HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume XXI, Issue 5521, 25 October 1879, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Friday, October 24, The House met at 2.30 p.m.

AUCKLAND CITY WEST ELECTION,

: The report of the Auckland City West Election Petition Committee was brought up and read. The committee reported that the petition was informal, as it was against two members. ■ On the motion of Mr Hislop the petition was withdrawn.

QUESTIONS. Mr Seddori asked whether it was the

mtejniion: of the. Government to ascertain the i *Ml^re of ! , the epidemic raging a^°ng#^ho'fatoives at Parihaka, and wnethfer,'; if /found; contagious, would the rn ern %ri*/$ttKS/preoautionß to prevent t*flsSsffix<A that the epidemic w.i£ of the nature of alow fever, generally known as camp fever, and it was not contagious.

Mr Sutclnaon, asked ..whether.the^Go-..; vernment would; introduce .a measure to define with some-pwoißion what 1 " (iontempt of Court",- meant *;~how- fair its :■!:* judicial interpretation,, should be permitted to interfere with tie freedom of P" bl £,dwcussion 5 whether -4b should or ■ ' should riot be.conaiderod a ; ,uenalpffeW : ' *' and if a penal offence/ whether' il should be competent for.a.judge to inflict punigh- - ment in regSrd ihevebi Summarily 6r6iily ;: under the usual legal^Bafeguarßs wnifih protectthe liberty of/the subject 1 '- ' " •' ' Mr-Hall replied that thewlipTe question' * would be,.considered^dufing''{he recW with the" view di framing ViicliJo.fme.a§i}*-, „. Mr Kelly asked whether jtlie' GoVern-' ment would place a sum on tliej estimated :■ forjthe construction of a light; line of railway from or near through the Waimate/igPlaihs/'Jvvith the view of Settling the i native difficulty onUhe - V. West Coast- on ar^erman^'t basis bv f the-^ locatioli ofa- resident iopu-Vation thereon ? # Mr .Hall' ■repliea^tHat, the' 'whtfle qUetf'^ tion of. the" settlement. of .WWest Coafit v;j ° was under consideration^ 'i. '" c - »^^« r t .".. lf "' . ",'• .•■'••'- ..; ...oiffti r L THEaoVERNCi^AjSfD^^ik <J|M)K»B GBEy.fj/.^ "the Premier aaid^thkifle W*to r -''f asked; to 'lay.^pqu- the, tablensome.cprrgar „.. ,p,ondence,, that, ha^'paßsed . bet^een.^he 1 ' i ' Governor. and.Sir, Geprge.'Gxeyi ■'-^Hi^EjX^f cellency; was .agreeable' ta.jthe.cQrjpspon},',^ dence 1 produced j'butoreferring j.agi'it^ did to ■ a conversation on the licurraoyrof : ji fl whibh they had been unable- to Hagre§j»S; ? his •Excellency 1 'desir.ed, to make am eri-i to dorsetiaerit upon the';papers; i :.' i ; ti r rider ! thbße^>-' circumstances if .?it . George Grey p still :i^ it .the correspondence should be "''*?' produced."" ""' <J ~"" ' - "■"■ '■'"' r: -" ■■ w-isn .. £k George Grey. said he/atill^hoqgh^Xa" 0 desirable that the cprresponden^e'^quid'. • > be produced^; a.. course to Sxhlch'tlie.jPrefjr-.V mier assented;-; s ■; : - ,■•■:•:,,., ...ij i. ; ij,..,/' ; K i, At a 1 later stage of -the sitting Sir George Grey reverted ■to., the >subjecfc..l ;He. BaidjH^ he; would consider such' an: endorsement as". Jiad been mentioned', by • i> "the' J Preniierca. : /i contiriuatipn * of the Jcorresp'on^en'cei 'Snd' 1 ' it would only 1 bV' fair : "that Jhe/should^be^l allowed to state -^any remarks might' 7 "• suggest themselves 'tp'Hinriri 51 respect to the endqrsepdgnt.',, '.. '.,.".■ 3 -^ t . Mr Hall thought Sir George .Grey, had i no claim to have the laßttwqrd.yf^ V'jV^i „ ThesubjecAthe.ndrpppedV^ 7/k;: ' THE ALLEGED JDEPECTION "^OF ATTOKLA.ND

