THE HAWKE'S BAY HERALD. Napier, Saturday, Sett. 23, 1858. SEPARATION. PUBLIC MEETING.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 1, Issue 53, 25 September 1858, Page 2

THE HAWKE'S BAY HERALD. Napier, Saturday, Sett. 23, 1858. SEPARATION. PUBLIC MEETING.

On Monday, the 20th inst., a Public Meeting of the electors of the Hawke's Bay District, was held in the large room of the Golden Fleece Hotel. The apartment was densely crowded, and" many, unable to find standing room inside, were fain to avail themselves of the medium afforded by the windows, to hear the proceedings from the exterior of the building. A large proportion of the audience were country settlers, to whom notice had been forwarded by express messenger ; so that the meeting was not only a "monster" one, but an assemblage in which every class was fairly represented. On. the motion of J. B. Ferguson Esq., M.H.R., seconded by William Fannin Esq., the chair was taken by H. S. Tiffen Esq. Joseph Rhodes Esq. rose to move the iirst resolution : — That it is expedient for the Hawke's Bay District to take advantage of the "New Provinces Act 1858," — that the following petition to his Excellency be now adopted, — and that measures be taken to obtain the necessary number ©f signatures of resident electors to give the same effect. He was happy to see so numerously attended a meeting on this important occasion ; and proud that it had devolved upon him to move so important a resolution. He -would at once proceed to read the petition, reserving any remarks he might wish to make for a subsequent part of the proceedings. He hoped the discussion that would ensue would convince all waverers — as he iimself had long been convinced — that separation, implying, as it did, the preservation intact of our land revenue, was the only safeguard for the district. (Cheers). Mr. Rhodes then proceeded to read the petition, as follows : — To his Excellency Colonel Thomas Gore Browne, Companion of the most honorable Order of the Bath, Governor and Commander-in- Chief in and over her Majesty's Colony of Uew Zealand, and Vice- Admiral of the same, &c. The Petition of the undersigned Electors of the Hawke's Bay District, in the Pro- ' vince of Wellington, respectfully shewcth, — That, with the view of making "better provision for. lax»LSe!t Government, and, for that purpose to t for the establishment of 2few Provinces," an i:ct -was passed during the late, session of the General .Assembly, entitled the "-New Province_3 Act* 1858." -.',-• :'That, tinder/ such Act, it-is provided that "whenever ■ noteless; than three-fifth? of the Registered Electors entitled to vote in the election of Members of „■; the House of ; Bepresentatives, resident within any. District whereof the area shall not be less than 500,000 acres, shall petition the O-ov-ernor in Council to establish a newrProvince compris.isg such Pjatrict, .the Governor in Council, by order -pnjilished in. the "New Zealand Government <3azßtte," : shall" with all convenient speed establish/ su<& Province accordingly" ;. subject, nevertlid^S) jfo the fulfilment of certain .therein iOT^^^<^a i iiJtipnß. ;, ■ [> r : ■;. . ■; ,;./-' '• ..'..■ • ■ sTh>tjyo^ Petitioners are, desirous of securing privilege?. .o|. Local Self, Government as pror vided^ : for*uader v tM aboVe mentioned. Act. TMt-'yom* Petitioners are in number, being, as:wiltbe eeenfrim^te^eriifled-Tjopy of -the Electoi^^ttappe»aeidffei^,i^ndt li9ss;ffian Itbreefifths of the Blistered -Etectora entitled to vote .: in the efe^tion'ofC^embera of IKe ■ House of BeprOT&talives;^BJdeatwithinthe^DistriotA' :':^x oli^liei^nri^aiWG£edrof r t^ ; JBayi itcontaiiia jftfcifts* not^a^dMg^fclupe^l^' lip^oCacreSj andiootl^if than five hiuidredthbu-■•;-'v.^ )Y^”' '. ' t: ?"-r""i-?:y: ;■:

will also <>bserv<e that the coloured portion, representing the coiratry'actually in occupation, does not fexeged an area'of one million of .acres. . That, in May last, a Census of .ihe^djmlatkm of the District wa9 taken by ..orde^jofithe^rotincial Grovernmeut ofWeUingt^undthatthe^uln- " ber "of souls, exclusive of aborigmaUnativeß, "officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates of her Majesty's troops serving in the "colony, bona fide resident within such area of one m llion acres, was one thousand 6nc hundred and eightyfire. That in Xapier the District, has a Town which can suitably be constituted ilia Cipital of the proposed now Province. It is the Port front which the greater pirt in valua of the exported produce of the District is shippßd coastwise or- for exportation beyond seas, andinto which the greater part Jof ths imported commodities consumed within such District are brought coastwise or imported from beyond' seas. That no part of the southern boundary of the proposed new Province, as hereinafter desci-ibed, isUess" than eighty three miles from the City of Wellington, and no part of the'western or northern boundary less than one hundred and forty miles from the City of Auckland. ' That, therefore, condition number four is fully comj'lied with in the case of your petitioners. That the District so proposed to be constitute! a separate Province comprises part of no other Province than ths l'rovince of Wellington. That, therefore, your petitioners respectfully pray that your Excellency will taks the premises iato your favourable consideration, and that, in the manner prescribed by the aforesaid Act, your Excellency will bs pleased to establish as a new Province, all that tract of land or territory now portion of the Province of Wellington, and commonly known as thellswke's Bay District, bounded as follows, videlicet, commencing on the south at the entrance of the Waimata stream, thence to the Gorge of the Manawatu river, on the west by a line from Manawatu Gorge to Tangariro, produced to thirty-ninth parallel of south latitude, on the north by the thirty -ninth parallel of south latitude aforesaid, on the east by the sea. