PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Evening Star, Volume VII, Issue 2062, 14 December 1869, Page 1 (Supplement)

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Friday, Decf.mhkh 10, 1869. RAILWAY EXPLANATIONS. Mr SHAND put the following question, •f which he had given notice ; “ If the Government will inform the House SB early as possible what instructions were given to the Railway Engineer onlaying off the Olutha line of railway through the Taieri—whether the engineer was instructed to find a line that would be most suitable to command the traffic of the Taieri, or merely the nearest point, at whatever cost, to its proposed finishing point, the Olutha ? ” He considered that it was necessary the question should be answered, as there was a very general feeling that there had been great injustice done to the Taieri in laying out the line. Those who looked at the statistics of the Province would be satisfied that that district was the most important through which it had to pass, while a great portion of it to the north and west would be debarred from deriving benefit from it. No sooner would it be made, if according to the present plan, than another line would be necesThe SPEAKER intimated that the hon. member must confine his remarks strictly to the question he had to put. Mr SHAND must bow to the ruling of the Speaker, but should take the opportunity of bringing the matter up in another f °The SECRETARY FOR LAND AND WORKS said : There were no instructions given to the engineer, as far as he could feam. The engineer was merely instructed to lay out a line of ra.ilway to the Clutha, bat there were no special instructions as to the course he should take. Mr TURNBULL enquired of the Provincial Secretary and Treasurer—- “ Whether the papers laid on the table relative to the Southern Trunk Railway embrace all the correspondence connected with that undertaking—and, if not, whether the Government will produce the remainder . He put that question because he was under the impression that there were several letters, and possibly some telegrams, that did not appear in the correspondence as printed, and it was highly desirable that the whole case should be laid before the Council as to the Question that had arisen between his Honor and liis Executive. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said that the correspondence placed upon the table was prepared by the Superintendent, but he found there were more letters to be laid on the table that afternoon, or at the latest at the next sitting of the Council. Mr M‘DERM ID asked the Government: dividual or a Company for the construction of the Port Chalmers railway ; if with an individual on what authority they have acted The reason for asking this question was that he understood there were other contractors open to negociate -with the Government, hut ■upposing that the Executive under the Ordinance ■were only authorised to deal with, a Company, they consequently did not tender. Although the Government laid down the' principle of competition, they did not act upon it in that .case, and consequently could not be said to be accepting the best lender The 'SECRETARY FOR LAND AND WORKS said the Government had not agreed ether with an individual or a Company. They were now negotiating and if the parties were not prepared to fulfil the terms of the negotiation it would fall through. If they adhered to the terms proposed to the Government he presumed the agreement would be completed subject to the approval of the Council. With regard to the second part of the question, “If an individual on what authority they have acted ?” The honorable member was referring to the letter of the resolutions passed by the Council during last cession, namely : “ That to place the Government in a position to provide for such work being carried out, power should be given to the Superintendent, with the advice of his Executive to enter into an agreement with any company formed for the purpose. ” The Government believed that what the Council desired was the spirit of the resolution should be carried out as stated iu the first resolution, “ That in the opinion of this Council the construction of [a railway between Dunedin and Port Chalmers should he proceeded with without delay. The Government had endeavored to negociate with a Company; the negociations fell through, and receiving an offer on more favorable terms the Government did not feel justified in refusing it, though it did not emanate from a Company. The Government held that |the Company refused the undertaking, and having been offered more favorable terms, the Government did not think proper to refuse to go on with the work, and negociations were now pending. muen HUNDREDS REGULATION

ACT, Mr TURNBULL asked_the Secretary for Land and Works — . , “Whether the motion of which he has given notice relative to the ‘ Otago Hundreds Regulation Act’ contains the views of the whole of the Executive on the subject, and indicates the Government policy on the Land Question, or merely represents his individual opinions?” The answer had, in a manner, been given to that question. In reply to Mr Driver, he understood that all questions emanating from the Government benches were to be considered Government questions, and he thought there should he ft clear understandino' on that point in the debate on the Hundreds Regulation Act. Rumor had it that gome members of the Government were opposed to others, and he could not understand how one part of the Government should travel one wav and one another. The SECRETARY FOR LAND AND WORKS said—lf he replied to the first question as put on the paper, he could not deal with the second question, of which he had received no notice. He would ask honorable members to look at the papers laid on the table of that House. He thought it only reasonable that members should inform themselves on the various sub jects. The Council had been at great expense in printing reports. He thought, therefore, the Government might complain that members did not get that information for themselves that they might so easily obtain. He thought it would be seen that all the Executive were not agreed on the subject. „„ , ... « Mr. TURNBULL.—Then how is it. a Government question ? Mr REID denied having said that all questions coming from those benches were Government questions. was : “All motions from

