NORTH DUNEDIN CHURCH.

Evening Star, Issue 6476, 18 December 1883, Page 2

NORTH DUNEDIN CHURCH.

The Presbytery of Dunedin met In the North Dunedin Ohuroh last evening for the purpose of consulting with the Kirk Session, and hearing statements of members whose names had been struck off the communion roll. Present —Revs. H. E. Michle (Moderator), Dr Stuart, Professor Salmond, W. Will, A. 0. Gillies, M. Watt, John Ryley, 0. S. Boss, J. M. Sutherland, Fraser-Hurst, R, R, M. Sutherland, and R, Finlayson; elders—Dr Copland and Mr Dodgshun. At the consultation with the Kirk Session Rev. W. Will moved and Rev. Dr Stoart seconded that the reporters be not admitted.

Rev. A. 0. Gillies moved—"That tho reporters be welcomed." In common fairness to all parlies the proceedings should be published. If Dr Stuart was going to be very conciliatory, wise, and kind, he should like the world to know it, and if he was going to be a bad man he should like the world to know it also. For the sake of Di Stuart'B own popularity he thought the reporters should be welcomed. Dr Stuart came to do a very gmat deal of good in a very wise way, and he (Mr Gillies) wanted the world to know of his wisdom and goodness. Not only for the sake of Dr Stuart, but in the interests of the congregation this matter should be fully reported as it had been up to date. Mr Dodgshun Beoonded. After some discussion, it was decided not to open the meeting to the Press by a majority of two.

The congregational meeting was largely attended.

Mr Dodgshun said that before any complaints were received he had an address from the office-bearers to read to the congregation. Rev. W. Will considered the proposal out of order. Rev. A. 0. Gillies moved that the address be read, but the motion was loßt.

Rev. W. Will, instructed by the Moderator, stated tha* the object of the Presbyterial visit was to hoar complaints from persons who considered then:selves aggrieved. Rev, J. Rylkt took exception to the object of the meeting as stated. When he moved for the visitation he never contemplated that it was merely to give an opportunity to the malcontents of North Dunedin congregation.— (Loud applause.) Rev. K. Finlayson rose to a point of order. Rev. J. Ktlky said he was just going to withdraw the statement he had made. Perhaps ha should not have used the word malcontents. —(A Voice: "Yes, you shou'd.") He would say those who felt aggrieved. He intended that the whole congregation shoull be fairly represented, and all sides impartially heard,—(Loud applause.) Rev. W. .Will s&id that of course the Intention was to bear both sides, but it was necessary that those who had complaints should be heard first, —(Interruption.) Rev. A. 0. Gilliks said that before any utatements were made he wished to say a few words about the matter. He would be quite pleased to hear every person who had a complaint to make on one condition, and that whs that the fundamental law and order of business according to Presbyterian legislation be not broken.-(Applause.) That, to him was a primary matter, and upon that ground he took his stand. (Applause.) The session had whethor wisely or foolishly—the Synod had to determlflfi—but for reasons satisfactory to themselves, removed ger£ain names from the communion roll. Rev. W, Will t Mr Moderator, I must ask

Rev. A. 0 Gilliks : Oh, yes j I mast be put down again, I know,

A Voiok : Sit down. Rev. W. Will said it was a mistake to think that the congregation were going to over-rule the Presbytery. The Moderator called upon the congregation to keep order. Rev, W, Will contended that Mr Gillies was entering upon a question already decided. Rev. A. 0. Gilliks : Nothing of the kind.

