DUNEDIN UNITED FURNITURE TRADES UNION.

Evening Star, Issue 10182, 8 December 1896, Page 4

DUNEDIN UNITED FURNITURE TRADES UNION.

THE PROPOSED SCALE OF WALES. A meeting of the Dunedin United' Furniture Trades Union and of employers was held in the Cotl'ee Palace last night for the purpose of considering the proposed logs of prices for cabinetmaking and polishing works respectively. There were about thirty members of tlie union present, and amongst the employers were Messrs R. ChishXdin. A. Lorie, J. Gillies, Mackenzie, Sanders, H.iyaard, and others. The chair v. Os m-upF’d by the president o: the union, Mr E. G. Ward, who explained that at the lime of the meeting on the Chinese >.;'t sihm they had been recommended to go iu for a log, ami two speakers express--,! then-selves ns willing to pay a reasonable- prl-e. The log was m course of preparation a: that lime. When it was completed it was sent round to the employers, with a note attached saying when it was proposed to bring the log into operation, and asking the employers to say if they were favorable to the prices on the log, and if thev were not favorable to point out what thev objected to. the union had received replies from several employers that thev were agreeable, and from a few that the pti j-;-.= were not satisfactory. A deputation was appointed to wait upon the employe; s individually to see what was wanted and to tty and arrange a meeting of tin tm Moyas and tire union the empl-n. He might say that in their rounds the dcjv.it ttioa found that all the employ « r-. withoui exception, were of opinion th-.t the prices in the schedule were tco low, both for ihaiisdv.s and for th„- wo- ki rs, out they did not wvm difficulty, It was though- that it coahl be. bc-»t atrangi-d a: a mecti; x between the two panic?, and :l was the on] -cl of the meeting tin; :d.m . He a . v,.-n to underraise 1 priv - a .mi iu- nullybeheved that the re.-ic:-' the bg 'vere fair ami reasonable. v h.nm'i upon a w ige of 9s a d.'.v. v.im V: s no- min.-h to ask for a eioin.tm :!:er.—iH. a-, he,:;.' He might say it v,\. - i.-.c the n;-L ot the urhen to did im; v. idi v n pl-iyaa to take money out of ihei r • v. n ruokots :md give it to the employ: - --, Vr" Cinao ,a- : “Hear, hear.”) What ti:. v a.-.k-. d 0.. n n the retail ptice t: fund me 1-e tnisi 1 :o as to allow of a w .-f ‘.I; I lev in Lg p fid. Th« yHt that p-.ddd- v.vrid 1 .; i.dimg ;o pry it, knowing tint: tin- a -n ■■■' d-d- o m ti.o furniture trade wor.M bo o t in-. -. s.-psouaMc wage, He vo raid L tve tdv ii: p.;.r with the meeting to Mr A. :■ ti i ho wen Id hke to explain t» the o.ont!• n.on representing the I‘u-ss a m.tt r doom. :t-d with the meeting. Tb in..l ,-.: no. note t-; the Kvenino Star aoiindnd; :t than of that mating, hut i: = ’it-jnnin 0 1,.;’ bec-n mUvonsUti:-! into an in. [n'0';:0 ti that thi-ie woo u ddierf-nce of .ipo>'ioo ; 1 a.on the uni.tu o.n.d himself, and the public hj.. I been k-.l to believe that the meeting w.m to Amm-: pis attitude, and not the atth, ode ;di tb anniovas. T;;e fit \n t.d-d that e.l! employers had been, invited to uttt-nd. the meeting, and the- lio'd'-m v r-oat ioumd on Friday morning. Thoie was no individual di-put-) be-L-o non M r .vnoo and lho union. T;iar was ipdto evi ht.: h-v the action Mr Lorie had t..kcn • c-;.-. di..o ago v.h-n tncy hail a meeting in. -..0 hr ; .. o u- live report that- a Chinese furniuu .- f ■ 0.-t-y »;o to be started in Dunedin. Mr I. aie was present and took a p- omitm::' : -•-■ in ‘ Mst-nsdo-i, and said he ■lit inn: Vo'--nl a- ■ >■;..! in Chinese furniuti e, .Hi \ ron.-.ird U1 1 >to the funds of the union, Ue thc.v.glu that was sutiii-.ic-ntpioof t’-w.c id-no wo- ; ; o individual dispute between Mr L- re d -J.e union. Mr L-’Uir, continuing, said he received his notion (i the meeting on Saturday mornin::. xie h-ul K-c R tvV.'t-.y from Dtmediu fora month, and did not know vvlru had been going on. He h.-.-l a mwniig of employers called ’or Mond-tv ft on-mi. It wo.-, evident th.it them on iOio biitt-tnoss of feeling, but ;ts he w. . ' hn ini' inter of the union J-c w-os i. jt d;.-; 1 tie- thing fail to •die g: .--ui.-d.. .-o' d;nt v> 0.0 why be had called lhe mmio:.- Hlcsiajo;), Ti.e meeting was mil-;; tum.t-. -v o.dy a’ tended by two geutk-iR.R Li. d b s him-vii, bin ilu.-y bnl given ti.. m.-tter the fullest cm-sidcrath'-n from two ;-h! • !. in the afternoon until the rime cf the p-A-nut meeting. It was the wish of there who luul gone into the matter with iil'n tha: ,-ume ct the other employers present shoull soy vh.u they had to say before they cvpr ooi their vkws. Air H. T. .pa:: i.o.R- ( jii-.oker.oie and ;ng iu the afternoon was signed by How :w ’.mu'? .did i Vlw-uLendo-i They did not consider it iucutabc-ut that they should be consulted in tin- matter. Mr Chisholm said he thought it would have be-:n to the edification of the meeting and in the interests of everyone present if .Mr Lorie bad given them the result of the dolibeiHtKns 'not afternoon. He was not at that tun x b.-c.-.u.-e, hting out of town on tD'o.-.ivay. he did no: see U;c notice calling ■ mt-c'cm; myt's. When Mr San hj 0.m:.-:, 1 to him. and asked if he wois ht.: m.t was the ii: .-t he had :\--;ol-1 on the sub joe;. He told Mr

