PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 13, Issue 1054, 4 June 1869, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

WEPNBBDAY, MAY 20. (Proceedings continued froxpJ&bt'KenttilA,") Lease of fydfa, asWoo\\ "\ ! Lieut.-Colonel £ambebt, to I notice, moved-??.,, ?' & *■'?: < Thafe;H fs .Honipr tj»e Superintenden^fwill lay befbre'ihe (jJ£unoti a vptura shawiog the average attfountprf Mint j^dw^u|Hy, and whether eu6h re&i iffiubject to-ftorease, and all and every sum' or eunos of money, paid to any person or pejrions for effecting the lease or the block of land on the left bank ;.of Jhe^Wairoa* river.-^and •alscf'^n^saai of "sums paid to any persons who baye been employed to purchase the said block of land since it has been under lease to the Government, •'■ ■■•' '■- ■ """'" '•■'""■' -v- •'■ ; A .-T^Lr. M'LEAirgaid that the information ' '^crald be laid upon the table. ■^ / Warrant for £6000. - ; •-; Mr. Febabd, pursuant to notice, movefd— : That the warrant of the Superintendent, dated August 28, 1868, and numbered 150, whereby a sum of £6000 was transferred from the Loan Account to the; Ordinary Revenue Account be laid on the table. —He considered it an extraordinary step taking such a sum as £6000 out, of the loan for other purposes. He wanted to i know the reason why the Auditor had not: ; reported upon this transaction. | Mr. Buchanan seconded the motion., i Mr. Obmond explained that the flum- ! ber 150 was simply that of the cheque in the pass book by which £6000 was transferred from loan account to provincial account. The bank was very anxious to get the overdraft rubbed out, and the £0000 was therefore transferred temporarily-,' in hopes, as the finance committee expressed, it, that it would be " refunded out revenue." Unfortunately that hope;"nad not been fulfilled, and part of the amount Was still standing to the debit of jMNrtin-"] eial account. The reason the Auditor Aidnot report upon the transaction was L that the transfer was not effected, by warrant, and he consequently knew nothing about l-.it. ■. Mr. Febabd asked under what authority the transfer was made. ..^ .... „. .. . Mr; Obmond said that the matter was 1 discussed at an interview between the Superintendent, Treasurer, and bant manager, who urged the reduction of the ; overdraft. The transfer .took* place in consequence of that interview. ' ' "Education Bate. ( ; Mr. Feeaed, pursuant to notice, moved—: That tbe- oases in which tbeliability of certain parties to the payment of Education Bate has been submitted for the opinion, of Provincial Soliotor, with his opinion thereon, be laid on the (able. < Mr. Locke seconded the motion, which was agreed to. '-•;,-. Halting Places for Bullock Brays. Mr. Feeaed, pursuanttonotice, moved — That it is undesirable that halting places for bullock drays, cattle, sbeep, &0., should be provided at the public expense. ->•*•■ ■'■' —He brought this motion forward because he w as prevented from speaking on a former occasion by the strict interpretation of the rules of the Council. He could not see why the sheep of the member for Waipukurau (Lieut.-Colonel Lambert) should graze at the expense of the public, any more than the people of Napier should be supplied "with, water at the expense of the province. Lieut.-CoIoneILAMBEET seconded the rhotionjpro forma. He said it was not intended that it should be done at public expense. He had never said anything about artesian wells ; the hon. gentleman's memory must be bad after the dressing down he got last night. Motion negatived. Artesian Well* .' Mr. Rhodes, pursuant to notice, moved— For leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Superintendent to fenoe in the artesian well, TO-EdwawJfl-Bt>reet, If spier. . Leave was granted, aud the Bill ordered to be printed. Land for School and Educational Purposes. Mr. Locke, pursuant to notice, moved — For a return showing tbe different sections of land in the Provinoe of Hawke's Bajr reserved for Sobool and Educational purposes, number of section or block, area, annual rent, name of lessee, for what term leased, periods (if any) fixed for increase of rent ; and also a return of all other reserves in the province/ and the purposes to which they are put. — He said his object was to gain as much information as possible on this subject. Liut.-Colonel Lambebt seconded tHe motion. Mr. M'Lean said the greater part of the information asked for had been supplied last session. He should be glad to. give the hon. member any assistance inj his power, but thought it would be labor thrown away to make a return out to give information already supplied. Mr. CaeiiYon said nobody knew better than the mover of this resolution the facts he' asked for. He gave no reason for asking for the return. The session was nearly over, and the making out of the return could do no earthly good. Mr. Buchanan said the return made last year was incorrect. He did not know whose fault it was, but supposed the person who made out the return was to blame. Mr. Tannee wished to ask the mover if he had any definite object in view in moving for the return. . Mr. Locke said he had intended to bring forward a measure to deal with this question, but it was now too late in the session. He thought the retarn should be made, if only for the sake of information. . The motion was then put and carried. Executive