NOT UNDERSTOOD

Evening Post, Volume CXXI, Issue 107, 7 May 1936, Page 14

NOT UNDERSTOOD

PLEBISCITE ■ IDEA

FAVOURED BY MR. WRIGHT

Continuing the debate on the second reading, Mr, R. A. Wright (Independent, Wellington Suburbs) said'-that. the. people did not understand the measure and how far it went, and such a complete change in • the administration of the country's affairs should nc' be introduced hurriedly. The untried principles in the BilL should be .thoroughly examinedI.' He favoured >a plebiscite, and said that non-farmers, who would have to foot the bill for the guaranteed . price,- should . have a voice.. He was confident how they would vote. He denied that all electorates in New Zealand hqd.had an equal opportunity of. fully understanding the Government's proposals. THE FIRST CLOSURE. The first application of the closure came at 3.40 p.m., immediately after Mr. Wright had concluded his speech. "I ■ move that the question be now put," said the Prime Minister (the Rt. Hon. M. J. " vage), amidst cries of "The gag, the gag," and "We expected that," from the' Opposition benches. The Speaker (the Hon. W.E. Barnard') said that in view of the fact that that was ths first time the closure had been moved 'in the House during the present Pvirlianient he desired to explain his position. He was guided by two principles—whether the closure was an abuse of the rules of the House or. an infringement of the rights of a minority. He ruled that neither con-sideration-applied in the present case, and he .proposed to accept the motion. The closure was applied by 50 votes to 20.- ---■ The House then divided on the amendment moved by the Hon. A Hamilton (National, Wallace). This ■vas as follows:— In. the opinion of this House, the Bill should be referred back to the Government for further consideration on the grounds that—(l) The Bill, proposes to restrict the freedom of private ownership and to destroy individu ' rights long enjoyed by the.primary producer of this r'country inasmuch as he has always retained freedom of production and ownership, .whereas the measure before the House introduces new principles and untried methods in that the State, assumes ownership and distribution of all his primary produce and in particular dairy produce and all allied produce, boneless veal, pigs, and manufactured by-products of milk, and in effect amounts to confiscation; (2) the Bill purports to eliminate fluctuations in the market prices of. exported primary products, but; fails to do so as it provides that the prices :shall from timfe to time be fixed; by the • Governor-General by Order in Council; (3) the price received . for. butter up to the end •of March last averaged 12.20 d per 1b and that (in view of climatic ■conditions, and other factors affecting New Zealand's competitors in world markets and the prices received over the past year) there are clear indications •of improved prices for the current year; (4) the methods and' basis of estimating the prices to be nxed for the primary products to be taken over are impracticable; (5) the proposed change in the channels oi distribution, that, have been built up 6ver many years of experience and practice must injuriously affect the good: wiir established overseas and thereby react to the disadvantage of the dairy farmer; (6) the freedom enjoyed by farmers in the past m manufacturing home-made butter and cheese and in supplying surplus to stores is curtailed by the provisions of the Bill; (7) in y vie^ of the. far-reaching effect of the measure, under discussion, the primary producer should be given an opportunity of deciding by a plebiscite his approval, or otherwise of theprinciples;contained therein;-and (8) assistance, can ; be given to the primary producer ;by;;methods other than by snfr, of V SSUI? ing com Plete ownersnip pf all produce. HOW MEMBERS VOTED. The amendment was negatived hv v> the division !ist ft S Noes (52). Anderton McDougaU Armstrong McMillan Atmore Martin ■! Barnes Mason ' Barrell .- Meachen C. H. Burnett ■ Moncur Campbell '•■ Munro C«rr . Nash Chapman Nordmeycr Christie . Parry Cotterill Petrie

