General Assembly of New Zealand. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 4, Issue 163, 3 November 1860, Page 1

General Assembly of New Zealand. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES .

FRIDAY, OCT. 12, .1860.

NEW PEOViNOESiibT AMEN.OMENT. BILE./,

4 Mr! (Jilixes iSaid': . Sir,' in moving the secoiid reading of tiiis, Biii^l oan assure the House that I : *fed^deepiy"thVreapon^ \iae. t ':. -'^When' rbrqiightforwiifd; this motion for the 'repeal, of certain cla lisa's 'of the Provinces Acti j'l did so as no ■' party '.que^tipn.'.' I had "announced . from * Very eariy gejiod" of 'theflession tq almost .avier^ "member , ,of.' the House u my r intentjonj Uf neitner 'the- CfoVernmerit' nor any "otlier 'meikber'

took up the question, of taMng it up myself. I took ib up in no party spirit, although I plainly see that it may have party results. But the respprisibility has been greatly increased by the position which the .Government take ia the matter, by making it a vital measure, and considering it, if , carried, a vote of no confidence. Although I did not intend it as such when I brought it forward, yet I must now tell the Government that I do not shrink from' the responsibility of putting it upon their own footing. As to the question of no confidence, I do feel that a Government who can make such an Act an essential part of their policy, do not deserve the confidence of the country. I feel that this New Provinces Act was not only a political blunder but a most unjust and unjustifiable act, — that the reasons which have been assigned for its passing were totally inadequate to justify it, — and that if long allowed to remain upon the Statute Book, it will be the worm that will eat oub the core of the greatness of this country. I do feel the great responsibility of having taken up this subject lest by my feeble advocacy I should in any way put an obstacle in the way of retracing our steps in this matter. Ido feel that there is a further responsibility attaching, to any member who under the present critical circumstances of the Colony would bring forward any measure which would tend to embroil parties or embarrass the Government without having very strong sufficient reasons for so doing. If I did not believe that this matter vitally affected the progress, prosperity, -and well being of the country, I should not under present circumstances have moved in the matter ; but I feel that whatever be the circumstances of the Colony, this is of so great importance that the Colony will not be endangered in any respect by the repeal of this Act. lam indeed in somewhat of a disadvantageous position this evening, inasmuch as there is no reply for the mover of the second reading 5 therefore I must anticipate the arguments to be adduced oh the other side, and I trust that the House will pardon me if in so doing I detain them at some greater length than I usually do. A preliminary argument whioh will no doubt be brought forward is this, that it is inopportune to bring this measure forward at the present time. As to tnat favorite argument of little minds, when they can find no other reason, I know no time that is inopportune for sweeping off the Statute Book so unjust a law. There is nothing peculiarly inopportune in it, for this is the first session since the passing of the Act. It may be said that it is late in the session, but if any member thinks so, I would remind him that another Act was brought forward later in last session, — the Act which thiß is to repeal. The Act was brought forward in what was believed to be the last week of the session; therefore there can be no objection on that ground to bringing forward a repeal now. Besides I would state distinctly and honestly to the House that I wo\ild have brought forward this measure soouer, but I did hope that the Government would before the close of the present session have brought forward some alteration or modification of this Act to render it leBS injurious. But I have waited and waited till I felfc it was in vain to wait any longer ; therefore I have now brought it forward, believing that now is the latest time at which 1 dare do so, with any chance of carrying it. I know it may be stated that in the present circumstances of the Colony the repeal of the New Provinces Act might have the dangerous effect of turning out the Ministry. But I have no fears on that score, for I think they have shewn great aptitude in retaintheir seats after defeats (hear, hear). But if it should happen I should never consider that. For though I believe they are able men who hold those seats (hear). They are not the only men, and though one .Richmond be turned out there would be twenty Jiichmonds in the field (laughter). Nor do I think the House will be much afraid of such an accident happening 5 there will be as good men found to supply their places if need be, but I am ' not afraid of it. It may be said it will cause a collision between the two Houses of the Assembly. Well^ lam not afraid of that either ; I don't pretend to know what the other House will do,* but if they do come into collision ,then there is no resource but an appeal to their and our ultimate masters, the public. lam uot afraid of coming into collision on such a matter as this ; we have only, to do bur duty and let them do theirs as they think fit. , But it may be said it will be a barren vote, that it will be barren of consequences, that it will not .'prevent the operation of the Act during what will be an appeal to the, country. But! have no fear of that, for if the House by a decided expression of opinion declares that this Act ought not to remain, though the other House put its veto on the repeal of it, yet Ministers would surely at all events wait the determination of the country, and would surely not dare in the meantime to put in force . tie, Ne.w Provinces Act. I jvouldhope better thinga'.of the gentlemen in those seats or any others who may; hold.iheui. But with one and' all of these evils apprehended by : some, I h^ve nothing tpdo,'— the results Tare iibt' mine but, the Government's j all 1 have to do is my .duty and I trust. that ,this wUI be.the feeling of every Yriember of this House., JJeforei going to. J;lie New Provinces Act itself I would desire shortly, to fefer to the .circumstanoes 'connected .with the, intrpductiohandjiassing ;of that'Aot^ which though^ no objectibn^to the Act /itself, are a good" answer' .to any obj'ecjiqn - to" our chopping 'and ' changing ' legislation." as" k "ii' has] been!, termed!,^ ;There,,ar,e: certain ;cir^^ns'fap'oes 'qonne.pted^'w.U^tlie.passipg! pf this Act 7^!bicK slipiw ' that , ■ it . \ Was \ an ' Act -so hastily 'passed ajid, put i"!oa the, StatuM, Book that '{.hose ' "who"" inalse" tMs'cnarge" 'of ' Vlidp'pihg and