Amendment Act. Mr. BtrcHANAH, in moving the second reading of the Executive Amendment Act, said that the discussion on this Bill had taken place at the time he asked permission to bring it in, He scarcely expected it to pass. He did not think it was all that was needed, but some change was necessary, and it would at any rate, have the effect of removing those gentlemen composing the Executive from their present influential position, and give them their legitimate power only. Mr. Gael yon said he could not see that the members of the Executive had done any harm ; at the same time they had done very little good. A Governor must have a Ministry ; he supposed, therefore, the Superintendent must nave an Executive. It virtually gave the Superintendent the power to gain majorities. If it was necessary for the Superintendent to have an Executive, let them be elected by the Council. He questioned whether the Superintendent would not be thankful to them if they could rid him of these two advisers. If the Superintendent were in the chair, he would have the assistance of the whole Council, and not be hampered by advisers. 'Mr. Obmond said that the hon. gentleman who brought in this Bill, asked leave to do so in a quiet manner, but in his reply had insinuated that he (Mr. Ormond) had sucked his (Mr. Buchanan's) brains in this matter. But he (Mr. Ormond) had had the same views years ago. He had said on a former occasion that the ship should be worked by a captain and boy. Had he been indebted to the member for Napier Country for any of his ideas, he should

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Bar© acknowledged lhem^^;WP^|^M asked why, holding tbese^fcews, «^p^B not join in supporting this Bfil, «%^|^^B he said he hoped in another y e * r^^.sf<?|||S way of making the alteration suggested Dy||| the hon. member's Act. He then hopfeid|g that they would have got rid of the -.g&B&m trouble, of the colony, the Native diflscu|ty;^ and been enabled to give greater attention;^ to the civil government of the provincej|g The reason he did not join with the hon^fS gentleman was that he felt it was a matte£ji of much greater importance at this timegp that tlie Superintendent should hold hi#;| Ssition. jGrreat benefits had arisen from j|j f f M/iean's having held the position onh thid cpkst-from wWch he was so summarily! restored- by . the. . Government. In a few 4 : weeKs probably, that gentleman would be | in the. same position again; he looked ?, upon this as certain* It would be a great ;| advantage to have him holding both the :j office of Superintendent and Government ; Agent. The present Superintendent, were I this Act pissed, ."would simply decline to l take that position. Tobrjngthe Council relatively into the same .position it would be necessary- to reduce the number of members and simplify forms. Looking .< upon the. question in this light, he would | not -vote for the second reading of the ■£ Bill, not that he had any ambition to do % : any shares of the^ executive work of the \ province. If be continued to hold the 1 position elsewhere which he did at present, ] ne would endeavour to simplify the form of government in the various provinces. He did not cafe 1 about the opinion of the member for Te Aute (Mr. Cariyon), bis statements being contrary to fact. He , had never endeavoured to destroy provincial institutions, but to get them put in the best form. ? He always did hold, and now held, that before the province gave up its present? 1 position it should have some, .other plan ready. He was prepared to , join in reducing the powers of the Council; and Kdped soon to see the government of the province on. a more satisfactory basis. Mr! Tannee said this was not a personal question*; it was one of the amount o£ v support the x Superintendent found necessary to carry on the government. It was a questiori if there would be any gain by the proposed changes. "No argu,ment had been urged-; to prove that the change would be for the bejtiier, , with the .Council as at present^qnstiittttedr If the Superintendent were in the chair without anExeciitive, who'would answer questions ? .It had been said that the Executive gave the too much sway; he looked upon tne Executive, with the Council as at present constituted, as free and independent; members, they not being a responsible Executive. Mr. Rhodes said that a good many half-hours had been, wasted over this question ; lie should content himself with simply stating that .he should vote against the second reading of the Bill. Mr. Febabd said they had been told that the gentleman who holds the position of Superintendent would not continue to do so without an Executive. He (Mr. Eerar'd) considered that the balance of votes given by the Executive rendered members who wished to oppose them powerless. The Executive Council being nominated by the Superintendent, it made very little difference whether they bore the name of Executive Council or not. They could be consulted just the same. He said last session, and was of the same opinion still, that there were things which ought not to be left in the hands of the Superintendent. If the Executive were abolished, it would be necessary to have more frequent meetings of the Council. He should vote for the second reading. The Council then divided, and the motion was lost on the following division ; — AYE-~Mr. Ferard. Noes— Messrs. M'Bean, Ormend, Parsons, Kennedy, Locke, Tanner, Dolbel, Wood, and Weston. ' 'Ratification Loan Appropriation Bill, Mr. M'Lean moved the second reading of this Bill. He said that as the Finance Committee, in their report, had explained the matter so fully, ifc was unnecessary for him to enter into any explanation then. . . Mr. Buchanan wished the Government to bring down a detailed statement of how the money had been spent ; also of what public purposes would have to be foregone in consequence. Mr, Obmond said that he supposed the Council understood the Bill. In 1868, strong action was taken by the General Government against the overdrafts of the Provincial Governments ; they said they would not give their consent to Bills authorising overdrafts. This having come to the knowledge of the bank manager, he was anxious that the overdraft of this Province should be reduced. At this time, a large sum of provincial money came into the hands of the bank, and the sum was transferred by the Superintendent's cheque. He supposed the matter happened somewhat in this manner. The < bank manager said — here is a large sum of money which you are not likely to want for some time, you had better apply it to reducing your overdraft* The Council was asked to pass a Bill to provide for the diversion of expenditure this involved, which in ordinary times would not have arisen. ' The Government proposed to lessen the amount of estimate for the purchase of native lands to the extent of the sum sd diverted. Mr. Febabd ,, was surprised that the Government brought forward this proposition in such a barefaced manner. He considered that some details should be specified in the Act. He doubted much if the Governor would be recommended to approve of tlie Act in its present shape. Mr. Obmond explained that the sum was not for unauthorised expenditure, but for authorised expenditure, which there Were no funds to meet. "-/* The Council then divided, and the second reading was carried as follows :■ — . Ayes — Messrs: Sutton, A'Deane; Tanner,. Dolbel, Locke, Parsons, Ormond, Rhodes, Kennedy, arid M'Lean. JJfoEs — Messrs. Buchanan, Lambert, Cariyon, and Weston. Supply. The Council then went into committee of supply. Mr. Rhodes, in the matter of the petitio'n.pf R. Jefiares, said that Mr. Jeffares held a public house license in Clive,- paying the full license of £30, although business was almost nil, and more flourishing places, such as Waipawa, only paid £20. He prayed that a refund of £10 might be made. Beukers, at the Spit, had a deduction of £10 made last year ou the same grounds. He moved that £10 be put upon the estimates for the purpose of refunding Mr. Jeffares. . ; , . Mr. Feeaed strongly objected; he could see no reason why any such thing should be done. Public, house licenses were fixed at £30, and if the applicant could not afford to pay that sum he should shut up his house. Why the law should remain as it was and special exception made in. favor of .Clive, simply because it happened to have an active member, he was unable to understand. Mr. Rhodes said it was not giving £10 away but gaining £20, as Jeffares would not probably be able to keep open unless the deduction was made. Mr. Cablyon said this was the kind of motion the member for Clive was con-

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stantly bringing forward. The common ' oharacter of his motions was to give some of his constituents presents out^of . the ....... public purse* Mr^eflfef^rn^ecr^ot have taken out a.license if the business di.l ;iofc pay, him; /There were four publicans among his (Mr Oarlyon's) constituents, and he had been asked, to; bring down a petition to have their licenses remitted to some extent..' He refused to present, any such petition, from. a -feeling of. poljtical; hpnesty. He. had presented a petition the other night setting'forth his own destitute circumstances,^ blit-thd ' Council only laughed at him. He was hot a constituent . ., :of the member for ' Oliver's .^le^hada.largo overdraft at the bank^ which he attributed to the mismanagement of the province by the Government, and thought himself as much entitled to come to that Council for redress as Mr.;Jeffares or anybody else. Mr. Rhodes said the meniber who had just sat down was worthy of the appella- . tion of " Coffee grinder.", He had given. , them nearly an hour of the most perfect *' coffee grinding" he (Mr. Rhodes) had ever been subjected to. . The province would gain £20 if thispetition wasgranted, not lose £10, as. seemed to be supposed. Lieut-Colonel Lambbbt said the allusion to long speeches by the last speaker was. like the pot calling the kettle black. CHve was the most flourishing place in the province ;. it had the bestiroads, kttd; the b.est of everything ; it was indebted to 1 .its member for all this... It,rwas : nbt a function of the Council to reduce-publi-can's licenses.' ■}- „ > ' The motion was negatived. • i Ayes— Messrs. Doibel, Qrmond.Khodesy . .W00d,., . ..■■-■• :.;..';,.■.•: •..