Government motions ; but not all questions Government questions.” They had not reached that stop yet. With regard to the second part of the question, “ whether the motion indicates the Government policy on the Land Question ; or merely represents Ins individual opinions, ” —unless it was intended to be offensive, the question would have been complete without it. He might say it indicated their views to a certain extent on the Land Question ; but if it meant “Land Policy,” far from it. Referring to the Act of 1866, they believed it would be quite sufficient for the requirements of the Province. Engagements entered into with individuals should be faithfully and honorably maintained ; and the Act of 1866 contained the Land Policy of the Government. REPORT ON RAILWAYS,

Mr MTNDOE moved.—That the Report of Mr Millar on the Port Chalmers Railway be referred to the Printing Committee, with the recommendation that it be printed.” It was a very conclusive and exhaustive report. He knew it was impossible for every member of the House to go over it and study it, and possibly it was not such intelligible writing, as it might have been ; but a document so valuable should be printed, and he had much pleasure in moving that that be done. Mr ASHCROFT seconded the motion. Although he was unwilling to put the Province to any expense, he thought the subject so important that the best information on the subject should be circulated. The SPEAKER called the attention of the House to the fact that the motion was irregular, for it instructed the Printing Committee to read the report, and consider whether or not it should be printed. Mr J. L. GILLIES thought the mover, if he wished to secure that the report should be printed, should simply move that it be printed without any allusion to the Printing Committee. He objected to the form in which the motion was put. Mr M‘IN DOE was quite willing to alter the form of the motion, if the Council would permit it. Leave was given to alter the form of the motion; and Mr MTNDOE moved that the report of Mr Millar on the Port Chalmors Railway be printed. Mr DRIVER did not wish to oppose the motion, although there would be a good deal of expenso incurred in printing the report. He did not believe it was sufficient for it to be on the table. It was a very valuable report indeed, hut he did not believe it would bo much read outside if printed. He would be disposed to add to the motion, and read. The SECRETARY FOR LAND AND WORKS said he had read a good deal of the report, and he considered it a most able one ; and the least the Council could do, in courtesy, was to print it. It would not only be read by members of the Council, but by many others. No doubt the details would be judged by more competent persons than he was ; but he was sure that many persons industriously circulated reports that would bear no comparison with that under consideration. On those grounds he was glad to second the motion. Mr TAYLER opposed the printing of the report. Mr Millar prepared it without orders, and especially without orders from the Government; and although the report might perhaps be servicable, he did not see any reason why every gentleman who might be able to get up a report should go to the Government and get it, by a sort of side wind, laid on the table, and then, through his friends, get it printed. He could not conscientiously advocate it. It was a long report, and would cost a great deal; and if it were printed they might as well publish it in a pamphlet. Mr Millar had got it up in his private capacity, and perhaps hoped he might be the engineer to carry out the work if the Government carried it out. On public grounds, he did not see why the Council should waste one ten pounds over it. Mr MTNDOE certainly could agree with the honorable member for Port Chalmers with regard to printing valueless documents, but the report of Mr Millar was worth being preserved among the records of the House, and of being circulated throughout the provinces. Mr Millar had gratuitously given his labor, and the question had occupied the attention of the House and of the Province at large. The eminence he had attained as an engineer justified every consideration being given to it. Whether his plans were adopted or not he could not say, but the report would be valuable as a work of reference, and it was well worth being placed in the hands of the public. He trusted honorable members would consent to its being printed. The motion was put and carried. REPLY TO THE ADDRESS.

