REFORM V. LABOUR

Evening Post, Volume CIX, Issue 123, 27 May 1930, Page 10

REFORM V. LABOUR

POLITICAL DEBATE

SOCIALISATION ATTACKED

ME. ERASER IN DEFENCE

Swords were crossed in political dobate at the Trades Hall last night between Mr. A. E. Mander, secretary >i the Reform League, aud Mr. P. Fraser, secretary of the Parliamentary Labour Party. Mr. Mander took tho initiative in the motion "That tho Policy of tho Labour Party is Detrimental to New Zealand." Mr. J. O. Johnson presided over a large audience.

Mr. Mandcr opened by pointing out o.'isentials in which the Labour and Kcform Parties differed, and went on to refer to tlio main clash as between the two .parties. The main objects of the Reform Party woro to develop in the people initiative, self-reliance, resourcefulness, thrift, foresight, and the habit of doing ones-utmost at one's work.' Ho believed the whole trend of Labour policy was to undermine those qualities. Labour wished the State to take over more and more the control of industry' and of responsibility for the lives of all the people. Every item' of Labour's policy seemed to bo designed to destroy all incentive for the development of "the qualities he referred to. In recent years, the policy of the Labour Party had been watered down until it was impossible to say where tlio party now stood. Did it still adhere to socialisation? He challenged Mr. Fraser to say what exactly they meant by socialisation, and what attitude they took up regarding. Customs 'duties. The Labour manifesto was deliberately worded in vaguo and meaningless terms which committed the party to nothing. In regard to defence, Mr. Holland had recently stated that Labour's -policy would bo framed according to circumstances when Labour came into office. Labour had no land policy of its own. "Every sentence," ho declared, "is cribbed word for word from the Reform Party's, manifesto of 1925." Mr. Mander went ■on to berate Labour members who denounced the mortgage arfd the interest system, and asked how it was proposed to replace them. '"I deliberately charge the Labour Party," ho said, "with expressing itself iv vague and ambiguous terms and evading all definite issues simply so that for engineering purposes it may be all things to all men. I charge the average Labour Party speaker with telling a different talo according to the particular audience before him at the moment. ... I charge the Labour Party with exploiting every , grouse, every grievance, every bit of envy .and jealousy they can como across in any disgruntled individuall or section. of society, and with being willing to make any promise,' however reckless, wild, extravagant, or impossibles it. may be." ' ■ NO REAL CHARGES. In rebuttal, Mr. Fraser said he failed to sco that any charges had been made; apart from clpubts which had been cast on the honesty and integrity of members of the Labour Party he could not see where there was anything real to reply to. Mr. 'Mander's speech indicated that he lacked-tho .faculty of clear thinking, <md he had indulged iv very .wild assertions. As to the definition of Socialism, Mr. Fraser quoted from Bernard Shaw, a sixth standard reader, and a booklet, .written by Mr. Mander himself. If Mr. Mander believed in' private enterprise, how could he: believe in a, people's Commonwealth in which all the resources of civilisation -. would lao utilised for the general good, as expressed by him in his pamphlet? ; The statement about the cribbing of Labour's land policy was wrong. On the other hand, ev'orytl ing the Reform Party had 'done that was any good had been by" the adoption of principles arid ideas put forward by the Labour Party. If the Reform Party .was anti-socialistic, would it interfere with all the existing social institutions? What 01 of them would Mr. Mander dd* away with'? In regard to Labour's defence policy, Mr. Fraser -maintained that it was a common-sense one. Replying to another point, he said that finance was too important to be. in private hands; tho country would have to realise that and take control of the whole credit system. "If there could bo any greater, fallacy ever' foisted on a people," ho said, "it is the idea tli.it more production is going necessarily to raise the standard of living of the masses of the people. The Labour Party does not say we don't need more production. Of course, we tlo. .. . But with more production alone, how can there bo any improvement .in tho standard of 'living of the people?" The speaker said he could quote-figures to show that despite enormously increased .production wages had decreased, and there was more unemployment. Labour was neither a protectionist nor a free, trade party. As a socialist party it aimed at enabling every man woman, and child to be decently housed, fed, and clothed and to have a real opportunity in life. In conclusion, Mr. Fraser quoted another statement by Mr. Mander, referring to tho Reform Party, that "these are such as have a-vested interest in preserving things as they are, and are hirelings and dupes." ,' * HIS OPINION CHANGED. Replying; Mr. Mander said ho regretted that Mr. Fraser, had descended to personalities. "I am not the slightest bit ashamed," he said, "that' for a couple of years I was a member of tho Labour Party just after the war: Mr. Fraser has quoted from something I .wrote, at that time. I javo changed my opinion on political matters, as I studied a little more deeply and got more ill touch with realities." . Mr. Mander flatly denied that Reform stood for preserving things as they are. They stood for practical measures for real "progress. Mr. Mander dealt at length with the failure of Labour in England to give effect to its main promise to solve unemployment, and pointed out that there wero now half a million more unemployed at Homo than when the ' Labour Government - came into office. . . ■

Mr. Frascr contended that Mr. Mander had failed to deliver his promised attack on-the Labour Party's objectives.' Ho quoted from Ket'orm election manifesto's to show that the Keform Party liad not fulfilled all its promises.' He said' ho was sorry ho had personally hurt Mr. Mander, and added that he had been offended by the charge that the Labour Party "had misled the people and had been'dishonest towards the electors. Not in the slightest degree had Mr. Mander weakened the Labour' Party's arguments or shown where its proposals were wrong. It was for the people to judge. /Every plank in'tho platform of the Labour Party was intended to. be a step on-wards-towards tho ultimate goal of the party —Socialism. In conclusion, Mr. Mander declared that his adversary had evaded the charges made. Referring to tho advocacy of tho socialisation of the means of production, ho said the Labour Party seemed to have a touching faith in tho ability of the State to do all things.. The speakers were accorded a hearty vote of thanks.