the Report of the Committee on the Lam. Registry and Survey Correction Bills—Granted. FENCING BILL. Mr. Wilson moved that the second reading of this Bill be postponed till Thursday next. Mr Renall advised the hon member to withdraw the Bill altogether, believing that it was impossible for this House to agree to a fencing bill —what suited one Province would be objectionable and not at all applicable to another—and it would only cause endless confusion. It was one of those questions that could be much better settled by the Provinces themselves ; this House could not legislate upon it without the danger of its coming into collision with the whole of the Provinces. Mr. Saunders put this bill through a close scrutiny, and instead of showing in the usual manner the merits and demerits of it, in dwelling on the various points clause by clause, the hon. member contended that the Bill possessed no merits, but all demerits, and in a variety of ways inadequate to accomplish the object intended. It made no limit —if one gentleman thought proper to build a fence ten feet high, not confined to any description he could come on his neighbor for one half; it made no difference between a made fence and a grown fence. He very much mistook the disposition of the House if hon. members would agree to consider tills Bill at all, or have anything to do with a Fencing Act. A Fencing Bill would be much better dealt with by a Provincial Council. He agreed with the member for the Hutt, that almost every man required a different fence ; in one place he would require a thickly wooded fence, while in another, as at Auckland, he would perhaps prefer one of stone. In fact, it was a subject which (,‘oiild not be dealt with by tbe House, and he was in favor of kicking out the Bill at once. Mr. O’Neill could not assent to the language of the lion, member who had just sat down. Ho 'thought it was language of rather a coarse nature to talk about “kicking out a Bill,” such as ought not to bo applied to any measure brought by any hon. member before the House. He might say that Ik; could not agree to any Fencing Bill ; he* was in favor of no compulsory measure of this kind as it was liable to give the wealthy man a power of oppression ever his poorer neighbor, in putting Mm to a great expense at a time when lie was least able to afford it. Men should fence in their own cattle, and for the preservation of their own without interfering with their neighbors. Mr. Fox referred to the gross language of the hon. member for the Northern Division, such as “kicking out a bill.” Had he talked about cowards, slaves, and knaves, or of knocking tlie brains out of a bill, or of a bull in a china shop, it might have been excusable. He thought the lion, member for Waimca deserved a severe castigation for using such expressions as “ kicking out a bill" [laughter]. It appeared that both sides of the House were opposed to this bill. They could not proceed with it without wasting the time of the House, which, he could assure them, was not the ciesirc of the Government : i 1 n-y wished to proceed with the consideration of more important measures, Buch as the new Estimates —the New Provinces Act. If the Government were not thwarted hv a

great amount of talk they would bring tho business of the session to a close in a short tine. They were desirous of affording every opportunity of pushing forward the business, and therefore hoped there would be no cause of delay. They (the Government) would work day and night for that purpose. He would move that the Fencing Bill be read this day sis mouths.

Mr Wilson replied to several of the objections which had been raised against the Bill, and observed that he could show cases in which, instead of his Bill injuring the poor man, it would be a protection to him, and that the hon. member for Waimea was no more inclined to remember the poor man than he (Mr. Wilson) was himself; however, out oi respect for the feelings of the House, he had no desire to proceed with it. Mr. Fox withdrew his amendment. Mr. Wilson moved instead, That the Order No. 2, second reading of the “ Fencing Bill”, be discaargcd from the paper.—Agreed to. debtors’ and creditors’ compensation bill. On the motion of Mr. Brandon this Bill went through a second reading, and was ordered to be further considered to-morrow. resident magistrates’ op.dinance amendment BILL. On motion of Mr. Fox the House went into Committee on the whole on this Bill. It was reported without amendments, read a third tune, and passed. THE OTAGO AND SOUTHLAND PUBLIC DEBT APPORTIONMENT BILL. Mr. Bell observed that a quesion had been raised concerning this Bill, and begged leave for it to be reported on Friday next. —Agreed to. DISEASED CATTLE. Mr. Fox moved the second reading of the Prevention of Importation of Diseased Cattle Bill. After remarks from Messrs. Stafford, Saunders, O’Neill, and Kettle, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be further considered on Friday next. NAVIGATION BILL. On motion of Mr. Fox the House went into Committee on this Bill'. Reported with amendments and to be further considered tomorrow. REGISTRATION AMENDMENT BILL. On motion of Mr. Fox the House went into Committee on this Bill. Mr. Saunders came forward with several amendments, which were accepted by the Committee.— Bill reported, and the amendments to he considered to morrow. Business of the day resumed. CHARGE AGAINST MAJOR COOPER. Mr. Fox asked that the leave of the House be given to Mr. Speaker to return to the Government tbe documents laid on the table of this House relative to the enquiry into the conduct of Major Cooper. Some discussion then ensued, at the end of which— Mr. Fox made a forcible reply, and tbe motion was carried, only two “ Noes” being given. MR. HUDDLE’S LETTER TO THE GOVERNOR Mr. Fox moved that the letter of the Rev. Mr. Buddie to his Excellency, laid on the table of this House, be printed.