EVIDENCE OF EMPLOYERS

Evening Post, Volume CXXII, Issue 97, 21 October 1936, Page 6

EVIDENCE OF EMPLOYERS

APPLICATION OF BASIC WAGE

EFFECT ON SECONDARY SCHOOL BOYS

■rv Evidence-on behalf .of the employers occupied the attention of: /the Court of Arbitration yesterday afternoon and again today at the continuation of the inquiry into the basic rates of wages to be fixed tor adult male and female workers governed by awards or industrial agreements. - .:: After Mr. T. 0. Bishop, seer clary of the New Zealand Employers' Federation, had addressed the Court, evidence was given 'by Mr. W. A. Armour,.■headmaster of Wellington College and president of the New Zealand Secondary Schools' Association. Mr. •Armour was subjected to a long cross-examination by Mr. J. Roberts on behalf of the workers, and he was further cross-examined today by Mr. J- Robinson, who also represents the workers. This crossexamination was followed by evidence by Professor A. H. Tocker, professor of economics at Canterbury University College. A summary of Mr. Bishop's address appeared in yesterday's "Post."

Opposition to the application of the basic wage at the age of 21 was voiced by Mr. W. A. Armour. ,■ He. submitted a statement on behalf of Wellington secondary, schools,, with the exception of the Technical College, in which it was pointed out.thai; secondary school teachers generally considered that the age of 2t was too early for the operation of the basic wage. He suggested as being more suitable the age of 23 years. The • principals of secondary schools were strongly opposed to obstacles 'to employment being created, particularly in the case of youths of 18 Or, 19 years of age. .'....'.'. .Mrl Armour said that it was understood by school principals that in all probability the principle of the basic wage would not operate' as regards apprentices until the completion of their apprenticeship, even if. the apprenticeship was not entered upon until the age of 18 years or even 19 years. Should the period of apprenticeship terminate before the age of 23 years, it was held by many principals that there should be one year of probation as a journeyman before the basic wage became applicable. The secondary schools were not greatly affected by apprenticeship awards; the concern of secondary school principals was mainly .directed towards clerical workers. ; "It is true," continued Mr. Armour,, "that we do ; not know what the wage is to/be, ibut we are quite; clear as to the effect of its application at the age of 21years. Even now there' is much uneasiness among parents as to. the course they are to, adopt with regard to their children. Parents desirous that their children shoul* have the maximum time .(four or five'years) at a secondary school are in fear lest the complete course of education, thus given will prove to.be an obstacle to employment, because employers will not appoint boys of 17, 18, or 19 years if these must be, given the basic wage at 21 years. 'Rather.they will make 15 or 16 years the maximum age for the appointment.of their juniors." MANUAL AND CLERICAL WORKERS. The clerical worker was usually in somewhat different circumstances from "the manual worker, and .usually workr ed on a'salary scheme Which was progressive over a number. of: years. In the larger business. house's periodic increases in salary were given over perhaps 10 or 12 years or even more. For the manual, "worker the award rate of pay might be reached in a comparatively short'time, his wages then • tending to become;' stationary,,, 'There ; .jwas, then, a difference in incentive. The general application of the basic wage at the early age of 21 years would tend to kill this incentive among clerical workers, Whose training would require to extend over a longer period than that reached by the age of 21 years. . y Secondary school ' teachers would welcome legislation which would rais|e the school age to 16 years. It was bfelieved'ihat hardship would not be entailed by the adoption of this proposal, because the improved conditions now enjoyed by parents would allow of this. This raising of the school age would give every child the privilege of some post-primary education; but no enactment of this kind could be brought about 'if, the basic wage were to operate as early as 21years. The definite evils arising from the operation of the basic wage at the age of 2i years, so far as the schools'were concerned, were:— ' : 1.,-Children are likely to be- deprived of a very. valuable portion of their education. -'■'■ ■ • i 2; Employers are likely to be deprived of the services of well-educated youths, since 'they.■•will be compelled to appoint less mature but more poorlyequipped youths. The higher the general educational level of the employee, the better should he be adapted' to promote the interests of his employer's business and thus the business of' the whole country. 3. The business of the schools is to prepare pupils to earn a living, and in addition to train them'for life and for the increasing leisure that is. to be theirs. This we consider most important. Unless the schools are given the time.,to prepare.young people for the proper enjoyment and use of life and leisure time they^ will cease to perform one of their, most valuable functions. Such preparation' will be impossible if young people-are to go off to work at the age of 15 years. 4..Another,likely, evil, should there be a general exodus from schools before the attainment by pupils of their sixteenth year, will be a tendency towards, excessive cram. Parents will endeavour in the brief post-primary period at the-disposal of their children; to force the pace at which advancement should be made. Even today much of the work ofc the schools is too hurried so that full' advantage of it is not gained by many pupils. , With the operation of the basic wage at 21 years that position will ibe much worSe. .;■ ■'. HIGHER EI)UCAXIO?>f. In addition, to a raising' of the school leaving'age £6 16, continued Mr. Armour, there: was' a; prevalent feeling that no.pupil should be admitted to a university,college until the completion of a fpur.-, years' course .of secondary or posfeprimary educs tion, Very many clerical workers became university, students and to meet this qualification it was .necessary for, them to remain, at school until the age of 17' or .18 years. -, The, application pf. the basic wage at 21' years would prevent the, majority of these young people from being able to remain at school .long enough', to. qualify for university entrance,'and thus'to them would be lost the privilege and advantage of higher education. Ultimately, too,; the employer would suffer when looking for specially-equipped employees to occupy executive posts of importance. It is therefore the general opinion amon? secondary school principals that the basic wage should not operate at the age of 23 years. Many advocated 25 years as the age for its,application. According to statistics, however, while most marriages took place between the. ages of 25 and 30 years (the mean ; ag§, for men being about 30 years and for-women about 26: years), still a very considerable number of marriages took place between the ages of 21 andi2s years. It would, he cqnsidered, be unwise to encourage marriage among clerical workers at 21 years, but every encouragement should be offered to marriage by the age of

