ENGLAND REVISITED.

Evening Star, Issue 13092, 27 October 1908, Page 7

ENGLAND REVISITED.

INTERVIEW WWJH'CEHB' REV. DR GIBB. . [From Oua SnsciA£ CbßßpaJ'bNpEjfr.f^ LONDON, 'September 18. The Rev. Dr James Gibb, of Wellington, who has been spending-, ihs '.past revisiting England, after, iriany years', in New Zealand, was good' enough'V6* give* me this week the benefit of some of' ' deits'' on things seen in the"'course of his .:«derings. They are interesting; as Tbaisg-.flie-impressions of a. close observer and keen student of social affairs, whose long residence, first in the Old Country and then in New Zealand, has given him a particularly favorable standpoint ■ from which to compare and judge the present conditions in this country. ' ■-• • " THE DEAD HAND. "My impressions of the Old Country after a long absence? That is rather a large order," said Dr Gibb, " but perhaps I may summarise by emphasising your, adjective 'old.' The .contrast of which the colonial on holiday in Britain is chiefly conscious is between the newness—some might add the crudeness—of his own country, "and the. oldness—some might add the venerableness—of the Motherland. Your ancient buildings and the teeming historic associations of your country are no doubt, largely responsible for this feeling, but there is more to be said. The attitude of the British public to" social and political problems gives the colonial the impression- of the caution and conservatism characteristic of age. Tennyson hit off the situation exactly when he spoke of ' freedom slowly broadening down from precedent to precedent' in this country. You are worshippers of use and wont. Of course thU temperament has its advantages as well as its disadvantages, but a colonial may be forgiven for a certain feeling of impatience with your deliberateness, and of thankfulness that he lives in a land where 'the dead hand' of the past does not fetter the living present. I may illustrate this point I ani trying to make by a reference to the extra-, ordinary, and indeed alarming, contrast between the prodigal wealth and the unspeakable poverty of London. A New Zealander would say somehow or other this state of matters must be brought to an end. He might fail to effect any radical improvement, but he would never sit down, as it seems to me the aver-ace Englishman does, with the feeling that these things are ithe ordering of Providence, and that what has been must continue."

CHANGES IN SOCIAL CONDITIONS. "But with all this saying, I note not a few changes in your social conditions. This is the second visit I have paid to the Homeland during a colonial experience of twentysix years. The la*t time I was Home, thuv teen years ago, I was struck by the changes that had taken place. This time I am even more impressed in this way. Of course my impressions are largely superficial, but as far as material things are concerned, I think there has been a marked improvement m the condition of the working classes. They are better clad, appear to be better fed, and are certainly better housed than " they used to be. I saw a good deal of the slums of London, and although, as I have already indicated, there is such poverty there as might well give a man nightmare, I am sure that things are not so bad as formerly. The London County Council seem to have put an end to the filth and insanitation of which we used to read in books like 'How the Poor Live' and ' Horrible London.' All along the line there seems to have been improvement in this respect., In my native city, Aberdeen, the slums have well-nish disappeared." I suggested that Dr Gibb might indulge in some reflections on the subject of POVERTY IN THE OLD COUNTRY. He replied -. "In what I have been saying I have been 'reflecting' on this subject. You are advancing, but you have yet a very long way to go before you are abreast of Australasia. The improvement seems to be argely confined to the artisan and skilled laboring class. The condition of your unskilled laborer is dismal indeed. The other day, while cycling along a country road in Scotland in a perfect deluge of rain, I passed at least a score of out-of-works, and among them two middle-aged women, who asked for charity. They had no look of drunkenness or vice in their faces. They were thin, haggard, and miserably clad, lhey had already walked seven miles in search of work through the pitiless rain, and were drenched to the skin.' I noticed that the hands of one of the women were seamed and lined—evidently the hands of a hard worker. My heart bled for them, and I could have thanked God that no such experience could befall any man in all the Icngthand breadth of New Zealand. We have, I suppose, the desperately poor among 'us, but almost to a man they' are also the desperately il|-doir,gi Decent people wouldn't get down to this level in our country." ITS'CAUSATION. "What is the cause of this dire poverty in the HomelahdP Or let me put the question in this way: How is it that we in New Zealand happily know next to nothing of it> Is it that a new country necessarily secures a higher average of prosperity for the people than an old country? Is it due to our semi-Socialistic legislation? Is it that we are a more sober country, and; spendinnless in liquor, have more to spend on legitimate needs? One can ask questions °fa=t enough, but the answers? Of one thing "i am almost sure: drunkenness is as much a result as a cause of poverty in your country. What would you do if you were a coster with a wife and several children, and an average income of 7s 6d a week, of which Zs went out in rent for the half room, half cellar, which they call their home? Drink whenever you had the chance!" "DON'T KNOW, DON'T CARE." "What impression do you find New Zealand makes upon Home peopie?" I asked " 1 find that while u, certain number of people know a good deal about New Zealunu, and are simply interested in its legislative and other improvements, the "reat majority of folk at Home know little, and I am tempted to add, care less about their kinsfolk at the Antipodes. Again and again 1 have been minded to quote Kipling's rui" ing question • What do they know of Ln° land who only England know?' Of course % is possible that JNew Zealanders take themselves, too seriously; and every candid colonist will admit the existence among us 0 f a certain amount of bombast and ' cock-a-doodle-do.' It is well for us to remember that >ew Zealand is only a speck on the map of the British Empire, and that our population does not 'yet number a million souls. But it would be well if the people at Home were to realise not only what this smal population have done, but also that wft have a very great future before us. this is th/-. day ot small things with us but the day of great things is sure to come Australasia will one day be a great factor ot the Empire, and it is to the interest of every patriotic Englishman and Scotchman to do ah he can to strengthen the ties that bind the colonies to the Motherland, Ignorance and indifference only weaken these bonds. Every Australasian who returns to his own country dissatisfied Vith the attitude of the people at Home is a force making for the ultimate disintegration of the British Empire. The other day, in Stirling I got an intelligent-looking youngster to show me the- Castle and softie other places I wished to see. I had some conversation with the lad, and, among other things, asked him if he knew what New" Zealand was and where it was. 'Oh, aye,' said he; 'it's a country a hundred miles awa' from Scotland.' Symptomatic!" THE CHURCH AND THE PEOPLE.