■'••■•'••••■•• Noes — Messrs. M'Lean* .Cariyon, Lam* bert, A'Deane, Ferard, Buchanan, Tiffen, Parsons, Weston, Tanneri: „.v : t. -:■•- Mr. Cabiton moved that such a sum should be placed upon tho; estimates by, his Honor the Superintendent as the PrbTincial*Ehgineer. may recommend for the purpose of rendering the Patangata bridge passable by vehicles. There would be a pood deal of dairy and otherproduce come into town from the district beyond the bridge ' if it were made pass*bl<& The want of a proper bridge was keeping the district back. Scarcely any money had been applied to this road fur. the last eight years ; he thought £200 would be required for the purpose. Mr. Rhodes said, that after the statements made by the member for Te Aute ie could only, conclude that his facts were weak. There beiug only two or three settlers beyond the bridge, it was not at all probable that any great amount of dairy or any other produce was prevented from coming into town. Mr. M'Lean said he thought the member for Te Aute was aware that the bridge would have to be very much extended. The cost was estimated by the Provincial Engineer at £800. There were no funds available for this purpose. The Engineer reported that a complete diversion of the river would be necessary. /w j...;. r " : ; Mr. Cablyon said he h,ad been informed by settlers that a passable bridge could be erected for £200. He would ask for this sum to be put on the; estimates ■with the understanding that if the work ; could not be done for that sum the money ' should be returned. Mr, Buchanan said that the. Waipawa having broken through, had cut off a good part of the country from communication with town. He thought this. state of affairs should not be allowed to last ; there was an absolute necessity for doing something. In the winter season there would be no means of communication. He should support the motion. The original motion was carried, on the understanding that the conditions suggested by Mr. Carlyon were to be complied with. The division list; was as follows :-?- Ayes — Messrs Tiffen, DolbelyCarlybn, . Tanner, Lambert, Buchanan, Weston, A'Deane. •'•'•• Noes — Messrs. Kennedy, Ormond, Ferard, Parsons, Eh odes. . • The chairman then reported the estimates to the Speaker. ' - The Council then went into committee on the Sheep and Scab Act: The House adjourned at 10 minutes to 12 o'clock. . THtrBSDAY, May 2f. The Speaker took the chair atll a.m. Withdrawal of Scoute. Mr. Dolbel, pursuant to notice, moved — That tbi<3 Council entirely condemns the course adopted by the General Government in reference to the withdrawal of the scouts organised by Captain Weber, on the norjth.. , frontier of this Province, at the/ request of Mr. M'Lean ; and also for ordering the loyal natives of Mohaka to join the expedition at Waikaremoaha while their district was in great danger, and in tbe opinion of this Council if suoh steps bad not been acted upon the attacks on Mohaka might have been prevented. .— :.■. —He said it was rather an unpleasant duty to have to bring this motion before the Council, but feeling that it was a duty he owed to his constituents he would not . shrink from it. After the massacre at Poverty Bay, it would be remembered that, on the recommendation of Mr. M'Lean, Capt. Weber organised a party of scouts to watch the north frontier of the province. This restored confidence in this district. After the fall of JSTgatapa the scouts were withdrawn. About three weeks before the Mohaka tragedy took place, he (Mr. Doibel) applied to Captain Weber to know if there was no possibility of convincing the Government of the danger of withdrawing the scouts. His reply was that it was no use, -Mr. M'Lean had done his best. Then, again, whilst their own district was in danger, the native's of Mohaka were induced to join an expedition to Waikare, having been threatened that, if they refused, they would be disarmed. 1;. Mr. Sutton seconded the motion. . • - Mr. Tanneb said that he agreed r very much with the member who brought this motion forward, but did not consider that this was a proper assembly in which to bring this question forward, The Superintendent and Mr. Ormond were well informed of all the facts, and the General Assembly, was the proper place to fight the matter out. The management bf the East Coast as a whole would be matter for Berious consideration in the coming session. He would suggest to the lion, member who made this motion,' that, it would be better if he were to withdraw it. . Mr. Pabsons would vote for the motion ; he considered that, as he lived in the neighbourhood of where the danger was, he was more capable of forming an opinion than those residing at a distance. Mr. Buchanan said he did not know any action taken by this Council so injudicious as the bringing forward of this 1 motion. It asked- them to condemn the General Government, on the bare asser: tion of one member ; for the mover brought forward no facts to support his assertions, He (Mr. Buchanan) was not aware Wat the Government had told the natives anything of the sort that was asserted. Before this motion was brought forward, the mover should hive been prepared witli facts. His proper course would have been to ; have moved for papers. He (Mr. Buchanan) was not there to defend the General Government; in many instances he was in antagonism to them. Such motions were only broughtforward to serve