, ■"•■' : ; '-"' i " MEMBERS. --IM- r p • Mr. Hall moved tliaf th^ J .HQU9.ef|o^iptp r?" Committee of Supply. He'saia'tMrtM^ ,jpember_ for Port Chalmers had a mbtion/y' which he : interided''t6 brin^sforwttpa iiiv f conne'otioii ' with 'the^'cjuestioii^-df- ; gpiri'ginto committee, and Mr Macandrew* Jidd ! ; said/that he wciuld go on withihe i "motion "r; at once, and. take" a diviaio^' ■on that:' '':[ motion. The Government • were sorry' that theyt had tdelay.ed thp-; niotipn; biit now they were ready, to talcs . it,- and he hoped the, Opposition would carry out/.-.j their original intention, and go .'.to the , r vote at once, so that business : might not be delayed ' • - ' . r

V'-/i

Mr Macandrewsaidhe was willing that supplies should .be 'granted ■ at' once/and, that the no-confidence- motion/should bY:.;: broughb on immediately tihereaf lev. * ' .;'; ''. ' Mr Hall said he was surprised at the statement jusfc' now .made. But ..for. what^; , the. Opposition had '.stated .'■'pi', pVeyiqiiy" J occasions^ supplies would . have "^ been . already asted for, and some ' very.'iie- r :; , cessary' amounts 1 paid, 'fie would) how- 1 : . ever, be prepared to meet the;originaUy, : expressed wishes of tlie< Opposition^-, and after obtaining supplies move.: thatvalU'.-i further business be postponed so, that the motion might be disposed of at once. Mr Pyke said it had been' rumored iii ; ' the lobbies that a certain section of the House had promised their /voteß to the * Government for a sum of money for public works purposes. He asked if there_ was any foundation for the rumors*

Mr' Turnbull thought that-~tintu an answer was given supplies should ,<be • rer

fused. ' : ' 1. . .- Sir George Grey moved, as an amendment to the motion for going into Com-' mittee of Supply, that all correspondence that had passed between the Auckland members and the Government relating to, the terms on which they would vote for the Government be laid before : .the House,

and if no such correspondence had passed -that the. Government .-state the /terms ■upon which , the Auckland "votes had been promised. He said he was told that four Auckland members had agreed'to vote with the Government in pursuance of an arrangement made with the 1 Govejrnriienry: The gentlemen he referred to l had^po6ed . ■> any coalition until the no-confidsn^ejgtp'-^ tion was disposed of. In these .circum- . stances he thought, the information asked for should be afforded,' so ',th,a*tV all .parties, might know how they stood. ' - Mr Hall submitted that the,araendment

was not in order. It was not : an official correspondence. The ■ .Government had had correspondence with a J great many members as well as Auckland members.

The Speaker ruled that the amendment was in order. ' -■'■'■

Mr Hall said the Government 'hoped to have the support of certain Auckland members. The Government expected nothing leas since they had had time to devejop their policy. .That was all the information he could give.' l ''' " Mr Pitt thought it would be derogatory * to the House to take , notice pfroyery idle rumor that might happen io be 1 flying about the lobbies. , •• > ,-t_s --* :-. Mr De Lautour asked ! the Pouse;*not;t6; assume these rumors to Dec fagts>v It j* would be time enough when thejfli^isiofe took place to draw such, a harsh^concl^ sion. He for one would refuae'tq believe

such a thing. . , . ; ' Messrs Seddon, J. B. Fisher, and Hislop spoke in similar terras'. .', ' [[ • ' Mr Turnbull suggested that if ih'e

Government really had an assured majority the no-confidence motion might be decided by the division about to take place. Mr Montgomery intimated -that- he

would vote for the amendment. — rMr Maoandrew denied' that anything had been said on hiß side. abou<j ( the divir. Bion of portfolios. The intention of the Opposition waa to have .the, vote decided before a word of that kind: was sppken.- ; MrLundon said that if.it waB f tfue!th*at

certain Auckland members jiads; done,. what was imputed to them.he would, make, it a point of voting against them all the session, no matter whethe^ he was adj, vancing the views of Otagp. or of any other place. The amendment for the. production of the correspondence was Joarried' on a division by 52 to 31. : Mr Reader Wood said he was one of

the four Auckland members lttlVibVe<r to/ and was fiotiri^the^leastiashamsdfsoilj^e. position. He: had vlolatecliJi'oj engagf^ ment. On the contrary,' f'Mel '-flubmit-

ted that he had remained perfectlytrue to all engagements he -hath made. When he canvassed the Waitemata dis-

triet he was particularly -cautious 1 Sni-the

pledges he gave, and those pledges were to be found' in his printed address! Tj^ey were that he would support , the IliberaF measures Bet forth in. the /Gdveiiior'^ speech, and that he would a!ccept' V -Sh?, George Grey as leader of the . partyw When he came down to the. House he did'