changing are open to it themselves. I would remind the House that this New Provinces. Act was introduced to the House last session without any previous notice to the country that such an Act was to be brought forward, and without due notice to this House (no, no). I say yes, f0r1,, ; find the Colonial Treasurer in his speech upon it apologising for the change from the Municipal Bill for Hawke's Bay, o£ which notice was given, !to the New Provinces Act (hear, hear). But again, the measure as originally brought forward was a very different measure from wha| it npw is (hear, hear). I hold in my hand tlie original Bill, which was merely a discretionary Act,— bad enough certainly, but not half so bad as when . compulsory. But though I have somewhere heard that Ministers repudiated their having made it compulsory, and stated that this change was forced upon them by the House, yet I find on tfce records of the House that this change was made on the motion of the Colonial Treasurer himself. The Bill was introduced as I have before said at a late period of the session, in what was then believed (as I find from the speeches) to be the last week of the session, with no notice to the country and very little to the House. I find also that a . very large portion of this House was absent. Whether this absence was caused by Ministers as asserted by the Wellington members, or whether by those members' own choice as asserted by the ... Ministry, with that I have nothing to do, that they can themselves speak upon. But it was in the absence of a large body of members of the House whose Province was to be affected by the passing of the Act. The Act was passed by a small majority of five in a House of only. 21, and four members having paired off, there were only 25 members who had anything to do with the passing of this Act. Hon. members will remember that by the 69th section of the Constitution Act it was provided that any Bill of this nature should be reserved tor Her Majesty's assent. That restriction was taken off by the Constitution Amendment Act, but s,till the Hew Provinces Act was liable to disallowance by the Home authorities, and I refer here to a matter whien, though there does not appear evidence of a deliberate intention on^the part of Ministers to prevent the right of appeal, to the iiomß Government, was averyun* fortunate circumstance and reflects no" credit on the state of the Government system of attending to business. The Prorinee of Ofcago passed certain resolutions condemnatory of this Act, resolutions admitted on aii Lands to be as clearly and strongly pnt objections to the Act as any that have been used, 'i'he.-e were transmitted to the Government to bo sent by them home in December 1858. . From papers now on the table I find that these „ resolutions did not go home until December 1859. * Members will find in these papers an apology for the delay, saying that they had got mislaid somewhere at the Governor's office. I have no doubt of the truth of it, but still the fact remains that the resolutions from Otago were prevented, it may be by accident, but by a very important accident (hear, hear), from being laid before the Home Government till after the Act was assented to. I know the Ministers will excuse themseives by saying that in the despatch of the Duke of Newcastle he wrote that if the resolutions had been received in time it woiald not have affected their . decision. Of course ! It was not likely that thatshould be admitted afterwards. Still it was very unfortunate that these resolutions did not go home soon enough, to be fairly considered. I have stated these ciroumstanees nob as arguments against the Bill but as a reply to the arguments of "chopping and changing." JS"ow I will turn to the New Provinces Act it self and see whether it is the very excellent Act whicli somejion. members awpear to consider it. The professed principle is "that it is expedient to make better provision for local self government." So it is. 1 quite agree with thatj it is an excellent principle. But I shall have occasion to ask lxon. members if this Act really does carry <rat- the principle of selfgovernment. If they can show this I will give up the motion (hear, bear, from Ministers). But Sir, I say that the outlying districts for. whose . • benefit this Act was apparently passed, have asked, for bread and the Government have given them a stone; they asked for the sweet waters of self-go-vernment and Ministers raised the cup of Tantalus to their lips, and now, some of them have awoke to the sad delusion (hear, oh, oh). lam not an ultra- . provincialist (hear). The debate on the second reading of the New Provinces Act was put upon the special footing of a battle ground, between ultraprovincialism and local self-government, but I repudiate any such battle; . I am desirous , of true local self-government, but, with no sham in the matter. Neither am lan ultra-cen- , tralist, but I believe,in the doctrine of local self- , government .equally removed from ultra provin- ; cialism ondatra-centralism. ,', I believe that the' 1 ; parties in this House calling each other by those,: bad' names have .been driven, a little further, apart .,, thanthey otherwise would have been. I wus at one „ •;■ timeinclined indeed to believe that, the principles ;i of the Ministry were less in error than those who , were . called ultra-prpvinciaiists;, I have always; , looked forward tothe future of this country with , the opinion that, if eirer it was to be a great coun-: J;ry, it must, be L by ; the spread of colonisation co- !;) yerihg the whole face of it, and that thea ; there., < would be^HO occasioQ.forProvineiarGrqy.ernmepts', , .;# butane, great^ v Central.Governtnenti Jiajing instituv • ,j Lions for Jpcalgovet'nmeut ou p,ureiylq^l matters.; 'j-;i ,Durilig,.thiß session my>yes jhave been.Bomajrhat. ;j , , opened 'tibi. course: of the, Ministry in ,thuj:mattgj^j Thefr co^e -Ws not been "of 'a- nature to treaty -

harmony between the General and Provincial Governments as it ought -to be so long as both exist. It seems to me that a very considerable tendency of their 'legislation has been to bring Provincial legislation into {contempt (Wellington cheers j) and 'the Acts brought forward by them show -that thdir aim is more centralising : fhan I should;- like to see ; it is prematurely ceatralising. ! believe that 'they are desirous 1 to get all the power into their owin hands within a shorter period than the complete settlement of the Colony. (No, no.) From the cries I hear around me it appears that some hon. members do not think so $ I will just ask them to let me read two or three passages from a work on local self-government, «nd, while we read, let us compare it with the practice of those hon. gentlemen. ("WTio'h the author ?") — The author is Toulmin Smith (great laughter.) Hon. members laugh, but I will give them some better authority than Mr. Smith ; for the author from whom part of the quotations are taken is the celebrated Lord CooSt :' (Quotations read.) — If this had been a description written after the event, could it have been a more description of the present Government } And if the opiniou •of Mr. Smith is not wortliy of our respect as some hon. members -fleera to think, the actions which ■he so well and *o literally describes are as little worthy of our respect. I believe the time will --come when these Provincial institutions will be but that time ia not. yet come. We ■ought not prematurely to force our centralisation. The New Provinces Act stereotypes in their worst form Provincial institutions | because, as ,you increase the number of Provinces, you giw them <eef tain powers which, the whole history of legislation shows, once given, are difficult to take away. Theße new Provinces will not be grateful to their creators when they tread on their toes in financial mntterfc, as is shown by the voteß of this session of "the hon. member for Hawke's Bay. This Act •oould only have been rendered necessary by the most powerful reasons. lam only aware of one of any importance, which is, that the former Provinces had done injustice to the outlying districts; that, I believe, has been the great cause for this -creation of new Provinces ; still, I don't deny that injustice has been done to the outlyiiig districts, but there is also a counter view of the matter — to *oriie extent a set off. I will ask hon. members who know oatlying district®, whether there is not •often a'tendency in them to make demands quite for their circumstances. There is 'this tendency, but, supposing that I admit that there may be a balance of injustice against outlying districts, it is not sufficient to prove the existence of an evil in order to prove that the remedy is a^ right one (hear, hear.) "We. should mot say that a doctor would be justified in giving a large dose of brandy to a patient in inflammation, and saying, " Oh ! he is very ill, indeed." Hereis an evil of -injustice to outlying districts, but is this the remedy? That is the question. I maintain that this is not the remedy, and I would ask any member of this House to say what more does this Act do than increase the number of unequal centres ? Instead of one large ulcer, as some consider these Provinces, it covers the body politic with half-a-dozen smaller ones •{oh ! oh !) — and I appeal to any member of this House whether in the only experience we have had of its working, in the case of Hawke's Bay, •whether that new Province is not as open to the charge of injustice to outlying districts as the old Province was. Now, to examine the provisions of the New Provinces Act; — [The hon, member here read the first clause of the Act.] — I would have the House observe here that there is no option left with the Government in the matter, and I ■would have them further observe that there is no provision for ascertaining that the provisions of the clause have been duly complied with. This is a. serious evil. I should have comparatively little objection to new Provinces according to the preamble of the original Bill, '" in cases in which the populousness, wealth, and natural position of the districts to be comprised in such new Provinces, and the wishes of the inhabitants thereof may appear to render it desiijpble ;" but here, by this Act, is a bare petition presented by 150 electors •with a certain population and a town and port, and a provision that the boundary of the new Province is not to come within a certain distance of the chief town of the original Province^ also the new Province is not to contain less than 3,000,000 acres. How are the Government to ascertain the correctness of this petition ? A petition «omes into the Government apparently signed by 150 electors, and with the conditions apparently complied with. The petition has been got up secretly, and the promoters have gone round privately from house to house to. get signatures? signatures may be obtained, and the men giving them, when they learn wiiat they have done, may next day affix their signatures to a counter-peti-tion. And do they call this justice, to create, on a forged document, it may bsj a new Province? This clause is manifestly unjust!, for it makes no provision, for inquiring into the correctness of the signatures and the wishes of the inhabitants .generally. We all know how easily petitions can be got up on any subject (hear, hear.) A. petition got up in a quiet way by 150 electors is worth very Httlej a petition iswortnvery little unless the matter be openly canvassed and adopted in the face' of day. This is a very serious thing that this so-called local self-government— tins separation—is to be granted without any reference to the wishes of the remainipg portion of it. It may fee said that if attention were paid to the wishes of the remainder, there would never be a new Province at all. But I don't ask for the majority the right of controlling the formation of the new Province, but simply the right of being heard, and that a new Province should not be formed merely ©n jt'he ex'parte statement of interested parties. This ' Act gives, to a small party the- opportunity of injuring themselves and the remaining portion of ,tke Province ; or, sopposing it a good to themselves, "still an injury to the rest of the Province, ■without the voice of the rest being heard as.jto . whether- it be right or wrong. '-We know how easy it is 'to get up a grievance 1 ; a. grievance may tie got up and the Province divided without an. opportunity of its being proved that their i^no grievance. - I have heard ofsucha movement for •eparation being got up. I have heard of leading ip^kertigayin&j^" sf6,;it , is not: redress we want,' it is "separation." A petition may be" got up and