I turned the subject, asking: "Do you think the churches are sufficiently in touch with the social views of the people?" ' " I think th« churches are trying very seriously to put themselves in touch with these views. The*rc has never been a time when the spirit of philanthropy dominated the churches as it does to-day. They do not generally get the credit they deserve for what they have done and are trying to do in this respect. And their critics tail to realise how difficult'and delicate the situation is' The Church may say, and does say, to the selfish rich man: 'Unless you'• use your, wealth to promote the. community you wili perish!' But this does not content the critic. He would have the Church identify itself with a definite political propaganda—take a stand with the out-and-out Socialist, and preach Collectivism ac the only solution of our social woes. Is it the Church's busu'aess to pronounce between-competing systems of economics? I do not think so, although I am aware that a great change seems to be taking place in the minds of many'chitrcKmen on the question. I was speaking l'recently with one of the best-known leaders'of tho United.Free Church, and in the course of conversation said that the people of New Zealand had gone three-fourths of the l way to Socialism. 'Three-fourths!' said he- 'I have gone four.fourths of that way.'" '.' • .

A PASSING PHASE. ,'■'■■,., ■',;'' "Do you notice a falling-off in the public support of the churches?" , ;- " Unquestionably. In Scotland it seems to me that only those churches are well at-*; tended where a man of strong individuality and' exceptional preaching' power occupies the.pulpit. The*old feeling for the Church as an institution is becoming decadent. But' there has at different periods been a much worse day for the churches than the present

time. The tide'foil tijrn. does not' hvo by bread alone,' and. the practical mater riali.sm of |he pawi;' If it doea-not' disappear civilisation f be" tpo l9pg : a At°/Xj£ %o \ntQ this."- ;^h:" .... •;■;•;:' V -*• <#*. . I asked another and. £ua] question." , ■ ; " Intereß%£ ll |ieopfe*- -$&, I have met ;a good ina.uy ft PViWber )0f PWHWentary...,representatives, •'• leaders:.-,qf N9^ponf<sr^M J ffi':ting) ijnd' oKWe churches in- Sc;o%jitL It estiAg, if invidßJn.s.W thing toV oompatoTinc? public men of •this.-, country with :tho ijmhKo; men of "New JSeajsuid- There is rouch,isno,r,a of polish and the culture of the schools. ,m. this side, but if the question related to grit, energy, virility,,. J do/'hqf th.inH that wa' in New Zealand would'come badly out bi the comparison." :>;>::■._ . ""