PROLONGED BATTLE

Hawera Star, Volume LIV, 22 August 1935, Page 9

PROLONGED BATTLE

EGMONT COUNTY TROUBLES Six Hours’ Stonewalling DIVISIONS DEMANDED THE “OFFICIAL OPPOSITION” “I can’t allow this sort of thing to go on. If it does lam going to fesign,” declared the chairman of the Egmont County Council, Mr W. G. Green, at a special meeting of the council yesterday. The meeting was called to consider a motion by the chairman, and Crs. W. A. Sheat, J. S. Tosland and! E. A. Collins banded themselves into the “official opposition” and they put up a stonewall which held the measure up for six and a-quarter hours before it was adopted. The meeting was called for 11 a.m. and it started at 11.10 a.m. It was 6.25 p.m. before the “official Opposition” exhausted their points Of order and amendments and the motion was then put through. Despite a time limit of 10 minutes, Crs. Sheat and Tosland contrived! to move amendments and so give themselves further opportun-, ity to speak. Acts and recorded legal opinions were resorted to, and legal advice was sought from a New Plymouth solicitor during the brief adjournment for lunch.

'The motion .deliberated on by the meeting was that interest charges on inscribed loans totalling £13,375 be paid ont of the general county fund. Crs. G. Gibson, A. J. Lilley, E. G. Holmes, j. Young and R. Cassie were the members who put the motion, through after the chairman had moved it, but not before several amendments had been disposed of, Cr. Tosland demanding divisions on two of them., FIRST POINT OF ORDER When the meeting opened Cr. Shear rose to a point of order. “I want to ask a question,” he said, “and that is if there are any councillors here that are payers of special rates under the proposals concerned, because Section 82 of the Counties Act disqualifies them from taking part in these proceedings.” Cr. Sheat nominated several special loans in which he. believed councillors were interested, and he reiterated his remark About disqualification of any councillor “if he has interests conflicting with the interests of the general ratepayers, and he is liable to a fine of £SO if he knowingly takes part in these proceedings.” The clerk, Mr G. W. Rogers, made a brief survey of the records, and stated that the chairman was interested in a special loan on Opourapa Road and Cr. Cassie in a special loan on Newall Road. Cr. Sheat: I lodge a formal objection to these councillors taking part as their interests are in conflict with the interests of the general ratepayers. The chairman: Do you want me to retire ? Cr. Sheat: Yes. ‘fW!e are becoming the laughing stock of the public for the time we take over our business,” said the chairman.', “I am going to ask that councillors be put on a time limit of ten minutes. We had two hours of fruitless discussion at the last meeting. I don’t want it said: ‘Green, you allow too much latitude.’ ” Cr. Sheat: I ask for a ruling on my objection. The chairman said he was waiting for the clerk to give him a list of all those affected. There were many more interested in special loans. Why did Ci'. Sheat not give a full list of the special loans ? Cr. Sheat: We are only dealing with inscribed loans. Cr. Sheat was asking for a ruling when the chairman debarred him from further talk and asked him to sit down. SEATS, PLEASE! Cr. Sheat: I hold the floor and 1 am asking a question. The chairman: Please resume your seat Cr. Sheat: I want the information and I am going to get it. The chairman: Take your seat, please, or —< (pointing fo the door). Cr. Sheaf: I’ll take my seat. “You have asked for inscribed loans and I am going to give them to you,” said the chairman. “I am not a solicitor, and I have not got a legal mind. I am going, to ask the clerk to read a legal opinion in a similar case.” The clerk then read the legal opinion, which stated that the section did not'apply to a member who was interested merely as one of a section of the community. The councillor in question could legally vote. “Any person who is a special ratepayer in connection with, say, the Opourapa Road, has a pecuniary interest in this. I am not trivial about this,” Cr. Sheat declared. “I am seriously interested in this. This means that the special liability is to be unloaded on to all the ratepayers. 1 think that this is so Unfair and wrong that we are determined to leave no stone unturned to defeat it. If councillors take part in this and they are not entitled to, we will take to the protection of Section 82 of the Counties Act: Any payer of a special rate has an interest apart from being a member of the general public. 1 think there is no shadow of doubt that tjiis prevents anyone paying a special rate from voting for the abolition. The next section provides a fine of £SO for any offending councillor.”. The chairman: I am going to he fined £SO then. ALL FIGHT POSSIBLE Cr. Sheat: I’m not going to see this go through without all the fight

possible. I will us© all the power out of the council possible.” The chairman: That is a very spirited action, Cr Sheat. It is just what I would expect from you, sir. Reference ,t° a previous imposition was made by the chairman aiid Cr. Sheat asked him to name the imposition.

