PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 5, Issue 272, 12 April 1862, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

FRIDAY, MARCH ffl. The Council met at 3 o'clock. Assessment on Native Runs. Mr. M. Fitzgerald, pursuant to notice, asked the Superintendent, — If settlers occupying native land pay assessment on their stock to the Provincial Government, and if they are allowed to register brands and pay for the registering of the same. The Superintendent replied that there was nothing in the Sheep Act or Registration of Brands Act to justify the Government in receiving assessment from the occupants of native lands ; and the Government had no wish to encourage such in their illegal occupation. Public Licensing Act Amendment Bill. Mr. Colekso moved the postponement of the second reading of this bill till Tuesday, as he understood that a clause was being prepared, which the Government was desirous of seeing introduced into it. — Agreed to. The reports of the Printing and of the Hampden Reserve committees were deferred till Tuesday. Fvae-Shilling Land. Mr. FitzGebald wished to give notice of motion for the re- consideration of the resolution arrived I at on Wednesday on the subject of raising the price of non-agricultural land. He wished to propose no alteration, but simply to put the reso-' lution in such a shape as would make it effective. Mr. Osmond could not see the object of this. The matter having been determined could not be re-opened the same session. Both members for the district in the General Assembly were present, and were prepared, if necessary, to support the resolution in the other house. The Council could not be, one day, stultifying the proceedings of the one before. Mr. Rhodes said that there was no intention to bring on a motion that had been rejected, but merely to remedy what might be termed a clerical error in one that had passed. Mr. FitzGerald thought it strange that, because a motion happened to be a little informal, no after emendation could be made. His object was simply so to alter the wording of the resolution as to make it conform to section 2 of the Waste Lands Act, 1858. - Notice-given accordingly for the re-consideration of the resolution. The Council then' went into Committee upon the - Estimates of Expenditure. The Soterintendent referred to the financial statement made by him the previous evening, and regretted that, owing to the short time allowed for preparing the same (under two hours) an error had crept in j or rather, he had overlooked the fact that the balance in the treasury on the Ist January had been credited twice, viz., — as a separate item and also included in the estimate of revenue. This would have the effect of reducing the amount available for appropriation to £9699 5s 9d. Mr. Colekso spoke at some length in elucidation of the financial statement. Out of this sum of £9699 5s 9d there had still to be appropriated for the Land and Survey departments, which was a very heavy item. The item for printing had also to be provided for. What then would be left for public works ? Probably £6000, to meet an estimate of £20,000. Should the Council pass the estimates in their present shape, he would suggest, in consequence of this state of things, that the votes should be classified under three heads, — the first, A, those that were absolutely necessary j the second, B, those that were necessary if we could have them j and the third, C, those that were needful but not of pressing necessity. Capt. Lambert said that the Government, in such case, should do the work of classification, as, were it left to individual members, they would probably have a leaning towards their respective districts. Mr. Ormond said that, under the impression that a much larger sum was likely to be at the disposal of the Council, they had already voted £8000 odd, principally for salaries. This, with what was yet to be appropriated, was something like fifty per cent' as the cost of managing the provincial estate. No private estate could stand this j neither could the publio one. There was nothing for it, he feared, but to re-commit the estimates, and come down to the original idea of captain and boy. Mr. FitzGerald said it was well that this had been looked into by the committee. It appeared that the Government had actually placed before the Council estimates to the extent of £1200 or £1400 more than the province would have funds to meet. Had the Government done its duty? Most assuredly not. It ought now to bring down a reduced estimate. It was not for the Council to do this. Mr. Alexander hoped that members would not attempt to confuse the Government with a jumble of figures. He denied that the estimate of expenditure was more than that of revenue. The Government, it was true, not being fully alive to the extent of the liabilities of the province, had not directly provided for these on the estimates, but it had left a large margin for contingencies — the difference between £ 39,000 and £32,000. Mr. Colenso marvelled at seeing a smile .upon the face of the member opposite (Mr. FitzGerald) who seemed to be treating a very serious matter with levity. He (Mr. C.) agreed in the main with what had fallen from the member for the Country districts (Mr, Alexander). The Government bad overlooked the £8776, liabilities, although it had left a margin for contingencies. . Mr. FitzGebald denied treating the matter with levity. The position of the province was a very serious one. He thought that, consequent upon the vote for increasing the price of land, the supplementary estimate (for the three months of 1863) would be found fallacious and that they could not oount upon more than £33,000 alto* gether for the 15 months.