Sanders he wis not going to the meeting,

S’* he it 1-1 not. know who hn-1 called it or what business was to he tiistu.-sed. (Joining to the te.u (jumion for conaid eralion —that of the loo—he said lie had received a copy of the log with a polite note from the secretary, and aho a copy of the rules of the union, all of which he had carefully perusid, especially the log. He was perfectly satisfied it was a fair and reasonable log, aud bis view was based, not upon his opinion of the trade in the past or what he thought a calinetm.aker was capable of doing, but on the iact that it met the need of every iii r

-.mber of ihc funnlurc trade iu Dunedin, He noticed that the basis cf the log under

consideration was very similar to the basis o: a loa that was mrreed upon by both employers and c-mployb; in l s 9l. The only ditiereccc was that a number of the prices at present .submitted were considerably lower tkan tivne agreed to in ixfll. He had that in hit possession, and that was to 1

i miivi a. mu -h better expression of what tiie employers’ opinion on the prices for tl.e manufacture of furniture v is than anything else. That log was ngi<.ed to at a meeting al which the whole of the then furniture trade was represented. Unless some very good reason could ho assigned, or it was shown ihat changes n an alteration from the slate ct tilings then, he did not think there was any incossity for employers or the union ho therm g themselves about the log ve.y much. To convene a meeting ot employers at the present time to frame a log that would be acceptable even to the employers themselves would be useless and futile, for no satisfactory conclusion would ever be arrived at. From observe'ion lie was perfectly satisfied that to attempt to fix a leg satisfactory to employers was as useless as any attempt could possibly 1)-, Employers could not settle the question—they were only one party to the an-engement. It was for the employes to lix a log that was fair and reasonable, and in the log they had submitted that was the case with every article. The prices were vmh tr-.t a man could not earn other than a fair and reasonable wage. (Applause.) If he were ashed if anything could be improved, lie would make one or two suggestions. He had no hesitation in saying that to fix the minimum rate of wages pretty high was the most effectual step to get into the system of piecework. He was quite willing to pay whatever the union said was fair and reasonable', but lie thought, in the interests of the union and the employe and the trade generally, that the minimum rate of wages had been fixed too high at 9s a day. If the minimum rate had been fixed at 50s a week he did not think anyone could expect an ordinary workman to work for less than that. It was certainly much better for employes to work on day wages than on piece "work, and if the minimum rate of wages was fixed lower there was inducement for an employer to employ more hands at day wages than on a high minimum wage,

