STATE'S POWERS

Evening Post, Volume CXVIII, Issue 28, 2 August 1934, Page 12

STATE'S POWERS

IN/TROUBLOUS TIMES

MUST BE MAINTAINED

MR. FORBES'S VIEW

REPLY TO LABOUR

There were some sharp exchanges between the Prime Minister (the Rt. Hon., G. W. Forbes) and members of a Labour deputation which Avaited orf Mr. Forbes and the Minister of Justice (the Hon. J. G. Cobbe) today to protest against the introduction of the Harbours Amendment Bill and the Police Offences Bill, both of which give statutory effect to sections of the War Regulations. The deputation, which was representative of the Alliance of Labour, the Seamen's Union, and the Waterside Workers' Federation, asked that the Government should drop both Bills. Mr. Forbes made it plain that the Government was determined to maintain the powers it held at present to protect citizens in time of trouble. He expressed: the opinion that in times such as the present there was need for even greater powers than were already possessed by the Government. Tho Leader of tho Opposition (Mr. M. J. Savage) introduced the deputation. Tho secretary of the Alliance of Labour (Mr. J. Roberts) said that the two measures were not new to them, because when they -were introduced during tho war, the Government had acquainted them with tho reasons why they were being introduced, arid the lato .Mr. Massey had stated that they would 100 applied only in the case of emergency. The War Regulations were introduced in order to give reasonable protection to shipping and other industries. .They were re-enacted in 1920, and Mr. Massey had given a promise that they would not bo introduced in an industrial dispute. Tho regulations' were now being enacted again,' and the Government had power to declare any industry an essential •industry when the workers took action in self-defence. The Government could declare any strike a seditious strike and sentence the workers to three months' imprisonment without the right of appeal. In 1920 tho Arbitration Court, was available to the'workers for the. settlement, of industrial disputes, but now the Court was abolished, and if the workers struck in defence of their standard of living, their action could be declared .seditious. -IN NEW ZEALAND ONLY. Thero was no such measure in operation in any other country in the world today. When the Treaty of Versailles was signed, it was agreed that the wartime legislation dealing with industrial matters should be abolished. The New Zealand Government was the only one in tho world except Spain to retain its war-time measures, and at the international conferenco of trade unions at Stockholm war was declared on the measures in Spain, with the result that they were abolished. The watersidei-s had nothing to sell but their labour power, and they had the right to sell it to the best advantage. If the employers wanted to lower the standard, of living, and the workers resisted, then tho provisions of the Bills now before tho -House could, bo invoked. There was no other country in tho world so clear of industrial troubles and internal difficulties as New Zealand, and frankly it seemed that, tho Government was looking for trouble. The Harbours Amendment Bill had nothing to do with harbours. The War Regulations on this question were introduced at the request,of the British Government for the purpose of • protecting shipping during the war and ensuring the transport of troops and foodstuffs overseas. There was now no necessity for tho legislation, and they wished to know if jbhe Government would keep the promise that was given by Mr. Massey, that the legislation would never be applied in industrial disputes. DROP IN EARNINGS. There had been a dispute on the wharves three months ago as the result of a request by the waterside workers that their standard of living should be increased. Since 1930 the Watersiders' wages had been cut in half. Mr. Forbes: The rate has not been cut in half. Mr. Roberts: That is true, but the weekly earnings of the men have been reduced to an average of £2 per week, and one of the reasons is the falling off in imports as the .result of the manipulation of the exchange, for which tho Government was responsible. Mr. Forbes: Wo won't argue about that, point at the present time. Mr. Roberts said that the exchange Tatfe had had a serious, effect on the trade of the country, and as a result tho watersider' had suffered. 'In addition thore had been a direct 20 per cent, cut in wages, and the introduction of machinery processes had also affected the workers. The men were now'asking for increases in wages and they asked whether tho legislation had boon introduced at the request of the Shipowners' Federation, the Employers' Federation, and other, associations. Mi*. Forbes: They have never made any request for the legislation. Mr. Roberts: They why in the devil do you introduce it? I feel sore about this. When Mr. Massey re-enacted the legislation he said that he would'not impose it in tho cape of industrial disputes. Now that it is being reintroduced, it seems only reasonable to expect that some use will be made of it. The Labour Party states that tho measures were enacted to deal with war-time conditions. Mr.: Forbes: They have always said that. AN INTERNATIONAL MATTER. Mr. Roberts: They are right. These measures have been wiped out in every country in the world except New Zealand. ' , He 'asked that a promise should be given' that the legislation would not he used in the case of industrial disputes. It was an international matter. The transport workers of European countries had declared war against such r^asures, and, although it was the custom to settle New Zealand disputes internally, if the legislation was inyoked for the purpose of intervening in industrial disputes, then the matter would be taken outsde Now Zealand. Even some of the supporters of 'the Government were opposed to the legislation, which was contrary to British traditions. 'If the Bills were put through an amendment would be required to the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, under which the •workers could strike after taking a ballot. This Act would conflict, with the liov legislation, and they wanted to know which legislation would operate. "I want to appeal to you to wipe these two measures out," said Mr. Roberts, who added that the Bills meant that tho police and not tho industrialists would bo running industrial dispute.1).,'