Rev. W. Will : I understand thatRev. A, 0. Gillies : Well, you understand wrong. Dr Copland roae to speak, but was mei by hissing and a general uproar. Rev. W. Will : Keally, you must understand this; that the Presbytery will retire if this is persisted in. J. never heard of a congregation treating » Prosbji-Ty in this way. Surdy we havri a right to pjmk our minds. Surely tho North Dunodln congregation luw an much reupcot for fairness and honesty a« to allow ministers of the Church to statu what they consider is right. If they are to be "roughed" down in this way I will certainly move that tho Presbytery withdiaw. Dr Copland spoke to the point of order, contending that it was incompetent for Mr to bring forward a question that had already been decided. The Rov. J. HHtja? held there was no point of order,— (LoudJ Applause.) Dr Copland and Mr Will really presumed that fifr Gillfcs was bringing forward a matter before ihey'heard him. He hoped at ths same time, that the congregation would not "rough" sp much, They might be sure they would get full justice from the Presbytery.—(dries of " Oh!") Rev. A, 0. Gillies moved that those whose names had been struck off the roll should not he heard, on the ground that the aotion of the Kirk Session in striking them off had been

before tho Presbytery, and the appeal upon it was* to go before tho Synod. ThiH va:i rv.jg&tkod, it boir.g decided to J:cur ;;rvi.m; vvhu hvl .- (W.pLiint to u\-0:<). ~»-.v. A, '■■', '..iILLLiS;; Very >-\.", -'■•r Mod-,3- >■■;■■■• ; uuw :,•; in;< .;i;uo. Tlu. r--»M;tor i''-. f ; salan ?;]>..> for;a 1 wanied i*. to aiwurac, Aqanisi tie resolution just curried 1 dissent and patent for leave to appeal to the Synod on tho following grounds :—(1) The matters into which tho Presbytery resolvedtoinquireare in principle identical with Mr P. Nicholson's case, which, together with the Psion's judgment, is now by appeal in the hands of the Synod, and therefore it Is incompetent for the Presbytery to proceed any further in the matter.—(Applause.) (2) No person has petitioned the Presbytery in this inquiry, and therefore the Presbytery's interference with the question involved in the appeal is both unconstitutional and very suspicious.—(Loud applause.) (3) There is no use denying that the very unhappy spirit of mutually-increasing suspicion, distrust, aud antagonism is now, and has been for some time, springing up between this congregation (including all its cilicials) and the Presbytery—(Applause loud and continued) and therefore the Presbytery should not proceed any further at present, but should leave the depute to the Synod.''—(Applause.) Rev. W. Will argued that the cases were not similar and that each should be considered on its own merit 3. He moved—" That this appeal be not allowed, because it is frivolous and vexatious." Kev. J. Hylky seconded Mr Will's motion on the grounds of fairness and justice. He was there as far as ho knew his own heart to aot impartially and to do justice to both sides.— (Hear.) They were not there to hear one party more than the other, and he was delighted to see so many representing the congregation apparency so hearty and sympathetic with their minister,—(Great applause,) He thought that augured hopefully in reference to the future of North Dunodin congregation.—(Applause.) At the earae tlmo he felt that they were there as a Presbytery to receive any statements that any member of the congregation might think lit to volunteer. Mr U-lllies'n protest and appeal would really stultify the Presbytery. To sUy proceedings on the grounds statod would bo to ni ufcralise tho onus and objects for which they had met together. They were not going into the merits of the case which had been carried to the Synod. Kev. A. 0. Gilt.ie3 said in reply that the question was whether it was competent for the Prepbytery to go on to deal with the merits of the action of the session, seeing that they were then lodged In the hands of the Synod,— (Applause.) The Presbytery tried to make out that they came on his invitation. If they did not come till he invited them —-(Loud laughter,) Well, he would leave a blank for the rest.

Rev. W. Will asked Mr Gillies whether he did not express to the Presbytery his desire that the Presbyterlal visitation should take place In preference to a committee being appointed ? Rev. a. O. Gillies said he did not desire a visi'&tion, and only accepted it in preference to the committee. He had no objection to the visitation provided the Presbytery left alone the aotlon of the session which was on appeal. It was not a question of justice, but one of order and law.—-(Applause.) Rev. J. Rylet said that as the Presbytery had no knowledge of what was to come before them they were not there to deal with any case in particular. That met Mr Gillies's objection.

The Moderator ruled there was no motion before the meeting.

Rev. A. 0. Gillies said he would take no farther action, but allow the matter to proceed under protest. The Moderator then called upon anyone among the congregation who wished to make a statement to do so.

