MR. STAFFORD AND HIS CONSTITUENTS.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 12, Issue 946, 26 May 1868, Page 3

MR. STAFFORD AND HIS CONSTITUENTS.

We continue the report of the meeting at Nelson of Mr. Stafford and his constituents.

Mr. D. M. Luckie, who was warmly applauded, said: I know that I show great temerity in rising to address such a large and influential assemblage after a practised debater like Mr. Stafford ; but I have come forward partly because I took a great interest in the Financial Association recently formed, and its objects ; and partly because, on various occasions, I have spoken strongty against some of the measures of the present Government, and particularly the Public Debts Bill ; and because I think Mr. Stafford should have referred to some matters which he has dexterously omitted to notice. (Hear, hear.) The first matter to which I shall refer is the interminable £240,000 of £300,000 saving, and I take this opportunity of speaking of it, because, in the House of Representatives, Mr. Stafford denied the accuracy of his own figures, as printed in the Colonist, and stated that the Editor (that's myself) had drawn erroneous conclusions, or mixed up his own conclusions, with Mr. Stafford's figures. Mr. Stafford : I never said anything of the kind. Mr. Luckie : It was so reported in the newspapers. Mr. Stafford: Ah! that's very likely. (Laughter.) Mr. Luckie : Very well ; it was so reported, I think in the Wellington Independent or Advertiser, but since Mr. Stafford denies it it does not much matter, only as I have the figures here I shall read them : — Savings on Chafes on Annual "Revenue— Executive ■ £ 2,300 Legislative 1,000 Registration '„, 300 Customs 250 Postal 9.350 Intornal Defence 77,300 Native 39,000 Geological 1,500 Miscellaneous 9,525 UnapporMoned „ 4,000 £145,125 These savings would Imvo been added to the surplus divided amongst the provinces. Savings on Charges on Loans— Surveys £10,000 Telegraphs, &c 35,000 Taranaki (Reinstatement) 40,000 Government House and Domain, Lowry Bay 28,000 Miscellaneous 1,250 ,C14G,51G This saving would have avoided a corresponding amount of future taxation of the people. Total savings which might have been effected, and which would still have left the Government more amply provided for than it had ever been before :— Saving on Civil List, say £ 3.000 Charges on Annual Revenue ... 145,125 Charges on Loans 1JG.391 £294,391 Say, in round numbers, about £300,000 off i ho expenditure of the current financial year ending 30th June, 1863. — Every word and figure here is Mr. Stafford's ; it contains no single conclusion of mine ; it is printed from his own manuscript, given to me on the 22nd September, 1865, an hour before I left Wellington — (hear, hear, from Mr. Stafford) — and may be useful to refer to. Mr. Stafford said nothing about the Native Department, and the heavy expense attending it. Here is what Colonel Russell, Mr. Stafford's Native Minister, said in the Upper House some sixteen months ago:— I found in some cases Civil Commissioners with nothing or worse than nothing to do, yet drawing large salaries, and forage allowances, and contingencies ; having also clerks and interpreters, also with good salaries and forage allowances, &c. I found also medical officers who should have plenty to do, but did not do it; with salaries, forage allowances, &0., travelling allowance, allowance for medical comforts, &c. I found Civil Commissioners provided with yachts, each yacht with two boatmen, each boatman with £127 10s. a year ; but the climax of Absurdity was reached when 1 came to the native officials. These I found ranged under the heads 'of Pensioners, Assessors, Heads of Rmiangas, Wardens, Kareres (whatever these may be), Constables, Directors of Public Works, Clerks to Jtunangas. With regard to the pensions, it was not easy to say in many cases for what service they had been granted. They ranged from £5 to £200, and they amount on the whole to £2,400 per annum.

But yet in spite of this, we find by the appropriations of last session, that Mr. Stafford's Government spends upwards of £23,000 a year in the same department, of which £13,000 is expended in salaries of officers, and £10,000 under the very convenient head of " contingencies." It would be useful to have some explanation of this. Mr. Stafford has, he tells us, been reading the speeches lie made in Nelson during the last four years, and he rather congratulates himself on tho accuracy of his predictions. jN t o doubt during this perusal of past eloquence, he noted some points which it would be more convenient to forget. I shall read one or two passages which struck me at the time they were uttered, and which I have remembered during the last few days. In January, 18(36, Mr.. Stafford, who then did not lose any opportunity of sneering at Ministers that preceded him, and their doings, referred to some remarks of Mr. Sewell's on the provincial apportionment of the Customs revenue, which Mr. Stafford was anxious to show he would secure to the provinces, and sarcastically alluding to Mr. Sewell's fondness for staking his reputation, Mr. Stafford said "I stake my political reputation against Mr. Sewell's that tho provinces will have their full three-eighths." This statement was received with applause by the meeting, and what followed it? Why this followed it. A few months afterwards Mr. Jollie, then Colonial Treasurer, made his financial statement, and this was what he said with respect to the thi*ee-eighths of the Customs.

