FIRST ATTACK

Evening Post, Volume CV, Issue 151, 30 June 1928, Page 10

FIRST ATTACK

RELIEF RATES OF PAY ASSAILED BY LABOTJK >'S UNEMPLOYMENT DEBATE ""'■ ■ Parliament has lost no lime in getting- into its stride insofar as '•-*'■''- . prolonged debates are concerned, '}■' ■'for ■ the House of Representatives r 'spent ' yesterday's sitting—the second one of the session—from shortly before 3 p.m. until 2.30 ' "a.m. to-day in discussing the sub- '■ .ject of unemployment. The Gov- ■ ernment's relief policy was assailed - "-, from the Labour Opposition ben ■ '•■ ches, the' attack being initiated by "*»'■ Mr. M. J. Savage (Auckland West), * : who moved an amendment when an ; ■ Imprest Supply Bill was introduced i- -; expressing the strongest disap- '■':■ ,'proval of the Government's in- ' capacity and neglect to deal adequately with the unemployment problem. The amendment further invited the House, to condemn the Government for taking advantage of the helpless position of the' un- ■ .employed to reduce wages by pro- • - fessedly fixing the rate of pay for" .. < men. on relief works at 9s per day > j for single men and 12s per day for ..-. married men, thus lowering the I. workers' standard of living; also 1., for having failed to pay to relief . workers "even the totally made,- --.... qnate minimum wage promised." . The amendment" was defeated by 40 votes' to 14, but before the House adjourned it passed a Bill extending for a year the operation , ,of the Local Authorities Empowering (Relief of Unemployment) Act, .;. , 1926, and increasing the subsidies . payable on relief works from „... £150,000 to £300,000. '•■" Continuing the debate after "The . , Post"-went to press, Mr. H. T. Armfitrong (Christchurch East), who seconded the amendment, remarked that 'the uriempldyment problem . had been neglected by tho Government all too ;- long. The Government had been shut- .«• ting its eyes to tho question. He was ■>- convinced tKat if the Government was ~'allowed to continue on its present n' ' the country would go from bad J;'. to-worse. The number of men unemployed was much larger than was geh- ' 'ierally: thought, and he was convinced ;i?'.that the Prime Minister did not realise = ,how serious the position was. There ir were thousands of women and thousands of boys who were finding difficulty in securing employment. Mr. Armstrong contended that the Gov- '. ernmout should ease up so far as the literature 'which was being sent Home ■ was concerned. There could bo no •'■ ' doubt that tho Government was to blame for the present position. ':' The Minister of Lands (the Hon. A. D. M'Leod): "I suppose all other Gov- '"' ernments in the British Empire are responsible for the unemployment in their : ' country too." 'Mr. Armstrong: "I know what "the 'Minister is referring to. There are ■ some States where they have Labour Governments, but in none of those States is unemployment so serious as ..it is here." '■! -Reform members: "Oh, oh!" Mr. Armstrong: "In not one of those "" States are workers receiving charitable aid. They get the benefits of unein- • ployed insurance, to which they tliem- '" selves contribute.'' Mr. Armstrong condemned the Government's action in offering 12s and 9s a day, characterising the action as a deliberate attempt to lower the standard of living of the workers. Dealing with the co-opera-tive system of employment, Mr. Armstrong declared that there were few, if any, parties working in New Zealand . who knew what the contract, price for' '"' their job was. The men were not paid by results, very largely for the reason' that thoy were asked to work with out-of-date implements. Concluding, Mr. ' Armstrong expressed the view that the country would bo in a very much worse position to-day if it had not been for the relief that had been provided by ■ local bodies. Ho'thought tho Govern- ' ment might consider granting a more liberal subsidy to local bodies than it ■, had done in the "past. ,•!.■'.' CO-OPERATIVE CONTRACTS. ""' 'The-'Leader of the National Party (Mr. G. W. Forbes) said it wasKto be expected, owing to tho prevalence of ; unemployment, that the subject would '„ . come up early"in the session. He had • recently been in Auckland, where he ■had seen such evidences of acute dis- _ tress that anyone would have had a .heart of stone were he not moved by The bringing out of large numbers . "of immigrants had increased the Government'a responsibility in dealing with the, matter. He believed that men ;;, could be employed on full wages in ;!,'making the roads safe. That was an •^urgent matter. He thought that good -■'"'could come out of the co-operative con-;.;-tract system, but to that the Prime Minister would only retort, '' That was ■..