—Agreed to. WAITARA QUESTION. Mr. Carleton moved an address to his Excellency the Governor, requesting that a copy of the document setting forth the boundaries of the block purchased by the Government at Waitara, and read to the assembled natives by Mr Parris, on the 29th of November, 1859, would be laid on the table of this House.—Motion agreed to. Wednesday, July 2-1-. DUN MOUNTAIN RAILWAY BILL. On the motion of Mr. Domett the House went into Committee on this Bill, which was reported by the Chairman without amendment ; read a third time and passed, and ordered to be taken to the Legislative Council to pray their concurrence therein. PAPERS. Mr. Mantei.l laid on the table copies of letters addressed to the Governor by Wircmu Tamihana Tarapipipi, Wiremu Maihi Te Rangikaheke ; also, copies ofccrtainprivatelctters addressed by Wiremu Maihi Te Rangikaheke, Tawari Kini, Wetini Te Ran, and Wiremu Tamihana Tarapipipi, to Messrs Fox and Dillon Bell. EUROPEANS SUING IN THE KING’S RUNAXGA. Mr. Wells asked the Attorney-General, If the Government have received information of the fact that several Europeans at Otaki and elsewhere have summoned natives to the King’s Rnnanga for debt ; and if so, what action he intends to take in the matter. He (Mr. Wells) asked the question from having seen a newspaper paragraph stating that a Native Court was established at Otaki, and that Europeans had taken advantage of it to sue natives for debt. He bad been informed that this m bs n°t the only instance : and believing it was inimical to the supremacy of tho Crown, and might interfere severely with a peaceful settlement of the Native question, he wished to know what action the Government would take with respect to it. Mr. Fox »aid that while tho late Government was in office a letter had been reeieved from the Resident Magistrate at cllington, calling attention to the iaet that persons named Ea ,r er and M estcott had sued natives in the Native Runanga at Otaki. As far as he was aware this was the only instance that had been reported to the Government, though ho had seen a report in the newspaper of a case occurring in tho Rangitiki district, where a white man was summoned by a native for killing a bullock, an award was made" and submitted to, fees being charged on the same scale as in the Resident Magistrate’s Court. The latter part of the hon. members question involved many nice points of law and of expediency. The offence might be interpreted to be what lawyers called “high misprison and though ho committed himself to no opinion on it, he was rather inclined to think it was an offence against the prerogative of the Crown. But on the other hand it mi’dit bo considered’merely ns voluntary action of tlie parties concerned, wmeli migiit be resisted or derived at pleasure, and in that case would not be an indictable offence. But if it were indictable, it was not tlie intention of the Government in this case to put the law in force, for they considered it inplace where tills occurred (Otaki) had been left lat. terly in a state, of absolute and entire neglect as to u*ruuitiu, iu wuic.ii persons Ciosuous 10 sue Tor

debt might appeal. There was not an ordinary Justice of Peace within forty miles on one side and twenty on the other, not a Resident Mag is* trate within sixty miles on one side and fifty on the other. Therefore if parties were so foolish and indiscreet as to take their, causes to the Native Court, it would be very harsh of the Government, having so neglected the district, to enter a prosecution against them. Secondly, by so doing, the conduct of the Government would be inconsistent, they having some three on four months ago winked at the erection of a flagstaff bearing the King’s flag, at Otaki. In the third place, if Government took any steps in this case, they must proceed against all the Native Courts in the Island, n hether resorted to by Europeans or not, which would be impossible. The only way of getting rid of Maori Courts would be to get rid of the obnoxious part of the King Movement and take advantage of these Courts, which, were a most .uti i .ll ab 1 1 feature in the present state of the native mind, and work them in connection with British Institutions. ILLEGAL EXPENDITURE. Mr. Cahleton moved, “That there be laid on the table a Return of the amount of Expenditure not previously authorised by Appropriation Act, incurred by the General Government during the period commencing on July Ist, 1856, and ended September 30th, I 86 0; also a Return of the amount of Expenditure, not previously authorised by Appropriation Act, of the several Provincial Governments for the same periods, or up to the latest date at which such Return can be furnished.” A return of the same nature had been moved for last session, but the Return when brought up was exceedingly erroneous, as it failed to contain expenditure which was afterwards authorised, while ho was of decided opinion that all expenditure not previously authorised was illegal, and could not be legalized by a bill of indemnity. Under that interpretation an enormous amount of monev would be found to be illegally spent, which he wished to obtain a Return of, as it would throwlight on the Bills introduced by the late Government and the present. He had copied the words of tlie former motion, but substituting “ not previously authorised” for the word “unauthorised.” . Mr. Richmond seconded the motion, and remarked that the Return should now be made to contain expenditure authorised by the Legislature during the