MANY DIVISIONS

Evening Post, Volume CXI, Issue 77, 1 April 1931, Page 11

MANY DIVISIONS

DISCUSSION ON FINANCE BILL

PRIME MINISTER APPLIES CLOSURE

The JirsL all-niglu silling in Committee on the Financial Bill since the inclusion of llie closure in llic Standing Orders of the House of Representatives concluded I Ills morning, and so far six clauses have been disposed of, us against one clause after 67 hours' debating before the Standing Orders were amended. During the night the closure was applied on three occasions, but the Labour Party was allowed to put ils numerous amendments to the vote. As a result the bells were ringing almost continuously from 7.30 p.m. to 9.30 p.m., and frequently after the supper adjournment at 10 o'clock. During the night about 50 divisions were taken, but in the early hours of the morning objections were raised by members of the Reform Party to the reduced grants to local bodies, and this question, which is reported elsewhere, was not disposed of at the breakfast adjournment.

Mr. C. A. Wilkinson (Independent, Egmont) said he thought the Government was going too far in making its reductions and that a sliding scale would be preferable. Ten per cent, was too much to deduct from tho wages of the man earning only £4 per week. Reductions / must be done with justice and reason, but tho Government's proposals were not fair at all. Ho pointed out that the post of living was considerably higher in some parts nf the Dominion than in others. Mr. M'Dougall had cited tho 41b loaf at 9d, but in some parts of the Dominion it sold afc Is Id and Is 2d. "A POLITICAL CLOWN." Mr. R. Somplo (Lab., Wellington East), further criticised an earlier speech by Mr. D. M'Dougall (United, Mataura), and pictured him going along Lambton quay, visiting shops, a.nd "strolling promiscuously into the butcher's." "Truly," ho said the United Party has turned into a political circus and has appointed a clown to do that job." (Laughter.) Mr. Chairman: "Order 1 The honourable gentleman will withdraw that." Mr. Semple: "I withdraw, with an ordinary apology to the clown." Mr. Chairman: "Order!" The Prime Minister alleged that Mr. Somplo in his best soap-box style was trying to stir up class feeling. Mr. Wilkinson was a business man, and must know that prices wero coming down. "If ho is not passing it on, that is his own business," he said. Mr. J. S. Fletcher (Independent, Grey Lynn): "A point of order. Is the Prime Minister in order in referring to a member's personal affairs?" The Chairman: "The Prime Minister was not referring to an honourable member personally." Mr. Fletcher: "He referred to the lion, member's personal business." The Chairman: "I rule that the Primo Minister was not dealing with the private business of tho membor foT .Egmont." Mr. Forbes said he did not intend to rofer to anybody's private business. He had been assured by business men that thoy were passing on the reduction in the price of goods to the public. The Labour Party was ignoring that; they were toying to stir up class .feeling, and to make trouble that might be very serious. He- said that the men getting £4 a week were single men. Mr. Semple: "Give us tho figures." The Prime Minister said that many would be glad of a £190 job. Many thousands of farmers would apply for it-. Undoubtedly we were in the worst financial straits the country had ever been in, and yet members were trying to cloud the real position. The prices of many commodities were down far more than 10 per cent., and when Mr. MTDougall investigated tho position ho was discredited. Mr. Fletcher: "Of course he is. He is wrong." HEAvT TAXATION PROPOSALS. Mr. Forbes said that the taxation proposals Kad yet to come, and they would be heavy. By making the money go round the Government was keeping the country in a sound position and giving employment for everybody. "The Primo Minister seoms to have lost control of himself," said the Leader of tho Labour Party (Mr. H. JS. Holland), who added that the Prime Minister had inaccurately stated that all the men affected by tho present amendment were single men. There were thousands of married men on Public Works who would be affected. Further thero was a large number of casual workers on the- railways working on £4 0s Sd per woek. The amendment not only safeguarded the men on £.190, but