signed, and the Government know nothing about its correctness unless they choose. For I could fancy a petition for separation from .a portion to whom Government did not like granting it, and I can imagine there would then be a strict «nquiry. Government have that option, but I don't know that they exercise' it overmuch, but seem to think it binding on them— upon a petition being presented, be it genuine or a sham,— rto divide the Province. The 2nd clause of the Act provides that 'the Government shall define the limits of the new Provinces. A most extraordinary discretion to be given to a Governor, or, ( what it really means) to Responsible Ministers. According to their discretion they may include, territory not included in the petition, and exclude territory that is. In short, if a petition be presented from one part of the Province of Otago, any other portion may be separated (noi no I and hear, hear.) That is the power given by this clause; nothing can be more distinct : — [The hon. member read the first part of the clause — (" Read on," from the Ministerial Table) — he read the whole clause.] — Very true ; I appeal, to the House, does that latter part at all conflict with the plain statement of fact that some of the community who desire to be included may find that the line comes just past their doors, and that they themselves are excluded from the coveted boon of this local selfgovernment, and some who do not appreciate the boon may find themselves within it. I have heard of a petition "bsing got up for separation and a counter-petition signed by the same men within a very few days praying that they, at all events, should not be included within the limits. There is no provision for examining these things, and no exposure of them till after the completion of the act — the formation of the new Province. The 3rd clause, which also it is proposed to repeal^ simply provides that every such Order in Council shall take effect within six months of date. The rest of the Act I do not propose to repeal, because it only provides for the Government of those Provinces already created under this Act, and all I wish to stop is its future operation. lam not desirous of making this a final measure. I shall ba perfectly satisfied if the operation is suspended till the sense of the country i 9 taken upon the Act. I should be happy to take this promise from Ministers, but I put my Bill in its present shape because otherwise I should be told tnat we were too weak to do all we wanted. I freely admit that there might be cases where, from geographical reasons, the formation of a new Province was necessary. There might be cases where a territory being cut off by ranges of mountains, forests, and rivers, would be properly made into a separate Province, but I deny that it ought to be left in such cases to the Governor and his Responsible Ministers, which makes it merely a political •engine. The House has no right thus to abdicate its function {conferred by the Constitution Act) of forming new Provinces, Let the matter be fairly heard and decided in thiß House. I know it will.be said that this House is not to be trusted — that its members are such partisans that they can't be trusted to determine on a fair statement of a case. Why should such a principle be simply applied to the formation of new Provinces? Let Ministers take everything into their own hands and manage everything disputed themselves, leaving nothing to this House but perfectly plain sailing. I have often heard it said there would be *'log rolling" in this House. It is very easy to give a thing a bad' name, and I think that disposes of it. This Yankee term, of "logrolling" had not a "bad meaning originally. It simply meant a surrender of opinions and ideas on minor points for the purpose of combining in carrying out greater "and more important principles. I don't think any one will dare to make it mean more than this in its application to the members . of this House. "Without this species of "log rolling," which is not improper, no Responsible Ministry would carry on. How can you believe that you could get three men of talent who would agree in everything ? if they did they must have no minds of then* own. Responsible Government must be a series of compromises in little matters in order to obtain great results. If any one would make the term more than this, it is a libel on this House (no, no). I say it is a libel on this House, or if not, then it is high time this House were swept away altogether. — Having shown what I consider the evils of this Act, and how I consider New Provinces should be created, I will direct the attention of the House to how it seems to me that the principle of Local Self-government can be truly carried out. If that ia what Ministers really wish, there is a simple mode of doing it. I shall not find fault with the old system without proposing something better instead, though I shall not bring down a Bill, for it is late in the session, but I shall indicate what appears to me the true system of local self-government — not multiplying Provinces, thus only increasing the number of august centres, but a system which leaves no outlying districts, a system of Municipal and County organisation (hear, hear). This is what I always understood by local self-government in Britain j this is what has grown up with Britain from the days of Alfred to the present time ; this, I think, i with modifications, consistent with our Colonial condition, would be a system of real local .selfgovernment. This it seems to me would be the true system which, if Ministers were in earnest, would give real self-government instead of these dissolving views of Kew Provinces. I will not go details, but- just sketch out the idea. Each district should have the power of managing its purely local affairs without being overridden by the Provinciar Governments^ ("Hqw about the land fund? ") They should have a fair proportion of the land fund. ("How much ?") Such a pro: portion as their purely local works bear to the purely provincial works ; that is the proportion they should have to spend, • and that, would, give them justice. This would avoid what has been felt in both the New Provinces, to. be a serious evil— the expensive ancl cumbrous nature of "the governing machinery employed; This municipal organisation would be simply wrought and would not be expensive, would be the means of training men' to take their places" in' this iHbuse. The Colonial Treasurer told; hon. members' they had very vague ideas, but " still I have so blear ones that I should find no difficulty in reducing them to practice.' n Government, last sesßioni professed to try a Municipal Bill, but they found difficulties

here and difficulties there, and they could not get through with it ; but it appears to me they found no difficulty in passing a stronger measure ; that was the true reason. Hon. members will probably talk about.over-dosing with legislation, but I propose to confer no power of legislation upon these . municipal bodies, so that the country will be no more over-dosed with legislation than now $ and the charge does not corae well from those who have over-dosed us already with unnecessary legislation proceeding from this House, as Civil Service Bills, which are quite unnecessary in the present circumstances of the Colony. Legislation would not be increased j but the neoessity for action of the Provincial Governments would be reduced, and by and by as the Provinces get colonised and peopled ■up to their iextr.eme Terge, then there would be no farther need of Provincial Government. The Bill which I have brought- in simply d sires to prevent any further evil arising from the operations of the New Provinces Act until the voice of the country has been heard upon it. This is nothing more than is fair, and it would not be fair to appeal to the country upon it and leave the power to do the evil all the while, for when once done it is irretrievable. I know that New Provinces when they have overrun their patrimony may come back to the parental home, but we -cannot force them back, and it is only when reduced to the very husks that they will, come back. But I should deplore to see any Province reduced to such a state. ("Afraid for Otago ?") Members say, "afraid for Otago ? " well, I am afraid for Otago, and I am not afraid to own it. lam afraid of those silently got-up petitions which the body of settlers would have no opportunity of answering. Let them, be got up openly and I have no fear of them. I should be sorry, pending the decision of the people on this matter, to see Otago split up into portions, and I should be sorry more especially for the part cut off. For where could they take off 3,000,000 acres so as hurt Otago? why it would be but a mere fleabite. It would 'be to them a source of great injury ; it would interfere with that sjstem of road-making, with surveying, and immigration between Otago and Australia — with all those things which have caused the rapid advance -of the settlement. These things the new Province would lose the advantage to a great extent. I should be sorry to see a check on the immigration fast going on there. These things can only be carried on by great Provinces, and the loss would therefore be the loss of the little Province. I recollect that it was prophesied by the Colonial Secretary that Hawke's Bay never would be a pauper Province. I do not say it is one, for there are no paupers in New Zealand, but I have been told that they were unable to pay their debts for a short time — and up to this time expend no money in promoting immigration except by guaranteed passages, and have not applied, as in the other Provinces, large sums for assisting immigrants personally that is the 'only plan, and can only be carried out by large Provinces. I shall not much longer detain the Hou3e; all I say is this, I deprecate exceedingly putting this question on the ground of local selfgovernment as against provincialism, for I advocate local self-government as strongly as ony one. That is not the battle-field. It is between true local self-government (Ministerial cheers) and that system which is found in the New Provinces Act: and to apply the disenchanting wand to that changeling placed ou the old statue book, under the false name of local self-government, whereas it is nothing of the sort, but a power given to a portion of & Province to cut themselves off without reference to justice or reason, simply with some mere local requirements and without even the requirement of geographical isolation. But it is not necessary for me to further detain the House, as no doubt there are others who can speak to the matter better than I can. I claim every favourer of true local seif- government to be with me to-night; I claim those who consider that the policy of the Government during this session has been subversive of the wellbemg of the country — those who think Native Offenders' Bills and Arms Ordinances are not for its benefit ; I claim them to vote with me this night, and I have great hope that this House will show that it disapproves of such measures and of the policy that brought them forth, I now move that the New Provinces Amendment Act be read a second time.