- Mr. Axexakder would like to remind the last speaker that the township of dire was not unlikely to be Bold in the course of the year, and that this was not included in the estimate at all. It comprised 200 acres, and was not unlikely to realise £4000:01- £5000 (oh, oh!)

Mr. Coiißurso would remind* the cbmtßifctee that the overlook in providing for the liabiUtiea on the estimates was nothing new. It was referred to in a very early period of the session in the draft reply to the Superintendent's speech. It was known all along, and need not now be made a difficulty of. With regard to a rema¥k of Mr. Ormond that upwards of £8000 had been voted for salaries, he would state that, ofctbe amount already appropriated, only £4593 was for salaries. The remainder had nothing to do with salaries whatever. " Mr. Rhodes.— Perhaps so, but the land and survey departments had yet to be provided lor. The extraordinary revenue would be getting less every year, and the expenses of the Provincial Government would, sooner or later, have to be cut down to correspond with the ordinary revenue. Dr. Hitchings said it was painful for him to sit alongside his colleague (Mr. FitzGerald) and hear that member continually taunting the Government about the estimates, and charging it with neglecting its duty and shirking responsibility. But the fact was the Superintendenkhsd expressly said that the G-overnment had prepared the estimates pretty much at random, so as to leave the expenditure wholly in the hands of the Council. Mr. FitzGebald said that the Superintendent, after the remark of last speaker, might well exclaim "Save me from my friends." - Had s tH'e Council nothing to do but sit there for the purpose of doing work which the officers of the Government were paid for doing, and of relieving the shoulders of those men of the responsibilities of office ? He really thought the Council could not proceed farther until the members of the Government had made up their minds to remodel the estimates in toto or recommit all the items already considered. Mr. Colenso, with reference to a remark concerning the expensive character of the government, would refer to a document he held in his hand — the Appropriation Act for the province of Taranaki; which shewed that, out of a gross revenue of £9,800, £7,800 went for expenses and only £2000 for public works. He was quite willing that the estimates should be re-conaidered ; but the committee would remember that no negative vote could be re-considered — no pound a-day motion brought up again. Mr. Rhodes.— What had been said of Taranaki was a direct proof of a corrupt state of things. Capt. Laboekt said- that, after what, some years ago, he heard from two speakers, who were now members of the Council, he thought the government of the province was to be conducted for nothing or next to nothing. Great fault was then found by those gentlemen with the- Wellington government for spending the ordinary revenue ia salaries $ and when a gentleman named Charlton estimated the cost of the new government at something like £ 10,000, his words were ridiculed and he himself almost talked down. He would move that the whole of the estimates be re- considered with the view of reduction. ' The Superintendent said he thought, under all the circumstances, that it was the dutyoF the government to prepare fresh estimates. He would undertake to have them ready by Tuesday. . Capt. Lambejbt and Mr. Osmond thought^ they might be got ready by Monday. " ' '' T ' T ' Mr. Colenso thought that, even if the government undertook this, the Council would be as far from a conclusion as before, as it was not; likely that the three members of the government could so frame the estimates as to please the other twelve members. He was in favor of going into the estimates in open committee, and re-considering every item. . . ■ ■ - •■• v Mr. FitzGebald said that it was not the place of the committee to do this, but of the Government. Mr. Oemond said that the sum left for public works was so obviously disproportioned to -the revenue that something would have to done. He for one was quite willing to begin the work of remodelling the whole estimates, and hoped the committee would join in so doing. Mr. Dolbei thought it would be a good plan to . make a uniform reduction in all salaries of 25 per cent. After some further discussion, the StrPEßnrtendent said that he would endeavour to have fresh estimates ready by Monday. Mr. Tbiphook asked whether the Government would abide by its estimate of revenue, to which an affirmative reply was given. The Chairman having reported progress,— Mr. Rhodes moved that the Council do adjourn till 3 o'clock on Tuesday (the next sitting day according to the standing rules.) He afterwards, altered it to Monday, but the motion was rejected ; and one by Mr. Caelton, that the adjournment be till next day (Saturday) at noon, was carried.

SATURDAY, MARCH 22.