Coulter . Ratana Cullen Richards . •Fraser • •' Roberts .Herring . . Robertson ' " ; Hodgens' ■" Rushworth . Howard , Savage ■■ Hultquist ( Schramm ■ Hunter.' Semple . ; . Jones- - ' ' Sexton N Jordan, • ■ Sullivan ■ . ■ Langstone Thorn .: Bee .: ' Tirikatcue ..' . Lowry .■ „ , Webb .. Lyon ' Williams ■McCombs - . Wilson ~" ;.- •■• . Ayes (20). • Bodkin. , Holland Broadfoot Holyoake. T.; D. Burnett Kyle Coates , Ngata ' Cobbe Poison • Dickie Ransom Endean . Roy Forbes Smith .. .Hamilton Wilkinson Hargest Wright. The second reading was then carried by 52 votes to 20. < LIMITED SPEECHES. On the short title, the Leader of the Opposition (the Rt. Hon. G. W. Forbes) protested against the limitation of speeches, remarking that "half an hour was not long enough for such an important measure." Mr. Forbes asked whether it was the intention of the Government .for the Minister of Finance to administer the Bill. He considered that if the Government were to take over providing products other than butter, then that power should be provided in another Bill. 'Mr. Hamilton asked whether' sufficient powers were in the Bill to enable the Minister to acquire any primary products without further legislation. If the dairy companies entered into a contract for the sale of dairy produce before the passing of the Bill, would they be able to complete the contract after the Bill became operative? "Primary product" was not defined. A TELEPHONE CONVERSATION. Mr.-H.-G. Dickie (National, Patea) protested against" the rush tactics of the Government, and said that at the request:' of the Federation of Dairy Factories in Taranaki he had telephoned the Prime Minister on Sunday morning asking that the Bill should be postponed so as to enable the dairy factories to make representations. Mr. Savage: You didn't ask me. Mr. ,Dickie: I did it at the request of the federation. I don't know whether the Prime Minister knows the difference between firmness and obstinacy. I don't know whether he thinks it is the action of a strong man or whether he is drunk with power. Instead of having people with democratic ideas in charge of this measure we have people with dictatorial ideas who are telling the dairy farmer where he stands and where he gets off The Prime Minister said that'Mr Dickie had rung him, and had asked him when-the committee stage of the Bill would be taken. "The hon. gentleman never suggested in any shape or form that the Bill should be postponed He may have intended to do it, but L^, no* going to accept the blame lit ?v ,°"- f entlema"'s mistakes." Mr., Dickie: I certainly did ■ Mr. Savage:. The hon. gentleman certainly did not. I wondered why you rung me up, and I win be very careful about speaking to the hon. gentleman in the future. s Mr; Dickie: I won't waste a bureau on you again.. • Mr. Savage: Don't waste your time. a the hon. gentleman uses the telephone service for the purpose of misrepresenting me and the Government I,will leave it to his electors to put a value on him. Mr. Dickie: The Prime Minister's statement is entirely incorrect. Would I go to the: trouble of discussing the I.C: and A. Bill with him? Mr. Dickie said that he explained to the Prime Minister that the farmers would not be able to get the paper explaining the Bill till a certain date. "NOT A WORD." . Mr."; Savage: You never said a word about a paper. Mr. Dickie: It's too absurd. No intelligent person would accept his statement. -: He said that he rang up at the request of the chairman and secretary of .the federation. Mr. Savage: Then you didn't do the job. ,'..•■. Mr. Dickie (referring to the Prime Minister): He must have been walking in his sleep when he was talking to me. ■ . The Minister of. Education (the Hon. P. Fraser) said that Mr. Savage had informed him about the conversation. He supported Mr. Savage's statement; ' Mr; H. S. S. Kyle (National, Riccarton):When did that conversation take, place? Mr. Fraser: If the member for Riccarton is questioning my word, let him do It openly. Mr. W. J. Poison (National, Strat-