-in the old Liberal days." ■ .Mr. H.: Atmore (Nelson): "Ho was "elected as a Liberal." Mr. Forbes said a rate should be fixed ■' for co-operative contracts and men be encouraged to make as much as possible on them. In some cases the rate ; ''had been fixed too low. Nothing was '.'"to be gained by the Government in °."keeping the rate of pay below what was ■■■.: a fair-thing. Where men were poorly ' .Jiaid they would not "put their backs ' into their work." Tho Government :. .should pay a fair rate of pay for a fair ■ 'day's work. As long as the local bodies employed men on essential public works, then the Government should be i, as liberal as possible in regard to subsidies. : After all, the test of a country 'a soundness and prosperity was the number of its unemployed. He hoped believed that the large amount of. money which had come into the hands of the farmers as a result of better prices would circulate for the benefit of the Dominion. He would; not say the Government was doing nothing—it was spending a. great deal of money—but the expenditure was not meeting the •■. whole of the position. Afforestation would serve to absorb many men, and ' the standard rate of wages could be paid without the risk of incurring loss. . " OTHER SIDE TO PICTURE. '' , The Prime Minister (the Right Hon. J. G. Coates) said that there was another side fo the picture. He wanted v to know whether Mr. Forbes wanted men on relief works to receive standard .. rates. ;. Mr. Forbes: "I support tho contract : system." Mr. Coates said that in no sense1 had the Government indicated that'unemployed relief works were works on which standard rates should be paid. They wore in many cases works that would not have been dono for years to come in normal times. He denied that the Government had reduced the '■ rates of pay. The Government in 1919 and 1920 had improved the position on public works. Eelief Work .. was intended to carry men over a-tem- . porary difficulty. If they paid standard rates, instead of employing 12,500 men on relief works, the Government would have to provide funds to absorb 20,000 men. If they made it easy for men ■to throw up their ordinary work to go bri to public works, then that would coriainly; happen. The Government's

niothod of dealing with the problem was tho only practical one. Men employed ■W public works prrmancntl." need have no fear us to th = future, for tn'-ey would be kept on in tho same manner as formerly. Mr.-Armstrong.had said that he believed in payment by »rosults, and that engineers measured up jobs and told men how much they were ontitled to get. He knew of no such method, and if it were applied, then it was applied wrongly, i'he principle followed on public works contracts was much on tho lines of that advocated by Mr. Forbes: tho price agreed on at the start was adhered to throughout. In reply to questions, Mr. Coates said that on relief contracts no reductions were made until the end of a contract. It was difficult to say when a contract should end, but it was often necessary to re-distribute the.personnel of tho gangs according to the nature of the work to be done. The Prime said that ho would produce figures which he submitted would show that there was another side to the picture than that which had been painted. Mr. W. E. Parry (Auckland, Central): "Bo you think the 0s should bo the minimum?" SPECIMEN EARNINGS. Mr. Coates quoted lists of figures showing .that in various parts of-1 the country men were earning on the average, not 9s or 12s a day, but consider-' ably more than those rates. Some "of the figures Air. Coates supplied were as follows:—Group of four married men, lGs; single men, 10s 4d, 10s lOd, 10s 8d; married men, 11s 3d; 19s 4d, 11s sd, 16s Bd, 13s, 18s 4d, 18s 9d, 18s lid; single men, 14s 3d, 11s 3d, 12s 4d, 9s 7d, Ss. 6d, 18s, ISs lOd, 17s lOct. Those wore average daily earnings right through. Mr. P. Fraser (Wellington Central): "Eight or 8i hours a day?" The Prime Minister; "Slightly over eight hours." Mr. Fraser: w'ls it the average for six days?" Mr. Coates: "That is the fairer method of putting it." Mr. W. A. Veiteh (Wanganui): "Can you givq us a reliable average for a group of eight men1?" Mr. Coates: "It. is safe to say that the average is far above 12s for married men and far above 9s for singlo men. It is a Jong way above the minimum rate of pay." In the Auckland district married men had earned £1 4s 3d.N Mr. Parry: "Why should you pay a man 4s Cd or Cs 6AV Mr. Coates: "The point is that he has taken a contract at that rate." Mr. Parry: "It is not a contract; it is a piecework job."' Mr. D. G. Sullivan (Avon): "Tho Minister of Public Works stated last session that the men would be put on day work. Is that done?" .Mr. Coates: "I believe so"" So far as the relief works were concerned, both he and the Minister of Public Works had laid it down time and time again that the men who were' not used to hard work must bo given a chance to get fit. Tho instructions wero that these men must bo given the benefit of the doubt in. computing the value of 'their work. It was no satisfaction to tho Government if men were not given a chance to get used to the work. Such men had difficulties enough without the Governmnt increasing them. There were men who.never would make navvies, but for all that they must be given a chance. They wanted men to be paid for what they did, but in the initial stages they must be given the benefit of the doubt. Mr. Parry: "But they don't tender. The price is fixed by the Department. That is piecework, it is not a contract." Mr. Coates: "In the Public Works Department co-operative contract means not only piecework, but contract, too—a bargain made between the engineer and the men." As long as the rate earned' was above a certain amount no complaint was made. A .man earning above14s or 15s a day was a good man, but one not able to earn that, was unable to shift a similar amount of stuff. Mr. Parry: "The State should be a model employer." Mr. Speaker: "J am afraid the hon. gentleman is inclined to ■ argue the point." Mr. Coates, in conclusion, said the' figures he had quoted related to co-oper-ative contracts and wero not day wages 'at all. Men wore earning on the average not 9s or 12s per day, but considerably more than that, NOT A REASONABLE STANDARD. The Leader of tho Opposition (M.. H. E; Holland) said the Prime Minister had made no answer to tho statements which had been made by the mover of the amendment. The Government had laid it down that married men were to receive 12s a day and single men 9s a .day, but the position was that the men were not receiving those amounts. The Prime Minister, with few exceptions, had quoted cases of men who were receiving fairly good wages. There were a number of married men who were not receiving sufficient to keep themselves let alone their wives and children. He resented any suggestion that a large percentage of the men on the relief works were loafers; if they wero, they would choose other forms of employment. There was something wrong with the Government of the country when there were men who were unablo to secure employment. A reasonable standard of living was not being offered to the men,on tho relief works, although it had contracted to do so under the terms of the Peace Treaty. Many of the relief ,-workdrs were not receiving sufficient wages with which to pay their stores account. Workers employed at Lake Waikaremoana, for instance, had discovered that their wages worked out at something like 4s 7d' per working day. Conditions at the camps were far from good, and at .times food supplies wero running very low. Eeturned soldiers were included in those who were suffering from the general unsatisfactory position. At the -Wellington Town Hall the Prime Minister had said that if the returned soldiers would "got into it" they would have the sympathy of the Government and of himself in particular. "Well," sa;l Mr. Holland, "I know three returned soldiers at Lake Waikaremoana who 'got into it,' and I also know that they got out of it." Mr. Holland criticised the Government for paying relief rates on works which were essential in the interests of the country. Mr. W. E. Parry (Auckland Central) traced tho history of the Government's efforts to deal with unemployment since 192G, and contested tho view that the worka on which unemployed were engaged could be described as being of a class that would not have been proceeded with for some time to come lrad tha times been normal. Ho maintained '.'•' the unemployment situation was worse in Auckland to-day than it was eighteen months ago. One of the main causes of the present trouble wa. the fact thaf thousands of people had left the,, rural districts and had concentrated '.- the towns. It was all very well for the Minister of Lands to deny such statements, but the figures—the Government's Own figures —proved they wero correct. NOT MUCH ICE CUT. Tho Minister of Lands (the Hor.. A. D. M'Leod) said he was not going to accuso the Labour Party, of trying to make politico,1 capital. Governments had always been blamed by the Opposition- for unemployment—his own party had dono it in 1908. The present position was an unfortunate one, and it was only natural that the Opposition should take advantage of iL However, ho did not think that tho statements from the Opposition benches cut very much ice. Labour had had a great opportunity of dealing with unemployment in Victoria, but unemployment there to-day was much worse than it was twelve months ago. The Labour