Mr. CiBTEE seconded fro forma. Mr. Moobhouse said he had now the opportunity of fulfilling the pledge he gave in this House two years ago. He had then expressed a determination to resist, by every legitimate means in his power, the continuance of the New Provinces Act upon the Statute Book. He had not in the least modified his views during the two yeara that had intervened, and he had come up to Auckland prepared on every fitting occasion to express his conviction that the New Provinces Act was a miserable mistake. He had just been looking over what he was reported to have said in the debate on the second reading of the Bill last session. He re-endorsed every word of that report ; although he had great respect for all law, yet he had never acknowledged the wisdom of this particular law. During the late recess he had often freely communicated this opinion to Ministers ; and had uniformly expressed his great desire for a repeal of the Bill, and his fixed determination to work for that end. This was the particular question upon which he and the Ministers were at issue, and he was afraid were likely to be until the undeniable verdict of the country should be given. Giving his Excellency's Ministers oredit for as much sincerity in their projection of the Bill, as he (Mr. M.) entertained in advocating its repeal ; giving them credit tor believing they were doing the country eminent service in the endeavour to crush the old Province, he hoped Ministers would give him equal credit for sincerity in believing that their anti-provincial projects were, if successful, likely to result in an end utterly disappointing and disastrous, both as regards their own political credit, and the well-being of the Colony. He quite agreed with the hon. member for Dunedin, that if the old Provinces were to be regarded as an ulcer, preying upon ' and weakening the colonial constitution, that it was indeed a curiouß and extravagantly ridiculous process by which Ministers proposed to effect a cure. "Why, they were actually engaged in an attempt to purify the system by inoculating with the virus a dozen other parts of the' surface. , By thus spreading

the disease through the whole constitution, Ministers no doubt imagined they w^re thus diluting its intensity, and that they could at. the proper moment reduce it at pleasure. Wonderful theory certainly I He had watched the case most closely, and could assure Ministers that their treatment was madness. , Every little ulcer of their making would soon assume more than the proportions of its parent, and the entire organisation of tho body would be hopelessly corrupted. If the existing Provinces were an evilj why not cure or destroy them at once ? Why multiply them, as by their Bill they had done and were still proposing to do? Ministers must remember that it was no easy matter to resume powers once granted, and enjoyed or exercised whether for good or evil. If they were living under a despotic Government the powers given to the Provinces might be retaken without reference to the will of the people; but it should be remembered that we were living under a different order of things here. Ministers cannot congratulate themselves on the power, at any juncture, to put the difficulties they are creating in a nutshell. By their unconscious agency, the provinces would grow to most inconvenient and undesirable power in the government of the country. Individually meaner and less respectable than now, yet their aggregated strength would soon be sufficient to paralyse and prostrate the General Government of the Colony, By a Bill just passed we are to have two new members for the little Province of Marlborough. Ahuriri was to have a couple. These new men he (Mr. M,) supposed were reckoned on by Ministers as a balance io the ultraprovincial rage of hon. members representing the old provinces. Ridiculous! Why there existed in that House a signal instance of Ministerial miscalculation (hear, hear). The only new Provinces member having a seat in the House, thehon. member for the Ahuriri, was in practice as thorough paced a provineialist as ever frightened the hon. the Ministers. Let them only meddle with Provincial Finance, and he at once made common cause with his elder brethren, and turned round and voted against those whose creature he was, against those to whom he owed his presence in that House as representative of a new province. It would be better to reserve for another time, arguments against the policy of creating new provinces. He would, however, address himself to reasons for repealing the three clauses proposed to be repealed by the Bill under discussion. He would re-iterate what he considered was perfectly understood by the country as a fact, and what he was assured Ministers were uneasily conscious of — namely, that the New Provinces Bill was a sudden trick of theirs, played off upon a thin House by an unfair majority. He did not join in the miserable suspicion that the Wellington men were jockied out of their seats ; but those hon. members were absent last session, and until the certainty of their absence was quite assured, no mention was made to bring down a measure like the one he hoped they were now about to repeal or suspend. He believed they said something about a Municipal Bill (what it was like he had no idea of), and they took a set of irresponsible confidential advisers, he had heard, to LelD them in the matter. His suspicions were arousedby the remarkable fact that, of these advising friends not one had been chosen in the interest of his (Mr. M.'s) province, or that of the to be dismembered province— Wellington. All the geutleinen he ailuded to were known to him to entertain uu • favorable opinions of provincial institutions. He (Mr. M.) never could learn what this remarkable party was concocting, although Iriends of his were in that coterie. He did therefore become suspicious. Thereupon questions were put to Ministers from time to time, and an evasive reply was given in every instance. He had heard that notice was given of a bill materially the same as the .New Provinces Bill. JSow he happened to know that it was nothing of the kind (oh, oh, and laughter). The real bill did not iind its way to the table of the House until it was quite certain the Wellington members would not be there to discuss it. So soon as it was known that the province it was intended to plunder — that the province most interested in the operation of such a measure, could not be represented in the House that session ; no sooner- was that established, than the measure was brought down and ruthlessly crammed down the throats of an impotent struggling minority. He well recollected the indignation from all sides of the House. The minority of an emasculated House protested loudly and vigorously (laughter) against the treatment it was compelled to sustain at the coarse hands of a tremendous majority. He appealed to the House. Was such a course as had been pursued by Ministers on the occasion in question, a dignified course or not? It had indeed required an enormous amount of Christian philosophy to bear such a sad trial of faith in humanity (laughter). He believed he had, by dint of great exercise of philosophical endurance, succeeded in quieting what otherwise must have been a personal animosity against his bon. friends. He could not forget facts. But with the hope of going some day to the country on this great political question, he had bided his time quietly, tie had patiently bowed his neck for two years to inevitable events, and had supported the General Executive (as in duty bound) by every means in his power, in fairness he was obliged to state that excepting that isolated but monstrous case of injustice and impolicy of which, they were the originators and promoters, his hon. friends the Ministers had exhibited all due integrity and ability; and therefore, although in fullreaiembranue of that one mistake, he had been a pretty consistent supporter of theirs, in most material matters, right through the Session.- (Hear, hear.) Heiwent further than that, hehad by every means lnhis power tried fTo persuade his hon: friends not only to>e"linquiah the principle, of tbeir pet Bill, but to aid c for past injustice by consenting 'to a suspension of ; its operation until tho real sense of the. country has been taken in' a new Ho use of .Representatives, who would ail be tested by this question among' others. He would ask, was* not the request perfectly reasonable, considering the palpable fact that the country has been juggled into acceptance of the New Provinces Bill P (Oh; oh, hear, heary) In spite of that indisputable fact (oh, oh), and in - spite of the fact that there was In this, session a very equal division of opinion as to the policy o£ the Biiij would hon. members Btnud by that Bill"

