NATIVE LAND MATTERS.

Gisborne Times, Volume VIII, Issue 504, 18 August 1902, Page 3

NATIVE LAND MATTERS.

DISCUSSION AT FARMERS' UNION.

At a meeting of the Farmers’ Union on Saturday afternoon the following resolution came up again for discussion : “That the Gisborne Farmers’ Union deplores the stagnant position which recent legislation has created by practically fying up and stopping all dealings in Native lands, to the serious loss of this district in particular and the colony as a whole; and while the dealing with larger tribal area by a Council may be advantageous, it is the opinion of this Union that Native lands which have been individualised into moderate sized blocks, such as 640 acres first-class land and 2000 acres second-class, the area of which shall be definitely ascertained in the order, that the individual Natives shall have the right themselves to deal with the land as they in their present advanced intellect may think fit, subject to the usual safeguards which are provided by the Trust Commissioner’s Court by a Judge, seeing that a Native seller has been paid a fair consideration, and has other land left for his maintenance and support.” The Chairman, Mr W. D. Lysnar, said that he did not know whether it was advisable to go into the matter that afternoon. He thought the best way would be to take a vote as to whether or not consideration of the matter should be deferred.

Mr Birrell said that it would be better to defer the discussion or if they went into it they would probably be there until a very late hour. The Chairman said that if they were going to do anything it should be done at once, because Parliament was in session. An informal discussion had taken place at the last meeting, and the resolution had been read so that people might have time to consider it.

Mr’JWallis asked had not the Natives already got power to do what was suggested. The Chairman : No. Now they have to do it through the Native Council. Mr Wallis : If we begin to fight them we are fighting the whole Government, as the Native Council is one of the pet. schemes of our own member. Tho Chairman: I take it that it is more tho Premier’s than Mr Carroll’s. Mr Wallis : I think the Premier would give way to the Native Minister in tho matter, and in fact it is one of the things in regard to which ho has given way. I believe ;that the Councils could go further than tho power wo propose to ask. Tho Chairman: Not in the caso of individual natives.

Mr Wallis : No, but tho Council could.

The Chairman : But the native must first refer it to tho Counoil: the native must first strip himself of the land and transfer it to the Council, and then tho Council has power to deal with it. The Act is exactly tho same as passed by Sir John Ballanco in 1886. That remained on the Statu to Book for some time, and not one acre was dealt with under it. It was given a fair trial, and failed. This is a repetition of it. We know that it has boen on the Statute Book for two years, and nothing has been done. This is an oxtremoly important mattor to this district. The Act affects the local bodies, because tho lands are tied up, producing nothing, and yielding nothing to tho local bodies. Wo want the lands oponod up, so that thoy can bo used and will contribute thoir share to the roading of tho country. This (tho motion) only refers to the dealing with small aroas of land: that has not been a success. It really comes to the question whether we are content to remain in a state of lethargy, and to let things go on from year to year indefinitely without any progress being made, If we know that a thing is not right, and is

not going to be productive of good, why should we sit down and accept it ? The motion no doubt goes against the present Government, but wo must do many things in this Farmers’ Association that will come in contact with them, or we cannot go on. That is not a reason why wo should burk the consideration of it. Of course it is entirely for the meeting, to decide whether we should take the motion now. I was prepared to move it, and to give you a short summary of the manner of dealing with native land from past years up to the present, and you would then bo able to judge for yourselves whother the natives, with their past experience, are likely to adopt this Act in a general way, or whether it is likely to help us. Thoy must first transfer their land to the Council, and deprive thornselves of any voice thereafter. It is true that they sot up committees, but that h only to define reserves and the areas o individuals, not as to tho method of deal ing with tho land. There are some no here to-day whom I would like to se< present when this motion is finally de cided. Mr Birrell stated that one thing oi which the British nation was proud wa that thoy never hanged a man unt: ■,hey had tried him. In regard to thi

question they were not unanimous, even

on the committee ; that was why the resolution was not brought forward at the previous meeting. Many solutions of the Native land difficulty had been attempted. It was unfortunate that it took so long to get the Maori Councils into operation, but numerous obstacles had been encountered. But tho Councils having been appointed and the work commenced he did not think it would be worthy of them as a Farmers’ Union to condemn the scheme without i® being given a trial. They were not there to bolster up the Government, and if this was wrong or not practicable they would not give it thenapproval. But here they had the thing fully considered and being put into working operation, and why should they now pass such a resolution before the trial was given ? No doubt.the motion meant almost a reversion to free trade in Native land. It was disguised, but the disguise was a thin one, and free trade practically was intended. Ho did not claim to be an authority in Native land matters, but he thought there should be a trial before condemnation. lie would like to hear the matter thoroughly debated, and without saying that Mr Lysnar was wrong, he would like to hear someone give them the opposite view ; that it should bo one of tho best debates it was possible for the Union to have, and that they should have the biggest meeting they could got, attended by those with the largest experience in Native land matters. If any one could show by practical experience that the Act would not work he for one would bo prepared to support the ideas of the resolution. It was a portion of the policy of the Government, but if that policy was wrong they had a perfect right to express their opinions against it.

Mr Acland Hood : Is not a good deal of land in tho East Coast being handed over to the Council '? Mr Birrell : Yes.

Mr Lysnar said that applied to largo areas that had not been through courts. The Act might have some effect with largo tribal areas. Ho would like to put Mr Birrell right on one point. It was true that tho Council system had not had a trial undor tho present Act, but they had it under the Act of 1868. Power was given to ten mombors to deal with land for the wholo of tho owners, lhat proved disastrous for the natives, tho ten who dealt with tho land getting the money, and the others getting nothing at all. (Laughter.) Then came the Act of Sir John Ballanco in 1886. That provided for tho land to pass on tho vote of a majority. A commission was set up to start with. They set up a native committee, and on tho vote of the majority tho commissioner was given full power to sell or lease, but not one aero of land was administered under it. Then again they had this committee nominated by the nativos as under the old Act, except that it was a fixed committee. The Act came into force in 1890, but nothing had been dono up to the present, except as to a few tribal aroas up tho coast, and that was all that would bo done under it; there would bo nothing done as to thoso small areas, for thoro was a want of confidence among tho nativos. A native would sooner trust anybody else than ho would a fellow native. They had no confidence in the committee, and wanted to rotain their own voice in what was dono with their own land. They had had the experience of the 1868 Act; they were acquainted with the working of it and knew the rosult. It would, he considered, bo better to defer the motion until a fuller mooting. Mr Bilham : Can a Nativo having land already in his own right deal with it, independent of tho present Council ? Mr Lysnar: If it is hold by two or less Natives, ho can deal with it, but if held by more than that it cannot bo dealt with except through the Council. Mr Bilham : Then it is simply an Act of coercion, in one respect ? Mr Lysnar : That is so. Tho legislation in regard to the Native quostion is not to solvo it, but to put dilliculties in tho way. Mr Bilham : That seems so. Mr Lysnar : They havo not tried to solve this question for many years. The Native legislation was in a sounder condition before 1894 when this swooping legislation of the present Government came in. Evory doubtful point had then been settled by the Privy Council, and solid settlement was going on. Then the 1894 Act was brought in, and now difficulties wore created The 1873 Act had caused all tho trouble here. It provided for all Natives in a block selling, and if the whole of them did not agreo the sale was bad. Buyers got a number to sell, but somo would hold out, and the title could not be completed. That is why there woro so many imperfect titles, and why validation was required. It was resolved to defer furthor discussion on the resolution, one gentleman remarking that they would be there all night if they tried to take the debato then.