Government was arguing, quite fairly, that it was not to blame for the turn which events had taken Mr, D. G. Sullivan (Avon): "The Hogiiu Government has not reduced the standard of living." The Minister: "I will deal with that." Mr. M'Leod said that many Press reports had been quoted regarding cases of hardship, but he found it difiiault to believe that they were all qu.... accurate. The Minister, said that 21,000 males had entered the country since the war, but that number had not made up for the wastage caused by the war, thereforo it was not correct to blame immigration for the unemployment problem. It was not the duty of the House, said Mr. W. A, Veiteh (Wanganui), after it had found employment for all those who were in need of it, to pay full Arbitration Court wages -to all the men on the relief works. If it did so, it would never get rid of the1 unemployment problem. Mr. D. G., Sullivan (Avon): "Do you approve of 9s a day?" PRESENT BATES TOO LOW. Mr. Veiteh. "1 approve of my own ideas, and I ;.m sure the lion, gentleman will approve of them \yhen 1 have finished." The rates paid at present \\(;re far too low. He would fix them at a moderate amount below the Arbitrafiijjf Court rates, but not nearly so low as they were fixed now. The country should not do anything calculated to create a .permanent unemployed problem, neither should it go to the extremes of economy in the opposite direction as it was doing now. Among the causes of unemployment was.excessive taxation levied to meet the cost of heavy borrowing. They could not simuIrij, prosperity by huge borrowing. The Government was also to blame for "embarking upon Socialistic experiments; it would do well to let private enterprise function again, a it was private enterpr: that-had made the British Empire what it was to-day. In conclusion, Mr. Veiteh stressed the necessity' for on.ouraging the people to invest their savings ir support of the primary indus--tries rather than in motor-cars. Mr. 11. G. It. Mason (Eden) dealt with the Government's immigration policy, and went on to deal with the legislation question. It gave one the blues, he said, to see men hanging around the bureaux with such a depressed outlook on life. He charged the " Government with indifference, which, he said, was evidenced by the absence of anything in the nature of an unemployment insurance scheme being put forward. The influx of labour from the country to the towns was largely responsible for the position of unemployment in the towns, and he suggested that relief could bo effected if t.lic Prime Minister would put into effect the land policy to which he had :of erred in his speech at Morrinsville. A PRACTICAL EFFORT. The Postmaster-General (the Hon. W. Nosworthy) contended that the Go> vernment had made a jjraetical and successful effort to deal with the unemployment trouble. It had given close attention to the problem. He quoted figures showing that New Zealand was in a very favourable position as compared with other countries so far as st -,s of "unemployment-was concerned, li Eussia, the system of which was regarded by the Labour-Socialists as a model of Socialism, and the Government of which, they were told, 'was the most advanced and most progressive in the w.orld, the number of unemployed was recently reported by the London "Tinies" to have increased from 2,000,----000 to 2,500,000. v Mr. Armstrong:' "Maybe they arc having a holiday." Mr. \V. J. Jordan (Manukau): "They arc. as bad off as we are." Mr. Nosworthy said that the \iov\ernment was ready to defend itself, and welcomed.criticism/but it wanted fair criticism and fair comparisons. "I defy members to point out any country to-day," ho said, "which is within coo-oe of the position in New Zealand so far a. unemployment is concerned." 