also the men above that salary, because it meant that the first £190 would be exempt. The Prime Minister should recognise the principle :of placing the taxation on the shoulders of thoso best able to bear it. The Government stood pledged against, wage reduction. It was open to the members of tho Government to change their viewpoint, but when they did this they should have gone back to the country for a mandate from the people. The people demanded something better than that from Parliament. Mr. Semple had never delivered a speech that savoured so much of tho soap-box as that just, delivered by Mr. Forbes. Mr. E. M'Keen (Labour, Wellington South) declared that anyone who opposed the exemption of men earning £190 was taking advantage of the women and children. He asked if it •was proposed to increase pensions as wages were reduced, and he predicted that a large sum would have to bo provided for family allowances to moot increased claims. BETTER A CLOWN THAN A BOOTLACE. Mf. M'Dougall rose to reply to a reference to himself by Mr. Semplo as a "political clown." "Tho hon. member chucks off about clowns," said Mr. M'Dougall. "I would rather be a clown than a human bootlace." (Laughter.) j.t appears to mo that anyone who supports the cuts is regarded as an enemy of tho Civil Service. (Labour "Hear, hears.") "I deny the charge. lam just as friendly to tho workers as any moinber of the Labour Party. (Labour dissent.) Lot them como down to Mataura and say what they like. I havo been 47 years there, and I challengo any Labour member to come down and unseat M'Dougall. It is most peculiar that tho member for Wellington East can never get up to speak but what he tries to misrepresent some ono and throw all tho dirt he can." Mr. Chairman: "Order! You must withdraw that." Mr. M'Dougall: "I withdraw it, sir." Mr. C. Can- (Labour, Tiniaru): "A bootlace is a bootlace, but it might be sufficient to whip a clown with. The Government has fouled its own nest, and is now complaining about the unhealthy . conditions," said Mr. Carr. Later "he said that the Government had committed political hara kiri and was endeavouring to make a hero of itsolf. its policy was rapacious, inhuman, mid unjust, j Mr. W. 10.'.Biiniiird (Labour, Napier), refuting the clmigc. by (he Prime Minister that the Labour members were irresponsible, said that the members of the party had the fullest responsibility, of the duty-to those who had elected them. It! might, not: bo long!

, before the Labour Party would have ,to take up the responsibility of Government. ALTOGETHER TOO HARSH. Mr. D. G. Sullivan. (Labour, Avon) said that 10 per cent, of £190 a year was about 7s Gd.a week, and he appealed to tho Government to allow thoso on that salary mark to retain tho amount of tho proposed cut. The reduction was unfair, unreasonable, and altogether too harsh. Mr. 11. T. Armstrong (Labour, Christchureh East) saii'l that if Mr. M'Dougall had been consulted a month ago lie would have told a different story. The reduction was not 10 per cent., but 20 per cent, of the worker's spendif* power. Irreducible charges, such as rent, mortgage interest, and principal, insurance, etc., composed almost half of the worker's earnings. The amendment was defeated by 42 votes to 30. ALL BASIC WAGE WORKERS. The next amendment came from. Mr. J. O'Brien (Labour/ Wostland), who sought to exclude from the cut all those on the basic wage of £4 0s 8d per week and under. If the cost of living did not come down, then all thoso on the basic wage would suffer extreme hardship. The basic wage was the minimum on which a man could provide his wife and family with the necessities of life. It had been very carefully computed, and if it was reduced tho'effect would bo serious. Discussion on Mr. O'Brien's amendment proceeded for about an hour, when the Prime Minister rose and moved "That the question be now put"—the first application of the closure. After some excitement (referred to under a separate heading), the closure motion was carried by 48 votes to 26. A few minutes later, after points of order had been settled, Mr. O'Brien's amendment suffered defeat by .46 votes to 29. The public galleries were crowded when the House resumed at 7.30 p.m. It was announced by tho Chairman of Committees that tho amendments to clause 2 would be put in rotation, and