The .Surplus Revenues [left after appropriations] certainly fail to roach that proportion of tho estimated, revenue which it lias hitherto been usual to assign to provinces ; but the time appears to have gone by when the provinces can expect io receive from Hip Colonial Kovfnues tho same rale of contribution as heretofore. * * U. is, 1 bcliov<\ no longer possible for this or any other Government to continue the old .arrangement for subsidizing the provinces with three-eighths of tho Customs. * * The country cannot longer be expected to make contributions in aid of Provincial institutions on the scale it has hitherto been accustomed to do. * * T would strongly recommend the provinces to rely more upon Lhoinsi'lves and their own local revenues (jinil that, interpolated Mr. Luckie, means more local taxes, or lack of important public works'], and less upon the fluctuating and precarious surplus which it may be in the power of the General Government still to continue.

Tli at is how Mr. Stafford kept his promise, and how, as it seems to me, he lost the stake he played for ; because, although Mr. .Tollie was sacrificed, that act and that proposal are as much Mr. Staflbrd's as they are Mr. Jollies, for the act of one M mister is tho act of the Cabinet. I have another quotation, in fact, I wish to give these rather than to say nmch myself. Mr. Stafford in 1803, very seriously warned the electors of JVclson to guard against increasing our indebtedness ; that we had already been too incautious in that respect. Mr. Stafford said then, and said well and wisely as I thought : —

Tho limit of debt should bo carefully guarded, and that limit should be such that in a period of monetary panic or depression, which arises in nil countries in turn, the existing resources should always provide for tho interest of the debt. It will not do to trust in a crisis to dorruantrcsources.if a country would preserve its reputation for good faith. I do not say that this limit has yet been reached in New Zealand, but I do say, if the country goes on increasing its public debts at the same rate as for tho last two years, it will soon be both reached and exceeded.

This is good sound reasoning, and it is a pity it is not more frequently followed. There is a reference to the resources of the country, an exaggerated notion of which has helped in a great degree to induce members, and Nelson' members too, to advooato the running into further debt. Well, after delivering his sound iinancial

maxim what does Mr. Stafford do? Why a lew months later we fi.nd him in Auckland aiding in passing tlic Three Million. L')!in- Act. one grand source of our financial ciimi'ultios and the cause of gross waste. (Applause.) I came upon the writings of an accomplished American writer on constitutional law, and found a sound proposal made, and. which was afterwards embodied in the constitution of the state of ]STew York. This was that the state should have no power to borrow money except to quell rebellion or for defence without first appealing to the people, making the question in point of fact one for taking the sense of the electors on, and settling by a " yea" or " nay" of those really interested in the contraction, because so much interested in the payment of debts — the public at large. (Hear, hear.) Had this been the practice in this colony, the three million loan would never have passed, and the Public Debts Act would not have been necessary. (Applause.) As for Mr. Ward's letter, sent home on the authority of the Minister, and altering the share market as it tended to do, and did, I contend that that letter was highly unconstitutional, inasmuch as Mr. Stafford thereby assumed the functions of the Assembly and took action in a matter greatly affecting the public welfare, and • which ought first to have received the full sanction of the Parliament and the public. (Applause.) Mr. Stafford has repeatedly denied being actuated by any love of office, and I do not like to impute disagreeable motives, but what is it that has attached Mr. Stafford so long to some of his present coadjutors ? I remember reading, and was shocked in reading it, that Mr. J. C. Richmond in the chagrin and exasperation of defeat and loss of office, so far forgot Parliamentaryetiquette and ordinary taste as by a coarse simile to speak of the anthropomorphous tribes, and apply the comparison to Mr. Stafford. Mr. Richmond was guilty of comparing this intelligent gentleman, this accomplished politician, to — I am almost ashamed to say it — a baboon. (Laughter.) One would have thought that it would not be easy for any man, even in politics, to forget such a speech ; but Mr. Stafford forgot and forgave, for he accepted him for his Ministry, and I marvel with what feelings each must have regarded the other. (Hear, hear.) Was it love of office, or what, that brought this strange union about ? But if this be a remarkable connection, viewed in a personal light, what can bo said of the political union of Mr. Stafford and Mr. Fitzherbert. Mr. Stafford, in reading over his speech in January, 180G, could not fail coming to this delicate little morsel, respecting the present Colonial Treasurer : —