support Sir George Grey up to Jjhe point when Sir George himself went in opposition to those pledges. He ,djd so .bpth^n public and in private, ; .attendingu Sc'r; George Grey's caucus meetings, and otherwise. He (Mr Wood) opposed the step that was taken in Sir George Grey retiring from the leadership of the party. He said at the time it wa.s not a. right

policy, and urged that Sir George Grey shofild be forced baclc.again to the leadership' of the House; v and ! tlia't f was~'-tho course he advocated immediately after thefeaucus. That fact must be in the tftetaory of hoil members, if they had any tneinory at all. He advocatsd tile necessity dj£Sir~/G.ej3rg^ beingvforced back, agaitt upon *''&<■ JBLaifse;-. 1, Sic Ge^ge himself and Mi Lundon. would bea^jhimoufc in that point. Ho also sup-j poctjed another resolution brought forward at caucus in question — a resolution wliph ,wks aji'avfed'i and" / Carried.' ) That resolution was that there should be no coalitiou. The charge made against him wasijlhat he had broken his 'pledge. '..The. pledge he had given was given under one setfb'f -cffcuhSstances," and . how could it be called, breaking , his pledge ..when the circumstances became'- quite- different? Surely it would nob for" a moment bd contended iliat they were to be bbuftfr as a party together, under .. all Circumstances and for all eternity ! They' 'were told that Sir George's retirement from, the leadership of the party would be followed l>y a large accession of members to its ranks. The fact, however/ was that nearly three weeks had ejapsedj and they found themselves in the same position in which they •were;at firsti It was that which caused him to do what he did not, when he eime to"'. i the- '-House,- intend doing. Then, again, supplies had been stopped, and such being the >case,- lie would like to know how the public service was to be provided 'for-? -He for one was hot prepared to accept the -responsibility that was en tailed, by that course. He.repeated that " "all "these ' facts! 'brought together created quite different circumstances, and he found there was no sympathy amongst theJPppdsitiqn party with his views. He. had'the v 'courage JJ of 'His own opinions, andhe would Bay that lie had' apted perfectly right. He knew that- he would be branded as ac.traitor.on the one hand,;and lie might expect to be lauded -as a benefactor on the others ~Fov his own, part, he was alike indifferent; to. both expressions' "of opinion. ' There were not now in the •E^gglv^P parties.' Thero wa3.no. real difference /betw.eeniniemlbersi as both sides of the House had accepted a Liberal programme. Both .parties were agreed that the financial atfairs-of the country were in a sad condition,Tand'that those -affairs reqgi^dj.the,; immediate, consideration ; of all sections -i of ; the.;; House, rand" yet, through;,-:: mere'- ■ personal feeling; thewctklcould»not be --'gone on with, because a deadlock had- been- come to, and if he conld be the (melons of unlocking that deadlock he cared -nothing for the abuse that might be showered upon him, confident as he was that ingoing what he had done /he consulted the welfare 'of the country. _>,li they, were to be dictated to by. one man, and- the wills of thirteen or fifteen membeiuwerejtq be subordinate to that one 'ih'an^th'en those fourteen or fiftpeii : members Tiiio;hfc i go home', leaving.; the one or two men to do-as they chose.He (Mr Wood) was not responsible for anythirig he clid 'ttpany I,mati1 ,mati in the House. He was entirely' free- to act for himself. He : 'was only "responsible to his constituency and to his own feeling of what was right.' I £He >said 7 it was Hot right that the whole business of the country should be stopped, and that people should not bo raid .the money that was fairly due .to; them': 4 THey 1 had heard a good deai about arrangements made or proposed to be made^ He thought one side had very .little to say to the other ori that subject. He would appeal to hishon. friend Sir George Grey as to whether he did not want to make an arrangement with him (Mr Wood); Sir George Grey would remember the occasion. It was was when Sir George sent f.pr,him to. his office and, said . that he* had made' up his mind to give up the leadership jqf> the Opposition- party, and had arranged with Mr Macandrcw thatjhe (Mr Wood) should be Colonial Treasurer." "Now what was the reply he made*!'' He said that if Sir George Grey retired it "would be -contrary to his (Mr Wood's) . views, adding that Sir George must make ,110 such' bargains of the" ,! kind,'" with him. If the House desired ',' 'jit V. lie would go further.' MjpJ Macandrew', had told him that he thought; it was.: a mistake to force the Premiex'shipxupon him, and proposed : that he. (Mr. Wood) Bhould take ■ that office. He- turned these different circumstances over in his own mind, and the result was. that 1 he did'- nob^-feel at all satisfied. He felt' that^Ke' would be- occupying a false pdsition, and that he could not expect to have any control over the House or the Government: Subsequently he Tvent- to tKe/m T ember^for J^ort Chalmers and, told him so. He then repeated that ho felt 'as if he was^placed in 'a false position, and it came to this that at last he did not know whom he really was following. ,He felt he was like a wandering sheep without a .