A Public Debate.

Hastings Standard, Issue 408, 25 August 1897, Page 3

A Public Debate.

NAPIER V. HASTINGS. The public debate on the question " Are the Natives of New Zealand entitled to equal privileges with the Europeans of the colony between a team from the Napier Athenaeum Club and five members of the local Debating Society was held in the Oddfellows' Hail last night. The Mayor (Mr C. A. Fitzßoy) presided, Messrs W. Dinwiddie and \V. Beilby acted as judges, Mi* If. A. Cornford as umpire, and Mr Allan M'Corkindale as timekeeper. The Athenseum Club was represented by Messrs Caughley (leader), Ball, Bear, A. B. Gibson, and H. Gibson, whilst the local reputation was in the hands of Messrs A. L. D. Fraser (leader), S. Pattison, G. Yenables, Beharrell, and O'Brien. Mr Caughley in his opening address dwelt on the fact that Maoris were superior to other savage races. They were not conquered but placed themselves under British rule, and in return should have equal privileges with their fellow subjects. He maintained that the Maori? were as qualified to fill any position as Europeans, and if they possessed equal qualifications they should get equal privileges. The Maoris held their lands in common, the result being that what was everyone's business was nobody's business, and the Natives got the name of being thriftless owing to their having no inducement to work because of their communistic life. At the schools the Maori children displayed equal grasp and intelligence with the white children and often outstripped them in learning. When the British assumed the control of the natives with iheir consent it became their duty to extend them the same privileges as were enjoyed by their own race. Mr A. L. D. Fraser, leader of the opposition, laid it down that the leader of the debate was submitting a false issue before the meeting. The question was not whether individual Maoris, with exceptional qualifications, should share European privileges, but whether the race as a body should receive them. He said no, because the Natives were incapable of understanding these privileges and using them in a rational manner. If Natives were permitted to traffic in their land they would become paupers, inasmuch as the commercial instinct in the Maori was incapable of competing wilh the business shrewdness of the pa keha. It was the old story of the hawk and the pigeon. The land on which he stood Avas not bought ; it was stolen. Consequently it was the duty of the whites to protect the Natives against themselves by denying them the privilege of selling their lands. Maori women were also denied the privilege of drinking strong liquors in order to conserve the race. The Natives cannot be expected to be in line with nineteen centuries of civilisation after undergoing the civilizing process for 50 years. Proper Government meant the greatest good for the greatest number, and the minority whether black or white cannot rule. Maoris should not get voting privileges as they know nothing of European requirements and consequently have 110 sympathy in the matter whilst their vote may be the means of driving the country to revolution. It was their duty to civilise the Maori, and help to make him happy and prosperous. Mr Ball considered it was not only the duty of the majority to rule, but to protect the race over which they ruled. The Waitangi Treaty made with the Natives was broken. The Native was quite as wide-a-wake in business matters as the Europeans, and he complained of not being allowed to sell his land. Mr O'Brien said a couple of centuries ago the Maoris were cannibals. They were only in the stone age of civilisation, and they would require centuries of education before they would be fitted to partake of European responsibilities. Mr T. W. Bear considered the Natives a very thoughtful and longheaded race, who always gave tribal matters grave consideration before taking action. The franchise had been extended to women, who had no previous experience, and why not give it also to Maoris, who had and who were the most intellectual savage race in the world. Mr Beharrel said the Maoris were amply represented in Parliament better in fact !han the colonists. Native land holders were thriftless and let their lauds go to waste and their fences decay. They would probably improve, but in the meanwhile they were unfit for equal consideration with the industrious and thrifty European. Mr B. Gibson denied that the Maori was thriftless. The Native shearer was much sought after, but was miserably housed by bis employers. The Natives were naturally sch ilars and many took their degrees. A had told him that he would soil good land to the whites at £5 an acre if permitted. There was no race hatred in New Zealand and as Britishers they should protect the Waitangi Treaty. Mr Yenables said all barbarous races must be thoroughly civilised before they could take a stand with the Europeans. From 1862 to 1894 the Natives had full power to trade in their lands, with the result that they were gradually becoming landless, and numbers of the Waikato tribes were already paupers on the community. It had been stated that the Treaty of Waitangi was unalterable, but such was not the case, as the Treaty was broken at the instance of the Maoris in 1862, and remained incperate until the coming into operation of the Land Court Act of 1894, whieh was the means of compelling the Maori to reserve 640 acres for himself and family. It was unfair to say that the Maori should participate in the enhanced value of the land, as the Enropeaus had built the railways, roads, and bridges and had bad to pay the interest on fcb* money borrowed for their con-

struction, for it was only since 1894 that Native lands have become subject to taxation. The tendency of all legislation had been in the direction of protecting the Maori from himself, and everv Government had endeavored to grapple with the question of Native land, but no measure could possibly be framed to suit all the iribes. The West Coast Natives bad their remaining lands reserved to them in Taranaki, which were administered by the Public Trustee, and the rents had risen in seven years from £7OOO to £17,000. Ilr 11. Gibson said be had business experience of Maoris and found them very shrewd. It was no argument that because they had been barbarous a long time ago they were now unfitted to rank with Europeans in the matter of privileges. There were many Europeans intellectually incapable of properly exercising the franchise, and the weal of the country was quite as much endangered by them as it could be by the Maoris. The Natives got about 10s an acre from the Government for their lands instead of the £5 or £25 they would receive if they had the privilege of trading their lands. He did not know about roads and bridges, but the Maoris showed themselves points ahead in the matter of forethought by never attempting a breakwater, it was absurd to say Maoris could not use privileges discreetly. The c-hance of exercising them was never extended to them, and until they were given the privileges it was wrong to say how they would use them. Mr S. Pattison compared the Maori with' European civilisation. From 1840 to 1894 it was the trend of the colonial legislation to protect the Maoris, not from the Europeans but from themselves. It took the British 1100 years to attain their present civilisation, whilst the Maori bad only a training of 50 odd years. With regard to the Maori shearer living in filthy huts, he said that the Maori shearer was paid a certain rate out of which he had to feed and lodge himself, and if he choose to live like a pig he (the speaker) presumed that was his oppont nt's-idea of a high state of civilisation. There was no race hatred, because the Maoris were treated too well by the British. There were few Maori scholars and fewer still with degrees, but even these drifted back into barbarism when the influence was removed. The leader of the opposition then spoke and it was concluded by the leader of the debate reviewing the arguments. The judges awarded the debate to the local men without appealing to the umpire. After the debate the visitors were entertained at supper in Cowlick's Cafe, where an excellent spread was prepared. Various toasts were proposed and responded to and the visitors were lustily sheered as they left for home.