~~~~~~ ■ ■ \ *• • private ends. No doubt the msembetf would withdraw his motion. It was &o| worthy of him to &WoW"hiM^\fWmp\it up ns a pupj--i^. Let those. who \ve.rsi;he mo^ivo iijt r take the responsibility. The two gen Ucaen sitting .opposite j (MesS^J. 1 M'Lcn . and Ormond) wwild ■■ go to th& J Assembly and fight their bat^e to. the death. He agreed with tliemi^dping so; if they thought the Government was wrong, it was right in them •to try ati^l. oust them. But it was also true^that personal motives influenced both sides i 'the constant prominence of personal piotives indeed was tearing tjbe country to ; pieces.' Mr. CiSiYON said no'bne^felt more than himself the gravity pf^is^uestion* 1 went with thejinember for Mphaka in th# .spirit of his. resolution. ' He did not thinkthere would be a dissentient voicjo tft-jihe. motion. The whole province hail already' expressed this opinion and presented a petition to the Government, and this .was only going over old ground. TFnder these circumstances, he > lipped the Member would withdraw his motion. Mr. Rhodes would advise the member to adbpfc the course suggested by tlie member for Te Aute (Mr. Carlyon).. The opinion of the whole province had already Lepn expressed, and this was k matter which it was really out of the power of the Council to deal with. . ;:. . r; Mr. M'Lean said he agreed thoroughly with the -motion . of tlie mm. member, as regards the facts. The meiriber for Country Districts (Mr. Buchanan) 'Said that the motion had -not originated with the member for Mohaka. He could-safely ,say that the Government had nothing to do with it. . -.'.:^;r.""- --' ; Mr: Buchanan said he had not-^ecusecl anybody. , J " ",__. Mr. M*Lban considered; that itlie mover ; . was quite justified in bringing '"this sub-, ject before the Council. Members had a perfect "right to bring any expression of opinion forward on matters effecting thgmv selves, and the district they represent.; He thought possibly under 1 the circiimstances the motion had better be withdrawn. . . "'"' ■ Mr. Obmond said he took the* motion to mean something of this sort. The. settlers had had great losses", and it was thought that an expression of opinion of. this Council would aid them in making an appeal to the General Assembly — would assist those who brought the allegations forward. He was informed by the Superintendent that ; it was . recommended that the motion 'should be withdrawn. He considered that to withdraw it now would damage the cause. It wpuld.be likely to lead to the impression that the Council did not approve of it and he was sorry to say there were plenty of persons ' ready to send false information, -to the' damage of the interests of this .ptovince, by which means the Ministry were;: [often enabled to throw aside the representatives of the Provinpe. He considered that the Council, by endorsing this motion, would do g6od ; it would strengthen the hands of the members for the province. . • ■ Mr. Doibel, in" reply, said, that he. considered the unparliamentary languag;e r used by the member for the country dis-. ! trict (Mr. Buchanan) was not becoming. . | He denied that the motion was prompted by the government, or by any other person. 'He' considered that the had a right to express their. opinion of everything which took place in the Pro- | vince* The member then read a letter he j had received from the natives, in which it was stated that they left Mohaka to go up country in consequence of being threatened by the government a^ent that their arms would be taken from them. He considered this was sufficient proof of some part of his mptipn* ,He, considered he was better able to judge of t the -matter, involved; than the member' for the 1 Country 1 district. He sliould press* the motion. The Council then divided with ths following result : — • . - : .- I Ayes — Messrs. Ferard, . Parsons,, Sut-. ton, Doibel, Tanner, Locke, Carlyon, Ormond Ehodes, M'Lean. ! ; . Noes —^Messrs. Buchanan, Lambert Salary of Provincial Auditor. Mr. Febaed, pursuant to notice, .moved — ; That considering that the duties of the Provincial • will be considerably' lighter in future years, in consequence of the great diminution in the Provincial revenues, and considering further that a large reduction has taken place in the salaries of most Provincial officers, this. Council is of opinion' that a salary at the rate of per annum > is sufficient for the .Provincial Auditor, and : requests, .his Honor the Superintendent to urge the Governor,. to fix- the salary at that ral« for the; period in which the Provincial 'Auditor stiair be actually discharging- the duties of the office, and the salary of ; the Deputy Auditor at the like rate, for. , the period durinc: which the duties of Provincial Auditor shall be performed by him, : said that the Audit Act required that the Auditor should be appointed by the, Governor, and his salary fixed by him. He (Mr. Ferard) believed that his salary had. never been so fixed. : ' Mr. M'Lean seconded the motion, which was carried on the voices. Ov&r and Unauthorised Expenditure. ■ •■ Mr. Rhodes, pursuant to notice, moved the following resolution : — ' Whereas the " Provincial Audit Aot 1566" provides that unless an' address to the SSuperr r intendent to sond td the ' Council a recommen».dation to grant a sum'of niopey sufficient to meet $he. unauthorised expenditure, shall be passed by an absolute majority of the entit-e number of ,thp memberaof the Provincial Council, the Provincial Auditor shall com-, mence suits jn the Supreme Court to recover the penalties recoverable under the Baid, Act, for signing and issuing special orders for the issue of money without appropriation. And twhereas it is necessary to release the Superin-. .tendent. from the penalties to which he is liable for such over and unauthorised expenditure, the Cbunoil requests, the Superintendent to submit to the Council a recommendation tp'grant a sum of . money sufficient to meet the said unauthorised expenditure. . The Superintendent requests the Provincial .Council to grant the Bum of £209 10a. Bd, 'to meet the unauthorized expenditure from the Ist July 1868 to the 3 Let March 1869, the same unauthorized expenditure having been incurred on account of the services hereinafter mentioned : —