1 Mr. D. G. Sullivan (Avon): ."What about Queensland?" * The Minister asked what either Queensland or New South Wales could show as a result of a Labour Government. The .recent washing up over in Sydney, he said, was an illustration of what went on under a Labour Government. Scandal after scandal was being unravelled there, and they did not know where to begin next in dealing with them. Mr. Nosworthy conded that- the unemployment trouble would disappear when economic conditions abroad changed and effected improvement in the prices of our primary produce. He quoted figures showing that during the last year immigration had decreased by C 8 per cent, as compared with the previous year—7B per cent, decrease in the case of men, 58 $*r cent, in the case of women, and 60 per cent, in the case of children. He advocated thrift on the part of the peoplo in order to prepare for the event of their becon^ng unemployed, and expressed his firm conviction that the country would soon be on the eve of firm and solid prosperity. Constant criticism, constant talk, and constantly drawing attention to the failings of the Government and the general condition of the Government was not the way to remedy present-day troubles. The Government had sought to improve the position of the country and build up on the foundations it had found, and he felt sure that when the election took place, the people would once more reflect their confidence in the Government. Mr. H. .Atmore (Nelson) said tho country 'should be thankful for the Prime Minister's admission at Morrinsvillo that 9s a day was not a wage, but a sustenance allowance for the man who could not get a job. The speaker had come into touch with men on relief Works, but he called them works on which men were not relieved. He had beforo him several pay envelopes, sealed, but with nothing insido. Mr. J. A. Lee (Auckland East): "A practical joke." s Mr. Atmore: "A very cruel joke." There was one case where a man was actually in debt to the cook-house to the extent of 13s for tho month, the not wages being nil. The Prime Minister had not quoted that case. Mr, Coates: "I did quote it." "SUNSHINE OF PROSPERITY." Mr. Atmore: "I'll accept your statement, but nobody appears to have heard it." It was a mockery to the men on .relief works to say, as Ministers had done at smoke concerts and annual Shows, that the country was emerging into the sunshine of prosperity. If that was the ease a little of that sunshine should be allowed to get into the homes of the relief workers, instead of their having to be in debt to tho camp cook-house to the extent of 13s at the end of the month after deductions had been made' from their earnings. Mr. Atmore went into the position of the men employed on the Hope Junction, details of which were recently published in "The Post," and contended that it was never intended that a man should earn more than 12s a day. A letter from tho resident engineer to one of tho dissatisfied men on tho job, which Mr. Atmore read, bore that interpretation, ho maintained. At tho samo time, ho did not blamo ' the engineers, but tho Government which fixed tho policy. A mistako had been made in sending men to the work who were unfitted for the job. 'Mr. Coates: "That is very \ difficult to cvoid." ' ' . Mr. Atnioro said that if a charitable aid 'board could manage the thing properly, then tho Government should bo capabX* of doing better. The Government cculd not divest itself of responsibility. There was plenty of money about —Hi least, tho Government said

there was. The speaker did not agree with Mr. Veitch that Arbitration Court rates should not bo paid. The extremely Koavy debt, and taxation, were 1.1 o causes of unemployment. The Government had been tried and found wanting. Tlie Government would bo judged all right and returned, but not in the direction the Postmaster-General wanted—it would bo returned to Opposition. He had never seen a time in the past thirty years when the farmers —those on ivlioift the Government depended, for it had never had a majority of the townspeople in its favour —were so against the Government. When they heard the president of the Farmers' Union saying that 50 per cent, of the farmers would vote against tho Government, then they could see that the writing was on the wall and that the people intended to put out tho most unsatisfactory Prime Minister the country-had ever had. LABOUR TAKEN TO TASK. Mr. D. Jones (Ellesmcrc) said1 that Mr. Atruore's suggestion that the Government*.would be defeated, and the statement of chu Farmers . Union president that 50 per cent, of tho farmers' would vote against it', were not sup ported by evidence. An attack had been made, ,_ not against the Government, but against the Government's competent Public Works Engineers for dishonestly interpreting the Govern inent's directions. The Labour Government in England four years ago liad failed absolutely to deal with unemployment, which was worse than when the party went out of office' than when it came in. The, same applied to Labour Governments in Australia. The New Zealand Labour Party had no policy for application