currency of the financial year, as last sos'ion, when expenditure was going on while the Estimates where passing through the House. Dr, Featiiehston was aware the Return laid on the table was very inaccurate. There was one very gross inaccuracy, the omission of the unauthorised expenditure of the General Government for a period of eleven months. The return should be prepared as speedily as possible, but the Returns from the Provincial Governments could not be obtained tills session. Mr. Stafford said tho instance referred to was entirely overlooked in the complication of the Return. He then referred to the expenditure mentioned by Mr. Richmond, and suggested that tho motion should be made to include expenditure before the passing of the Appropriation Act, which should he placed in a sepai’ate column. Mr. Cahleton found it impossible to make the amendment suggested, but the Provincial Legislatures might volunteer as much additional information as they chose. He would leave the motion as it stood.—Question put and agreed to. provincial audit bill. Mr. Fox, on moving for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the Audit of the accounts of the Provincial Governments, said he should not at present go into the subject matter of the Bill. There were Bills having the same object now before the House, introduced by the late Government, and he would propose they should be considered together tomorrow. Leave granted, bill brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be printed. Mr. Fox moved that it be read a second time tomorrow. Mr. Stafford thought they should have more time to consider tho Bill, which was not yet in their hands. He proposed Friday. Mr. Fox assented. Bill ordered to be read a second time on Friday next. MESSAGES FROM DIS EXCELLENCY. Message No. ‘J was received from the Governor, transmitting tho Estimates for the year ending June*the 30th, 1862. Ordered to be considered in Committee of Supp!y. Also Message No. 10, transmitting Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure on account of the year ended June 30th, 1861. Ordered to be considered in Committee of pbaudit act, 1858, amendment bill. Mr. Fox moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the “Audit Act, 1838.” Leave granted, hill brought in, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on Friday next. ORDERS OF THE DAY. LAW PRACTITIONERS’ BILL. Mr. Russell brought up the Report of the Select Committee on the Law Practitioners’ Bill. Bill ordered to bo committed to.morrow, and the Report of the Select Committee to be referred to the Committee of the whole House for consideration. NATIVE CROWN TITLES BILL. The House went into Committee on this Bill, and some amendments having been made, the Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again. Ordered to lie further considered in Committee on Tuesday next. LAND REVENUE APPROPRIATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Dr. Featiierston, on rising to move the second reading of this, bill, said, if the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Richmond) had not intimated that he should oppose it, lie (Dr. F.) would not have made any remarks in support of it. This Bill was twice carried in this House last session, the first time by a large majority, the second without a division, and was both times rejected by the Legislative Council. There was carried at the same time an address to the Governor to cause the repayment to the Provinces impounded under the Act of 1858, Just before tho close of the ses-

sion the majority which had carried those Bills insisted on the repayment of £39,000 of surplus revenue, and also that provision should be made in the Appropriation or Loan Act for the impounded sixths, amounting to £25,000. The Colonial Treasurer at first refused ; but being in this difficulty, that neither Loan Bills nor Appropriation Bill were passed, and the House would die a natural death in a few days, after a stormy discussion, it was agreed that the Treasurer should pay the £38,000 of surplus revenue, and that the reserved sixths should remain over to the present session. To that certain conditions were attached. The members for Canterbury' and Otago pledged themselves to support a similar measure, if they had again seats in the House ; the hon. gentlemen then at the head of the Government promised to offer no further opposition, and the Colonial Treasurer made a statement to this effect —that, if a new House should approve the principle of the Bill, no opposition should be offered on the part of the Government in the other House, and that it would be unconstitutional if the other House in such a case persisted in throwing out the BUI. The hon. member for Omata also promised to support it, and he (Dr. Featherston) called for the fulfilment of all these promises. The hon. member (Dr. Featherston) then went into an argument in favor of the bill, in which he urged that the Act of 1858 was passed in the absence of all the Wellington members but the Speaker, and that it was a decided infraction of the compact of 1856, and quoted from the Resolutions, from Mr. Sewell’s speech of that time, and the Colonial Treasurer’s Despatch asking the Home Government for the gauranteed loan, to show that it was intended to he a permanent and irrevocable arrangement, and by which the management of the waste lands was transferred to the Provinces, and the land fund made Provincial Revenue. Setting aside other grounds for the repeal of this Act, he simply asked the assent of the House on the sole ground that the Act of 1838 was a distinct violation of the Resolutions of 1856, and an infraction of the contract then entered into by the Middle and Northern Islands.