ford) said that Mr. Dickie had informed him of what had taken place. Mr. Fraser: "My conversation took place with the Prime Minister on Monday morning. Mr. Poison said that it could not be suggested that both Mr. Dickie and Mr Savage were deliberately, misleading the House, and he did hot see the necessity for .doubting the", word of either. Probably the telephone system failed for a moment/ .Mr. S. G. Smith (National, New Plymouth) said that the-Federation was not represented at the recent conference and- was .anxious 'for time. He asked Mr. Nash to postpone consideration of the Bill/which might be the ruin of the dairy industry. Mr. Poison: It will be. Mr. Dickie said he resented the cheap sarcasm of • Mr. Fraser. Why Mr. Fraser had butted in to the conversation, he did not know. Mr. ■ Fraser: It wasn't Intended to please you. Mr. Dickie: Cheap, guttersnipe business. • -. . • A POSTPONEMENT. Mr. C. A. Wilkinson (Independent, Egmont) also urged the postponement of the measure, and asked the Prime Minister if he had considered the many representations that had, been* made to him: The Bill was the most important measure before the House since he became a member and the Government should meet the farmers and ascertain their minds. Wherever a Government had undertaken trading the results had been disastrous. The Minister of Marketing was going to become an absolute autocrat. The people had' never been told that the Government would take over the dairy produce by force. "This is a marketing problem, not a farming problem," said the Minister of Finance (the Hon. W. Nash). "It is a marketing problem associated with farm produce. The farmer does not do the marketing; he has not done the marketing in the past. The marketing has always been done by others extraneous to the industry." Mr. Nash denied that the farmers had not been told what the Government intended to do and it was all balderdash to say anything else. Fifty-one thousand of the farmers had a pamphlet sent to them explaining the Labour Party policy. WHAT OF THE BROADCAST? So far as complaints about haste were concerned, the Bill was certainly being considered much more quickly than it would have been considered if the Opposition had accepted the Government's offer. The Opposition had refused the offer of the Government to carry on with the second reading in order to:give Mr. Forbes a chance to speak over the air and for him (Mr. Nash) to reply over the air. He suggested that had been done because the Opposition did not want the farmers to hear the Government's case again. (Government applause.) Mr. Nash maintained that the Bill had been before the country long enough to. enable its provisions to be understood by all, and in addition to that there had been numerous discussions.with representatives of the dairy industry. The Minister explained that he had transferred to the Government, through the Department, the powers previously held by the Executive Commission of Agriculture, which had transferred to it the powers of the various export control boards. Everything that was worthwhile could be done .by regulations. . THROWN TO THE WOLVES. Mr. W. A. Bodkin (National, Central Otago) said that because; some, farmers had got Into the hands of the speculators the prudent farmers were to be thrown to the wolves.., The price was to be fixed without taking into account world parity. Mr. "A. F. Moncur (Government, Rotorua): Why shouldn't it be? Mr. Bodkin said that the farmer would not share in any world recovery. He would be assured of a reasonable standard of living and would have to be satisfied with that. ' Mr. K. J. Holyoake (National, Motueka) objected,to the Government's policy of "bludgeoning" the Bill through. He contended that all the members of the Government did not understand the Bill, which placed in the hands of the Minister absolute dictatorial powers. Mr. Kyle also criticised the power given to the Minister, and condemned the Government for rushing the Bill through the House. The Opposition had been accused of preventing the Minister and 'the Leader of the Opposition from going' on the air that evening, but the. Opposition had observed the Standing Orders. Why should they be controlled by the Broadcasting ..80ard....0r.....the. Prime Minister, who wished certain members to be heard over the air? He contended that the only definite mandate the Government had from the people was on the liquor question. They had

a chance now to take a plebiscite on the question before the House.

The Minister: We can take a referendum here.