Mr. Pabsons seconded the. motion. Mr. Febabd said he felt certain that the intention of the Audit Act was that the Council should carefully investigated every item of over or unauthorised expen- ■ diture before asking the Superintendent to bring in a Bill of indemnity. A select committee should hare considered the items previous to the question coming

r bct-Qve tlie Council. ' He moved, *ai(jir[ ] fljftoadmcnt-^ ■-— - - --— «->-<"^- rtwr '^" That the proposed address to his Honpr the Superintendent be postponed until the 'seVei-al items of unauthorised and excessive .iexpenditure be considered in committee 6f ,the whole' Hou^e. '. Lieut. -Colonel Lambebt seconded the amendment. ■-, IJe said he shp.ujs supjJprfc any course which would have^'the effect' of bringing the items before the Council. 1 : ; The amendment was then put, and lost oil the following division ; : — ' : ' Ayes— Messrs. Ferafd, Lambert, Buchanan. ■„.••;.-. ■ / ' :'■ Noes— Messrs. Locke, Tanner, Rhodes, M'Lenn, Sutton, Ormond. .^ Mr. Fbrarp then moved a succession 'of amendments that each item should be struck out. /,',-, . . , '. The whole of the amendments were ■ los£, and the original motion 'put and carried on the voices. ; Peiane and Moiiaka Block. < • Mr. Parsons, pursuant to notice, asked his Honor the Superintendent — 'Whether any measures have. been taken for. the settlement of the question relative to ,the confiscated land known as the ''Petane 'Mohaka block," and if so, what measures, : ■ Mr. M'Lean, in reply, stated that the natives executed a deed .of cession .for the • block in question, subject to some reserves for native prisoners. The question as between the Groverhment and the natives generally was understood to be settled, 'subject to the sitting of: a Compensation Cdurtj, He , understood that Mr. Locke had been authorised by the General .Go'*'verhment fi.naU.7 to settle this question* r "■','.? v r . ■•'■" Credit Act.-, *' '; ' "Mr^ BkobEs - then moved, for leave to "bring- a ßilUo "The Credit Act, r \p>:y \..-/. , „.:., , ; ;: .;... . ,■ ■'• ? Mi*,. Kennedy seconded tbe : motion,which was agreed to, and the Bill read a I ; firs,t,tjme.., „ - ' ■ : ■ - . - . Printing Financial Estimates. Mr. Carlyon, pursuant to notice, moved— r? . >.:•••■ . That the financial estimates as passed by the Council 6,ha.11 ; he printed and distributed as in the case of the iormer Blue Book. ' ~He was prepared to go to this extent. .Every little petition was printed. The Provincial Councils only lasted four years, ! and the resulutions of members were not binding on their successors. The finani .cial estimates, however, should be printed, to enable any future. Government to compare the present' with the past, : ■ Mr: seconded the motion, ! whicli'was agreed to. ..... ; . • Dismissal of Government Officials. U Mr: M'Lean. resumed the debate upon itlie petition of A. Koch, and the following Resolution, as moved by Mr. Buchanan :— r : That in all cases where the services of offi.cers.holding appointments under the Provincial Government are dispense I with, for other reasons than reduction by this Council, the investigation they are legally entitled to, urjj der-the Executive Act, ought not to. be denied. That the denial of such investigation | to Mr. A. Koch, has been an injustice t«> biro, land each injustice ought to be redressed. '—rHe considered it was the. duty of the ' Government to use discretion as to the employment of officials, and denied that Mr. Koch had been deprived of any right. ''He thought he could prove to the Council that such, was not the case. A letter had been written by Mr. Koch, which he had submitted to the Executive Council, .who quite agreed that he (the Superintendent) had acted rightly. The Government were theCbist. judges as to the zeal and fidelity of Government officials. Pie had nothing to say against the professional abilities of Mr. Koch, and was prepared to give a testimonial- to . that effect ; . but the Government charged Mr. Koch, with having abstracted cbrtwn tracings from the Surrey Office, which were only to be seen .afterwards on payment. These were records; which he should have left in the office. to, afford general information, On various occasions he acted in an improper manner ; he used the office for his own private business ; and, generally, showed (Opposition to the views of the Government. He (Mr. M'Lean) should have overlooked much had he not acted as chairman at a ineeting of the Militia and Volunteers, in, opposition j to the expressed wishes of thVGpvernnient, which meeting had had the 'effect of rendering the services of those forces less effective than they otherwise would have been. He. ; "considered . t|ia> any