Mr SHAND said according to precedent, it had fallen to him as the youngest member of the House, to move the reply to His Honor’s address. He regretted it had not fallen into other hands. He moved that the following reply be presented:— “ We regret that there are differences of opinion between your Honor and your responsible advisers upon the question of Hundreds, and in regard to the construction of the Southern Trunk Railway. «<We are pleased to hear that there is a prospect of the Port Chalmers Eailway being commenced within two, and completed within eighteen, months. “ We learn with pleasure that the report of the Commissioners is favorable to the reunion of the Provinces of Otago and Southland, and will be prepared to give it outmost earnest consideration. “We are glad that an Act has been passed which enables the Province to dispose of land on the West Coast on terms which are likely to attract settlement of a suitable kind. “ The question of the appointment of an Agent to proceed to Europe, to promote the emigration to this Province of suitable labor and capital will receive our best attention. “We hail with pleasure the discovery of numerous gold-bearing quartz reefs in the Province, and agree with your Honor that the importance of this discovery upon the future of our goldfields cannot be overestimated. , . “ We shall gladly consider any scheme for procuring a cheap supply of water for our “Recognising the importance of the various measures which will be introduced, we are prepared to give them our early attentloMr ASHCROFT had again to point out, notwithstanding the sharp rebuke of t e Secretary for Land and Works, that theie was not a word in the Reply tending to show that the Government intended to open up communication with the West Coast. Large blocks of land had been laid out, but there was no indication that the Government in-

tended to open up the communication. Vi ith regard to Martin's Bay, it might be done, and although there was but a small amount of money at the disposal of the Province, he could not see that the question of the expenditure of a few hundreds should prevent opening up lands which, if settled, would increase the revenue by many thousands, and do much towards placing a population on laud that was now a waste and desert country. He had good reason to believe a large tract of the land was highly auriferous, and there were parties who in their own enterprise were trying to open up a bridle track to Martin’s Bay. The Government should have given some intimation whether they intended to give assistance to that private enterprise, and doing something towards opening up the communication. He did not think he deserved the sharp reply he received a short time previously, and hoped the Government would give some more satisfactory answer than they had done. Mr THOMSON considered concocting a Reply a very simple affair, that needed not to have been delayed. What fell from the honorable member for the Taieri was merely following suit, and the Reply was couched in the usual formal phraseology. Of course, every member regretted, fts stated in the Reply to the Address, that there should have been any misunderstanding between his Honor and his Executive ; but as opportunity would be afforded of each member still expressing his sentiments on the points of difference, he need not further comment upon that. The next subject was that of the Port Chalmers Railway. Two or three years ago, the question was whether communication between the Port and the City should be opened up by a railway, or whether the water communication should be improved. He certainly thought the better course was to have made a railway at once. Perhaps in that opinion he was wrong, h-ince that time he believed, as much money had been spent on the river as would have made a railway twice over, and now a railway was to be made as well. It was to be regretted that so much money had been wasted. With regard to the question of the re-union between Otago and Southland, he was not prepared to enter. He observed that various important documents would be placed on the table to enable the House to arrive at a right decision ; but he must say his first impressions were against that re-union. (Hear, hear, from Mr Driver ) He thought it so important a question, that that Council should not entertain it at all. When the members ot ahat House were elected the question had not even been mooted. There had been no opportunity of studying it : it was not before the public at the time of their being returned. He therefore thought it would be wrong for that Council to arrive at a definite decision on the matt< r, and the people of the Province should have an opportunity of expre sing their sentiments on the question, so that the members returned to the House might represent the mind of the people on it. It must not be forgotten that the recent election in Southland hinged on that very question, so he thought it only right that the Province should also have an opportunity of expressing their opinions upon it. The settlement at Martin’s Bay w T as already decided upon, so there was no necessity for further discussing it, although ho had doubts of the desirability of forming a settlement in that district. It was somewhat curious that a report laid on the table two ago was entirely contrary to the published ideas on the subject. That report praised up the country, and represented it a wonderful place indeed. But, somehow or other, the general idea was that the West Coast was not suited for settlement; that climate was moist, and the country thickly wooded. For his own part he thought it would be better to concentrate our energies, rather than to squander them —to induce thousands to come to the Province and settle amongst ourselves. With mpect to immigration—another subject introduced by the Government the more that are here the better for us and them if a liberal system of settlement were adopted. But if the Hundreds Act remained as it was, the fewer that came the better. Although he should be inclined to support a proposition that the Government should help in the development of the goldfields, he did not think it would be judicious for it to undertake very large works in the shape of reservoirs. Any assistance given should be in the way of supplementing the efforts of the miners themselves. As there was a pretty large bill of fare provided, he thought the question of union between Otago and Southland, and one or two others, might have been omitted. However, if there were not too much discussion, the House might get through the business in three weeks at the very most. Mr DRIVER, in reference to the milk and water reply, thought there was more water than milk in it. But that must be expected from the various opinions that existed amongst the members of the Government. In reality he had been expecting a motion tabled expressing want of confidence in the Government as at present constituted. The Government had not forgotton to pledge the Council to two motions : to the re-union of Southland with Otago, and the action taken by the Government in the construction of the Port Chalmers Railway. With regard to the first clause in the proposed reply, expressing regret that there have been differences between his Honor and his responsible advisers, no doubt that would be talked over hereafter. On the second clause he intended to move an amendment. In entering into the negotiations, the Government had kept the Council in the dark as to what they had done. But when the matter had been settled in that House, and members had retired into their tents, the shadows that peeped forth respecting their arrangements led him to expect to hear the Government had done nothing. He quite agreed with the remarks made by the member for the Clutha respecting the re-union of Southland and Otago and he intended to move an amendment. He quite agreed that the question should first go before the country, for it was one of the most important that could come before the Council. He did not think that there was a majority of one hundred votes in the Province of Southland in favor of reunion. Scarcely an election was carried by more than two or three votes. In fact he doubted whether there was a fair majority in favor of re-union. He did not declare himself opposed to it, but he thought that as there were a great many arguments pro and con, the wiser and safer course would be to bring the question before the Province. He would move that the words “We learn with pleasure that” &c., be struck out, and the sentence would then read, “To the report of the Commissioners favorable to the reunion of Otago and Southland, we will be prepared to give our most earnest consideration.” He thought it would meet the