Mr. Kyle: Take it outside the House! You are not game .to do so. Give the farmers an opportunity to say whether (hey want it or not. Look at the Ministers occupying the front benches. There is not a farmer among them. I doii't suppose any of them has produced a lbof butterfat or even milked a cow. The Minister of Lands. (the Hon. F. Langstone): I'll take you on. The Minister of Labour (the Hon. H. T. Armstrong): The only thing to be said in his favour is that he can milk a cow. (Laughter.) Mr. Kyle objected to the over-rid-ing powers relating to the fixing of the price. "A LOT OF CHILDREN." Mr. W. J. Broadfoot (National, Waitomo) declared that the Bill violated principles which had been fought for over the years. He objected to the farming community being treated like a lot of children. It was only now that farmers were realising the wide powers contained in the Bill and they were making protests on every side. Last Monday he had attended a pro^ test meeting at Hamilton. ■ Mr. H. M. Christie (Government, Waipawa): Did you frame the resolution? « Mr. Broadfoot also protested vigorously against the work of the House being arranged to suit broadcasting needs. The work of the House should proceed in a normal way. If theyI were going to adjust the working of the House to broadcasting then the sooner it was cut out the better it would- be for all concerned. The Minister of Finance said that the I Leader of the Opposition had complained that the Bill was transferring to the Government powers which the farmer should have. Speaking as Prime Minister a few years ago Mr. Forbes had declared that the Government would have to enter into marketing more and more. • (Laughter.) He did not think Mr. Forbes h*H changed so much as he had pretended. Mr. Nash made it plain that before the Government took control of the meat and wool it would be necessary to pass another Bill. The Leader of the Opposition, complained that the Minister had not quoted him fully. When Mr. Nash had been Minister of Marketing for some time he would find that marketing was not so easy. Any restrictions that were enforced and any exclusion of men engaged in marketing would cause a swing to the Dominion's competitors, among whom was Australia. The Government was going to take the produce of this country and hand the control of its marketing to departmental officers to compete with experts. There would be many difficulties in the marketing of the Dominion's enormous quantity of produce. "We have an open market in Great Britain, and we can sell any quantity," said Mr. Forbes, "but If we load the market we will bring down the price. Where the Government is making a mistake is that the dairy farmers were encouraged to increase production, and we are going to have the greatest difficulty in holding the market." , , . . Mr. Forbes said that the former Government never did anything except in conjunction with" the board, under which marketing had steadily improved. It did not commit the farmers unless it ■ kad their agreement. It did not say, "this is ours and we will do what we like with it." It did not do anything without the concurrence of the farmers. The Rt. Hon. J. G. Coates (National, Kaipara) said that the Minister of Public Works (the Hon. R. Semple), in the course of his election campaign, had stated that the guaranteed price was nothing but a repayable advance, yet the dairy farmers were being led to believe that something. was really being done for them. He twitted the Government members on their silence, and contended that the party whip had been cracking.. Mr.., Coates said that when the Minister went to the United Kingdom he would find that he would not be able to secure bilateral agreements, and also that the State ownership" of produce would not be favoured. New Zealand could not be insulated against the impact- of extreme conditions. The Prime Minister moved the closure at 9.15 o'clock, and the short title was agreed to by 52 votes to 20. Speaking on clause 2, dividing the Bill into three parts, the Hon. Sir Alfred Ransom (National, Pahiatua) essayed to reopen a general, discussion on the Bill, but the Chairman of Committees (Mr. E. J. Howard) ruled him out of order. He was told to show reasons why there should or should not be three parts of the Bill. Sir Alfred expressed the view that the Bill should be divided into so many parts that there was nothing left. (Laughter.) The clause was' passed. THE NEW MINISTER. Mr. Kyle asked the Minister to be frank and say who the Minister of Marketing was to be—whether it was to be the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of. Finance, the Minister of Justice, or the Minister of Mines. It would seem that the Minister of Agriculture would be the proper Minister to take the position, as he controlled practically, the whole of the Dominion's primary producer. They did not want the Minister of Public Works or the PostmasteivGeneral. r ' The Minister, of Public Works (the Hon. R. Semple): Why be so nosey? Mr. Kyle: Unfortunately I was born that way. (Laughter.) Mr. S. G. Smith (National, New Plymouth) wanted to know whether Clause 3 meant the appointment of a new Minister. It would entail additional expense. The Rev. C. Carr (Government, Timaru): No. Mr. W. P. Endean (National, Parnell): Another couple of thousand won't do any harm. Mr. Smith asked if. it were intended to co-opt someone . from outside; whether the Government had in mind placing a first-class businessman in "another place" who -might be Minister of Marketing. He must be a man with some previous experience. Mr. Broadfoot: As the Minister for New Plymouth (Laughter). . Mr. J. Robertson (Government, Masterton): The new Minister? Mr. Broadfoot: As the member for New Plymouth has said, this is a question that is troubling the people of this country. He went.on to say that'the appointment would mean additional expense. Mr. Semple: Where is the money coming from? (Laughter). Mr. Broadfoot said they had a Minister of Agriculture and a Department of Agriculture and he did not see why the job could not be. dor#by the Department and the Minister. NOT PAD) ENOUGH. Mr. Wilkinson said whatever the cost of a new Minister was it would be a mere' bagatelle compared with the cost' of the whole scheme. There would be enough, or more than enough, for.one.man.to do. 'He felt that: Ministers of the Crown in New Zealand were paid not nearly enough. He would be satisfied and he 'believed the country would.be .satisfied, if the control of the new Department.were placed in

the hands of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Nash).