so far as to object to its operation being suspended between the present session and the next Assembly ? He was sorry to say he had never had any encouragement to believe that Ministers would relinquish one single inch of their position, He was willing to confine himself to asking the House, not. to repeal the Bill, but to entertain .at least the suspension of all fiu-ther operation under it, : until a full House, with increased representation, coming together with settled ■opinions upon it, shall have made definite legislation on the subject. To effect that suspension the present Bill was intended. It had never been his intention to put the question on the footing of a test of general confidence in Ministers — he had wished to avoid that altogether. But he quite agreed with the hon, member for Dunedin, that if in order to ensure the suspension of the New Pro.vinces Act, it were necessary to turn Ministers •out, then, in such case, he would elect to turu them out without a moment's hesitation (laughter). He did not, however, think ministers would go out j he did not think they would do anything of the kind. No, he thought their fortitude under -adversity was likely to be a standing pattern to legislators for some time to come (great laughter) So hon. members thinking of, and fearing such an accident, might dismiss the idea from their minds and vote upon their judgment on the merits of ?this particular Bill. He would be quite contented with this— that the Bill should be put into any shape of which its nature rendered it susceptible in committee, provided it only secured to the country in a new House with increased representation, to declare its voice upon the principles of the New Provinces Bill, and in the mean time suspended what he could not help declaring to be its mischievous action. The work of the Provinces was admitted on all hauds to be the work of colonisation and settlement. Now, what was likely to be the chance of economical settlement of the Colony if a large proportion of the proper resources of a given Province, say Wellington, were ■to be arbitrarily chopped off' to pay for a new Province, say Ahurirj, with £600 a year for its Superintendent, and all the unnecessary people who filled equally unnecessary functions, £300 or .£4oo 'a year each as well, and for buying steam dredges £3000 odd, with a lot of ground tackling not worth the price of old iron. Dredging indeed ! with a certain liability for the expenditure of £30,000 or so before any eil'eet can be produced. If all this was to be done, where were to come the funds to adequately provide for the outlying dis--tricts of the new Province ? The prospect of a •continued land revenue was a thorough fallacy. They in fact had no money at ail left. He (Mr. M.) had been there, and had heard several of tlieir leading men — those who took a prominent part in the establishment of the new Province — say that they heartily regretted it. What was doing at Ahuriri at this time ? Why they were selling all their lands, and when that small resource was finished, their ra3h love of independence would soon be rewarded by a most vexatious taxation to keep alive the stork that Jupiter b<id given them. The public works in that Province wure a mere bagatelle. What the Hawke's Bay pcopio espeoiully prided themselves upon was their proposal to dredge their creek at .Napier into a snip harbour. The idea was preposterous in the highest degree. It was like sending a Bervant girl witti a dustpan •to dredge for oysters as large as a barrel of beef. The Province of Ahuriri wan ignorantly committed to the commencement of an expenditure which it cannot complete, and which must dissipate an enormous amount of money before the experiment is acknowledged to be futile. If the money of the Colouy frittered away by Ministers in establishing » mockery of Government — most thoroughly •unpopular (laughter) — if the money so squandered In a grand Ministerial experiment, had been spent in extension and completion of lhat great road which the public spirit of Wellington had commenced through the available lands to Ahuriri ; then there would have been twice the country really occupied in the interior that there was then, or was likely to be for some years to come. The policy of Wellington was, and had been, to make great works, ana the Province of Ha»vke's Bay would soon h'nd that the land revenues were not intended to make little drains and roads and culverts, but to make great crunk roads aud bridges, great main lines through tiie country. He lmd read the proceedings of what were contemptuously called the parliaments of Wellington and Nelson. He found that in reference to expenditure of revenue, all interest was centered in the leading public works of those provinces respectively. He hud heard that there was now in Auckland somewhere a petition from Murihiki ready to be fir<*d off at a moment's notice. He did not vouch for the truth of tbe report. It was possible. But if true, he challenged Ministers not to act on that petition until they bad heard the opinion of the •country upon the question now under debate. He knew something about the petition from Ahuriri, and thought there was indeed just cause for complaining that there was in existence no process for testing the soundness of all petitions of that -character. What, in an economical point of view, had been gained to the Colony by the division of the country into paltry governments ? Certainly it was true that when the Superintendent of Ahuriri first agitated the dismemberment of Wellington he did publicly hold up the Taranaki province 38 the model of liis civil expenditure. .Now let Hon. members refer to provincial statistics and learn for themselves the slight difference existing between the civil expenditure of that comparatively; insignificant province (Ahuriri) and that of the large and long established province of Nelson. This New Provinces Bill had needs be immediately suspended or, in the ensuing six months, they would be having Ministers creating three or four more provinces to swallow up the resources of the country in purchasing the baubles of useless governments which were legitimately appropriable solely to improving the real estate of the Colony. With, the .increase of little .provinces, so would inevitably increase that list already numbering five or six .hundred people then receiving colonial pay ' for, ;j General Government . employments. Would not such money be better spent in making good hard roads on which wecould travel to elijoy bur property? Our estates were to. be valued according to the' facilities that existed for, their enjoyment. And if tne present Provincial Govern-, jhents wfexe allowed to go on perfecting tha means

of transit and communication wo should soon find our New Zealand estates as valuable as any in Europe. Then again -what was the great political advantage attending this' petty division S of the colony ? • None whatever. If ' they were to go on multiplying the number of little states the moat serious social evils were certain to follow. He would deliberately affirm his opinion^ that a 9 an ultimate consequence rowdyism worse than American in its most objectionable shape would soon stalk about and possess the whole country. Why multiply political excitement in a dozen little places where better employments or recreation j should exist? If the New Provincial furor were allowed to continue and extend we should have the useful artizan, the tinker, the shoemaker, the tailor and blacksmith, leaving their tools and work to argue and discuss in the publics pot house the petty politics of the day and district. He (Mr. M.) thought that we had surely as much politics as were good for vs — political squabbles and contests had already proved a great nuisance and serious commercial loss to the country — a correct summing of the amount of pecuniary loss to the colony, through ridiculous political wrangling and squabbling, would be a most interesting and useful statistic. His hon. friends professed a great abhorrence to rowdyism. Now he (Mr. M.) begged to assure them that he had as thorough a distaste for it as they had themselves, and that it was^iot the least of his reasons for supporting the repeal of the New Provinces Act, that he desired to escape from the miserable rowdyism which was pulling the United States to pieces. If the system projected by Ministers were not checked we should have political growth far in excess of our power of proper direction. Surely politics were growing fast enough without any stimulant. If it were necessary to radically change the provincial systems — if he (Mr. M.) could be shown that then or after a given number of years it would be wise or necessary to abolish them, surely it woidd be far easier to cut off six or seven heads than twenty. He quite subscribed to what the hon. member for Dunedin proposed, namely that the Provinces should give way to independent municipalities respectively subject to one general government for each island. But he should strongly protest against chopping up the colony into municipalities unless it were first divided into two single general governments with. Cook's Straits for a boundary. He (Mr. M.) claimed some weight for his opinion, for Ministers knew well that he had never been what they call ultra-provincialist. They (ministers) knew that before their New Provinces Bill became law, he had been desirous that there should not be permitted to the Provinces legislation or administrative functions which might be more conveniently exercised solely by the General Government, composed as it was, or ought to be, of the very ablest men in the whole country. But he was disposed to go no further. He had no sympathy with or admiration for the attack upon the Provinces commenced by Ministers last session. They had, in his opinion, disclosed an entire absence of good taste in their mode of warfare against the Provinces and their champions. No oppor- j tunity had beea loeb of investing the Provinceswith unreal ridiculous associations. In the course of debates in the House even this session, especially during last session, Ministers had lost no opportunity of indulging in unworthy sneers at institutions it was their duty to strengthen and support. la the unguarded excitement of debate they had allowed the venom of their anti-provin-cialism to exude ut every pore, The unbecomingly contemptuous tone of Ministers had seriously damaged the propriety of the Colony, for under the sanction of theu" example the snobocracy of the country had become intolerant of Provincial Governments and appeared to think it quite the thing to discourse slightingly of those useful and necessary institutions. It had become the fashion these two years pait for the very respectable community ol snoOs to sneer at the Provinces and theii* officers and doings in imitation of the sneering of Mis Excellency's Ministers and certain hon. members who had found it fashionable to echo their sentiments (hear, hear, and great laughter.) Such smail and unworthy bye-play had been doiag its work for some time. He (Mr. M.) despised such a process. He regarded it as meanness of a most degraded type, more especially in the case of gentlemen whose education, experience and honorable associations ought to have taught them better taste. He (Mr. M.) should like to know if any man could accuse him of any disrespectful bearing towards the high offices filled by his hon. friends. He had beeu scrupulously careful that all his correspondence with them should be of the most tamely respectful character (laughter.) He had always taken especial care both in act and spirit to accord to those hon. Ministers thai precedence which was their due. He trusted he should never forget to be properly subordinate to bis superiors. He had had occasion to state to the House before that he was not alone in his opinion on these matters. His constituents were men quite as loyal to superior authority as himself. They would be very wroth indeed if they found him using the distinction they had conferred upon him for the purpose of flippantly resisting or impeding the proper and dignified -transaction of the general business of the Colony. Bui he (Mr. M.) was conscious also that it was as incumbent on him to assert and protect their rights, and respectability, as against any individual in the titate who may attd-mpc to aseuil them. He (Mr. M .) believed that the Colony owed a great amount of damage and discomfort to one single fact,, namely, that the supreme Executive of the Colony had a moat thorough-paced political hatred for the Executive of a particular Province — which appeared to be mutual, and if : hon. members were to judge by what passed in the House, there would appear to be some danger of this poiitioal hatred degenerating, into personal dislike (No, no.) . Well he did trust they were a long way off that as t yet, but to "political hatred the New Provinces Bill :owed its origin (hear, hear.) It : was burning the premises of an Absent enemy (hear, bear.) - [Mr. JFox.: Burning an, empty pall.] . In conclusion, he (Mr. M.) saiu that what he wanted in his advocacy '! of the Bill was : not that it should. pass in any particular form. of words — he should be contented with any measure that would suspend the further Bpreadof what he considered a. seriotCß, evil. during, the coming recess. He would not ask Tionorable rnembers^to declare themselves' upon the principle