25 years, and this was one of the main reasons why he considered the age of 23 years.as suitable for the application of the basic wage. What young people wanted more than anything else was incentive and encouragement to carry: on and attain greater proficiency. The early imposition of a basic wage was likely to kill this incentive! and he feared lest it might kill the schemes of progressive grades of wages and salaries now1 in operation in many businesses, ' In Government Departments, in the teaching profession, in many large mercantile, houses, banks, insurance companies,* and so on, progressive salary, scales had worked well. There might be anomalies, there might even be a Want of liberality at times, but there had. not been any suggestion for the introduction of a basic wage as an alternative. It; was neither needed nor desired at so early an age as 21 years. Above all, principals of .the secondary schools were particularly concerned about "ie employment of youths arriving at the age of .18 or even 19 years, and they were strongly opposed to any conditions or decisions which would become' obstacles to their employment; . ,:; ... . Mr. Armour said his evidence was given as the president of the Secondary Schools' Association. BOYS LEAVING SCHOOL. From the.opening of the second term at Wellington College this year—towards the end of May—up to the present time;9s pupils had left compared with 69 in the corresponding period last year. He calculated that 48 of the 95 boys who had left had been affected in their decision to some extent, at all events, by some fears in regard to the early imposition of the basic wage. Of the 48; 15 were 15.years of age, 28 were 16 years of age, and,s.were 17 years of age.' l"n most cases these boys should have remained at college until at least the end of this year. Some should have remained another year. \i reply to Mn Roberts, Mr. Armour said that he was expressing the opinion of the principals of the Wellington secondary schools, but not the Technical College. Mr. Roberts: If a man at 21 can do the job as well as a man of 25, should he not get the.same wage? Mr. Armour: I believe the person with ability. getting paid for it and not bein w kept on any stated salary. Mr. Roberts: If a teacher has all the qualifications you have got, but is ten years younger, than you, is he entitled to be paid as much as you? Mr. Awnour replied that the younger man might be as good a teacher, but he might not have the administrative ability. - - ' Mr. Roberts interposed that he was thinking of a man with all the necessary' qualifications a teacher could have. , ; Mr. Armour: The younger man would'not have the experience. Mr. Roberts: So it's whiskers and grey hairs that pays your salary. BOYS AND JOBS. Replying to further questions from Mr. Roberts, Mr,, Armour said that there were now 'more positions offering for boys—-more than he could fill. Mr. Roberts: Are not,the boys like' their1 fathers—they take a job when one is available? —Some do. Some don't. Mr. Roberts asked whether it was not a fact that many of the boys took the jobs that were available because their parents could not afford to continue; maintaining'them. Mr.'Armour said he did not know that all the boys left for this reason. The. majority of..the jobs that' were obtained by Wellington College; boys were got through,him. Mr. Roberts:, Then you come to the Court and say they are leaving the place'because of the basic wage. Do you think the Court will ■ take any notice of you? Mr. Armour said he' thought it his duty to announce the jobs to the boys so that those interested could see him about them. He did. not; say .that the boys were frightened of the basic wage. Mr. Roberts: Well, you say-they are afraid of not getting a job. Mr. Roberts asked Mr. Armour if he thought the best policy would be to keep everybody' at> school to the age of 18. Mr. Armour said he did not. Different people matured at different ages and he thought sortie were better away from the ordinary routine of school earlier than others. He thought it would be very uneconomic for all to be at school until the^ were 18. A large number of pupils 'yrould not desire it, and he thought it would be impossible. ■ ■'-~■ "• ' .'." . Mr. Roberts: But you are in favour of keeping clerks there until they are 18?—-Not everybody. '; Only; the select few'that go ,to your school?— Not all that go to our ; school. ■ Mr. Roberts at the conclusion of his cross-examination challenged ■' Mr. Armour to bring three parents who would ■ swear that they were afraid that the operation of the basic wage at 21 years of age would result in their boyS being shut out of jobs if they remained at school too long. For every one. that:-Mr. Armour brought Mr. Roberts contended that he would bring 20 -to say: that they saw no objection to the basic-wage operating at the age Of 21; '■- '. •:• . ' EXPERIENCE IN INDUSTRY^ iff answer to Mr. \ Monteith Mr. Armour said that he had no experience of industry. ' - Mr. Monteith:- Why do you say in your statement, 'It, is held by many principals that there should-be one year probation as a journeyman before the basic wage becomes applicable'? Mr.\ Armour: That is held by some principals.' " Mr. Monteith: Men who are skilled in their trade consider that at; the end of the period of apprenticeship boys are fully skilled and that the year as a journeyman is only cheap labour for the employer? Mr. Armour: I have no knowledge of that. Mr. Monteith:. Then we can strike that statement out of your statement Mr. Armour: Yes. ' Mr. Monteith: You believe wage increases are an incentive for boys? Mr. Armour: Yes. 'Mr. Monteith: When they come to 21 and are going_to get a high wage, why take this incentive away?,