views of the Council and the House not to pledge themselves to any course. The other questions introduced into the address were very vague and not worth noticing. He moved the following amendment“We hope the negotiations pending for the construction of the Port Chalmers Railway will lead to the completion of this work on terms that will be beneficial to the Province, and do justice to the public, as to the mode adopted by the Government in arranging for its construction.”

Mr FRANCE thought before taking a step of the kind proposed by Mr Driver it should be remembered that the Council last session gave the Government permission to go on with the Port Chalmers Railroad, and to leave it in their hands, and with regard to clause 3, the Government had not done more than they were instructed to do. He thought the House would bear him out that the Executive had only followed out the views of the Council as expressed last session. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said before allowing the matter to go to a vote he thought he ought to say a few words about the Port Chalmers Railway, he was in hopes the papers he wished to lay on the table would have been received, but they had not up to that time been sent by the printer. He would therefore try to explain the position of the matter. Honorable members would have heard from report that a company was formed to try to carry out that work, and that they entered into negotiations with the Government. They inquired on what terms they might enter into arrangements to complete the railway. After consultation with the Government he wrote a letter stating that the Government would guarantee 8 per Cent, on L 70,000, that being distinctly understood to be the maximum sum they should go to. In that letter it was stated that on the contract being signed and proper security being given for carrying out the contract, the jetty dues would be set aside as security for the payment of the interest. They would set them aside at once, ■o that as the money would only be required by instalments, by the time the railway was completed the dues would have sufficiently accumulated to pay the interest. That was to say all the capital of the company would not be called up during the first year, so that there would be a certain sum lying to the credit of the company after the first year. The company then employed an engineer to report, and on the 2Sth September —mark it —he presented them a report to the effect that LBO,OOO would be required to construct it. He need not go into that report, but after a time, namely, the 19ch October, the company met and passed a resolution ing to go on with the matter, and to issue a prospectus forthwith. They then handed terms of agreement to the Government, and he should have the pleasure of showing it to honorable members, who he thought would bear the Government out in not accepting it. The Executive then proposed an agreement themselves, which they submitted to the company. That also would be laid before the Council. What followed sending that agreement to the company ? The SPEAKER thought the honorable member out of order. The question was the reply to the address, not the Railway Company. It had nothing to do with the Railway Company. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER held that he was in order in explaining the terms of the proposed agreement. He understood he was entitled- . The SPEAKER.—He is only entitled to make passing reference to it; but as the Railway question is to be brought before the House, he is not entitled to go into particulms« Mr * DRIVER speaking to the point of order, said the Treasurer was speaking of documents that the House was not in possession of, „ . The SECRETARY FOR LAND AND WORKS said as to the point of order the sooner they got the information the sooner they would be enlightened. He thought there was no harm in honorable members being a little enlightened, as there were so many rumours about. He thought every opportunity should be afforded the Government to place the matter in its true light and when it was so put he had every confidence in the verdict of the House. Mr DRIVER said with regard to the dictatorial style of the Secretary for Land and Works, he thought verbal explanations were not needed when there ‘were documents that the House might see. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said he wished them to hear what followed. The Provisional Committee passed a resolution directly condemning their proposal of the 19th of October. What they said was this—- “ That the proposed agreement with the Government having been read and considered, this meeting finding that as the amount fixed by the Government on which the guarantee is to be paid is much under what it has been ascertained the railway can be built for : that as the clause giving the Company the additional security of a block of land as agreed to by the Provincial Council has been struck out: and that as the Government has inserted terms and conditions in connection with the construction and working of the proposed railway which the Committee considers both unreasonable and absurd—