tho House settled down to a scries of divisions, tho bells ringing almost continuously for an hour and three-quar-ters. The result was tho rejection by, slightly varying majorities of all the amendments. The greatest number of "captures" to the Labour proposals was eleven. "You have your marching orders, the gallant colonel is in front," commented Mr. IT. Langstono (Labour, Waimarino), as the Hon. A. X Murdoch and Colonel T. W. M'Donald walked across together to the "No" lobby on ono of the divisions. There was a loud cry of "No" from the Labour benches when the question that "Clause 2 stand part of the Bill" was put at 9.15. The division resulted ir the retention of the clause by 49 votes to 24. The voting on the main amendments was as under: £180 exemption, 45-29; £170, 45-30 ; £160, 42-30; £150, 42-30; "graduated scale," 43-31; "tribunal," 47-25; exempting pensions, 49-26; exempting bonuses, 49-24. APPLICATION OF "CUT." Speaking on clause 3, Mr. P. Frascr (Labour, Welliugtou Central) smilingly remarked that considerable progress had been made that evening. In fact, thoro had been one long progression, and he thought the House was ready to settle down to a calm and not too hasty examination of the clause. (Laughter.) He would liko to see the Speakers of both Houses placed on tho samo basis as Judges of: tho Supreme Court. Ho was not suggesting that Judges of tho Supremo Court should be exempt from the cuts, but he understood there was some constitutional objection to Parliament reducing the salaries of actual occupants of the office. However, he intended to move later that the cuts should bo made to apply to tho office of Judge and not to the occupants of the office. Mr. Munro urged that casual employees of the State should not come under the provisions of the Act, as many of them were not, getting anything like an adequate wage. The same remark applied to teachers. "I am afraid that our now Standing Orders are going to bo marching orders," said Mr. M'Keen, who referred to the exemption of Judges of the Supreme Court, and was called to order sharply by the Chairman. "Surely, 5' said Mr. M'Keen, "I am allowed to refer to those who are not included. The Chairman: "Order! I have given niy ruling.'' Mr. M'Keon: "Very well. I suppose that is another form of the gag.'' Reform members: "Sit down." The Chairman: "The honourable member must withdraw." Mr. M'Keen bowed to the ruling of tho Chair. Kef erring to heads of Departments, Mi-. M'Keeh stated that on a previous occasion, when salaries were reduced, increases in remuneration wero subsequently granted those officers which more than compensated for the cuts. He did not object to regular promotion, but he did resent heads, who had "got tho ear of a Minister," receiving substantial bonuses. The Prime Minister replied that even after the present; cut had been made, the ordinary scale increases would go on to every man in the Service, tho lower-grade as well as the higher-grade officers. Did the Labour Party desire the Government to stop the scale increases? Mr. M'Keen: ""We don't wish to do that." Mr. \V. J. Jordan (Labour, Manukau) made a plea for members of tho High Commissioner's staff, who were working very efficiently and for long hours. They would not enjoy the reduction in the cost of living which Mr. Forbes anticipated would be brought about. MINISTERS' ALLOWANCES. Mr. Armstrong said tho Primo Minister had refer; sd to scales, but there were a lot of fish in the Public Sen-vice who had no wales. (Laughter.) Uc made Hie point; thsit if a graduated scale of reductions hud i> C cn agreed upon, Ministers would have suffered to a greater extent than, members of Parliament. That, however, was perlinps tlic reason for tho United approval of Cabinet for the flat rate pnipussil. lie