Mr. Poison said the Government might have reasons for not giving the job to the Minister of Agriculture, although he seemed the logical choice. The new Department should be controlled by somebody who knew something about agriculture. He moved as an amendment that the Minister of Agriculture should be appointed the Minister of Marketing. Mr. Schramm: Political bluff. Mr. Poison: There are two parrots on the perch now. Mr. Schramm: I would rather be a parrot than a goat. Mr. Poison: The honourable gentleman is entitled to his choice. The Chairman ruled the amendment out of order, as the House could not make a recommendation to the Governor-General, whose function it was to appoint the new Minister. Mr. Hamilton said they should relieve the Minister of Finance of an additional burden. The new Minister would have a full-time job, and the Minister of Finance could not possibly do justice to it. , Mr. Nash said the Government had placed the best available man in charge of production and that was the Minister of Agriculture. What was wanted now was a sales manager. Mr. Bodkin moved a futher amendment, removing any reference to the Governor-General, to provide that the Minister of Marketing should be the Minister of Agriculture. Mr. Wilkinson said that the Government and not the House must be responsible for the. appointment, consequently he hoped that the amendment would be decided on the voices* The amendment was lost, arid the clause was agreed to. Mr. Broadfoot moved an amendment to the following.clause, the effect being to place the Primary Products Marketing Department under the control of the Minister of Agriculture. The amendment was lost on the voices. Dealing with the same clause, Mr Holyoake considered that the existing export control boards were capable of attending to marketing, and that there was no need for a new Department of State. The clause was agreed to without a division. BEST AVAILABLE MAN. Referring to the appointment of a Director of Marketing, Mr. Hamilton suggested that'members of the Executive Commission of Agriculture and members' of the Dairy Board would be found valuable in assisting in marketing. The Minister said that the best available man would be appointed, and the selection would not be restricted to. the members of .the Executive Commission of Agriculture. The clause was passed. Attention was called by Mr. Broadfoot to the wide-functions given to the Marketing- Department under the appropriate clause. His experience was that there was a lack of incentive in Government Departments. An officer of a Government Department might do things well on twenty occasions but if he did one thing once wrong he was gone.- ■ The view that the clause was fraught with grave danger was expressed by Mr. Bodkin, who said he was afraid there would be restricted avenues for the sale of New i Zealand produce. "A smash and grab clause" was the description applied' to the clause by Mr. Dickie,: who said that State trading had always involved .Governments in losses: The principle' of grabbing the produce without = giving -producers a chance of ■ saying -whether they wanted to: come under it or not was entirely wrong. Mr. Coates asked what mandate had the Minister to take over the whole of the primary produce of the country. He did'not think that ever1 in the history of- a .country had there been such an occurrence where a Government had deliberately taken control of the products of the individuals. Mr. Richards: Under: the British Crown cannot all produce be taken in a national emergency? . ■ • Mr. Coates: What is the national emergency in the price of meat today? . Mr. Richards: You are not the last word you know. Mr.Coates said that, meat prices were never better.. Mr. Broadfoot protested against the shipping provisions of the clause, and moved an amendment to limit the functions of the board' of control.' The amendment was lost by 48 votes to 19. . . . The Prime Minister moved the closure on'the clause. His motion was carried by 51 votes to 19. On a division, the clause was retained by 49 votes to 19, and the next clause, transferring the functions of the Executive Commission of. Agriculture to the Department, was agreed to on the voices. -. DAIRY INDUSTRIES ACCOUNT. When- the clause establishing the •Dairy Industry Account was reached, Mr. Broadfoot moved an amendment limiting the amount which-the Government could borrow. "This is the 'sky's the limit'• clause," he said, and advocated that there should be some limit in the amount that could be borrowed The Leader of; the Opposition said he never expected he wauld live to see the day when the ■ Government would be given unlimited authority to borrow. . Mr. Schramm: You will see a lot more yet. Mr. Forbes: It's just as well we're tough or we would have heart disease. (Laughter.) He said for the sake of the reputation of Parliament it was necessary to preserve the ordinary principles of sound business. ' Mr. Nash said:the. clause gave the Government power to do what was already provided by the Reserve Bank Act. Mr. J. Hargest (National; Invercargill) said that to borrew without limit would be to invite disaster. The clause was another case of the sky being the limit. The closure was once again applied at this stage, the voting: being 44 to 18. The amendment was defeated by .46 votes to 17. and the clause was retained by 45 votes to 17. On another clause Opposition members asked if the overdraft at the Reserve Bank would be added to the Public Debt. Mr. Nash said, there would be a debit against the Government and a credit at the Reserve Bank. Mr. Hamilton: But will it be 'added to the Public Debt? ■ ■ ■ Mr. Nash: I don't mind if it is. The Reserve Bank is owned by the Government. ■ Mr. Hamilton: But the Reserve Bank must stand on its own feet. Mr. Nash: Then, very well, we will stand on the feet of the Reserve Bank Mr. Savage said the question was a stupid one. Mr. Coates said that everyone was not stupid because the Prime Minister said so. Mr. Savage: Why not go down to the Waiho Gorge and have a good think about it? Mr. Coates: No doubt the Prime Minister would like me to be there. The clause was passed. • Mr. A. C. A. Sexton (Independent,