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray &c. Caft. Newman had much pleasure in seconding the motion. He need scarcely say that it had his full and hearty support. He hoped, before the meeting closed, that the petition would have the approbation of every one present. (Cheers). A pause having ensued, — * George Worgan Esq., said that, in rising to oppose his conscientious convictions to what was manifestly the feeling of the meeting, he discharged an office that was anything but pleasant. He himself was a separatist, but -he regarded such a step at this time as premature. The district was not yet in a position to assume the entire management of its own affairs. The step, if once taken, would be irrevocable, and it should not, therefore, be taken without due deliberation — without ample discussion upon the merits of the question. He would first remark upon circumstances which attended the passing of the Act. No bill, even if carefully considered, was ever perfect at once ; whereas the one in question was hastily introduced at the fag end of the session, apparently after imperfect consideration. It was passed through the House at the end of th& session, when many of the members were absent; and was, moreover, nothing more than a result of the well-known rivalry between Auckland and Wellington. The new Act was but a side stab to a political rival ; Ahuriri was made the catspaw of opposing factions. (Capt. Newman. How can it be made a catspaw, in being conceded its just rights.) Was separation immediately desired ? He thought not. He represented a body that had no interest but the interest of the district. Our interests are yours ; yours are ours. A blow to damage us would equally damage you. And if by your determination, we are dragged in the dark to accept separation — forced into it without time to consider our real position, the. injury will riot be ours only. The separation movement had not emanated from bona fide settlers. Neither himselfnor his friends around him heard of it save from the Napier people and through the columns of the ' Hawke's Bay Herald.' If separation, as it had been represented, was the panacea for all their evils, why was not the whole population of the district desirous of it? Who was it wanted separation ? .(A Voice^— Who signed the separation petition ?) That petition was signed under different circumstances- to^the present. Then, the district was supposed to be suffering injustice ; \ now, bad they not pledges that all they desired wpuld becon-cedecU-^distinct pledges from both parties ! What necessity, then, was there for thTeexpensive machinery of a new government wfieit tfiey . could .get all .they wanted *witb> out it £ '• THe^aancialMejv of the case Was one^^at^bprejteavjljfjon hisrmind ; ibr not only would there, be of government, but a^QppMon;ateilia]bilir ty the Wellington province, (ftoy) 'Well, that ; w-as yet to; be seen . He woud& r Joaine; Watery objectionable i feature in the new hill. It

ignored a fundamental feature in the con•stij;utidn f " wisich, although it had been, pooh' pbpbed-of^ late by certain persons, wa> one of tbe' most valuable-,pnnJL'ipTes in the whole I Act. J"J ts^ repeal ftegxade'd tb/y superinten-denHfitO'-a mere creature of 'the council ; and deprived the people of tlie best protection against a corrupt council, elected upon calumnies and false cries. That and the financial question he must see explained ; and time for doing so was all that was required by the dissenting element. Inasmuch as, by admitting delay, the public could possibly be in no.worsa position than at present, he asked it as a matter of courtesy, in order that time might be affjrded to satisfy themselves that the step would be unattended with detriment or injury to the Province. If such were denied, then the party he represented would use every legitimate means to defeat the object in view — they would know how to deal with such ungenerous rancour — they would meet such petty selfishness with the pluck of Englishmen. (Laughter.) The amendment would form a test of the generosity of the meeting. When separation became the law of the colony he would respect it, but until then he would use every legitimate means in his power to oppose it. Mr. Worgan concluded by proposing the following amendment : — " That the further consideration of this petition be deferred for sis months, till we have an opportunity of clearly ascertaining what would be our financial position in the proposed new province, and of seeing whether we cmnot obtain from the Provincial