considered Ministers could stand a cut of 20 per cont. In addition to their salaries they received "porks" in the j shape of travelling expenses which had not been interfered with by the legislation. Mr. Semple: "They will travel more to make up the 10 per cent." Tho Chairman: "Order! Order!" Mr. W. Nash (Labour, Hutt) also referred to tho question of Ministers' ssiliirips, and quoted the Minister of Railways as having complained in 1922 that thoro was no equality of sacrifice botwoeu members and Ministers. POSITION OF RAILWAYMEN. The Loader of Hie Opposition (the Right Hon. J. G. Coates) invited the Prime Minister to accept an amendment enabling the Second Division of the' Railway Department to enter into au agreement with flic General .Manager as to the method of the application of the cut, as had been done in 1921-22. Mr. M'lvoon: "Are you moving tho amendment?" Mr. Coates: "I am asking the Prime Minister to accept it. Mr. Parry: "And if ho does not1?" Mr. Coates: "Ho is a reasonable man, and if the amendment is accepted I think wo will get further ahead." Mr. Parry: "Since when did you expect that?" Mr. Coates: "I hope the Prime Minister is a reasonable man; we'll see." Mr. Carr favoured a reduction m the salary of the High Commissioner. He moved as an amendment that the Bill should not apply to Civil servants in receipt of less than £300. The Chairman disallowed the amendment on the ground that a similar amendment had already boon expressly negatived. Tho Prime Minister said ho knew the hard work done by the start of the High Commissioner's oißcc. However, it was a case of general sacrifice, and no exceptions could bo made. Regarding Mr. Coates's proposal, Mr. Forbos said he had been informed- by the Minister of Railways that, the amendment was quite workable, (ux'l had proved, satisfactory previously. "I havo no objection," ho added, "to accepting it'on tho clear understanding that the Minister of Finance determines whether the arrangements made provide the full 10 per cent, the rest of the Service has been called upon to carry." The Prime Minister appealed to.members not to waste time on clause 3, but to reserve discussion for the clauses dealing with, tho main purposes of tho legislation. "I think we ought to know exactly what it is tnat the Prime Minister and the Leader of tho Opposition. have agreed to," said Mr. Howard, in referring to the amendment proposed by Mr. Coates. "It is obvious that the two gentlemen have reached an agreement." Mr. Frasor moved for the insertion of a new clauso providing for the application of the cut to persons appointed to the position of Judge of the Supremo Court when such an appointment was made. It was not competent for Parliament to reduce the salaries of Judges, but it was competent for Parliament to reduce the . salary attached to the office. The salaries of the present Judges would not be affected, said Mr. Frascr. The amendmont was ruled out of order. THE GUILLOTINE AGAIN. The closure had its second application at 11.15 p.m., when the Prime Minister moved that the question "bo put" after Mr. H. E. Holland had moved the deletion of one of tho subclauses with the object of' exempting Public servants from the operation of the cut. It was ruled by the Chairman of Committees that the matter had been dealt with fully previously, and he considered the question should bo put. By 47 votes to 25, the House agreed to the closure motion. Mr. Holland's proposal was rejected by 48 vote's to 24, and other amendments seeking to exempt specified and unspecified employees wore similarly dealt with. The Leader of the Opposition's amendment was carried on the voices, and the clause was passed by 48 votes to 22. APRIL THE FIRST. "A point of order, Mr. Chairman," said Mr. Armstrong, immediately after, the vote was announced. "It's just after 12 o'clock, and it's April Fool's Day. I wonder if they are all hero." (Laughter.) Dealing with clauso 4 (exempting the 'Governor-General and persons employed for a limited period under contract), Mr. W. E. Barnard (Labour, Napier) mado a special plea for Civil sorvants in the earthquake area. They had already suffered very materially, and were worthy of exemption for at least twolve months. The Prime Minister said a great number of tho Civil sorvants .had been transferred, but the Government would bo pleased to deal with any special eases. Captain H. M. Rushworth (Country Party, Bay of Islands) moved that married men in receipt of £300 per annum or less, and whose wives were not employed for gain should bo exempted. Tho amendment was defeated by 43 votes to 24. Mr. Fletcher sought to exempt all married male servants of the Crown in receipt of £260 per annum or less whose wives are not employed for gain. He said that this was the £5 a week level, and a reduction in salary might mean that the children would not bo able