opposition to . the Government by „a£i Qayerntoent^Offic.iM; w,as *in>very. '; bad woulct permit? >Mt^ Koch would himself j admit that he. had been guilty of the "charge^ alleged against him. The Government not under any obligation to continue^ persons in public employ after their services were not required.: A circular letter was sent in 1868 which provided. against this difficulty. He had thought it. necessary in the interests ' of the province to take this step, and, the result had proved that it was well'to do so. Mr. Caelyon Baid Mr. Koch did ..not come here to ask for anything more than that he should be enabled toshew that he was not-dismissed from any moral failing) nor from professional incapacity. . . < Mr. Buchanan said that, after the labored explanation given by the Superintendent, he was clearly convinced that political reasons, and political reasons only, led to the dismissal of a valuable officer. Th'is,deb a ' ie - be therefore considered very satisfactory. . , The Superintendent had touched upon other reason s ; he had alleged employment by private surveyors, and that certain -tracings were removed from the .office.: The tracings alluded to were Koch's own private property. The Government assert that he had taken field books away. That statement he (Mr % Buchanan) was prepared to tell them was false, whether 1 Mr. Weber stated so or not. ' ' . MrJOjttkoND read tho following letter from Mr. Weber,' bearing upon the subject:— .-/" - " ' . Survey Office, ! * Napier, May 26, 1869. • SIR,-— I am sorry to have to luring to your Honor's : notice that this department is at present put to Very serious inconvenience, by the undermentioned oircumstauce, viz. : — " Some tinae ago it was discovered that no surveys of native land, blocks named in the margin (Mahgatoro, Oringi Waiahoue/Ota- j whao, Kaitoki, Taoraiti, Nps, 1 and 2) were in this office, and on looking over the list of plans, surveys, &c, handed over by Mr; Kooh, it was found they were not enumerated therein. On application to J\lr, Koch, he replied that he had taken said plans from said office, which had been considered public property, but whioh belonged to him, they having been made out in private time. Not being able to state that said . plans had been made in. office hours', I pointed out to Mr. Kooh that it was his duty to. make copies of every plan before it left jthe Survey. office, and as he had not done so, merely because be had plans of the above-blocks (being bis own property), the least .that ooufd be expected of him was to lend his. plans to the Survey office for a few days, to tn&ke oopies of theni, hut even thin lie declined. .. I am sorry to have to make suoh an unfavorable report referring to Mi 1 , Koch, especially lifter. ba,viug liad his cordial support and cooperation foi* over five years, when such office was principally' under his charge, owing to my frequent and protracted | absence from town. But as I am anxious that the Survey office should have the necessary plans before my relinquishing the charge of that department, I beg to suggest that you authorise me to apply to the Native Lands office in Auckland for surveys of the above

bjpeJkS^and warrantry of necessary outlay, if "not exceeding £6, for same.— l have, &v., , . CHABLE3 WEBIpB, JC.E.. - . ,K,i '-■'/._•■ .Surveyor. Mr. Buchanan would ask if there was a word in that letter about field books. He knew the exact meaning of the words in thatjetter* ; they were nothing but reck-/ I§SB ; ijiisstatem'entß. The tracings were never th&! property of the Government ; they were private property. It has been customary, for surveyors to send their 'plans. iuto ;^e. plotted; this was done by Mr! S^ooh .in. his own private time. It w.as never done in the Survey office. He allowed the Government the use of the tracings in Question, but, when dismissed at a moment s notice, he took them away ■with Jiihi. It was only in a letter dated this day that r the cause of dismissal has ever been stated. Mr. Weber was appointed chief Surveyor, an office he was" quite unfit to,filj, consequently the duties fell upon Mr. Koch's shoulders. The true secret of his dismissal was hia- taking independent action in public matters. Uven his Honor, had availed himself of Mr. JKoch's. services during his private time, simply because they were the cheapest and b.Qst jthab could ■be procured. He was' possessed of a fund of knowledge which others were not possessed of, and for which, those employing him would have had to pay another man to:ascertain. As to the assertion that it was Mr. Koch's duty to have made the tracings for the Government, he was not afforded time. to. get the records of the office in order ;•. had he been so he would have .done it. Had he receivednotice he would lkve got the plans ready. The lefct6r"produced was" the greatest condemnation of itie conduct df the Provincial Surveyor himself indeed, so far as the survey office, wa^; concerned, Koch was nothing ,but Weber's dry nurse. . The Superintendent said he was guilty of a grave offence in having 1 taken the chair at a Volunteer meeting, but on that occasion he was placed in a position in which ho could not. help himself. A's to investigations, he would ask: what kind of investigation it was when the party whose conduct was being investigated was not present. The more proper, term would be