Even in Italy provision was made for tho Hearing of disputes by a tribunal. The only country comparable*with Now Zealand in the matter was Germany, and tho workers deeply resented iu> dustrial dictatorship. NO SINISTER DESIGN. Replying to tho deputation, tho Prime Minister said that as far back as 1930 the late Sir Thomas Sidey had been approached by law societies and chambers of commerce asking that the War Regulations should be put into statute form. Sir Thomas had agreed to.draft the necessary legislation, and the present was tho first opportunity the Government had had of introducing the legislation. More important business had prevented the matter being brought before the House previously. "I want to assure you that thero is no sinister design behind the Government's action," said Mr. Forbes.

Tho Rev. C. Carr (Labour, Timaru) Just pure bungling.

Mr. Forbes: There is not one thing in the Bills that is not already on the Statute Book. The Government is not taking one bit more power than it has already. If thero is any considerable objection to the Bills, they can be dropped. If it is thought that things should be left as they are, the Government has the power under the War Regulations Continuance Act of 1920. Mr. Roberts: We have your promise that the legislation will not bo used in any industrial dispute. Mr. Forbes: I made no promise. Mr. Roberts: Your predecessor did. Mr. Forbes : We are not going to let one section of the community have the power to threaten other sections. The Government is not going to allow that to occur, not for a moment. We are not going to allow the wharves to be taken charge of as was done in 1913. In 1913 it was necessary for people to get a ticket from the strike committee to allow them to go on their own wharves. Mr. Roberts: That never occurred. Mr: Forbes: I know persons who still have permits signed by tho strike committee. That shows what can. be done by one section. Mr. L. Glover: I was chairman of the strike committee in IDI3, and no such permits were ever issued. EXERCISED WITH DISCRETION. Mr. Forbes: I was hero in 1913, and I remember the Department of Agriculture had to get a permit to take meat over to Somes Island. Do you think we would allow things like that to occur again? The State must sco that services are earned on. So far as the powers contained in the Bills are concerned, they will be exercised with the same discretion ■as in tho past. This is not a time for the State to do away with the powers necessary for tho protection of tho people of tho country.

Mr. Roberts said that all over the world every case brought under War Regulations had failed, and that was why the Government was bringing down the new Bills. Mr. Forbes: Thai is not so. Mr. Roberts: Oh, I know why you are doing it. I know why the War Regu-, lations Continuance Act was passed. If was for diplomatic reasons, Mr. Forbes: If you say there are greater powers in these Bills, I will have that looked up, and I will answer it in the House.

Mr. Savage: Tho chairman of the Auckland Harbour Board has made the same statement.

Mr. Forbes: No fresh, powers are be ing taken.

Mr. A. S. Richards (Labour, Roskill): Then why waste time and money? Mr. Forbes: We are not wasting the time' of the House. We thought thero would be no opposition to the Bills at all. ' ENFORCING THE REGULATIONS. Mr;- Roberts: You are taking additional'powers; -Under the War Regulations Continuance- Act, you had to prove in- an 'English court of law that there was a war in existence or danger of war- befdre you could enforce the regulations. Tho legal fraternity knows that.

Mr. Forbes: I have never heard that argument raised before. I will be pleased to look into it. I can assure you there is no nigger in the woodpile. If we find wo want still more powers we will bring down fresh legislation. In these troublous times the State needs even more powers than it has already. A voice: Hitler! Mr. Forbes: There is no Hitler business about it at all. The people of the country have the right to claim protection. Mr. F. Laiigstone (Labour, Waimarino): They want protection from, the Government.

Mr. Forbes: I am. certain the people will look to tho Government in times of emergency. Mr. Roberts: You have all the powers you want to deal with industrial disputes. ' Under these Bills you are beating a dead dog. Mr. R. Semplo (Labour, Wellington East) said that ,the Prime Minister must know that under tho legislation innocent men could be gaoled for taking part in a strike in defence of their rights. Mr. H. G. R. Mason (Labour, Auckland Suburbs): Exactly. Mr. Forbes said that it was tho duty Of the Government to treat all sections of the community with justice.

Mr. Semple said that the Prime Minister's confession that the Bills had been introduced at the behest of the law societies and the chambers of commerce showed that there was a dictatorship outside the House. , ~] Mr. Forbes: Wo can argue that out inside the House.

Mr. Semple: Wo will do that all right. The deputation then withdrew.