The chairman: Having all the money spent in your riding. Cr, Tosland: It’s a lie. The chairman: Please withdraw that. “I’ll withdraw that and I’ll say it’s an untruth.” “You’ll please withdraw that too. You know that’s wrong.” “You prove it.” “You’ll withdraw.”

“All right. I’ll withdraw under pro' test,” • , - “You withdraw. I’ll have none o. that.” “We’ll use every legal means in our power to obstruct and prevent this, said Cr. Tosland. The clerk read section 82, which states: No councillor or chairman shall vote on or take any part in the discussion of auy matter before the council in which 'he has directly or indirectly, by hiiflself or his- partner, any interest apart from . any interest in common with the public. THE ONLY HONEST MEN. Cr. Gibson rose to a point of order. “They think they are the only honest men on the council and they reflect on the common honesty ox councillors representing other ridnigs,” lie- declared. “You call it an imposition but it is not in any shape or form. The Counties Act applies to the county as a unit, and ,we must consider such matters -on a bioad county basis. I ■ object to this statement. You put yourself iff place of the two north ridings,” he said to Ct. Sheat. Ci-. Sheat: You put yourself m our position. “I did,” replied Cr. Gibson. “We helped with your special rates for years.” Cr. Cassie stated that prior to the conversion proposals the interest charges were: South £2220, central £1716, north £1164. All the interest and maintenance was paid by the council and the north and central ridings had to pay an unfair share. This gave an opportunity of righting the position. Those figurfes were a good answer to any suggestion of imposition on the south riding. “It is not an issue between ridings but between the payers of special rates and the payers of general rates and that is the point Of view from which-1 have been attacking it because it is unloading the liability frotri special ratepayers to general ratepayers,” said Cr. Sheat. If the south riding had more bridges it was due to a geographical accident, hut more public work's money had been spent in the. other ridings.” The .whole point is that we are going to relieve the spe-1 cial ratepayers of their liability at the | expense of the general ratepayers. It j is penalising the big majority to- benefit just a, few. If the ratepayers iii the other ridings realised the effect they Would be making as much song as we are.”

Cr. Lilley rose to speak when- Cr. Sheat interrupted. He was told by the chairman that Cr. Lilley “has got the floor.” ADVANTAGE OF COt'NTY FUNDS. Other ridings Saddled themselves with special loans, said Or. Holmes, and while they were paying, the, south riding had the advantage of the county funds and were getting subsidies of two and three for one for special expenditure. They had their roads metalled mostly with county funds. The south councillors claimed that they had had special loans, but these were few and far between. “I resent the statements that the south riding got away with practically the whole of the revenue of the other ridings,” said Cr. Collins. “I resent such statements coming from a man of your intelligence, Cr. Cassie. You can rate as you like in your riding and spend as you like. We never once got away with your revenue. As Cr. Sheat says, it is not one riding against another. * That is not in the interest of the council. Unless we get down to these matters in a businesslike way I don’t know where we’ll get. It must be hard for you, Mr Chairman, to listen to this ono riding stuff.”

“I resent more than anyone the suggestion that I even tried to get away with anything,” said the chairman. “If the council is not prepared to take this ruling we must -submit it to a solicitor. I will ask you if you will accept this ruling. lam prepared for the special rates to remain where they are if the council, wants them to. I never voted on the subject and I want Cr. Sheat to realise that I, personally, would -submit it to a solicitor. None of us is looking for personal gain—at least, I hope not. Cr. Collins then moved that legal advice he sought and Cr. Cassie tseconded the motion.

RIE-OPEN THE WHOLE BUSINESS. ‘■‘Two councillors are definitely interested in. the inscribed loans,” said Cr. Sheat. “Any councillor interested .a any other special loans is in a similar position. I will yet make an attempt to re-open the whole business and have it decided by people who are not interested. "I am going to have this reversed.” The chairman: Arc you speaking to the motion? Cr. Sheat-: I just want to say— The chairman: Cr. Sheat, are you speaking to the motion? Ci*. Sheat: Yes. The chairman: Then keep to it. “If the ruling is that they can’t vote, then it is quite possible that some who voted on the conversion were not entitled to, and I am going to- get the thing opened up,” said Cr. Sheat. “If we are going to a solicitor it may mean another meeting,” said Cr. Gibson. The chairman: Well we can’t help that. Cr. Sheat: Wo will have more trouble. Cr. Gibson: It looks as though you are looking for trouble. Cr. Sheat: I am going to have the thing done properly. ' The chairman: If you can’t keep quiet, please retire. ‘ Now, I mean that. “We will have to refer it to a solicitor,” said the chairman. . “All spe-