oftMNew Provinces Act, but merely to accede to the reasonable request for a suspension of further action under that law until a new House shall have met and definitely expressed its will. He trusted that Ministers before the debate ended would see the harmleflsness; of allowing the meaauretoiie dormant for the next three months or so. ,He should be quite ready to accept the decision of a new House as entirely, conclusive, if after taking the sense of the people it affirmed the policy; of the New Provinces Act. He believed that many hon. members were quite mistaken as to the general sense of the country on this matter. He trusted they all had a due feeling of respect for popular opinion ; he believed that the public opinion of the Colony was thoroughly averse to the Provinces Act in its present shape. Mr. InzG-EBALD said : I had not intended to 'come forward at this early period of the. debate, and would not now offer any observations on the measure before us, were it not that I can hardly avoid doing so after the manner in which I have been treated by my hon. friend who has just sat down. We have listened to a great deal that has fallen from him about rowdyism, and a great deal of eelf-laudation as to the hnmbie way he behaves in his official capacity ; but I ask if any greater expression of rowdyism has ever been made on the floor of this House. (Oh ! oh !) I had almost fancied that I was in the Wellington Provincial Council instead of the House of JAepresentatives (loud laughter^ and certainly feel that he has made a more particular attack on Hawke's Bay than the necessity of the case justified. I am sorry he is not now in the room, so that I might make some remarks on the circumstances of his visit to Napier ; . but of this lam certain, that if such opinions as he stated were expressed to him, it would be only by persons who were always more or less opposed to the Provincial Executive, and with whom, I am well aware, he had been in communication, |Tkose persons, very few in number, have all along supported the Superintendent of Wellington! and no doubt thought to do good service by the 1 petitions lately presented to this House and referred to by the hon. *m ember. I had reason to knolv some time since, that hints had been given tha^ such petitions would have been very acceptable to produce a stage effect before tbis House j but let us look at them and examine their weigktl They originated altogether, I believe, from a person well known in Hawke's Bay — a runholder and country storekeeper, who having received many favors from, and being made much of by my hon. friend the Superintendent of" Wellington, has not swerved from his allegiance to him — and who has ever been opposed to the movement of the great mass of the people for local self-government from the beginning. Well, he in the country districts, and he through his agent in Napier, is the party to whom both . petitions are owing ; and what weight is to be attached to them may be judged by the fact, that in the town only some 24 out of 700 or 800 people have signed, whilst only 26 out of 1600 or 1700 people in the country attached their names, — added to which the majority of the signatures are those of persons not very well known, and many ' of whom, I will venture to say, had no real knowledge of the document they were called on to sign. Why were these petitions not published at Hawke'a Bay ? why were they not generally known there ? Sir, the reason is evident . they were some of those hole-and-corner petitions justly denounced by the hon. member, and as such of little value — particularly when it is considered that they do not allege even that any illegal acts have been done or anything that would justly call for the interference of this House. The best answer that can be given to them is to publish them, and let the public judge of their value (hear.) I must now request the House to favor me with their attention whilst I review the remarks made about the lavish expenditure of Hawke's Bay, aud the taunts that it is in a state of bankruptcy, &c. What are the facts ? Take the estimates for 1860, and you will iind tuat out of a gross sum of £-15,000 voted by the Provincial Council, nearly £40,000 was for public works and undertakings, of which a considerable sum was to improve the harbour at Napier, to effect which a steam dredge has been already purchased and is now in efficient operation. It is true, owing to incurring an Jexpenditure of nearly £33,000' during the first six months out of an amount of £45,000 for the whole year — a temporary want of money was experienced, and we were obliged to have recourse to the bank for assistance ; but was this anything very novel, has not every Province in New Zealand been at one time or other in a similar position ? But even this would not have taken place had we acted as the Provincial authorities at Wellington used j formerly to act in regard to the Waste Lands, which, the moment they were acquired from the natives, were^in variably put into the market for sale, without any attempt being made in the first instance to survey them, as the Hawke's Bay Government has made, it being a fact that since the establishment of the Province not more than 24,000 acres of new land had been opened for sals up to the Ist September last, whilst upwards of I • 350,000 acres of unproclaimed land were held by the Provincial Q-overnment which could be brought into the market when they thought fit. Had this ■■ been opea for sale, in place of feeling any want of j money, there can be no doubt a large balance I would be in the Provincial Treasury. " The large j amounts realised from land; sales during the past ! 12 months have arisen principally, from the sale of lands open for purchase at the time of the establishment of the Province, and which estate is ! still, yielding very considerable suras from time to time, but with all, this and the uiiproelaimei land still in our hands, it would be just as reasonable to say that ' Canterbury is bankrupt as ~ that Hawke's Bay is, seeing that the hon. member tho Superintendent of Canterbury who has been bo hard on me was hard up ' himself the other day, and, but for an advance obtained from the bank, would probably bave been obliged to suspend payr ntent— though it would be absurd to say that, because, of a temporary want of money, the Province of .Canterbury, with its large lauded estate, would in consequence have been bankrupt. ' Sir, I was' sorry to hear the' hon. member for Canterbury laugh at, and endeavour to turn into ridicule, the .efforts of the Provincial Government of Hawke'a Bay to make progress in useful works of great public neceeeity ; !we want a harbour, he wants a