Mr. Fitzherbert, although a very clever and welleducated man, was no more iitted for the position of Treasurer of the Colony than the child born yesterday. He made two Financial Statements, but so utterly obscure wore they, that he spoke to almost empty benches, for no one could understand him. Almost all his figures were wrong, aud in a subsequent statement, sent down by last mail, Mr. Fitzherbert had omitted to justii'y a gross error.

This was Mi*. Stafford's decided opinion then, but what happened very soon after ? W hy, this political baby of one day old, this stout infant in long clothes, Mr" Stafford accepts as his bosom friend, his companion "in arms ;" and not only does he make him Colonial Treasurer, 'for which office he was so specially unfitted, but he also sends him home to negotiate the financial arrangements arising out of the most disastrous, as it is the most infamous measure that has become law in JN~ew Zealand ; a measure which was characterised by Dr. Featherston as a swindle and a fraud ; charges which have never yet been answered or successfully repelled. Mr. Stafford deprecates the xise of strong language, and endeavours to weaken its effect by declai'ing that it is iised for lack of argument ; but I repeat this strong language, because I think it properly characterises the act, and not for want of argument, which I shall presently produce. Mr. Stafford in his speech said that, "if no action takes place vmder the Public Debts Act, the country is in precisely the same position as before the act was passed." This I utterly deny. The country is irrevocably pledged. Auckland Provincial debentures about a year ago were unsaleable at £70, aud since the passing of this Act they have risen to £106.

Mr. Stafford : I am very glad that it is so.

Mr. Luckie : Mr. Stafford says he is very glad of this ; and of course the credit of the colony is good, but this only proves that it was good before, and what we have got now, if we have got anything, is a heavy loss. (Hoar, hear.) By the action already taken under the Public Debts Act, the colonj r has been totally prevented from taking advantage of the state of the market and from making conversion of the debentures, unless at a loss of, in many cases, 30 per cent, to the country. (Applause.) Mr. Stafford : How loss ?

Mi*. Luckie : I really never expected that I should come up here aud be asked to teach Mr. Stafford a lesson, on the simplest principles of political economy. (Laughter and applause.) I put it to any business man in this large meeting, if it does not stand to common sense, and common practice, that if you wish to purchase an article which is worth in the market say £70, and yet-, before purchasing at the current rate, you bind yourself to pay £106, do you not make a loss of over 3*o per cent by the transaction ? (Loud applause). This is exactly what was done by tho Public Debts Act, which, by unconditionally guaranteeing an admittedly inferior security, at once raised it over 30 per cent in the market. (Renewed cheers.) Mr. Stafford made no mention of one remarkable piece of financial administration, which was altogether beyond the power of any Government rightly to attempt, and that was the giving of £100,000 to Auckland province on his own responsibility, and without any appropriation or knowledge on the part of the Assembly. (Applause.) Jt strikes me if ever there was a necessity for that oflicer whoso duties Mr. Stafford has declared to be so important — the Comptroller of Jicvenue — it was when he made this unwarrantable misappropriation of public funds. (Hear, hear). Mr. Stafford, while conveniently omitting notice of things of this kind, also does not fail to take all due credit for what he has clone, and something more. For example, the removal of 829 officials during his first twenty months of office, was made to appear as if the army of officials had been absolutely reduced by that number ; he carefully abstained from saying anything about how they had been replaced— (hear, hem 1 ) — and we know very well that a considerable number of these were only changes of men, aud not abolition of offices. (Hear, hear.) There are other subjects I might refer to, but I do not care to take up the time of the meeting any longer, and I thank you for the hearing you have given mo. (Applause).

Mr. Stafford, in reply, said : I am very glad that Mr. Luckio has spoken, because it enables me to refer to subjects which I had thought did not require special reference ; particularly as I did not desire to occupy too much of the time of the meeting. It was not a very successful reference of Mr. Luckic's, that to native expenditure. 1 quite agreed with Colonel .Russell's speech in 1866, the substance of which, indeed, I knew before he delivered it ; and I entirely approved of all he did. The native expenditure before that time

had been very great. 'At one time ifc;jit^|fl reached to £63,000, and it has been cWjij|| clown by the present ministry to £23,0^||| as Mr. Luckie states,' or little more one-third of tlie previous expenditure, -^ Mr. Luckie might have seen, had he read on in the speech, that Colonel Russell had struck off all' these extravagant officials. Mr. Luckie : J^o.