Council and Government of Wellington such full control over the administration of all local matters, with, a fair and defined apportionment of tho revenue, as voold sati&fy all reasonable requirements." The amendment was seconded by Henry Russell Esq. J. B. Ferguson Esq., M.H.R., would make a very few remarks upon what had been said relative to the introduction of the New Provinces Bill. No man was better cognisant than himself of all the circumstances in connection with this matter. Any statement that the bill had been forced through the House without time being given for its proper consideration, was not correct. The original petition from the inhabitants of this district was presented on the 27th April last, a printed copy of which was in the hands of members during the entire session. Members were also fully aware that a bill to meet the case was to be brought forward — ignorant only of the shape it was to assume. Had a bill been introduced with the sole object of giving separation to Ahuriri, he did not believe there would have been a dissentient voice in the. House, save only, perhaps, that of Mr. Speaker. But, having been brought in on the broad principle, all. Superintendents of Provinces came forward in opposition. And that was the only opposition it received. No doubt, had the Wellington members been present, the opposition would have been more powerful; but if they chose to carry on their own petty quarrels to the neglect of the general business of the country, they had only themselves to blame for the consequence. Mr. Pharazyn.- — Would the Govern- . ment have introduced the bill had the Wellington members been present ? Mr. Ferguson. — Undoubtedly. As to the expediency of separation for this district there could be no doubt in the world. The proposed delay of six months would give the Provincial Government of Welington every opportunity of despoiling the land fund of the district. They could sell Mr. Worgan's run, and everybody else's, . and put the money into the Provincial Treasury. (Cheers.) That was quite sufficient without going further.. The only course was to get the petition signed, and forwarded without the delay of a moment. (Cheers.) The Rev. W. Colenso, after spme preliminary observations, said that it might be thought strange that he should now support separation, w hen he opposed it last year." But the separation he then opposed was different to the separationTnowin prospect; for irrespective of: .the. fact .that ..two of their number: iiad just .been^elected to the Provincial Council pfWellington^with a; chance that the just demands .of the district might be fairly met, he had, looking at Provinces as they were, an. unconquerable dislike to;iheide^^^^ Liliputian'longs ,in- so,:4small .a community. He Jhought. that all jsaW.tne. e^isdng need of separation. Itwas ; a matter .in i. no boiiiij/itie settLei ' ; coul3~be uninterested. He- believed that Dr. Featherstdn,.if a resident in this" district, wotitld b| foremost; in such a movement.,^^ .-Jpfe for the sake, of WavereM'antT ~nVw -comers, offer a few arguments' in favour of separa-

tion ; giving, first, those of a negative character. Well, .there was the"; treajbjaerent this district had ycceiyed^^feyyVfew^gton, which had/acted i:p ward? 4t^j^jac^l. stepmo their. Then- there -was-t^tß^iace from Wellington, and Mhe want- of .aii^natural connection between the tw0..'..; 1t was true that a conneciing link was sought; to be made by Dr. Featherston, by his hubby, a road through the 70-niile bush — a road, which, even were it vow open, he would not accept as a boon on the condition of keeping it clear. But to attempt a road through suchan extent of forest, o.ver a country incessantly flooded,, was sheer madness. Nor was the district, as had been said, an off-shoot from Wellington. He repudiated the idea, and denied in toto that the Superintendent of ' Wellington had any vested right whatever in the lands of Ahuriri. There were many respectable settlers in the district, (Mr. Worgan among the number,) who did not come from Wellington, and, in point of fact, Hawke's Bay was peopled before Wellington sprung into existence. Then, with regard to arguments of a positive kind, look at the public lands. Can it be denied that these will yield revenue sufficient for all necessary public improvements. Look at the harbour of Napier, centrically situated as regards the district. And look at the Hawke's Bay whaling grounds, Ion? the pride of New Zealand. While whaling stations in the middle and southern islands had, one after the other, been thrown up, those in Hawke's Bay had always been maintained. The elements of wealth and of intelligence were around them in all directions, and all they had to do was to cut the wire and take the cork out of the soda-water. (Laughter.) It had been doubted whether there was sufficient intelligence in the district to carry out this movement ; but, while he saw much intelligence around him, he also remembered the good old rule that every man looked best after his own interest. (Cheers.) It had been said that it wasnot their interest to separate, why then did Wellington still wish to retain Hawke's Bay. Reference had been made to certain questions of debt ; the adjustment of