AFTERNOON SITTING.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume XXII, Issue 7930, 20 December 1887, Page 2

AFTERNOON SITTING.

I The House re-assembled at 2.30 p,in. in 1 committee on THE ESTIMATES. Mr Fisher, in cont'nuaiion of his remarks on the education vote, stated that the Government had received communications from nieihbers . representing both sides of the House to the effect that if the Government did not press the question of raising the school age those members 1 would not oppose the other propositions j of the Government with respect to education expenditure. Having considered those representations the Government I were wining to abandon the point of raising the school age to 6 years if the House would' agree to the other three points: ' Mr Fish protested strongly against this ] decision of the Government: He thought this was oue pt the points they should insist,upon, and he would divide the committee on the question whether or not the school age should be raised. Sir Julius Yogel was at a .loss to deal with the question owing to the extraordinary attitude of the Minister. Large changes had practically been made by the Government without the authority of the House, and he contended that those changes could not be made without an Act of Parliament. It was perfectly clear that the Minister for Education had not the power to fix the age of school children under regulations. He thought as a rule that it was not desirable that children should be sent to school before they were seven years of age, but if the age was increased a large number of children would be debarred from receiving the education which they would otherwise receive. It was a retrograde step which should not be decided except by Act. With regard to the compromise spoken, of bj the Minister, he (Sir Julius) wished to say he was not aware of any such compromise, and he would strongly urge on those members who considered themselves as belonging to the Opposition not to agree to any arrangement whatever. They should insist on any alterations ; being carried oat in a constitutional manner. He agreed with doing away with the normal schools, provided they were done away with legally. If such a large amount as £60,000 were taken from the -Education Boards, it meant reductions of 15 per cent, from the teachers. Why was not such a reduction made from the Civil servants generally ? He hoped the committee would reject the proposal for raising the school age. Mr Fisher said that the negotiations that had taken place were evidently unsatisfactory to both sides of the House, and he .would therefefore ask the Heuse to con°ider the proposals as originally brought down. Mr Peacock was surprised at Sir Julius Vogel's attitude, as although he expressed himself in favor of raising the school age he still advised the committee for party purposes to reject it. He (Mr Peacock) supported raising the school age. Mr Ormond was glad to hear that the Minister decided to adhere to his pro posals, and he was glad because he thought the amount proposed by Mr Fisher was sufficient for the educational requirements of the country. Mr Ormond referred at some length to educational matters in Hawke's Bay, and said that the schools there were [as efficiently taught and well conducted as any schools in New Zealand. Where the schools were large they paid a -higher average in Hawke's Bay than in any other schools in the colony, and where women teachers could be obtained in the country districts 'they were employed with great advantage; that course resulted in considerable economy. In his opinion, a fixed graduated scale of teacher's salaries woula be very effectual, and would be the means of doing away with a large amount ot discontent. He challenged any lion, gentleman to get the opinion of the Inspector-General as >to the general condition of the schools in Hawke's Bay. With respect to raising the school age to six years, in many cases children of that age were unable to get to the schools, and the general belief was that a child could get no real benefit from teaching at such an early age. He hoped the limit of age to five years would not be insisted on, but if proposals were made to raise it to seven years he should oppose it. He was not able to prove to the House that if .the other reductions were made the strict average could be allowed without having some reduction made in the scale of salaries paid. He approved of the reduction of .the capitation to £3 15s, and the raising of the school age to six years. He did not see his way to voting for any proposal to take away the education given over and above the sixth standard, unless tUe primary and secondary systems were merged into one. He held that the Roman Catholic portion of the community were entitled to reasonable assistance for their schools, although he agreed that the present was not the time to go into that question. Mr Bai-ron disagreed with the proposals of the Government, and deprecated such a large question being dealt with at the last stage of the session. He thought the committee would be justified now in saying to the Government that they aid not desire to make any change this yeaiyand that the whole matter should he considered next session. He contended that they had not sufficient evidence before them at present to go into this large question. He would not support the Minister in any of the reforms he proposed, although he would be quite willing to give them careful consideration next session. Mr Seddon spoke on the whole question at great length, and opposed the Government proposals. Mr W. P. Beeves moved to reduce the total vote by £5 to test the feeling of the ommittee on the question. ' Mr Fitzherbert supported raising the school age to six years and the reduction of the capitation by four shillings. Mr Loughrey said it was quite evident from the expression of opinion all over the country during the recent elections that the people would not submit to any alteration in the school age. The people were proud of our education system, and he was surprised at so many members lieing in fav^r of any alteration in the system. He thought a great saving might be effected by the .abolition of Education Boards, but he specially excepted the Hawke's Bay Education Boavd. the affairs of which were said to be ably administered by Mr Ormond, who appeared to have a thorough grasp of the whole subject. He supported a reduction of the capitation to f 3 15s, as it had been shown by the member for Napier that it was quite practicable. Air Walker hoped the Minister would carefully note all the arguments that had been advanced, and come down with more matured proposals next session. The debate was interrupted by the 5.80 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 in committee on THE ESTIMATES. Mr Walker continued his remarljs on the education vote. He opposed the proposals and suggested that they should be considered separately. Mr Allen pointed out that the minimum school age was higher in other countries than in New Zealand. He supported the proposals except that he thought those affecting the average and the training schools might be left over till next session. Dr. Fitchett thought the Government had been premature in this matter, and he urged that it should be allowed to stand over, till next session. He was certain that very large savings could be made withont any of the present proposals. Mr Duncan would not support the proposals unless all possible economies were first made in the system. If that was done thoy could have a comprehensive scheme. Progress was reported at this stage. WELLINGTON GIRLS HIGH SCHOOL BILL. The Minister for Education moved that the amendments of the Legislvtivc Council in the Wellington Girls' High School Bill be agreed to. — Carried. CHRISTCHURCII DISTRICT DRAINAGE BILL. The amendments made iv this bill by the Legislative Council were agreed to. LAND RILL. Tho Legislative Council having insisted . on its amendments to this bill, the Minister of Lands moved that the amendments be disagreed with, and that Messrs M'Kenzie and Beetham and the mover be managers to represent the House in a free conference. —Carried . THE ESTIMATES. The consideration of the education vote was resumed. Dr. Newman disapproved of tho proposals generally, holding that money could be saved from tho library fund, and from higher education which could be swept away altogether. He urged the" Minister to adhere to his promise to drop the question of raising the school age. Mr O'Callaghan opposed the proposals, and charged the Minister with disrogenuousness in saying that a Board had a balance of £9000, when as a matter of tact tho Board referred to (the North Canterbury Board) had had a current balance of that amount for years. Tho Minister of Education said he did not refer to that Board, and he bad said £500, not £9000. Mr Dobson supported the proposals, and Mr Levestam opposed them. Mr Grimniond expressed his intention of voting against the proposals of tho Ctovanunout).

Major Stevtard supported raising the '•"- school age and tlie reduction of the capitationlo£3lss. HedifferedfromtheMinister on the question of Abolishing the normal *'- ' . schools, and on taking the strict average instead-.of-the working average. ' , [Left sitting.]