to continue their education. The amendment was negatived by 46 votes to 26. GOVERNOR-GENERAL'S OFFER. Mr. Frasor said that he did not see why the Governor-General should be exempted, although it was quite true that he had offered in an undue public way to forego 10 per cent, of his salary, apparently in order that tho Prime Minister's policy might be popular1. This meant that the Governor-General was prepared to give up £750 out of £7500, which he would not miss. However, tho charwomen would bo seriously affected, and ho moved that they be exempted from tho provisions of tho Bill. Tho cut meant that thoy would bo reduced from £2 0s 4d to £1 ISs, and these women, wore struggling hard to earn, a livelihood. Ho realised that ono of tho reasons the Governor-General had been, excluded from the Act was that tho decision would have to receive the assent of the King. CLOSURE EFFECTIVE. .The Prime Minister said that it was only by applying the closure that progross could bo made, and he moved that the question bo put. Mr. Langstone: "Monstrous!" The closure was agreed to by 38 votes to 24. An amendment to exempt charwomen from the provisions of the Bill was defeated by 38 votes to 25. The clause was retained by 42 votes to 22. At 1 a.m., Mr. Armstrong moved to report progress on tho ground that thoy had been sitting for long hours, and members were in nood of sleep. He was supported by Mr. J. O'Brion (Labour, Westland), who said if members did not havo a rest tempers would become frayed, and they would have a nasty feeling in tho House. The motion was defeated by 44 voles to 24. AN ELECTION ISSUE? Mr. Si.'iiiplc. moved ;iu ;iinfudiiu.-nt with Ilio object of. postponing .thu cuts until December. Tho Labour Party dosired, ho .said, that cuts should not oporntf! until after Iho General Election, so I hat Iho pfloplo of New Zealand should hnvo an opportunity of saying

whether tlio Government's wage-reduc-ing policy was acceptable to tliom or not. Mr. Jordan said at a public meeting at Whangarei a motion had boon carried unanimously opposing the cuts and expressing the opinion that the Government's policy should bo made an issue at an election. Mr. Sullivan said the Government | had no mandate from tho electors to put its wage-reducing policy into effect. "Of course, we aro beating the air," said Mr. Sullivan, "for the Government is not game to allow an election to be fought on this issue." At tho request of tho Chairman, Mr. Sullivan withdrew tho words "not game," and said the Government, was most unwilling to risk an election at the present juncture. ■ { "Tt would take more than tho intcs-] tinal fortitude of a whitebait to facts an election at present," declared Mr. LiingstoiHl, amidst laughter. ' Tho Minister of Agriculture (the. Him. A. J. Murdoch) asked whether; the language was permissible. The . Deputy Chairman (Mr. W. J. Broadfoot), asked for a withdrawal of tho words. Mr. Langstone: "I was not referring, to the Government; I was referring to the whitebait," (Laughter.) The amendment was lost by 44 votes. to 22. GRADUATED REDUCTIONS. Mr. W. Nash moved that the cuts-; be levied on the following sliding! scale: Over £3000, 33 1-3 per cent; from £1900 to £3000, 25 per cent.; £1200 to £1900, 20 er cent.; £950 to £1200, 17J per cent.; £700 ' tO--£950, 15 per cent.; £400 to £700, 124 per cent.; £250 to £400, 10 per cent. He said that this scale would be more in keeping with equality o'.t' sacrifice than tho flat-rate cut. The scale would bring in between £SOO,OOfI and £900,000, which was less than ttus Prime Minister wished for, but tlue money could be made up from other sources. Tho amendment was defeated by 43. votes to 21. Another sliding scale was put forward by Mr. J. T. Hogan (Independent, Eangitikei),' who moved that tho following scale be adopted: 7} per cent, of the rates where tho salary is £217 aaid over, 10 per cent, where tho salary is £390 and over, and 15 per cent, where the salary is £824 and over. He said that this was another attempt to protect tho lowor paid men. The reductions, according to this scale, would bring in over £1,000,000, which was surely enough to derive from one source. The amendment was lost by 42 rotes to 22. Mr. Howard moved that the 10 per cent, reduction shall not apply so as to reduce the total salary or wages below £150 per