these was not left to us. But did any one suppose that by remaining in the grasp of Wellington they would escape the re-payment of the debt — that Wellington would, herself, pay the full claim. He could not listen to such a thing. Had Hawke's Bay obtained separation 3 years ago, in how different a position would it now be ? Would not the roads of the interior and the streets of the town be in a very different state to what they are ? All they wanted was leave to manage their own revenue — they wanted nothing from Wellington. All they had to say to Wellington was this, — We have dissolved partnership ; hand over the balance. (Laughter. — Mr. Worgan, — Don't you wish you may get it.) It was good, sometimes, to forget the past, but could they forget the contumely with which their petition to the Provincial Council was received ? (The Chairman here interfered ; he thought it better, that by-gones should, as much as possible, be left out of consideration.) He (Mr. C.) was going to remark that one cause of the present movement was the fact that when they asked for local boards and money the}' received nought but contemptuous expressions. About the same time, inquiries with regard to the financial portion of the district came to be made, and it was found that, while large sums had gone into the Provincial chest, only £42 ss. had actually been expended on public works. He trusted, in conclusion, that the niotto " one and all' would be theirs that day— rthat unitedly, they would fight the battle of separation . That day four years a, great victory was obtained in the Alma ; letthe victory of that day be, in a moral sense, no less complete. (Cheers.) Robert PharazyS Esq, said that he had heard one good remark from the .previous speaker — that which referred' to handing back _ the balance. He ("Mr." P.") would like some information about ! that; but he believed that, if Separated from Wellington, they would riot get a sixpence back. Then there might be a considerable revenue derivable from the land, but -not by^anyjmeans so large as many' supposed. The actual extentTof 'JandTfield By Government throughout the might be estimated at one million of .'acres* alargerproportioh of which was -of-a : rugged,Cbr6keii chara'cjer.— -' There- -would necessarily be a grea't 1 falling offin the land revenue. Many seemed- &>-be advo^ting-separalion^ unifier the sappositiour'th;^ was likely toT flow into; the* the TieW"Pfbvuice ; but he VeHeyed that financial difficulties >o"uld "sodn' B^4he means of undeceiving such.' If, instead of

accepting at. once,, they, would «cc what could. ; bfi) done to get back part of the nwneyZ-that had left .the district, they might be gainers j but .could not possibly be/losprs. : They should, get v the balance, a.pd think ?of separation aftenvards. ... '., Mr; Ferguson. — .Will you guarantee that no land will be sold meanwhile ? Mr. Pharazym. — That might easily be arranged by the appointment of a committee. Mr. Ferguson would make one remark as to the question of the expense of the proposed new government. One object in view, by the framers of the New Provinces Bill was that of curtailing the expenses of the Provinces. As virtual municipalities, the expense of their management would be incomparably less than. if they., were Provinces according to the usual acceptation of the. terni; v:vHe. thought that.the business of the new province might be conducted at a very small expense indeed. T. H. Frrz Gerald Esq., said that there were. many more capable than himself of attending to public business, and with more time to spare, and that he had no intention or desire either to seek or accept office under the new government. He was no seeker of official station, as many seemed to suppose. His position, so far as political arrangements went, was thoroughly independent. Mr. Worgan had told the meeting that he was a separationist, but that separatioii was premature; but his (Mr. F.s) belief was that if separation was a good thing* they should have it at once. (Cheers), it had been remarked that they owed this measure to . the rivalry between Auckland and Wellington ; but granting that to be true, what did it matter so long as they reaped the benefit. He (Mr. F.) would not care, indeed, how often the district was made such a catspaw of. Then it had been said that this movement did not originate with the inland settlers. But was it not a fact that the signatures to the separation petition included a very large majority of the inland settlers. And it was quite a mistaken notion that any party in Wellington could accord the district a full measure of justice ; while there would always be the objectionable overriding power of the Council and Superintendent. The principal objection he had heard to the present movement was that the new province would be liable to the repayment of a share of the Wellington loan — which ■was £100,000, not £120,000, as had been stated. Now that objection was founded upon an untrue .construction of clause 15 of the Act, which had no reference to Provincial loans, but to our proportion of £54,000, Wellington's share of £85,000, raised by the General Government for the purpose of land purchases. That; was the permanent debt referred to, and towards the interest