Mr Obamond then made a complaint of the indifference shown to him and his family by Mr Gilliea, When his wife was dying Mr Gillies did hot como to see her, although she requested his attendanca several times, and at the funeral he left after the service and did not go to the cemetery. He was treated very coldly by Mr Gillies afterwards, and when asked to subscribe to the sustentatioa fund, ha said "I would soouer give my money to the Salvation Army than to the Ohurch to put a black coat en that man's back." lie was five Sundays away from church when he got notice to show cause why his name should not be struck off the roll.

Rev. A. 0. Gillies rose to reply, when Mr Obamond said: I object to Mr Gillies making statements. He can turn the truth any way he chooses. —(Dissent.) The Modebatob called upon Mr Oramond to withdraw this remark, and the latter agreed to do so.

Rev. A. O. Gillies said he would reply to Mr Oramond, and his case must be taken N as a sample of what followed. He would not reply to any other complaint, as he would thereby stultify himself. Eev. Dr Stcabt rose to a point of order with some reluctance, because if he had been in the Presbjtery he would have voted against the Presbyterial visitation, He presumed they were there to receive what statements the congregation pleased to make, and Mr Gillies could make his explanations afterwards. He moved —" That the Presbytery now hear the members of the congregation." Kev. A. 0. Gillies : Then lam not allowed to reply to Mr Oramond ? Yes or no. The Moderator: No

Rev. A. 0. Gillies : I want the congregation to note that. Things have been said that are utterly untrne, and tho truth ia shut out. Rev. J. Ryley : I beg to move that Mr Gillies be allowed to reply to this statement. — (Applause) It is a most damaging statement, and if a reply is deferred until the conclusion of the meeting perhaps half the people may go way with a one-Bided impression. (Hear and applause.) Rev. W. Will had no objection to Mr Gillies being panted the indulgence <-f a reply at once. Leave was then given to Mr Gillies to reply.

Rev. A, 0. Gillies vas received with great applause. He said that It was to his great sorrow he heard of Mrs Oramond's illness, and he at once went to see her. He was, however, met at the door of the house by a lady, who told him the dootor had forbidden an interview with anyone. He called several times, bat thus was he shut out. Ho attended the hou»e the day of the funeral, and Mr Oramond then offered an apology on account of the way he had been shut out, saying it was not his fault. After the service, as he felt very 111, he suggested that Dr Stuart, who was present, might officiate at the grave. That was his explanation.—(Applause.) Now he wanted to say that this might be taken as a sample of other complaints, and be would not bother his head with another statement that night.

Mr Obamokd Interrupted to say that no matter what explanation Mr Gillies gave he knew he had sot treated him in a very manly way. A member of the congregation here said that there was evidently some misunderstanding, and if the Presbytery could not find something else to Inquire into they had very little to do.— (Laughter.) Mr G. Mitchell said he hoped that he would not be interrupted while he was making his complaint. He had been a member of the North Dunedin Church for six or seven years, and also an office-bearer,—(A Voioa: "And a supporter.") Rev. "W. Will: If these interruptions are persisted in I shall move that the parties who have a grievance meet the Presbytery In another room. This sort of £h!ng Is intolerable. Mr Mitchell continued that, after five Sundays' absence from church, he was called upon to show (muse why his name should not be struck off the communion roll. He attended the church, and was asked to have a private interview with Mr Gillies, which he refused.

Mr Daggeb said he was the office-bearer who spoke to the defaulters, and his request was that they should go before the sesßion one by one as their names appeared on the communion roll, and they got up and refused to go except ia a body. He did not ask Mr Mitchell to have a private interview with Mr Gillies. Mr Dodson } another office-bearer, said Mr Mitchell refused to go except they all went in a body. Mr HuJSTßß'sald ho heard Mr Dagger ask the people to interview the session—not Mr Gillies. Mr Mitchell wi«btd to make more further remarks, but he would not be heard. The Moderatob : I think we are ready to hear someone else. - (Laughter.) Dr Macdonald moved the adjournment of the Presbjtery. Mr R. Glendining said that all he wished were certificates for himself and relatives who had been struck off the roll.