However, he was quite prepared to waive Ids opinion in favor of those who wished it otheru ise, Ai.otherpointhe would like to call attention to was the reduction of 10 per cent, to be taken from the log prices when machinery driven by power was used. He did not think there was a cabinetmaker present who would not see at a glance that to put down a certain percentage for machinery was a thing that could not be done. Some articles were two-thirds done by machinery, others not one-half. No matter how the log was framed it would be found that a great deal of what was done by machinery must be a matter of arrangement between employer and employe. By the Industrial and Conciliation Act, as he read it, no union need have the slightest fear about any matter that was left as an arrangement between employer and employe. Anything that they feel is not cornet or" that there" is a dispute about can be referred to the Court of Arbitration • and settled, and an employer would think wcdl before he faced such a tribunal. From what he knew of men, he had no fear whatever that they would try to extort from the employer anything but what was fair and reasonable.—(Applause.) He had employed as many men in the furniture trade as any man in Dunedin, and he had not found them try to get more than they deserved. (Hear, hear.) That perhaps arose from always paying the highest rate of wage, and that would continue so far as his firm were concerned so long as he. had anything to do with it.— (Applause.) As an employer he was quite satisfied with the log, only he suggested that the minimum rate fixed should'"be 8s instead of 9s, or dOs a week. He believed that was the price ruling in Melbourne, and apart from that he thought it was an equitable and fair sum. Ho had no fear of difficulty. His sympathies were with the union and with the log they had framed, lie said so not from the perusal he had given it at the present time, but from cornpaiison with the log carefully prepared by the employers some time ago. in conclusion, Mr Chisholm thanked the union for having invited the employers to attend the meeting—a courtesy they were not called upon to extend unless they chose. —(Applause.) The Chairman remarked that the log had been framed on a basis of !)s per day, which was considered a fair thing. With reference to a minimum wage, the danger was if they tixed it. 100 low there might bo a tendency to make that the maximum. Mr Lorie said that in its present form the leg was hopelessly incomplete. All the principles on which a log should bo compiled had been ignored, and in its present form any one was permitted to say that lie accepted the log and could then to depart from it by getting 99 per cent, of las work done by boy labor. No provision had been unde for that, and until provision was made every leg would be useless. It was all very weil to talk about paying nine, (cm, "r deven shillings a day, but if a man employ? twenty boys to whom he pays an tAvraac of 15s a week he cannot morally observe the log. The whole trouble that had to be contended with by the union and by cmnlovtrswho did not employ that class of labor was hoy labor. No provision concerning tite number of apprentices that should be employed to the number of men in a shop had been made. The non-regulating of the apprent ice question had been the cause of all ibe trouble in Dunedin. Ho was very much at:aid that the great majority cf young men in the trade today were not tradesmen, and laid not been taught their trade as they ought to have been. It was absolutely criminal to take boys into a trade and at the cud of three or four years turn them out unable to cam more then l.ls a week.— (Applause ) Unless this question was considered ail the logs in the world would be worthless to the employes. Ho thoroughly agreed that 9s for a ? capable (.••■.btnelin.iker was a fair rate of wage, and he had proved that in the past by paving l»s. He considered the competent tradesman cheaper at 10s than a raw youth at 2s Gd, Wh.u was the position of the lad who was turned out after his four years ? Did they mean to tell him that that lad, turned out, not knowing his trade, was to get 9- a day? —(A Vole!;: “Nod") Then, would they malic an improver of him ? He asserted that the improver business was a curse. A lad after Ids four years should be a journeyman ; and. speaking as an employer, he (Mr Lorie) would" be ashamed to turn out a lad after four years if he was not going to be a credit to him. He saw nothing in the log to prohibit weekly wages : and, if not, if improvers were iobe allowed to be employed at 15 >or Ads, | : he employers who engaged the latter would be able to compete very unfairly with the employers who accepted the log. It seemed to him that until they did away with all but absolutely bound apprentices and journeymen the log was not worth the paper it was written on. Then it. was the opinion of the gentlemen who went through the log with him that the union had made a mistake iu fixing the rate of wages too high. It i must' be patent that no money had been made in furniture in recent years, and a mistake was being made if the members of the union went from what they called starvation to the fat of the land. Ho did rot say that the prices were exorbitant, but if the prices that had been paid only enabled employers to make bath ends meet, he asked "if at the end of the year employers were not likely to find, with increased prices, that they were going to the wall ? He thought the employes should he satisfied with an increase at first to what might be called a living wage, which might be increased later on. He held the opinion that a great number in the trade were not finished woikers, and ha believed that was because the incentive was not held out to lads to improve their position. It, seemed to him unfair to allow the rough, ballocking worker as big a wage as the man who had brains and who devoted himself to learning his business and was an adept at it, and he suggested as a solution that t he log be drawn to give the rough worker a very much lower wage, than a skilled worker. He advocated that the union should depute