and sinking fund of which the new Provinces would have to pay (out of the three-fifths of the customs revenue reserved by the General Government) at the rate of 6 per cent per annum on a certain proportion of it. They had not benefi tted to the extent of one shilling trom the Provincial loan, and they lay under no obligation, moral or legal, to repay any portion of it. In this view of the 15th clause of the Act he was fully borne out by Mr. Ferguson, who was present when it passed the House. Whatever claims might be advanced against the new Province would have, to be brought before the . house of Representatives, on a future - occasion. Then as to the revenues of the future province,—he thought, its customs revenue might be fairly set down at £5000 per annum. The June quarter yielded £1000, while, from the establishment of a bank, and the certainty before long, of a direct trade with.; Sydney , a considerable increase might reasonably be calculated upon. Taking it, then, at £5000, this would leave £3000 for the Province ; : then there was the territorial revenue— rents of runs, &c, which might be taken at £1500 ; and publicans! licenses, fees and fines, at £500 — making, in all, £5000 of annual income. TJien the proceeds of land sales were not likely.tobe so inconsiderable as had been represented. T,heJ;own, of Clive was yet jtojbe^utin the.^market,., and there - w^sre largeiqnantities of five shilling land which had already been applied for by gentlemen in that very"- room. /"^There were also the Pofangahau blocks -;~and tnstrong probability tl.tHati. soon j as e & separation .was of'eountry^-wbuld; be clbrJ^l^byj^Tirciias.e fcbm : the ; : aativ^. owners, Superintendent,, but h& was not, strictly speaking,^anr r^fectiYe-opeV -and-with. all

(Cheers). The double elective principle had shown itself to be a most .unworkable one, both mV Wellington and Auckland. The new Province might be yery inexpensively, governed. There was no need of Speaker,. Provincial Secretary, Treasurer, or Solicitor.. The Superintendcet and two clerks might in fact, do the whole of the work ; and the consequence of such economical arrangements would be that, even out of the ordinary revenue, a large surplus would remain for public works. Relative to the amendment, he thought it a very injudicious one ; inasmuch as it would give the Provincial Government every opportunity of realizing what they could from the District. It was the interest of Wellington to. do so ; it was to the interest of every settler in Ahuriri at once to put a stop to such a state of things. (Cheers). Mr. Pharazyn had asked whether the ministry, would hav£ introduced such a bill had the Wellington members been present; he (Mr. F.) had reason to believe that Fox, for one, had he been present,, would not have opposed it. As to waiting, with the view of getting something out of the Wellington Provincial Government, the idea was not to be thought of. They had already had ample promise and very small performance. And now that the Superintendent and Provincial Council were at loggerheads, was it likely that anything could be done for months to come ? And when the Superintendent had the power, how did he treat this District in comparison with Wanganui 1 Why, last year, in the Wanganui and Rangitikei districts, with a land revenue of £1500, the sum of £27,580 was not only placed on the estimates, but actually spent. In Ahuriri, during the same period, with a revenue of some £20,000, not more than a few hundreds were actually expended. And was it any better this year ? Were not the works in the Te Aute road allowed to languish, although, according to promise, they should have gone on vigorously with a force of 100 men ? They had languished, and ever would languish until they were under the control of those immediately interested. (Cheers). Capt. Curling said that, from the office he held, he should not interfere in party politics, but he regarded .separation not as a party question, but one which affected the interests of the entire district. It had been said that personalities should he carefully avoided, but he meant to be very personal. (Laughter). Well, a few days ago, on returning from Auckland, he saw a notice calling a meeting — for what purpose ? To consider the necessity of adopting measures to obtain separation. He thought this was very extraordinary ; for when he took up a petition, signed all but unanimously in favour of separation, he certainly thought they had all made up their minds, instead^of which he found, to his surprise, that a grand meeting had been called for the purpose of talking the whole matter over again. Now, he thought that a meeting should have been called, not for the purpose of again considering the expediency of separation, but for the purpose of taking immediate steps to get it. (Cheers). He must say that he. felt angry at what looked like a little halting between two opinions. Mr. Worgan, in his speech, had given utterance to a threat — that he and his party would do all in their power to prevent us getting separation. (Mr. FitzGerald, — If not convinced of its expediency.) Now* he thought that Mr. Worgan, in so speaking, had assumed rather too much for his party, for it appeared to him (Capt. C.) that