“Resolves that unless the Government is prepared to accede generally to similar terms as were embodied in the original draft agreement, the proposed Company abandon the scheme altogether, and request the chairman to intimate this resolution to his Honor the Superintendent forthwith.” Now on receiving such a resolution as that what could the Government do ? But supposing another party wrote and said he would take the affair on those terms ; what position was the Government in then ? The company said the conditions were unreasonable and absurd, but a party said he was willing to take the contract on those terms and give any reasonable amount of security. Thus the matter stood. They told them the thing thing was unreasonable and absurd, yet another party came and offered propositions. Mr DRIVER.—We knew all that before ; we want to know the result. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER. - With regard to the reunion of Southland and Otago, who would say they had net pleasure in thinking that negociations for that purpose could be entered into with a prospect of success ? It was a great pleasure to_ think that so many considered the proposition for reunion should be supported, and that Southland was in a position to consider it. He need not further trouble the Council, his object having been merely to make the matter of the railway clear, so that, in accordance with the views of the hon. member for Waikari, the Council might know how to vote. Mr MOSELY was no railway contractor,

nor did he expect to get anything out of it. For his part, he thought the Council would stultify itself if it withdrew the confidence it reposed in the Government last session. It would be wasting time to do The country members did not want to be in Dunedin longer than they could help; and he did not think the Council justified in wasting the time and money of the country. He hoped, therefore, there would be as little discussion as possible. Mr TURNBULL had not intended to have taken any notice of the harmless document the reply to the address—had not the Provincial Treasurer given his version of the history of the endeavor, on the part of many gentlemen, to form the Port Chalmers Railway. He therefore wished to give the other side of the story, for he thought it right to do so. He did not quite agree with the member for Waikari, who brought forward the amendment; for if the contract entered into by the Government was a bona fide one, and satisfactory sureties for its performance were given, they had made a good bargain, and when it was completed the country would have reason to be satisfied with the work. At the same time he did not think there was the least chance of its being carried out. He should like the Government to state whether they had any documents signed—if they had any securities ? what were the terms, and what the securities for carrying out the work ? If they had got them, he had no fault to find; but he did not believe they had got them, nor did he believe they would get them ; and he believed a month hence, every member present would know the fact. A number of gentlemen formed themselves into a provisional committee to wait on the Government to see what terms they offered for constructing the Port Chalmers Railway, and whether they would be in a position to carry out the resolutions of last session. They were led to believe that the Superintendent and Executive would be willing to do that. Thereupon, after several meetings, the Committee got a letter from the Provincial Treasurer, stipulating that the amount on which interest would be guaranteed should be L 70,000, and offering as security the jetty dues. That was not only not in accordance with the resolutions, but it was opposed to them. In a weak moment the Committee made a mistake and passed a resolution to accept the terms. But that time, or immediately afterwards, it was ascertained that the amount was too low, and that the work could not possibly be done for the money. An agreement was prepared by Mr Howorth on behalf of the members of the proposed Company, fixing the amount at LIOO,OOO, and inserting an undertaking on the part of the Government to give a section of land as security, if wanted, in addition to the jetty dues. That proposal was sent to the Government, and was returned with the intimation, he believed, that they could not possibly undertake to do it at all. (Oh no !) It was, If they entered into proper covenants to carry out the work, the Government saw no reason