Mr,, Stafford: Well, perhaps Mr. Luckie knows better than I do, although. I have' read that speech more than once. (Laughter.) Mr. Luckie : There is £13,000 for officials, and £10,000 spent'on contingencies. Who gets that?

Mr. Stafford : The natives got a large portion of it; and, after the talk of equal rights for the natives, and the necessity of their being equally Jg-eated, they liave a right to be equally treated now. They* 1 ~ pay a greater amount to the Customs re-*' venue than the whole of this sum together, ij and they deserve some share of what they pay. (Applause.) The money goes to*" - pay native officials, such as those Kwreres, of which Mr. Luckie knows nothing, but which he might have seen were a kind of native policeman, or messengers, who did/ •■* and do, very good service.- Native assessors, also, are paid out of this fund. •'* But great objections as he has taken to the expense of the native management, even Mr. Luckie, with all his omniscience * cannot hit all the blots of the native department (hear, hear), nor those caused; ' in other departments by the peculiar posi- s tion of. the Government. There is no Go*" vernment centre ; a large portion o£ the Government is not under the personal V supervision of Ministers, who are under the necessity of keeping up departments which they never see. For example, there l ;i are nine or ten Registrars of Deeds instead** of one in the Colony. We require more .'- --judges than would be necessary if the colony were differently circumstanced geographically ; and there are many more officials than would be required if our position were similar to that of Victoria:; for, while Victoria has but three or four ports, here in JNW Zealand we have between twenty and thirty. Yet for all that oourr -r Cxistoms expenditure is under that 6r Victoria, for while the latter costs aboutf ■ six per cent, of the reventie, our costs only five per cent. And you cannot expect to have cheap Government while "the .people themselves, both socially and politically, persist in a selfish indulgence in luxuries. For instance, they must have posts up every insignificant valley, and if they are stopped, people complain of injustice without thinking of what such luxuries cost. Then we have a double Government — a General and Provincial Governments, with two sets of officials, two Treasurers, and other officers where one might do. If you must have such expensive, representative institutions — which are always more costly than autocratic ones — you must pay for them. Mr. Luckie takes exception to my having written the letter to Mr. Ward, and yet that very letter stated " *■ the intention of the Government, giving--that preliminary announcement of the proposed measure, which. Mr. Luckie complained that I had not given by. Vord , of mouth ; although in addition to that letter, in which it was stated that the Government intended to make the question a Ministeral one, it was also announced in the speech of the Governor. My* letter to Mr. Ward was also published in the papers, including the Nelson Colonist .. itself, so that Mr. Luekie ought not to have been ignorant of the intention of the Government. Then as regards the debentures of the provinces, I don't care whether a man gives £100 or £70 for my hundred pound' acceptance ; I have to paytfie £100 when it becomes due ; and so with the provincial debentures, they had to be met either by the provinces themselves or by the colony. Mr. Luckie referred to my statement respecting the removal of officials, but he misunderstood, I conceive, what I said. I said, I think distinctly, that 829 officers had left the service. That number does not represent the actual diminution. I said so in reply, I think, to a question as to what offices I had created: I said that only one had been created, the Comptroller of Revenue. These figures do not exactly represent the actual reduction of Government officers. Among that '* number were about 200 native officials who have not been replaced. It is per- „ fectly true, as Mr. Luckie said, that the provincial debentures were unsaleable in the market, except, at a great sacrifice ; and that they were quoted much higher since the passing of the Public Debts Act •>, but what I hold is that the colony lias lost nothing by that change, because to lura only to pay what it had before be^a^M&le' for. And if the provincial bonds sell for a higher price in consequence of the passing of the Act, so much the better for those provinces, as Hawke's Bay, Taranaki, and Canterbury, which, had, in round numbers, some half-million of debentures still to sell when the bill was passed. When I wrote to Mr. Moorhouse and to Mr. Ward, I knew that Canterbury was in a great difficulty from want of funds to carry on her works, owing to the inability at the time to place her loans in the market ; and I have always thought the Canterbury loans were perjectly justifiable, owing to her means. Her bonds could not sell in the London market unless at a great sacrifice, and there was an absolute necessity that funds should be forthcoming for Canterbury, otherwise thousands of people would have been out of employment. I therefore wrote to Mr. Ward, and, on the strength of that letter, he succeeded in selling the bonds at a good price.