inquisition. He (Koch) had asked to be allowed to answer in person any charges there might be against him. He never until now could get any explanation. Private spite and private malevolence were at the bottom of the whole. He would press this resolution to a division ; he would not have done it had it not been for the assertions of the Superintendent.' Why did not the Government have recourse to the law courts. Why P. /Because they knew they had made assertions -which they could not prove. The '001111011 then .divided and the motion was lost on the following division :-r-- . ./■ Ayes;— Messrs. Buchanan, Weston. . Noe:s.r-Messrs.Sutton,M'Lean, Dolbel, Ferard, Ehodes, Ormond, A'Deane. . Unautliorised Expenditure. Mr. .Ferabd, ' pursuant to notice, asked the Superintendentr— Whether any moneys have been issued by the Provincial Treasurer during the present financial quarter without appropriation, or in excess of the auma appropriated by Act of the Provincial Cpuucil 5 and whether if is intended to Jay the. particulars thereof before (he I Council, so that the Council may, if it think fit, pass such an address as is required by the 14th section of the ♦' Provincial Audit Act, 1866.' ; : — lt appeared to him that, unless the Council authorised this expenditure, it would-be the duty of the Treasurer to pi*oceed against the Superintendent. If there was a^iy likelihood of the Superintendent exceeding during the current quarter thef amount granted, he should bring down an Appropriation Act before tho oloee'ofUlie'Bession. Mr. Ormond said that the Government did not. intend tobring down any account of over expenditure for this quarter. It i would be very light, and, next session, they would bring forward a motion similar to the one agreed to that day. Trigonometrical Survey. Mr. Buchanan, pursuant to notice, moved—- i . That there be laid upon the table a copy of all reports, correspondeuce, awards, or other papers in reference to the Trigonometrical Hurvey lately carried but by Mn. Surveyor Fitzgerald. '— He said he.-had been forced to take up the question from a former observation of the.. Superintendent, I . which was exactly 'contrary, to feck-* that, the best purveyors' had 1 verified the survey in.question. Mr. Park did not measure the work. accurately, .but very? roughly arid imperfectly. He only took two hours over it, and any man acquainted'Vw-ith" 'the subject could tell what his- measurements were worth. He (M.r. Buchanan), maintained that the survey liad never been verified. Let the Chief Surveyo^go out to verify it. When he got the, papers he meant to follow the transaction through' all its ramifications, and prove that the survey was unreliable. Mr. Obmond said ! he 4 would answer the hon., gentleman* although the question he had brought forward was without the Eroyince of the Provincial Council. He ad ventured to make specific charges, but without proof whatever of their validity. "■ Mr. Weber objected to the survey in question.; it was, in consequence, referred to arbitrators, and' he would read the following, extract from- the award of the arbitrators :r-? We. oovi.ify that Mi 1 . Fitzgerald's survey is correct, 'the. mean of measuvemeot at -the. base of vei'ifirat ; 6n being <n it-bio \>he Kant of diffei 1 - , ence pveseriber.l in Ibe sppciuVaf'OU, , Signed,. '. EGBERT Pahk, Y^biiroto-s. .G, JN. Dodd; j • We, the arbitration appointed by memorandum \tt writing $a(ed ox or about the 291h iastant;, do .libveby berlifj 1 tliafc i'he work ooh<Tac(ed Jo? -by. a eei'lairi. specification mentioned in the said memovandiio}, signed by M. Fitzgera'ldj.flad- dated ibe 3rd, day of September," 3.866, Las. been satisfactorily performed. : • Signed, Robert Pabk. ) . „;„.„„ • G.N. Dodd, '} Arbitrators. SOth January, 1868. •Mr. BucHANAN.r^-Are those Governiment papers? Mr. Osmond said they were the property of Mr. Fitzgerald. It appeared to ' him that the only object the hon. gentleman could have in view ,in his coui'se of action was to destroy the credit; of the Province. Mr. Cablyon wanted to know what was the use of having the papers put upon the table. The affair was over; Mr. Fitzgerald was paid, and all the resolutions in the world would not get the money back. ' Mr. Buchanan said, in reply, that there had been a political question before them that day, arid they had divided upon it, knowing at the same time that it was beyond the jurisdiction of the Counc:l. He said that this was a Provincial questipn ; the correct triangulation of the province was of interest to everybody in it. If the survey was correct we were entitled to the money, otherwise we were not, and it was the fault of our own officials. The base was wrong and possibly the angles were wrong also. . The motion was then put and negatived on the following division ; Ayes, 3 — Messrs. Buchanan, Lambert, Weston. Noes, 7 — Messrs. " Parsons, Ehodes, Ferard, M'Lean, Carlyon, Tanner, Suttpn.

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Over Expenditure (in excess of votes)— Harbor Department (contingencies Wairoa) ' „, ...£ 3 6 9 Materials for Prison Labor ... 23 16 0 Expenditure connected with TollGate 13 2 » . . £40 5' .0 Unauthorised (not specially provided for)— Survey Department.;. £7o 10 0 Harbour ditto 78 19 6, Ferries (Nuhaka) ... J4 19 4,?[\ \. Polioe Department ... 416 5 ' ' ', ,: — 169 s'\ £209 10 3