j cial ratepayers are interested. Per- | haps wo are not entitled to strike rates.”“Bunkum,” ejaculated Cr. Sheat. The motion was then carried, and the question referred to the solicitor, | the meeting adjourning in the meantime. LEGAL OPINION! RECEIVED. When the meeting resumed about two hours later the clerk announced that the council’s solicitor was definitely of the opinion that the councillors in special rating areas were fully entitled to vote. He would not say that the matter was- not arguable but all cases which he had looked into showed that the objection should he overruled. “I am not going to Vote because I think there is no heed,” fcaici , the chairman, “and I won’t vote unless I am driven to it, and then I would certainly use my casting vote,” He then moved the resolution, for the consideration of which the meeting was called, and Ci-. Lilley seconded it. “I don’t want anyone else - to pay my rates,” said Cr. Cassie. “If that is the question, perhaps I had better abstain from voting.” “I feel that this resolution is the only equitable iVay over the difficulty,” said the chairman. “The interest to be paid is £490 10s, Which is at present paid by the south riding £llO, central riding £l2B 3s, north riding £252 7s. If the total was paid by the general account, the ridings would pay about £163 10s each. This would make a small difference to the south riding, particularly when compared with the amount to be paid if the loans were converted as area loans. The central riding would also pay slightly more, while the north riding would be l’elieved a little. The north riding had a small portion of the special loans and, it was surely not asking too much for the inscribed loans interest to be paid by the general fund. I am not very particular, but it is hot fair to the ratepayers as they are carrying the burden of the main loans at present.” .

“By asking you to agree I am satisfied that the north riding is not asking anything out of place,” continued the chairman. “Under a previous resolution it was agreed that State loans, apart from inscribed loans, should be chargeable to the general fund. The north riding was not in debt, while the others were. The north riding bad been paying more than its share of the overdraft, and by others agreeing to accept the responsibilities for small amounts it would relieve the north riding of £B3 17s. If the council agreed to that they Would be doilig justice. If the council did not agree the northern ratepayers would feel they they had not been treated kindly, as most of the main, loans 'had been spent in the central and south ridings. “DO THE CORRECT THING.” “I appeal to councillors to try to do the correct thing,’.’ he added. The charges should foe made over the Whole county So that the users of the roads would he made to pay. This was one way of making the users pay so far as t.he ratepayers of the county as a whole were concerned.

“I ask you not to threaten to do anything out of the council to- try to upset because it ivill hot do the ratepayers any good. I ask you to take the commonsense view and decide upon it to-day without any feeling.”

On Cr. Gibson’s motion a time limit of ten minutes was imposed on speakers, Cr. Sheat voting against the resolution. From the outset of the loan conversion proposals he was opposed to special loans being charged over the whole county, said Cr. Tosland. At tlie last meeting, which had proved informal, he had moved an amendment that they be converted on a riding basis. There was a big principle at stake. Instead of the ridings being better off they would find themselves further in debt, so defeating the purpose of the Loans Conversion Act. When the main loans were spent on roads and bridges in. the south and central ridings no objections were raised. To say that the south riding appropriated any moneys was- quite beside the point because that riding had been saddled with additional areas of low valuation and on which muck of the money had been spent.

He had been a member of the council for 15 years, continued Cr. Tosland, and he had never regarded himself as a riding member. However, if he felt that the council was doing anything which was -restricting or removing the rights of the ratepayers whom lie represented he must take steps. Nothing was further from the truth than the allegation that while some had been paying interest on special loans others had been deriving advantage from the county funds. The Act was passed in order to> give universal relief, said Cr! Tosland in conclusion, but if the chairman’s motion were carried the purposes of the Act would bo defeated.

PENALISING THE MAJORITY. “The main issue is not riding versus riding but the penalising of threequarters of tlie ratepayers for the benefit! of the other quarter,” said Cr. Sheat. “Is it prudent to make a present to these few special ratepayers? If the council had a surplus and made a present, then there would be a- case for it, but now we will have to cut out some of the work which we have considered essential.” It is- so preposterous and absurd that I doubt if there is another case to parallel it in the whole of the country. No more preposterous proposition was ever put before a county council. “If the conversion had been made in the way he considered best the general account would have been saved £3OO. Now it was going to lose £BOO. Councillors were falling down on their jobs if they neglected their roads to pay the inetrest on someone else’s inscribed loans. The main loans had nothing to do with the question for they were sanctioned by the whole of the ratepayers, knowing how they were to be. spent. “I’m going to fight this thing in this council and out and I’ll keep above the ground all the time,” he declared. “There will be no- underground work. If this is going through it is time wo had a. thorough clean-up and got a council which will look after the interests of the whole of the ratepayers. Ch'. Sheat then moved the following amendment: That before any steps are taken, meetings of ratepayers be held in each riding, the whole of the facts to be placed before the meetings by councillors, “If they sanction it, then the blood is on their own heads,” he added.