Mr. Luckie : It was unconstitutional* " Mr. Stafford : It was doing the same tiling that Mr. Fox had done in 1864, on the faith of which the Otago bonds were sold.

Mr. Luckie : Two wrongs don't make a right. It was assuming the action of Parliament, and was unconstitutional.

Mr. Stafford : Unconstitutional ! Mr. " Luckie said he did not come here to teach. * mo a lesson in political economy ; perhaps he will teach me a lesson in constitutionalism. A Minister may be said to have acted rashly in acting as I did.but I really do not sec how it can be made out that I acted unconstitutionally. 1 think it was a * bold, frank, and manly course ; I said,, we propose to do this, we go to Parliament dfi that principle, and we tell the people beforehand of our intentions. I think I have answered all Mr. Luckie's points. Mr. Clements : Mr. Fitzherbert. Mr. Stafford: Oh, yes. Well, I did and do think that Mr. Fitzherbert's statement in 18(34 was a very great failure. He undertook, after a few hours' study, to *' make a financial statement, and it was quite unintelligible.. I have often joked about it since. But from my subsequent . experience of Mr. Fitzherberfc, I can as- - sure you that he is not only, what he has long been considered, a most sagacious politician, but a very good financier, in the^ ; proper and higher sense of the term, al- -•' though, perhaps, he might not add up a column of figures so rapidly as a mere accountant might. In the science of is finance, the higher branch, he is highly •_-.;. : accomplished ; but he certainly did make a great mess of figures in 1864. Mr.: Luckie, with reference to what Mr. Jolli6 . said as to the share of the Customs, was perfectly right in saying that for the action of one minister the whole ministry was responsible. The act of one is the act of the cabinet. I have never attempted

.^^refuse the emits of any act of any colMllli^ 6 ' What I said, as to paying tho the three-eighths, had reference ijfpiy- to the * year 1565-66. Mr. ' 'Jollies pslSte^ent referred to the next year. He fvliacbsaid he did* not see Ms way to ! pay so much to the provinces next year ; neither did 17 It was an' honest statement, although the House chose to make a scapegoat of Mr.; JolHe. My remark in January, 1866, had reference only to that particular year. Mr. Akersten put a question to Mr. Stafford. He said: You say that you have done a great deal for the colony. Will you tell us of any special good you hare done for this province, of which you are the representative ? , • Mr. Stafford : I never intended to give any special advantage to Nelson, because special advantages f to one province can -dnly be given at the cost of others. lam , a^ member of* the Colonial Legislature, and %am. -opposed. to. giving special advantages *to any province at its neighbor's expense. ;£ * : Mr. Akersten : As representative for ■ this place to which we elected you to do us some, good— you surely would not throw us over. Are you simply passive j-in matters affecting Nelson? There was '* for example the lighthouse on the Sand- , spit, which* is a special advantage to the "- colony at large, you might have done * something in advancing that. How far is •* that off, and. are we likely .to get it ? -Mr. Stafford : That lighthouse is pro<vi£ied for, its expense being part of the £260,000 borrowed under the Public, Debts Act. The plan' has been partly in preparation -for-, two years, and we were only for money. In .reply to another question by Mr. Akersten, •«•- Mr. Stafford said he had nothing to do with the creation of the old Marine Board, 1 v^buthad something to do with knocking it on the head. Mr. D. M'Gregor asked whether Mr. Stafford was prepared to disband the standing army existing under the name of the Armed' Constabulary, as it had been shown •in the House of .Representatives, that Taranaki, the weakest province, and largely inhabited by natives, was prepared to undertake its own defence, and therefore they were not required. Mrf Stafford said he was not prepared to advise the disbanding at present of the Armed Constabulary. Recent occurrences had shown they could be very usefully employed. After a short pause, Mr. Stafford said if there are no other questions to be put, I beg to express to you my thanks for the patient hearing you have afforded to my long speech. Let no elector think I wish to shirk any question; If anyone at any time should like to enquire as to any question, let him write to me, and he will get an answer. It often happens that an erroneous opinion which may have become current, could be set right by ten minutes' explanation, and - I shall always be glad to give such, or * any other information I can impart to the electors. . Mr. Stafford then sat down amidst some applause and disapprobation. 4 A vote of thanks to the Chairman concluded the proceedings, which lasted nearly three hours.