railway, and I think it was particularly bad tasta in him, above all others, to sneer at our earnest efforts to accomplish our desires, or to aay that the steam dredge at Napier would be about as useful as dredging oysters in a dustpan, particularly when many remarks might be made on his owa pet railway scheme, for the execution of which, by the way, he is obliged to hare recourse to a very large loan of £300,000, whereas we had projected to .execute our Harbour Improvements without resorting to such an expedient (hear.) Sir, I hope the hon. member, should he visit Napier some two years hence, will have reason to regret the taunts he had thought fit to make, and that such improvements will have been effected in the harbour of Port Napier as will prevent the recurrence of such scenes of danger as you yourself, Sir, witnessed from the present want of accommodation in the harbour for vessels of the size of the White Swan or upwards. My hon. friend haa said much about a trunk road from Wellington, and regretted that anything should have stopped it. But will the folly of arguing that it would be any real good to us ever cease? Are the settlers of Hawke's Bay such utter fools as to send their produce by a road 200 miles in length to Wellington, when they can ship it from their own port at a tenth or twentieth part of the expense ? Sir, the trunk road that was proposed might, no doubt, be very good for Wellington, as the expenditure would have taken place at that end of the line ; but it is just as reasonable to say that we should benefit by the Rimutaka road, and ought to bear part of the expense of it, forming, as it does, a portion of the South road, as to call on us to pay ' for the road between Auckland and the Waikato River, forming, as that does, a portion of the North road — the one being quite as useful to us as the other. The whole argument proceeds from the false assumption that Wellington ought to be a centre for Hawke's Bay — a proposition I utterly deny. The Eiiuutaka road has been made for Wellington alone, to give access to the Wairarapa district, and to which it 13 a centre; but for the Hawke's Bay district, Napier has been, and ever / will be, the natural centre ; and no road expenditure that does uot tend to connect the outlying districts with that por.t,-oan be of the slightest benefit to Hawke's Bay. I would now call the attention of the House to the Hawke's Bay -pe-._ tition for separation from the Province of Wellington, and the circumstances attending it. After all possible representations and remonstrances had been made in, vain by the settlers of Hawke's Bay to the Wellington Government for fair play, and against the injustice proposed to bo done them, especially in reference to the loans— and seeing that, from the conflict between the Superintendent and Provincial Council, nothi&g could be expected from Wellington, it was decided to petition for separation under the New Province* Act — and that it is now sought to repeal. Well, after due notice had been given for some time through the local press, a public meeting was held at Napier, at which the whole question, with the * responsibility it entailed, was fairly debated and temperately discussed —the otiairman Deing a mostrespectable settler who, up to 'that time, had been remarkable for' his adherence to the Wellington Government ; and the speakers being amongst the most influential persons in the place. Out of the meeting, composed of over 300 people (a large number in those days,) but five were found opposed to separation, the motion for which was all but unanimously adopted, and many signatures obtained on the spot to the petition, which was subsequently signed by almost the whole of the elector 3of the district, and which caused the separation, on Ist November, 1858, of tne Province of Hawke's Bay. Was that a hole-and-corner meeting or petition? was that any example of how advantage might be taken of the present Act — where public notice had been duly given, and every one knew well what they were going to do before they affixed their names? I leave this House to judge. Now, as to the alleged extravagant expenditure of the now Province. It is true that, when first agitating ibr separation, Taranaki and its expenditure was proposed as an example that we might imitate, — because we did not then anticipate our resources would prove ao considerable as they afterwards turned out-^-and we had assumed the lowest possible estimates in our calculations; — but when it was found, oh the establishment of the Province, that large sums were available foi* public works, it was absolutely necessary to increase our establishments in proportion. No doubt it may be very disgusting to the hon. members for the Province of Wellington to find that; we were able to spend £26,000 the first year, and vote £45,000 for the present year,- which, under other circumstances, they would have the handling of. They may cry out about "extravagant expenditure," but I defy any hon. member to take the Hawke's Bay Estimates, and say there is anything provided that is not fair and reasonable. The Estimates for 1860 amount to about £45,000, out of which but £5,600, I think, is for ordinary expenditure, including , Executive, Provincial Counoil, Police, G-aol, Hospital, Education, &c, leaving the balance, nearly £40,000, for public works and undertakings (hear.) -As to our harbour works^ oh which ridicule has been cast by the Superintendent of Canterbury, I can only assure this House that they were approved of by the Provincial Council — who could not recognise the value of the much talked of road to Wellington, though quite alive to the advantage of increased harbour accommodation: and I submit again, that it was not quite good taste of the hon. geutiuinan, who is undetstood to be such an advocate, of local iin- - provements, to have spoken as he did in respect . to .them. Sir, I must really apologise to this House for occupying so much of its time in the disoussion of merely local affairs, but it is forced upon me by the previous speakers. I will nowpass to the morageneral question of the New Pro- ; vinces Act, and to the questions in relation to it that it is proper to discuss on the floor of this Assembly. Mb onewho has carefully studied the l Constitution Aot can for a moment tnink that the framera of this Act contemplated that it would bo brought into operation iv the manner Sir.GKior'gei . Grey, from want of time perhaps to consider carei ■> fully all its provisions, caiused it td !be acted/on; The Constitution Act—the aim of .'which was to provide' a supreme governing fiftdjpflor the^wlioW Colony, and local institutions' for 1 the. different - large sections of it thathad o'omtaon iatereata- 1 -- ■

autborised the. formation at the titnait was passed, of jsix Provinces, but' in no way required;, that the, .whole of New Zealand was to be contained within those' Provinces.' On" the contrary, express provision is made for the formation of other Provinces from time to^time'^ as the necessity 'should arise — and. also for, the formation of Native IDiatriets,. «yen, at the very tirae the Constitution with the 6 original Provinces was proclaimed,* should the G«v,erno'r have seen fit., "Express power is giyen to the General Assembly, also, in another clause to alter the boundaries of the original Provinces, if necessary, when establishing new ones, all of which appear to me to prove clearly, that the British Government intended, in, conferring on the people of New Zealand the inferior p.owers of local, government provided by the 7 Act, that at the beginning they . should be, conferred on the districts lying in the immediate vicinity of the original settlements and geographically united to them-, — leaving other districts that, with thre Native districts intended to :be. formed,, and which would not be then ready for the Provincial system, to have it applied to them from time tJtne al circumstances might demand. And this, I contend, is the only fair and consistent way in which the Constitution Act can be interpreted. For, surely, it was never the intention of the Imperial Government, in surrendering its rights over us, to hand the outlying districts over to the tender mercies of the Townß which Were by accident first formed. This would be a curious, privilege, indeed, for settlers in distant districts, to exchange the rule of the Imperial Government for that of people in no way better than themselves, and interested oftentimes, perhaps, in pillaging them to tbe utmost extent before they were strong enough to resist. Sir, I cannot but think Sir Geo. Grey made a great mistake in this instance, and that much injustice has resulted, and will still result from it ; for why should these original towns, with which, m facj., the whole powers of the Provincial Governments really rest, have th» right of. proprietorship over distant, districtsjin no way indissolubly connected with them? It has been admitted for a long time past in Colj^ nial history, that the revenue derived from the sale of Crown lands should be expended in immigration and public works, giving value to these lands. Why, .then, should not Hawke's Bay, for instances-have the benefit of her territorial revenue for. promoting colonization and useful public •works, in the same way as Wellington, Nelson, Canterbury, and the earlier settlements had£ On yrh&t principle of justice can settlers there be taxed to an enormous extent by their fellow-settlers at Wellington for the sole benefit of the latter, any ■ more than for Nelson, or Canterbury? Sir, I contend that they have equal rights with persons in; other parts of New Zealand, and that it was only by the unfortunate mistake made in introducing the Constitution Act that they were fora time deprived of them. I also believe that the New Provinces Aat was only a simple matter of justice, and an endeavour on the part of " His Excellency's Ministers to restore as far as possible privileges that Ought always to have belonged to districts the natural constitution of which fairly entitled thorn to the same organisation as was given to the elder settlements. Sir, much approbium has been cast on the Ministers, and many imputations made against them for this Ast and the inimical intentions they were supposed to have had towards the Province of Wellington in particular, at the time of its introduction in 1858. Let us, however, look fairly into the matter, as there is no doubt, that it was mainly caused by the agitation going on at that time in Hawke's Bay,— and let us enquire who were its real authors? When the agitation first commenced at Hawke's Bay,-^although we stated from the first that, having no geographical connection with Wellington, we. could not look upon ourselves as more than temporarily united to it ;' we had at the time no other intention than to seek a recognition of our just rights, and that justice should be done us and our fair claims acknowledged. We stated we did not want to separate just then, and we hoped we should have equal benefits from the Constitution Act like settlers in other places. Well, one xnemorialfsucceeded another — in vain. From the language used in the Wellington Provincial .Council,, we were convinced that gross injustice was intended to be done us, and a scheme of wholesale plunder of our resources carried on in spite of our most urgent remonstrances (oh, oh, hear, hear.) ' Application for redress to the Superintendent of Wellington was equally vain, and met with an answer that decided all who had previously been inclined to hesitate, to lose no time in applying to the General Government for redress. This was accordingly done, and in conjunction with representations from other districts, I believe, induced Ministers to bring forward the New Provinces Act of 1858. But could Ministers have done this if so glaring an act of injustice had not been presented to them? It would have been impossible, and the real authors of the Act are, beyond doubt, not the present Ministers, but the Wellington Provincial Government. I charge them with, having been its real; authors — their conduct as the strongest advocate, and I submit that the General Government, have' only taken a right and proner course is, providing such a remedy against injustice and spoliation, on the part of one district of the Colony against, another having, no interests in common with it (hear.) The New Provinces Act, too, contained many safeguards j it cannot be arbitrarily applied; in fact, it. must be evident to those who have studied the map of New Zealand, that there are only a few districts, where it can be made to apply-^euch.as Hawke's Bay. Maryborough, Murihiku, and. perhaps the East Cape distiact, when it is inhabited by Europeans. . And why should hon. members who profess to admire local self-government, think" for a. moment that thpb districts ought 4ot to have it if they : desire it? I wbuld!ask "the members ' for' Akaroa! and Dunedin /if they would, have been content to reinain\\Uoder.,the .Government.', of Wellington, because Wellington was first eetabliehed? And why farcy tiie.. Wellington mienibersr--tTie great champions formerly of local , self-governmentr-so loud^wijtKeir.vOUtories Against it— so angry,' with : fcl^/^mbers y ,qf the 1 General Government? ' . It, is beeinse stepped in to prevent the ;Gpyeram«it from misappropriating pMpia^l^ha^l'diii; nQt. belong to .them— and to. d^J^f^bwa fiom the exercise of a trust 'that