Cr. Tosland seconded the amendment. It was now only a few minutes before five and the next outburst came from the chairman, wno threatened to resign. CHAIRMAN’S OUTBURST. - “I can’t allow this sort of thing to go on,” he declared. “If it does I am going to resign. I have to get home. I am not prepared to sit with councillors who are going to stonewall as you have been stonewalling to-day.” Cr. Sheat: We abided by the time limit. “You actually say that no matter what happens to-day you will carry it further/’ continued the chairman. “I ask you what is the use of carrying it further. The fair thing is to abide by the resolution of the council.” if .VoU are going to have petitions going round the country we will have all this strife again and we will be the laughing stock of the whole Dominion. ’ ’

Or. Sheat: Other counties have had similar troubles. The chairman: But not on the same petty technicalities. “When Parliament passed this Act it never intended the interpretation which has been put on it,” said Cr. Toslafid, “and I feel as the residents of the colonies in America felt when impositions were put upon them. I hope you are not as stupid as the king and others who fought the war and lost the most valuable jewels in the crown. We would be forced to secede.

“It is no use your talking like that and making those threats, Cr. Tosland,” said the chairman-. “You know- you wouldn’t get it. We would oppose it and no commission would iisteii to you. I am going to put the amendment.” Crs. Sheat, Tosland aiid Collins were the only affirmative voters. Or. Tosland then moved a seeond amendment that the loans be charged to the riding accounts, and Or. seconded. UNFAIR BOTH WAYS. If it was unfair to charge the loans to the county funds it was equally unfair to charge them to the riding accounts, said Or. Young, who up to then had been silent. Many, who at present were not paying special rates, would have to help others.

“And the reverse is even more unfair,” said Cr. Sheat, “‘for if it is tvrong to put if on the ridings it is more so' to put it on the county. The only right thing to do is to leave it to those who raised the loans. The cousdil would have been better if it had dever entertained conversion. The Government jockdyed Councils into the conversion to save the -State Advances. I am going to vote for the amendment and against the motion as amended as the only way of giving expression to my feelings.” Cr. Tosland rose to speak when the chairman interrupted Him. “I would just like to Teply, ” said Or. Tosland.

“You’ve had enSiigh,” said the chairman. “You reply at your right time. You’ve had three or four goes at it already.” “I ican prove that you have had the best end of the stick all through/’ continued the chairman. “The north, riding has had the worst end of the stick up to the present day, but all in the north riding are men. I am in favour of carrying the riding point of view, but I believe the other is the only fair way. But we are men enough to show you that we will carry it out, I can assure you that whatever is done here to-day they, from the north riding, will not go through the riding with petitions and take up the cudgels outside. Whatever you do when you carry this resolution, let it drop.” Cr. Tosland referred to his direct negative during the morning and said that it had arisen through a mvisunderstanding. DISTRIBUTION OF INTEREST. The chairman said that the amount of interest at present being paid on inscribed loans was: South riding £49 16s Bd, central riding £53 4s, north riding £207 19s. The amendment that the loans be a charge on riding accounts was put to a show of hands, Crs. Tosland, Siheat and Collins voting for it and Crs. Holmes, Lilley, Gibson and Yoking against it. The chairman and Cr Cassie did not vote. Cr. iSheat asked the chairman to vote and he replied 'that his ordinary vote would go for the amendment and his -casting vote against it. He had never yet carrieid a measure on his casting vote and lie did not intend to do so now. “Councillors must vote or leave the table,” declared Cr. Toslandy demamding a division. On the division, Cr. Cassie joined trie negatives, and the amendment was lout by three to five. The chairman: It is still open for another amendment. Cr. iSheat: I can’t think of one. Cr. Tosland: I can. I move that the matter be delayed for 12 months.

The amendment was lost on the voices.

Cr. -Sheat then thought out an amendment and moved that, if the Ihaia Road, Turu Road and Punehu Road loans were not already covered by the scheme, they be included in the resolution.

The clerk gave an assurance that those loans were -covered and' the amendment was also lost on the voices.

Cr. Sheat further declared thafci those loans were not in the proposals. ' If it was found that they weri3 notin the council would have to thrash the whole matter again, said the chairman. After brief cross-table talk, the motion was put to the meeting» on a show of hands. Crs. Young, Ho lmes, Lillev and Gibson were for the motion and 'C«! Sheat, Tosland and Cc llins against it. \ “1 call for another division/ f \ demanded. Cr. Tosland. “I do not see why anyone should sit at the table and not declare his opinion/ ’ “You know whicli way I would

vote,” replied Cr. Cassie, and on the division he joined the -affirmatives. “Will we get this legal opinion in writing?” asked Cr. Sheat, “because if will affect the confirmation of this morion. I am not satisfied with a legal opinion over the telephone. I am going into the question myself and unless that is correct the whole business is out of order. I believe I am right. ’ ’ The -clerk assured the council that the legal opinion would be put into writing. “The meeting is closed,” announced the chairman, and the time was 5.25 p.m.