[i certain number of their members to meet a certain number of the employers to decide what log; should be accepted.

Mr H. M. Stewart (rice-president of the union) said that the union had not lost sight of apprentices being the primary cause in the present depression in the furniture trade. The Legislature had a Bill under consideration dealing with the question, and it would have been a waste of time to discuss it, because tho union could not bring power to bear to compel the limitation of the number of apprentices. The union looked upon it as presumption to dictate to the employers on the subject when the Legislature had taken the matter in hand. Whether employers were making money or not was a matter best known to employers themselves. He (Mr Stewart) did not support that businesses were run simply to give employment. The employers had to make their living out of it, and he presumed they had sutlicient business ability to turn their attention to some other business if the one which they were in was not paying. He was very well pleased with the tone of the meeting and the attitude taken up by the employers. There was no intention on the part of the union to discuss the question in a spirit of antagonism. They knew perfectly well they could take advantage of the Court of Arbitration, but they did not want to do anything of the kind. He did not say the union would not make concessions, and employers would not find the union hard to deal with. If it could bo shown that the union were extortionate in their demands, the union would meet them in a fair and reasonable spirit. Mr Chisholm expressed the opinion that instead of hoy labor being the cause of the wretched condition of the furniture trade he believed it was the result of it. — (A Voice ; “No.’) That was his opinion. If Mr Lorie chose to take on what he considered “ improvers ” at a few shillings a day, then in order to compete with that it was necessary to employ boys. It was far better to employ boys than to give men boys’ wages. He wanted an equitable arrangement to be made which would provide a fair living wage, and that this should be rigidly adhered to. It was no advantage to the employer to pay poor wages, for if fair wages were paid all round the employer’s profit would still be on the cost of production. He was prepared to allow anyone to examine the prices paid by his firm for work done, and also to see the terms upon which boys were employed. It was true they had boys in their factory. They had been driven to employ them, but they did so at fair wages.

Mr H. T. Sanders said it was notorious that one firm had caused the low prices by getting their work turned out by hoys.—(A. Voice ; “ Name.”) No, he would not mention the name, but the fact was undoubted. If once the log were agreed to, personally he did not care what the prices were so long as the majority of employers were bound by them. Hitherto his firm had kept to the proportion of boys to men that had been resolved upon. They had done it at a loss, but they had done it. They could not promise to do so iu the future unless ocher employers did the same. Mr Louie said ho had the log of his prices in his pocket, and if Mr Chisholm would produce his and show that he had paid more than he (Mr Lorie) had he was quite willing to forfeit another £lO. He had paid better wages than Mr Chisholm, and he would not have a boy in his employment. No man who had worked for him who had come from Mr Chisholm’s factory knew his trade. It was Mr Chisholm’s duty to find employment for his apprentices when they became journeymen. lie thought it would have boeu far better for Mr Chisholm’s own interests if he (Mr Chisholm) had said nothing about the matter. Mr Adamson suggested that some of the employers and employes should meet and discuss the matter amongst themselves and arrive at an amicable arrangement and report to a future meeting. He would move—- “ That five delegates from the union meet five employers and discuss the log.” Mr Louie seconded the motion, which was supported by Mr Stewart. Mr Morgan said they could have settled the matter that night if Mr Lorie had not stonewalled the question.—(Laughter.) Mr Brundell proposed as an amendment —“ That this log be taken in its entirety, and that notice be sent to all employers that it has been adopted.” This was seconded by Mr Chisholm, who said they might hold fifty meetings and they could come to no other decision than that the log was a fair and reasonable one. Mr Sanders supported the motion. Several employers had agreed that one or two items were rather high and that others had been cut rather fine. At a conference these could be considered and amended.