that party was in a miserable minority. (Laughter). The importance they assumed to their opposition, and tha little. effect it was likely to have, reminded him of the old woman who, with her broom, tried to sweep back the Atlantic. He did not wish, in this case, to " be j personal, but he hoped his brother settlers would not allow the opposition -of Mr. Worgan and his friends to be more effective | in the one case than that of the old.woman, in the other. (Cheers and Laughter). Something had been said about the new Provinces Bill having been passed by the [ ministry as a side wind; Now, the way in which ministers introduced and passed that bill was such as to entitle them to the gratitude: of : the country. (Cheers). They actually waited till the last moment in hope tliat"tne^eliifigl^.^ein^Brs-nn^-come up. They did" not' cotne up, and -the government v very properly ■■ said, because the Wellington: members;.willYnot come up, we cannot .permit .the.session. to "pass without doing an act of: justice i to the joutlying districts.^ He' himseif .believed that, had the jnembera ! cbM%Jp^ertih%ht baye ;i>een*mttc6 spoutm'g,' feui mat no

danger to the Bill would thereby have followed. Their talking would not have- had the least effect. He (Capt. C.) confessed that he was not sorry on account of their absence — for, with so many stump orators in the House, there would have been much more speaking than legislation. In the session an immense amount of work had been accomplished, simply because there was little talking. He did not think a better Bill could be framed. It give outlying districts all the powers necessary to promote their prosperity, while the peacock feathers were pl.iced out of their reach, and the Superintendents deprived of the power to make themselves ridiculous. New Provinces could neither cut their own fingers nor injure others. What they had now to do was to sign the petition as quickly as possible, and, afterwards to do all they could towards carrying 1 on the local government. He would advise them, in selecting a superintendent, to act as a merchant would upon two persons applying to him for employment — discard the one who came with a Brummagem pin in his breast, and select the one who came plainly dressed, with his tools in his hands. They wanted a man to do the work, , not one who would be merely an ornamental appendage to the government. He was never so much pleased in his life as when he came down -to Napier with the Separation Bill in his pocket. (Cheers). Capt. Charlton said that he was one of the miserable minority, (laughter) but he would rather be in a small minority that was right than a large majority that was wrong. At a former meeting he had expressed himself in favour of separation ; he was so still. The proposed new Province looked well on the map, but he wanted to know the data upon which they meant to work it. He did not believe in a cheap government, one restilt of which would be to dispense with talent and bring wealth in its place. He would put a question that he had heard Mr. Colenso put to a former meeting, — the machinery being in operation, where will you find the oil to grease the wheels with ? Mr. Colenso explained that, on putting the question referred to, he had before him, not a Government under the New Provinces Act, but an expensive -government like that of Wellington. Capt. Charlton then read a list of the expenses of a new government, . amounting to £22,795. The following are the figures he used. Land Department £3000 Road do. 700 6 Policemen • 600 Police incidentals 100 Rations for Gaol 100 Pilot, Harbor Master, boat's crew &c. 630 Interest on money for new public Buildings 190 Roads and Bridges 6000 Road through Town lOuO Grants in Aid " 1008 Postal 800 Immigration 1000 Harbour Improvements 1000 Superintendent's Salary 300 Clerk 100 Solicitor 100 Treasurer 50 Messenger 100 9 Members of Council % £15 135 Printing, &c. 200 Resident Magistrate 400 Clerk of Court 100 Registrar of Deeds 200 Interest on Loans 6000 A Voice. — Will all this be required every year ? Capt. Charlton. — Most of it. The items of "Harbour Improvements" and "Roads and Bridges,' will be required every year for many years to come. He believed they would all go for separation ; it was simply a matter of time. All that any one wanted, except place-hunters and hangersron, was simply to expend the public money "of 'the District ; and if this could achieved without separation, he thought it all the better for the present. Mr. FitzGerald said that he held in his hand a copy of the estimates for the whole : Province, which amounted to but £23,000, a trifle over Capt. Charlton's estimate for this District. So that his calculations were quite imaginary. (Cheers and -laughter). . '" , Capt. Charlton proposed to-^gb over every item, but this-Mr^ FitzGjbrald der clined. ' "• - ' ■■■•■■■■ G. S. Cooper Esq. said that he had been led to expect a strong and -powerful op--position movement^ but he : found that the opposition was not only feeble in- strength but also : in argument. rJHe Jiad .listened carefully to the 1 speech-of : Mr-yWorgmi without being able to discover a'inngie^^gument again&V > separation . ; They had : be^jsprd^that :flre ,ieTW Province wouldsbe j?aS|tt©d^wliht'a &eavy amoiint ;of • debt* mit ,