had shainefuUy abused, (ohi and hear,) ;iook, a* the Loans they contracted, and.tHpir proposal in lJS^fb expend some out of £l V 5,600 (principally borrowed)' in Hawk' c's Bay, though receiving tens ,ojf thousands in the shape of ' land revenue from that district, and now seeking to j make .us bear a heavy . responsibility for money.' that they had the sole .advantage from ! Had those Wellington gentlemen, those . strong advocates of self-goyernnient, acted in any way fairly towards us, there would have been no petition for separation — no New Provinces Act in 1858 (hear). I again say, that they, and they alone, are to blame for it. Let the House look to what was once the, feeling in Hawke's Bay towards the Suuerintendent of Wellington, and the fact that in 1857 and 1858 most of the electors of that district voted for the present Superintendent, — and it must be admitted that they must have been grievously; disappointed indeed, when, after they found ail promises made to them broken and disregarded, they were compelled to seek separation towards the end of 1858, as the only remedy left them, as the continued disagreement between the Superintendent and Provincial Council of Wellington forbade any hope of .redress from that quarter. — I must new crave the indulgence of the Souse whilst I make a few remarks on the speech of the hoii. member for Dunedin. Sir, I have been both disappointed and pleased at that speech — -disappointed, because I expected something very brilliant, from that hon. gentleman, to whom I always listen with great attention — pleased, because though he made the best of a bad cause, there wa* but Kttie in what he said, I believe, to make an impression on this House, He had said that tha New Provinces Act was a great blunder and unjust :— 'l should like to know in what way. It rectified as far as it could a great blunder made in bringing the Constitution AcJ into operation ; and there ia. not much injustice, I think, in it» affording protection against oppression on the part of our own fellow colonist?. The House has seen that grgat injustice may be committed by the strong against the weak, by the many against the few. -Was it a blunder to provide a remedy to stop this ? I say no ; and I believe that [the appeal to the country that will shortly be. made will prove that the majority of the people are mi favour of an Act that after all is only a remedy] for what in some cases may be oppressive injusfice between people that ought to nava equal political rights. The hon. gentlemen talked a great deal about the value of Municipal institutions, the County system &c, and I am ready to admit their importance, but bo long as the overriding power of the Provincial Q-overnments remained it woald be impossible to introduce them effectively, and I wa3 not surprised to find that the General Government were obliged to alter their first plau of 18^8 and found themselves compelled to substitute a New Provinces Bill for the Municipalities Bill first contemplated. The hon. member has spoken about counties. &c, but what workable proposition as he made P how would tie constitute them so has to meet the end required ? Sir, I believe it could be done. The hon. member said that if the New Provinces Act Act really enabled the prmcipl'e of local self-go - vernment to be carried out, he would be in favp.ur of it, and that he was no ultra-pisovincialist. Now, there can be ho real local self-government in many places, so long as the existing large Provinces remain in their present form, until we give to the new districts that are entitled to them, the same ] powers and privileges which the older Provinces have enjoyed from their first constitution, though in some cases they were then not more populous or important than these new districts are (hear). Still lion, gentlemen need not be afraid that this Act could be very frequently orvery soon, without due notice, put in force, for if we take the map of . New Zealand, we shall ace there are very few districts in the Middle Island that can be well separated from the original Provinces. Murihiki appears to be the only one likely soon to be in a position to call for separation ; and, although the member for Akaroa (fllr. Moorhouse) can perhaps hardly expect it from me, I heartily congratulate him that his Province is not likely to be much disturbed by the New Provinces Act ; if he only deals fairly by the outlying districts and carries out those great public worKs he is now projecting, he will not have much cause to fear separation of his Province, which is in reality' a geographical limit (hear). But wherever there are districts which are in a position to claim it and which desire to have local self-government, why, I ask, should they not have it (hear) ? If tikis privilege is not allowed, we shall only have exchanged the irresponsible rule of an Imperial (Jovernor for the almost equally irresponsible despotism of a section of our tellbw-colonista (hear). lam quite opposed to the proposition that every district asking for separation and local government should ! -be compelled to come to the House for it. No one who has observed the course of the debates in this 1 House this session, and wno has noticed the very ! strong Provincial feeling which prevails, can fail to Bee that it would be idle to expect that these rising new districts could look for justice 'here at all times, for it would depend entirely on the' temper of House "(hear, hear, and no, no). The hon. member for Dunedin has of course spoken on this question as a deeply interested person, anxious tp prevent the separation of Murihiku, and would have this House agree to suspend the operation of the New Provinces Act, if it does not consent to its repeal ; but as to Mb proposition for the suspension of the Act, everybody knows that suspension means shelving the whole matter for an lndefinito'period (hear). lam therefore decidedly opposed to suspending operations : let us settle the question at once (near). : As to the other new Provinces likely to be formed in the North Island, as far as regards Auckland, I can only see a pro- , bability of one being formed on the East Coast; and when that fine district is settled, why should it not have. the opportunity of being constituted 1 a Province (hear hear) ?-rLMr. .Williamson.:' Hear hear, when it is "eettledOr- As to thealie^ation;^Hat the principles' of the New Provinces Act, if carried out to the full, would require I deny it altogether. The hon. member (ffifj. Moor.house) has stated that even ndwj i4"th'e baae <,f Hawke's Bay, injußticeiiaß bejen done to its^«xteemities." Sir, I can only say 1 believe the,h\on. member to De quite 'mkinfomed. 'Tlie prinQipal ,exp6n: diture has. been for country roadV at a considerable distance fwm town^ ftthougb^it «.'

■undeniable also that, great advantage is .derived by the surrounding, districts, even, frdta Harbour expenditure, since .it~has 'for its .object increased facilities for tire exports anA imports required by the settlers at a distance, to -vrhptp Sfapier must ever be a cenjbre of trade., No new Provjnoe could or ought to, be formed #hpre no centre of trade or communication does, Hot naturally exist within its limits. I would particularly direct the attention of the House to this , point, as limiting at once the operation of the Act to.those cases only where in fairness it ought to be applied, and to those districts only that could rightfully demand it. Much has been said about Hawke's Bay and Wairarapa, and their connexion with Wellington, but, in truth, no parallel exists. The Wairarapa must send its exports by way of Wellington, and must procure its imports , through , that city ; but the case is quite different with Hawke's Bay, as its inhabitants can from -Napier, as a, starting point, communicate equally well with Auckland, Sydney, or England, as with Wellington. All the outlay of the Wellington Government on the Harbour and Port of Wellington, and on roads near it, is of great benefit to Wairarapa, though none at all to Hawke's Bay— any more than improvements at Auckland or Kelson ; and therefore, while it would be quite fair to make Wairarapa bear a portion of the expenses, it would be quite unfair to seek contributions from' Napier. As to Wanganui and its severance from Wellington, although there has been some talk about it, I do not believe it likely to happen. Wanganui has a good river certainly, available for small vessels, but there is ao place where large ships can lie' off in safety ; and it must be always . more or less dependent on the Port of Wellington, where the principatpart of its customs duties will |be collected ; therefore I think no separation will probably be asked for. Tarn sorry to have trespassed so long on the time of this House, and to . have been ebliged to dwell bo much on subjects of a local* nature, but I have been obliged to do so from the remarks made by previous speakers, and I hope it ha 3 not been without result. In conclusion, I think every person who. wishes to see real local self-government extended to all parts of New Zealand tSat have a right to claim it, will join with me in voting against the Bill proposed to be read a Becond time to-night.

[ The remainder of this debate had not appeared in extenso afc the date of last news; and its republication in our columns is necessarily deferred.]