Mr. Richmond entirely disclaimed an insinuation made by the Colonial Secretary that ho (Mr. R.) had the least desire to interfere with the financial arrangements of 1856. He had voted for those arrangements not because he had thought they had would be more profitable to the Northern Island, but because they were just and founded on true principles of Colonial policy, and they had in reality proved more advantageous to the Northern Island than they had at the time any reason to expect they would be. He appealed to the House if he had ever given any justification for the imputation that he was desirous of invading the rights of the Provinces to their land fund. If it could be shown that the Act of 1858 was either unjust or impolitic he would assent to their repeal. He contended that the Act did in fact give legal effect to the resolutions of 1856, and was in no way opposed to them ; that there was nothing i.i those resolutions to hand over the land revenue unconditionally to the Provincial Governments, though it did to the Provinces ; but it had always been understood that the fund was to be acministered by the General Government. As to the irrevocability of the contract, the 17th resolution provided that the entire scheme was to remain open for the revision of the General Assembly if an Act of Parliament were not obtained confirming it, which never was obtained ; and the 6th resolution declaring that the expenditure of the £IBO,OOO loan was to be made subject to such conditions the Legislature might direct. With that authority the Sixths Act was passed, which was intended to create a circulating fund for the more complete extinguishment of Native title. It was contended that the bill was an infraction of the rights of the Northern Island, but the Auckland members were present when it was passed and made no objection. He protested against those arrangements of 1856 being styled a compact, for the members for Otago and Wellington were dissentient from it, and could therefore not be parties to it as a contract. He advised the Middle Island members to disregard the threat of the Colonial Secretary, who would never have the power to repeal the main principles of the resolutions of 1856. He then referred to the large and valuable blocks of land still to be acquired in Wellington, about Wanganui, Waitotai-a and Manawatu, and for which only £IO,OOO of their land fund was left, and contended that the extinguishment of Native title was not a mere Provincial, but Colonial and even Imperial concern. The present system of land purchase was expensive, but lie was prepared to find any new system equally expensive, involving, as it must, the individualization of Native title, and as to borrowing more money, we were trenching upon the utmost limits of our borrowing power. He protested against the money that should be employed in opening up new districts being expended for the improvement of the old. It was a real Superintendent’s proposition—to sacrifice the future to the present. In conclusion he maintained that the clauses sought to be repealed were neither unjust nor inexpedient, but in strict accordance with the spirit and , letters of the arrangements of 1856. It was an expedient tiling at the present moment to maintain these arrangements, and he should therefore give liis advice against the second reading of the bill. Mr. Fitzheubekt made a long and discursive speech, in which he charged against the late Government that, but for their blundering, the purchase of the Waitotara block referred to might have been completed long ago, and argued that the contract of 1856 was irrevocably binding on all parties, including the dissentients, after it had once become law, though the Northern Island had then made a blunder not expecting it would have cost so much to extinguish the Native title. Mr. J. Ckacroft Wilson thought the Sixths Act was a plain transaction, as men engaged in a joint kept a reserve fund to meet any difficulties that might arise ; but if the members for the Northern I sland had not sufficient prudence to make a reserve fund, he would not thrust prudence down their throats against their will. He should, therefore, vote for the second reading of tliis bill, Question put and agreedto. Rill read a second time and ordered to bo c nam'd ted presently.