the Act was at least ambiguous , on that point; while they had the. evidence^, of. » gentleman who was present when it passed the House*, that -their (the oppositipn'a)reading was the wrong one. But admitting that they were liable for a-share of the Provincial debt, why, at the timetb^Con* stitution Act was brought into Parliament, it was saddled with a condition, that the most unfair and unjust debt alleged to be due to the new Zealand Co. should be saddled upon the Colony. Did the friends of the Colony say then, we will not take it ? No, they were too glad to get the boon on any condition. (Cheers). And so he said with regard to separation — debt or no debt they must have it. (Cheers). They had been told by the opposition that more time was wanted — that the District should have some chance afforded it of getting hac& ■ some of its own money. (Laughter). But, supposing they had every ground, from first to last, of reposing on the good faith of the magnates of Wellington, what probability was there of that money being returned. He would ask the meeting to look at the affairs of Wellington — business at a dead lock — the Superintendent and his Council at open war — and, it was said, a dissolution applied for. How then were those moneys to be got — under what Act were the expected payments to be made ? Reference had also been made to a want of talent amongst the settlers ; but even were this ohjection founded on fact, they all knew that, even in regard to talent, supply would be regulated by the demand. With regard to the long estimate that had been read by Capt. Charlton, many of the items, such as postal, police &c., were charges of the General Government. Butwhether or not, they were questions for. a future Provincial Council — not for discussion here. The real question, from which the meeting had been rather drawn away, was simply separation or no separation. Was separation, for which an almost unanimous petition had been forwarded -to the General Assembly, to be abandoned on call of a minority — then small and now smaller ; or was the District of Napier at once to be created a new Province. He thought there could be no doubt as to what the decision of the meeting would be. (Cheers). G. Worgan Esq. would not detain the meeting long, as he was quite satisfied what the result of the division would be. He had heard a good deal of facetiae and levity, but had not heard the subject dealt with in a proper tone, except by Mr. FitzGerald. Whatever reason he (Mr. W.) - had heard, had been from that gentleman. He (Mr. W.) stood there as a freeholder and a runholder, and as the employer of 10 or 12 working men. His interests were identical with theirs, and he had no object in opposing the movement^ beyond, a desire to serve the District. They were; about to venture on a dangerous course — rabout to erect a magnificent structure without counting the cost. With regard to. the remark that Capt. Charlton's estimate was equal to that of the whole Province; he (Mr. W.) believed that the new. Province would be quite as expensive as; the original one. (Oh, oh). They might "oh" as much as they pleased, but they would remember that they were warned beforehand — that an old man had told them that separation would be the beginning of taxation. There would, in fact, be no way of meeting public expenses than by drawing a scheme of assessment, or falling back, as to the only resource, upon the publiclands. In what position would the runholdersi.be placed were every scrap of land in.. the : district to be forced into the market ? With reference to what had been said concerning the double elective element, in approving of those opinions they were suicidally throwing away their dearest privileger-r-they were discarding the most demo.ciatic element in the Constitution Act. But he saw that they were determined upon hounding on separation : by mere force, of , numbers. , Do- it. in God's name ; : but; remember, when thettime of danger and difficulty arrives, .that old Worgan told you>how it would be. : , :. A. Alexander; Esq; said- that under the NewPr6vincesAct,which r dispensed -with the double elective element, the people had mdre^prtite&lbn than ever ;' » for, insteaid of having a party superintendent ,tof o^rrwde the- legislation of their representatives, they ijwoutahave, :the Governor of New Zealand, who might be >Dre.^jtfed/.toT^ and, ; whj^omSh^n^]TOto|^^^^^o|^ '-' Jojact -wth^i^^'i^o^B^jwfi^^Tal^* ■- petition pn« sijgn^dffte, »» p|o-