The Council met at 12 o'clock. ;■■•■' Beturn. ;;.,-■•> «"i\ ' •<■.' ' .-■ The Sxjpeeintendent laid on the table a return called for by Mr. Triphook, of the total amount of 5s or unagricultural land of the Province under certificate from the Commissioner, of Crown Lands, open for selection subject to 'six months' 'notice to 1 the runholder, — shewing in each oase the "date of application, the name of applicant, ! the amount certified, the locality, and the , date, of the, eertifU ca * e * . . /. , - ;,'•',- ' Standing Ernies and Orders. " : Mr. Osmond moved for the suspension of all the standing rules and orders which would bar the progress of the Executive and Licensing Act Amendment Bills through their several stages; in 5 one day. The country members were very anxious," to get home, and it was proposed to expedite the.', businesa in this day. • . •--<>*-'! -jA>- r K. Mr. Corairao seconded tbe motion, although hir. had doubts as to the propriety of thus pushing / through so important a measure as the Executive . Amendment Act, especially as its first reading was made an order of the day for Tuesday. ''"'''] . Publicans' Licensing Act Amendment. ■■ ' -^ ; This bill was read a second time, and the Council went into committee. . . ; *-•:*? This bill, on the occasion of its first reading, ,r : was explained by Mr. Colenso to be identical with' ? one now in force in Wellington. 'Its ooject was-two-fold, — first to provide, for. the transfer of licenses at any time, instead of periodically as at

t- .present* and, second, to guard against fraudulent refusal to transfer on the part of,a-XK>ininal holder. Haying passed through committee, Mr. Cohenso gave notice of its third readuig for Monday. '/. .. Exectttive Act Amendment Bill. This bill wSb brought up, and, on the motion of Mr.- CojGENSo^read a first and second time. The only discussion took place in committee. The object of this bill, as "explained by Mr. Coxenso, was alsb twofold, — firßt, to repeal clause 9 of the Executive Act, which- provides that "the Treasurer shall not, during his continuance in office, engage in any business of trade or. commerce, nor act as a broker, nor as agent or factor for any merchant or trader ;" and, second, to alter clause 11, which provides that the Executive shall oon.eist pi two persons, being members of the Provincial Council. Witfrgegard to the first, Mr. Coienso said that he believed clause 8, which required that theTreasurer,Bhould give security, was sufficient protection .j;, to the grovince. . The bond given by. him (Mr. C.) was f<jr "£2OOO, and it could be increased if thought necessary. Mr. Ajjsxandeb questioned the propriety of repealiiig^clause 9. In case of a Treasurer entering into trade and getting into monetary difficulties, he w O( uld be open to great temptation. He (Mr. . v A-) would rather increase the salary of Treasurer. He was certain that the repeal of the clause would lead to much dissatisfaction out of doors. Mr., Colenso would himself have misgivings on the subject if the Treasurer was at all likely to hold large funds j but, as it was, for that officer' to appropriate public money to his own purposes was almost -matter of impossibility. Even were he dieppsed to peculate, and if he had the opportunity, the retention of this clause would form no bar. Mr.,OEMOIsrD, seeing the heavy bond into whioh the Treasurer and his sureties had to enter, and seeingfthat another fetter existed in the Superintendent's sanction being required to all payments, was disposed to agree to clatise 9 being repealed. It was true they had an instance, in the Otago case, of collusion between the Superintendent and Treasurer, but such a case might never occur again. Mr. M. FiTZGEEAiax— The Superintendent has nothing to do with the drawing of cheques. Mr. .Rhodes recognised the force of the remark that a person engaged in trade and becoming embarrassed, was likely to be tempted. At the same time, he believed that their present Treasurer was not likely to engage in trade more than he had already done, and he had no objection to the proposed alteration. Mr. Tbiphook said that the Superintendent and other officers of the Government were known to have business of their own to attend to. Yet the Treasurer— the only officer who gave security — was debarred from so doing. He would vote for the ; alteration. , Capt. Lambert said that neither the Superintendent nor any other officer had the command of the public* money. He believed it would be better to pay the Treasurer as he ought to be paid. Mr. Wood said, there would be no difference of opinion jon this, point were the province in a poei- . tion to pay the Treasurer as he ought to be paid. But as it was not, he thought the restrictions reierred to might very fairly be taken off. Mr.... Doiosei^ asked the Treasurer whether, if allowed to engage in trade, he would fulfil his official' duties for £50 a year. Mr. Coleuso blandly declined. Mr. f Alexander ; had raised a doubt in this matter more with the view of raising discussion tbau otherwise. , They had all the greatest confidence in 'the Treasurer, and he would withdraw his opposition to the repeal of the clause. Dr. "HiTCHivfe waff glad that the discussion had arisen, as th y e subject was one that should be ventilated. They had every confidence in the Treasurer, but that Treasurer might be removed by death or other" cause. The clause was then agreed to. On clause two being read, — , — Mr. ConsNSO said that, in most of the provinces, the Provincial- Secretary, Treasurer, and Solicitor, were members of the Executive ex officio ; and experience had taught him that much benefit was the result of this arrangement. In this province, however, there was no Provinoial Secretary, and only a nominal salary attached to the office of : Provincial Solicitor. But he believed that it would make a great difference were the Treasurer to hold a seat in the Executive, if only for the additional light he could throw upon financial matters. He would speak more on this subject were it not that he held the .office himself; but ■what he had said was not for his own sake but for that of the Govern men t. Capt. Caexyon. — The Treasurer can always be called; in when his assistance is required. Mr Osmond would move that the word " three " . be inserted in the blank. (That is s three members of the Executive instead of two, as formerly). He j would not, for hiß own part, make it necessary : that the Executive should be chosen from within . . the Council. He would leave it open for the Superintendent to choose his advisers where and how he liked. Touching the point raised by the , member for Napier (Mr. Colenso) it opened up a . large question — that of responsible Government in the provinces. The Treasurer, if a member of ; ". :the Executive ex officio, would be part and parcel „ of the Government, and would be bound to go out :- : . if -the Government got beaten. He admitted that .advantages' would result from the Treasurer being in thVExecutive, but .this very serious objection .; , ; presented .itself to, his mind. He acknowledged J- the. force of the remark of the member for Wai- : pukurau (Capt. Carlyon). V Capt.XAMBEBT did not see his way clear towai'ds j .admitting to the Executive persons not members *" . of , the Council. A man might be chosen who was ../. largely engaged in contracts, or who had been ,;, rejected by - a constituency. The present Act ■;•-'■'; 'ieqoirect---thaC"';the Executive should be chosen ,; - from fine Council,,and he hoped it would continue :s?ik?''yjJ::','<- V .V/ T,- ■.:'■-,: : ./• '„-.' -„ '„'.■' * ; fs^k|lmgt^ any one he •£^j)J|aaeaf; Jafter ; |h: e; Trea^urer^vSolicitpr,, and Score •' Ws^i§^^&^&>£\«-r?\> ■'•■■-■ "■' ':;':■ '•■■ :-"•■'. wld. be; a* clangorous ; |s|«^°g^?^^;^i^h^int^^|tais .yawps :<i£