•.;:" shepherd. ; }3ven if theyb-'suceeeded in carrying ; the no-confidence vote, he did not see how a Governmerifc'could; be formed— a Governat;'alli events that • would-- command the con'fi3ence°of the House. • He might be mistaken, but;that was 1 his absolute conviction.^ln those circumstances he' went to'Mj: 'S^arison, knowing him to be an honest, and' independent man, a man who' haoi not only the confidence of his own constituency, but likewise of the whole of the district of, . Auckland. On broaching-his opinions to Mr,Swanson that -member at once endorsed them. Theyitlien^put their heads together, and along with Mr Hwrst; and Mr Colbeck, made-up their minds t® inform the Government that they were ready to open negotiations with them. They saw one of the Ministers, who told'them that if they went over the Government would undertake to do certain' things. The first wa3 that there should be no change -in the present educational system, tlio second that the Liberal, measures should be carried onfci and. the third that an account should be made out showing the expenditure on public works in the different parts of the : colony, and another account showing the expenditure on public works in Auckland; : jand; that if those accounts showed- 'tfra^ Auckland .had not, received a share equivalent to what had been given to .othser.districts, then., in some way Auckland should receive the balance shown to be duetto it.- There was no specific sum stiptila'ted; '-They thought < Auckland had be.en unfairly dealt by, and had not rec<3iveii-/ a . "fair share as compared with the" South. When it'became known that those .negotiations, were going on he was : d'Sy.hy i ! h.ad,"he sought to make' terms Nvifch'the Government when lie could make as good terms with the Opposition. Now, Jhe^ivouljd a,Bk,|Whefiher or not under these ;cij'cu^tiar(ces' ; n'e,and the other members he 'had :j mentioned, . had done right or wrongY So far. then as he was con'.ce^nedc^hat. .was ; .the ;; position he- had Ttaken .npriini the : business. If he was to '-DB-'caliedja traitor and. many other horribl^things sa l idiof'him,'he.'had at least, the .satisfaction of feeling in -his own mind that he had acted honestly and straightforwardly. Under all that reproach, he had made -lip This r mind< to' keep quiet, and to feel satisfied with the -'thought that he had b'ioii'in'stefmental in' some small degree in -opening- the deadlock, and thereby -en- ! ablifig Parliament to; consider the affairs of Lthe^colonyj i ;.,- ,;>..■.,... . v -. ;( ..,.>.. , .' ;, ' Sir George Grey said that he felfc.no angeii atJwhSt "had. been. said.. . ' Hje would •' b f »nfess> however, that he felt deep sorrow. • Hsintendedcasting no reflections whatever on ariyorie; J The last speaker ..and: ho belonged, to the same party. They con : - yeste^djtogether as friends, and otherwise j .ftinducted themselves on friendly/ and conndental terms. Mr Wood had told the House .that, .'a .proposal was made to him that he should be made Colonial Treasurer: • "Ko-(Si? : George) did make the'proposition, _ knowing - that Mr Wood had a natural talent for' finance,' and; that he v/ak .better fitted to go „to '.the country in that ' way than any other gentle- " man of the party. That was a very different thing, however, from asking Mr Wood to leave his party and go over to

one holding different views. They had been. told, that when the fact came to be known that, Mr Wcad waa making terms with the Government he was told thfit he might have made equally good teniji's with tho Opposition. The two cases were not by any means parallel. The Opposi : -,-tion \jjere -jjerfeptlyN justified ,in making a -proposition .itp ptie;;pj. their own: members who had begun to slibw" "sy'iiipVom's of wavering. When they found that such negotiations were going on with the' the Government, it was only natural for the Opposition ito say., Vj Why ; did-i^t.ydu come to U3 'first ?" " It was qrfrb 1 certain that the Opposition had possessed { a tifiajori.ty.of. fiYQJOT six members, but nojtv; that majority had gone over to the. 'Government: --~- The -of. -.those. gentlemen would, ho was sure, givohrgreat shock to public feeling.---/- Mr. Wood had rudely disturbed party -ties. - Ho (Sir George) wold, not" attempt 'to say that in taking that" step 'Mr^Wottd had trot been actuated' by* h'Prfes'ty ofrmotive, stiftMiadi done arid wp'nMHdd.v&JveVy.grleat deal pfj harm, more harm than- any possible good it could do to the otheFsi'cTe.i .•'

The debate was interrupted by tho ad

jonrnment at 5.30.