not to accede to what was asked. That was simply saying, “ If you undertake to do the work, we undertake to guarantee interest on LIOO,OOO, on Government security. ” There w r as a letter signed by the Provincial Treasurer, to that effect. (Laughter.) There was a letter in the hands of Mr Howorth, signed by the Provincial Treasurer. A letter would be laid on the table, signed by the Provincial Treasurer, containing the proposals of the Government, and he would leave the Council to say whether the Company could entertain them. One of them was that each member of the Provisional Committee should be personally liable to carry out the railway. _ That was contrary to the principle of a Limited Liability Company. Then they went into certain minutiae and the Company felt that the Government was simply playing with the resolutions, and that the proposition they (the Company) had made was a fair one. He had nothing more to say on the subject than to express the hope that the agreement would be carried out. The Reply to the Address was most harmless —the ne plus ultra of addresses, in omitting to say anything. The only thing the House was committed to in voting it was the saying, “We learn with pleasure.” It would have been better to have said, “We observe.” The House could not say they learnt “with pleasure.” Mr M'DERMID said the wisest course was to adjourn until the promised documents were before the House. The carrying of the Reply to the Address seemed to turn on the Port Chalmers Railway question. He did not think the hon. member for the City had altogether put the question fairly, _ inasmuch as he stated that a guarantee for interest on LIOO,OOO was intended to be asked, and we in a moment of weakness agreed to accept it on L 70,000. That was time : but by and by the Government themselves employed an engineer--and he believed his report was a fair one—who said that LBO.OOO would be a fair amount to construct the railway, not including the cost of land. All knew that was something. It was consequently agreed to raise the capital of the company to 1100,000, and of course the guarantee would only be on the amount expended. Mr Howorth distinctly referred to the resolution of the Council, and asked to have a guarantee in terms of it. It did not limit the amount, which might have been L 90,000, or LIOO,OOO, or L 150,000, They did not specify, he admitted, LIOO.OOO or any number of thousands, and that was the only point on which the hon. member for the city had not put the matter fairly. It was just put in terras of the resolution of the Council, which said, “ sufficient capital for the construction of the railway.” They also accepted the terms, as the Government gave a favorable reply. They stated, through the Superintendent, they were perfectly willing to agree to the proposal of the company. He should like to see that letter, for it was in the hands of the Provincial Treasurer. (The letter was accordingly handed to the hon. member, which he read as follows) : “Provincial Government Buildings, “ 2nd November, 1867. “ Sir—ln reply to your letter of yesterday’s date, addressed to his' Honor the Superintendent, I am directed to inform you that his Honor is advised that the agreement forwarded by you for his perusal contains merely the conditions which the promoters of the Dunedin and Port Chalmers Railway Company require his Honor to enter into on the part of the Government, but in no way indicates what the Company will be prepared to do, supposing the Government accede to those terms. “ Before his Honor can consent to bind the Province by any agreement relating to the construction of the proposed railway, he will require to be satisfied that the Company will carry on the proposed works to completion, according to plans and specifications approved of by an engineer appointed on behalf of the

Government for that purpose ; and I am therefore instructed to request that you will forward to his Honor at your earliest convenience a draft of the covenants which the promoters of the railway will be prepared to enter into on their part, in order that the same may be considered by the Government. “I am to add that, supposing the covenants on the part of the Company to be satisfactory, his Honor will be prepared to enter into the proposed agreement on his part, sub* ject to certain necessary modifications with respect to which it is not apprehended that any serious difficulty will arise. “ I have, &c., “ (Signed) Alex. Willis. “ Clerk to the Executive Council