Mi-. Armour: I believe the incentive should operate over a considerable period of years. < Mr. Monteith: You are frightened that -when the boys get to the basic wage they will stop there. Mr. Armour replied that he would like to see a scheme of progressive . wage increases in operation. , Mr. Monteith asked whether any of the parents of the 48 boys who had leit had consulted him. Mr. Armour: Perhaps two or three. I Mr. Monteith: Did any ol.Vhe Vwo or three mention anything about the basic wage? " " i Mr. Armour: No. Mr. Monteith: Not a word? Mr. Armour. No. He added that parents had spoken to him about thematter generally. They had asked whether they should keep ttieir boys at school. The boys knew about the basic wage, and were talking about the effect it might have on them if they stayed on at school. There was no doubt that the problem was in the minds of the boys and their parents. Mr. Prune: There has been a lot of correspondence in the papers. Mr. Armour: Yes, there is a feeling among the boys that they are going to be left. ■""■'.- ATTENDANCES AND SALARIES. Mr. Monteith asked Mr. Armour whether it was not a fact that salaries, grading, and school attendances were not all interrelated. Mr. Armour said that if there was a sudden drop in the school attendance the assistant teachers would be more likely to feel the . effect, first. The salary of. the' head teacher would be affected ultimately. < Mr. Monteith: If attendances increase 'on the other hand the teachers benefit?— They might and they mightn't. In my case that would not be the position. Mr. Monteith: Aren't principals concerned, vitally concerned? Take technical schools, for instance. Aren't they always vitally concerned to see that there are more pupils coming in every year, and the bigger the increase the better they like it?—l think the general feeling is that they do not want more people than they have the facilities to handle, irrespective of their salary. In reply to another question, Mr. Armour said it was over twenty years ago since he was connected with a technical school. *■ The Court adjourned until this morning. ': . '■