traction to men of capital intending to immigrate./ Napier, at present overlooked, yrduld-theft have quite as much chance as WelHngtoj .itself. : ""Arid -with the increase : of popiilation, the customs revenue would increase- in "proportion. It had been asked where'are the funds to come from to <jon•'^acjt'th'p'pußlic business of the new pro- ' vincev ' He would ask, in return, where are thi'fShds i : ii; : "Wellington to do the great thingi -that are ex pected of it 1 Were they not drawir from Ahuriri, WaiVganui, and other outlying districts?" Had Wellington notir&ceived from this district, during a period of IS months, in land revenue alone, upwards of 42,000Z, of whbh certainiy not mote than 4000£ or 5000/ had been spant iir.jJh'is district ; and he believed that, but for trije enorgy of the settlers, not a tenth of trlat'-sruhi would have been en^ended. And speaking' ;tsf energy, it would generally bo fofeVd'^n teply to what had been said about wifti^i*>f' intelliffence t that energy and'intelligence; Hpent together". Wich regard to the apprehended falling off in the land revenue We believed that there were not less than 1 |" million of acres held within the district which at 5s per acre would realise 300,0002. No' doubf, therefore, there would always be sufficient land revenue to meet all demands upon, it. Mr. Alexander, after some fur- , ther observations, said that he hoped all would sign the petition, and that their friends of the opposition would think better of it and join the movement. (Cheers.) ' Joseph Rhodes Esq. said that he had heard all sorts of estimates as to the probable expense of the new government, varying from £500 up to £22,000. The last -estimate could "very easily be got over, for it was simply absurd. The Province of Taranaki, with double the population of Hawke's Bay, was governed at an annual expense of«£1000. That, however, only shewed what could be done ; but was no reason why Hawke's Bay should not expend £5000 or £6000. He had no doubt that the first year's revenue would bs £10.000, and that, of that sum, at least £5000 wpuld be spent on roads and other permanent improvements. The fact had latterly been prominently brought forward that, while during a period of 18 months the land revenue of the whole province was £62,000, the proportion derived from this district was £42,000. Why should it not be the same ggain. (Mr. Worgan,—Because the best of the land is sold.) Some people would never be convinced. Were ■ he to prove incontestably that the land would yield 25,000? per annum, Messrs. Worgan and Co., he was certain, would not be. The fact was that the best portion of the land" was yet to he bought ; aud that what had already been raised from land sales was insignificant in comparison with what might he expected during the next 7 years. He would not be surprised to see the proceeds of land sold within this district amount during that time to 120,0"00£. ■" Mr. Worgan had proposed that they should postpone the adoption of the petition till that day six months. Why, he (Mr. R.) thought 14 or 15 days a very great delay. (Cheers.) Allusion had been made to the separation petition, and to the fact of circumstances "being now changed ; but the fact was that separation was more urgently required than ever. Had Wellington wished to save this district, it could have done so two years ago by simply spending one half its revenues within its boundaries ; instead of which not one eighth of the money raised within the district was so expended. And now, at the last moment, when the superintenl dent had no power to do so, he offers every thing we want. But who could give a guarantee that any promise now made could be kept. Considering that another general electron was pending, and that no one ctttiHi foresee the result, no guarantee less than a cheque for the money would be worth a" straw. To the present movement he believed there were but six opponents in tlfe district. And would half a dozen men ■ succeedMn inducing the body of the-elec-tors'-«tb sell ' their • birthright for what, at Best,- was an uncertainty ? He hoped not, and trusted that every one present would sign the petition. (Cheers.) > - ' Tlie^Chairman intimated that an adjdiaMiment of the meeting would take-place "^ii% r Merlperiod of the day ; and that in thefineaiitime] the petition would lie on the taT)le>fox signature. ■/-,-". : >'': : Id,-co«^e?of:tbe:aftern6pn,-98'sigh||iires. . y^efe '^tkched io the parchment; ' ! ?$ : '"/^^^V'f^!^^i^^^i9!ie6tiiig; took place at 7 : -o^^^^^^^'^V^e;''^&XeßA t we V ■;■, :^^e&o&j,. ' £• <soo£i» EsaV;secondW Ehar As!YN ; Esij;y and carried,

"That- a Committee be appointed, with authority to borrow money in case of necessity for the purpose- of carrying on such public works as are already in progress, and to fulfil existing contracts. Such Committee to consist of the Board of Wardens of Waip.ukurau, Messrs. H. S. Tiffen, Alfred Newman, Donald Joseph Rhodes, J- B. Ferguson, A. Alexander,/-?. H. FitzGhirald, and GK S. Cooper, — with power to add to their number. ■*■■ It was next moved by H. B. Skaly Esq., seconded by T. 11. . FitzGehald Esq., and carried, — That a Committee he appointed to obtain signatures to the petition, and forward it to his Excellency the Governor, and also to collect subscriptions (o pay 1 the necessary expenses of sending round the petition. Such Committee to consist of Messrs. Tiffen, Fitz Gerald, Ferguson, and Kelly. It wits next moved by the Rfv. W. Colenso, seconded by Capt. Carter, and carried, — That the best thanks of the inhabitants of the Hawke's Bay district are due to his Excellency the Governor and his responsible advisers for the favourable consideration of their petition of Februttvy last, which ha 3 resulted in the enactment of the " New Provinces Act, 1858." A vote of thanks to the Chairman terminated, the proceedings of this, the greats est meeting yet seen in. Hawke's Bay, and, we trust, the most important in its resulst.