annum. The amendment was lost by 35 votes to 24. - MARRIED AND SINGLE. Mr. Sullivau moved another provision that in tho caso of married men, or others with dependants the 10 per <ient. cut shall not apply so as to reduce- the total salary or wages paid to below £250 per annum. Mr. Sullivau said that the proviso was designed to give protection to married men or those with dependants. Mr. Armstrong said that he did not believe in the differentiation between married and single moil, but as this amondment would apply to State, employees there was not the danger or single men displacing married meai. The proviso was lost by 33 votes to 24. It is a rule of tho House that all tho members in the Chamber must vote, but when this division was taken two member who were sleeping' did not budge. Mr. Eraser moved a further proviso that in tho case of married men and others with dependants the 10 por cent, cut shall not apply so as to reduce tho total salary or wages below £4 per week. This was also lost by 38 votes to 24. Mr. Savage moved a further amendment to provide that employees with a salary below ■ £300 with one child should suffer a cut of 7i por cent.; with two children, 5 per cent.; with-three children, 2$ per cent.; and with more than throe children no doduction. r> Savago said tho proposal was identical with that suggested by Mr. Coates. Mr. Armstrong asked how it was that the Opposition could make a proposal ono day and then vote against it the next. It did not seem that members were taking their work' soriously. ' Mr. J. A. Young (Reform, Hamilton) : "Come to a vote and find ant." Mr. Ooates: "You are making us dizzy." (Laughter.) Mr. D. Jones (Reform, Mid-Canter-bury) said he largely supported tbe proposal contained in the amendment. The Reform Party, however, had accepted tho Prime Minister's offer of atribunal. The amendment was defeated by 36 votes to 26. Mr. Martin moved a further amendment that the reductions should be deferred until there had been, a corresponding fall in tho cost of living. Tho amendment was defeated by 3S votes to 25. A further amondment by Mr. M'Combs that the 10 per cent, reduction should not apply to wages below £210 per annum was rejected by 37 votes to 25. OVERTIME RATES. Mr. Carr moved to ensure that overtime rates in the Public-- Service should be according to awards of the Arbitration Court. Mr.. O'Brien said that it was particularly drastic when the Go-vernment decided to cut overtime rates by_ 10 per cent. Nobody wanted overtime, and there was no reason for it in view of the fact that there were over 30,000 men out of work. The amendment was negatived by 42 votes to 18. RENT AND BOARDING ALLOWANCES. Mr. Jordan moved to delete a subclause which read: "Where any part of the salary of any person consists of board or lodging, or the use of a house or quarters, the total amount by which his salary is reduced shall bo deducted from moneys payable to him in respect to such salary.'" -He said that in many cases this clause would moan that Hie total reduction would be more than 10 per cent. Mr. Eraser said that the clause was particularly inequitable. If a Civil Servant received £300 por annum aud a house at an annual rental of £50, he would bo reduced by £35, which meant that his money wages would be reduced by nearly 12 per cent. "Can tho clause bo justified.l" asked Mr. Fraser. Mr. Forbes: "Yes." Mr. Fraser said that it would bo better to separate tho amount paid for rent or board and lodgings from the monetary salary. If rents or board were reduced, the money paid for these allowance could be reduced. Mr. O'Brien said that in some cases £50 was allocated for house allowance, whereas a Government official often had to pay double that amount. The 'clause was "putting the boot in." By 40 votes to 20, the House decided that tho clause should stand. At this stage most of the Ministers in the Chamber did not trouble to go into tho lobbies and two ny threo others failed to record their votes. Mr. M'Keen moved to delete the provision for reduced grants to education Ijicii-fls, university colleges, and other educational institutions. UNEMPLOYED TEACHERS. Air. M'Keen said Micro were ovrrlOU school teachers unemployed in Wellington and a number whose- work was nil.ioi.ierl. The Clerk of the Hour© .had received applications from a man with