The Chairman said the union had given the employers plenty of opportunity, ami he did not see why they should continue to hold meetings to discuss the thing —(Applause.) Lot them have some finality. He told them honestly that he thought the union had been put off considerably.

Mr Sanders observed that there seemed to be a consensus of opinion in favor of the log, and, that being so, he, indicated that he considered the price of Gs 61 per foot for a telescope dining table was Is more than it should be.

The Chairman replied that if some of the pricesoivere thought to much it was very easy to give a man a day’s work ami see that he did a fair day’s work.

Mr Lurie said that employers had thousands of pounds involved, and they did not ask for a long delay. If the union look the stand of forcing this log upon them another employer and himself would refuse to accept it, and they could take them to the Arbitration Court. He absolutely declined to be jumped into saying “Yes” or “No” in a moment. For one simply to say “I accept this log” was not worth a snap of the fingers. If the union would not give a reasonable time lie would decline absolutely to be driven.

Mr Chisholm asked when the logs were sent to employers. The Chairman said somewhere about November 14, He desired to say, however, that Mr Lorie was not iu Dunedin at the time, but at the meeting to consider the Chinese trouble he (Mr Lorie) said he would pay what other employers paid. Mr Lorie ; I. said I would pay reasonable prices. Mr Chisholm thought a month or six wetks was sufficient for any employer lo look over the log. As au employer lie objected to trot to Mr Lurie’s convenience. If Mr Lorie had not given the log consideration other employers had. Mr Lorie : Von know I have been away.

Mr Chisholm said that was not the fault of the union. Besides, he did not think Mr Leri-.; was of such importance that the employers,' should wait his convenience. The Chairman said he could not see how the adoption of the log could allect employers, as all would lie on the same footing. Mr Louie : What about boy labor ?

Mr Gillies said he would like to propose another amendment—“ That the employers he called together to further consider the log, ami that they meet the union on Thursday night.” He had been at the afternoon meeting, and hod found great difficulty in arriving at what was meant, in the log. The employers should have an opportunity of going through the matter fully. Mr Sanders suggested that the employers present should retire and consider the"matter there and then and come to some decision.

Mr Chisuoi.m saiil ifc was evident that the present meeting could not bind tho employers, If Messrs Lone, Gillies, and Adamson, who had given the matter full consideration since two o’clock that afternoon, wanted a few more days, he did not suppose the union were going to the Court of Arbitration on tho following clay, and these employers could have an opportunity of submitting what they considered to be fair prices. But as an employer he objected to come to any more meetings.—(Applause.) Mr Girliks said he expected fair play, and claimed that the chairman had not acted impartially, but had taken a side. The Chairman said that as a workman he naturally felt interested in the workmen’s side of the question and had spoken upon it, because others had not done so; but he had endeavored throughout to be fair and reasonable. Mr Lorik said that there was no use talking nonsense and making all kinds of professions. He was willing and anxious to pay reasonable living rates and not to cut down wages, but he thought that until it could be shown that better might be done ifc Mould be well not to try to do too much. He thought the log should be formed on the basis of 8s per clay being earned, and not 9s or lOi.

A good deal of discussion took place on different items in the log. Mr Lorie was accused of paying very email prices for work, and produced his list of prices, and denied that his accusers had worked at all for him, and it appeared from their statements that the work had been done indirectly—that it had been sublet to them. The discussion wandered so much that the chairman, on being appealed to, admitted that if there was a question before the meeting he had forgotten it. On the motion of Mr Sanders, seconded by Mr Morgan, the union resolved to adjourn their meeting until Thursday night, and to meet them for the purpose of receiving from those employers who do not approve of the “log” their proposals for its amendment.

Mr Lokie suggested that some half-dozen members should be appointed to meet the employers, and said though he did not object to being “barracked” occasionally, to submit to the operation twice in one week was more than he was prepared to stand, and he objected to again meeting the union in a body for the.discussion of this question, with the prospect of hearing all manner of incorrect statements made against him. The proceedings terminated at half-past eleven o’clock, after a more or less heated discussion extending over three hours and a-half.