" H. Howorth, Esq., Solicitor, Dunedin.” It seemed to him that the Company was just in as favorable a position at that time, for anything he knew, as the present contracting firms were at present. The details were not entered into, nor did the Government appear very warm in the matter. Therefore no reliance could be placed that the contracting firm could come to an arrangement any more than the company. However he intended, if the amendment of the hon. member for Waikari was thrown out, to propose an amendment on the second clause. He was delighted that Southland was to be reunited. The amendment he would propose would be “That the particulars of the agreement be submitted to this Council before its rising.” Mr DRIVER was willing to withdraw his amendment in favor of the amendment of the hon. member for North Harbor. The question was put to the House, and leave to substitute Mr M'Dermid’s amendment for M r Driver’s was refused. The SECRETARY FOR LAND AND WORKS said if it was wished that the Government should be enlightened, the wiser thing would be for them to. give a distinct explanation. He imagined, they were enlightening hon. members opposite on the point —in fact, they were explaining the case clearly, and hon. members opposite were becoming convinced that no injustice had been done to the Provisional Committee.

Mr M‘DERMID simply said he made no charge, but had no confidence in their coming to an arrangement. Mr TURNBULL was pleased to hear that an arrangement was likely to be entered into. He went into the preceding arrangement to get the matter through. He did not intend to invest one farthing in the undertaking if he could possibly help it. Captain M'KENZIE thought the discussion was degenerating into a personal debate. The Government were defending themselves in an extraordinary manner. The SECRETARY FOR LAND AND WORKS was glad to find that hon. members did not think thay were not dealt with unfairly by the Government. Still the hon. member for Green Island implied that there was some unfair dealing, and, as a natural consequence, they looked to the Government for some redress. However, if the hon. member withdrew the charge, he was satisfied on that point. The great charge brought against the Government was, that there was no satisfactory evidence that the pending negotiations would result in the construction of the line. Precisely —nor could there be absolute dependence that any negotiations pending would lead to its construction ; but they had a letter from a person willing to contract, written very clearly and in a very business manner, stating that the party offering intends to do it. That, he must say, the Executive did not receive from the Provisional Committee. He thought he might state generally that it was much more favorable than that which they expected to obtain in the deed proposed by the Provisional Committee. In the one it was said the terms were ridiculous and absurd, because the Government stipulated for four trains to be run per day, but under the terms of the pending arrangement there were to be twelve trains a day. There was one point of considerable importance. During the whole time of those negotiations he had heard rumors going round that the Government were not in earnest in the He asked the Coundl to look what the action of the Government had been. When the General Assembly was in session, just after his Honor left the Province, the Government gave instructions to have a Bill prepared to legalise what had been done by that Council, because it would be understood by hon. members they did not feel quite secure as to the amount of bonus being voted year by year. The Government proposed a Bill, a copy of which he had in his hand, to be forwarded to Wellington, in order to put the matter in a legal train, so that they might get the railway constructed in an open manner, so that they could submit it to competition. And what was the charge brought against the Executive by those hon. members who found fault with them ? The charge emanating from the hon. member for Waikari was that they should dare to open up the work to public competition. Mr DRIVER rose to order. He never called the motive in question; but he intended to do so, and to show the injustice done to private individuals. The SECRETARY FOR LAND AND WORKS should be sorry to misinterpret what had been said. What he wanted to shew was that, in the whole of the negociations they were looking to the public good; but he thought those interruptions did not tend to elucidate the subject under discussion, and if avoided it would be a great convenience. He held in his hand the BUI submitted to the Assembly. Fault was now found with the Government failing to get the railway constructed on terms they considered reasonable within twelve months; they should have power to dispose of land and construct it themselves. When the papers were laid before the Council, it would be seen from the whole action of the Government that they were most earnest in endeavoring to get the raUway contructed. As to terms, he thought it was acknowledged they were favorable for the Province. The hon. member, Mr Turnbull, said that the Provisional Committee agreed to accept a guarantee on L 70,000 ; the hon. member for North Harbor said the engineer reported it would cost LBO,OOO. That report was received on the 28th September. The date of their acceptance of the terms of the Government was the 19th October. The report of the engineer might be grounds for hesitation ; but having that report in possession they might have said, “We have mode an offer which we cannot abide by.” Had they met the Government in that spirit (For continuation see Star.)