Country Party, Franklin) moved, as an amendment, that when the annual report r.nd accounts on the workings of the Department were laid before ParJiainent, an indication should be eiven showing how the guaranteed price was determined. Mr. Poison agreed that there should be some . indication as to how the ; price was determined. The amendment was lost by <_4 votes to 18. Mr. Ky] e sought to restrict the interpretation of -dairy produce" to milk cream, butter, and cheese only, and to delete all reference to calves and pigs The discussion was cut short by the . closure, which.was carried by 45 votes to 17 The amendment was defeated by 45 to 17. The clause was retained by 44 to : _ Mr. Poison moved an amendment to the next clause with the object of . providing for a plebiscite to be taken by. r producers before their products : were-taken over. - Producers had al- , ways had. the right?to sell their pro- ! duce where they liked' and-' how they liked. . : ~ - A Labour member: And • when they ' could. ; Mr. Poison: Yes, and when they , could. That is a perfectly sound principle. He said the farming community ; would resent what was being done ; and referred to the-Prinie Minister a? ■ a "ruthless dictator? 1 . The Leader of the Opposition suggested that the Minister should accept the clause. Mr. Forbes asked if the • price was to be fixed for a year or [ whether there would be any variation ■ during the season.. The Minister of Education suggested : that the amendment involved an appropriation, as it would entail expendi- : ture on the part of the Crown. : Opposition members argued that the ; cost of a plebiscite would come out ' of the producers' own funds. The Chairman ruled the amendment : out as involving an appropriation. Mr. Kyle moved that Stewart Island should be excluded from the provisions of the Bill, and the Prime Minis- : ter immediately moved for the application of the closure. This led to pro- : tests from the Opposition, and the Chairman agreed to a little more-lati-tude but eventually the amendment was withdrawn on the understanding that the Minister of Finance would • consider the matter. The clause was retained by 45 votes to 17. In fixing the price of exported dairy produce, Mr. Sexton sought to amend the Bill in the direction of securing , an independent authority making. an investigation and a report. He contended that it was not right that the same authority that paid the price should fix-the price.- . . . The Minister said that, more investigation was required in fixing the price under the Bill than" in determining any other sum that was fixed. Mr. Forbes said that there would be much more • confidence among • the farmers if Mr. Sexton's suggestion' were carried out. ; The Chairman ruled the amendment out of order on.the.ground that it in--1 volved appropriation. • - Mr. Bodkin rose to a point of order, : and asked the: Chairman if he -had taken into account the fact that the Minister said an' investigation would be made. . The Prime Minister:' Is. it not. a fact that you have already ruled, and member in order in arguing about your ruling?, ■ ". • The Chairman: It's 3: o'clock,' and I admit I have been a bit lax in putting a check on. * . , ; : Mr. Bodkin: Mr.. Chairman . The Prime Minister: -Mr.. Chairman, you have already :ruled—— Mr. Poison: This is just bullying the House. . The Chairman: I have ruled the matter out. . , Mr. Sexton, moved that instead, of the guaranteed price being fixed on an average price over eight to ten years, the period should be 15 years. The amendment was defeated by 44 votes to 19. The closure was applied on the clause without division, and a number of amendments were defeated, on divisions. ■ . The clause was retained on the voices. . On the motion of the Minister,, a new clause was added giving the Minister authority to arrange terms ■of provisional trade agreements with a view to the promotion of reciprocal trade. The committee stages of the Bill were completed at 4.10 a.m.'