ohoosing where he pleased. They might all, be contractors. Let the Executive be in the Council : and answer for themselves. , Mr. Coi^nso said that if they were to have out of door members they would have to be prepared to pay them well. No one would agree to be at all timeß at the beck and call of the Superintendent, without payment. Mr. Caklyon believed that the Wellington Executive comprised no less than ten members, whose services were not paid for. Mr. Teiphook could conceive a difficulty in selecting a large number from the Council, but not where only three were wanted. Mr. Oemond saw great difficulty in getting an Executive that would work harmoniously with the Council. The Executive had really nothing to do with the Council ; it was the Superintendent only who was responsible. As the number of the Executive was supposed to increase in an equal ratio with the number of members, he had therefore moved that the Executive do consist of three members. The motion was affirmed. Mr. Dolbei. thought there would he very little difficulty in finding three out of a Council of 15. Mr. Alexandeb said that the Superintendent had hitherto felt great difficulty in forming an Executive. He should be left entirely unfettered, Mr. M. FiTzeffißAlD would move, by way of compromise, that- the Executive do cctosißt of two members in, and one out of the Council. Captain Lambeet would move as an amendment that the three be chosen from the Council. The amendment was carried on the following diviBion : — Ayes— Messrs. Triphook, Dolbel, Hitchings, Lambert, Wood — 5. Woes — Messrs. Colenso, Carlyon, M. Fitzgerald, Ormond, Alexander — 5. The Chairman gave his casting vote with the "Ayes." . The Chairman then reported progress. The third reading was made an order of the day for Monday, and the Council adjourned till that day at 3 o'clock.