Mr Watson suggested the adoption of the following:-" That the Kirk Session, in the interests of peace and of tho Tg-glfare of this congregation, and to avoid the. necessity of an appeal to the Synod, do, without prejudice on their part to the case now before the bynod or to any other similar appeal whioh may be made, agree to the following proposition: 1, That in so far as those members who have joined the North-east Valley congregation are concerned, except in the case of Mr Nfooluon, they are prepared to grant to them certificates of membership or to forward them to the Moderator of the North-east Valley congregation. 2 that in so far as persons other tban the above, and whose names have been removed from the roll, aro concerned, the pesslon are prepared to gront to them certificates also, or if they make application to the session for the rehearing'of their cases, agree to their request, and judge each claim for reinstatement on the communion roll impartially on its own merits--3 That tho same offer be now made to Mr Nicolßou as is made to the first-mentioned persons. 4- In the event of his acceding to the proposal the appeal of the Synod in his case to be fallen from -, Provided (1) tbfrt tho Presbytery on their part agree to Btay all further proceedings in connection with the matter of the communion roll; (2) in tho event of Mr Nioolaon refusing now to aocado to the above proposal in full satisfaction, agree conjointly with the representatives of the session, and without any discus don on the marits of the ca»e, to recommend the Synod to dispose of the matter in accordance with the proposal now made." Mr A. R. Livingstone seconded. spho motion was unanimously agreed to by the congregation. Bev Mr GttftlES said |hat the pronosaj befng agreed to he, as Moderator of the sessian and pastor of the congregation, claimed to speak a i ew words. Before he stated his point he might just say that he was a'most afraid, notwlthitanding that his hair was getting grey, that

the failure of these people to lay charges at his door would bo apt to make him self-conceited. Tnoy Lisp, coit.o to annihilate him, and tho !n:;u.'jt;U!i ?ii. b-aov •.v(-.;l t:. v y knew the rest. !.iir*liy (:>im i'viiiua Jia-.i h-.'M cuch tiiCi'. he aavt v r b..-if<i.'. , e thought thai; bo wa-i suoh a good mar., JU&'v. Dr. Wfcuari; rose to interrupt. Kov. A. 0. Gillies : Well, now I have said it, dootor. Rev. Dr. Stuart: Well, Mr Gillies is altogether prejudging tho case. TJhe Presbytery have not yet expressed judgment In the matter. Rev. A. 0. Gillies : In what Bense, Mr Moderator. Rev. W. Will : In the sense stated. Rev. A. 0 Gilubs: I am not speaking of the Preßbytery at all. —(LViughtsr.) I am speaking of greater and better men. Well, I want to say this : That so far as I understand the mind of the session we shall be perf eotly agreeable to the proposal, because it is what we have been wanting all along. We asked these people to come and explain what they want and what they mean; whether they are going to stay with us or not. We gave certificates to every person who was respectful, and asked for them in proper season arid have always been ready to give the certificates Rev. J. Rtlky : I am sure we are all pleased with the very kindly and wise proposal made by Mr Watson, and with the statement made by your minister and the moderator of the session, and I am sure—

Kev. W. Will rose to a point of order. Rev. Dr Stuart: This is prejudging altogether.—(Laughter.) Rev. J. Rylky : I never expeoted Dr Stuart and Mr Will would endorse all that Mr Gillies said—(Laughter and applause.) I think when that day comes wo may expect the millennium,— (Applause.) I wis simply speaking for myself, althought on the spur of the moment I included others. I hope the Presbytery will see their way to agree to this suggestion, and unite to bury the battle-axe, so that peace and harmony may prevail in North Dunedin,—(Applause.) The Presbytery resolved, on the motion of Rev, R. FiNLAYSON- ,, That the Piesbytery leave the matter in the hands of the session, in the hope that the session will be able to adjust ail the difficulties that have arisen; to report to the next meeting of the Presbytery."