in New Zealand. Lie suggested that the Labour Party settle down to do its share in relieving unemployment The trouble to-day was duo to the policy of the Labour Party in encouraging the workers to reduce output. The Tact that the Government had come throug' this year with an export surplus was an evidence that tho farmers had been putting their backs into their work and that the Government had been working oil the right lines, it was npt an evidence' that men had been leaving tho land. The Labour Party should got amongst . its own people and point out to them that the farmers had saved tho country, and urge that they do something in the same direction. Some of the Labour members had been writing articles about topdressing and herd-testing. Was it not fair that the Labour members should do some top-dressing and herd-testing on their side of tho business? Mr. Parry: "That's funny, isn't it?" Continuing, Mr. Jones said that boys 'were rinding difficulty in getting position;, as apprentices to-day, all due to conditions which tlio Labour Party had succeeded in getting enforced^ Mr. E. J. Howard (Christchurch South) contended that the Government was wholly responsible for the present' unemployment position. The Minister of Agriculture (the Hon. O. J. Hawken), replying to Mr. Atmore, declared that there were a few gangs of men on public works relief jobs who had been unable to earn, or had not earned, the standard wage. The average rate of earnings, however, was unquestionably higher than the standard laid down. How could it bo said, then, that the engineers had deliberately beaten the men out of their pay? Mr. J. Horn (W.ikatipu) believed that tho Government had clone fairly well in regard to unemployment, and he did not think the amendment was quite justified. The Prime Minister: "Tho Labour Party started an attack, and is on the defence —on the run." Mr. F. N.. Bartram (Grey Lynn) criticised the policy of deducting pay for wet weather on relief works. The Prime Minister: "Deliberately twisting." Mr. Bartram objected to this description of his remarks, and said that the unemployed, instead of having their wages reduced, should be compensated for having to exist under such conditions as obtained on some relief works. NO ASSERTION EEFUTED. ' Mr. P. Frasor (Wellington Central) remarked on the fact that the Minister most intimately concerned —tho Minister of Public Works—had not spoken. Not ono assertion in the amendment had been refuted. Tho Government's pol(icy in regard to unemployment had intensified the situation, and tho Government had failed absolutely to meet the position. The speech of tho Ministor of Agriculture was entirely out of harmony with the references to industrial peace in the Speech from the Throne, and the professions of industrial good feeling made by other Ministers. He demanded to know whose fault it was that in the instances referred to by Mr. Savage relief workers had received a hopelessly inadequate wage after payment .of cook-houso and store charges. Mr. Fraser referred to tho case of a Mons veteran working on relief work at Waikauae who earned 36s a week and" who, after paying his camp expenses, had only 16s to send to his wife and family for them to live on and pay rent Surely such a state of affairs was never contemplated, and he appealed to the House to put an end to it. PREPARED TO INQUIRE. •• The Minister of Public Works (the Hon. K. S. Williams) said that if anyone must take the blame for statements from the Labour benches he would take it; ho would not have it placed on the Public Works engineers. He would be only too glad to inquire into the main questions which had been brought up, and he asked to be informed of the names of the men in whose cases complaint was mado. He was assured that the men were on practically the same kind of work at the same rateof pay, and some were capable of earning more than others. The procedure was followed of. giving the men the opportunity to get into the way of the work before putting them on piecework. In cases of hardship the Department did its best to meet the men. The general • wish of himself and the Department was that the men should be enabled to make tho wage they were sup•posd to draw, and more if they could do it. He invited members to put before him specific complaints, which he would be pleased to investigate. It was difficult to fit all the men info jobs that suited them and on which all could earn the proper amount. Mr. D. G. Sullivan (Avon) acknowledged that tho Minister's statement was a very fair one, but he was afraid that the Government was Very callous about the position. THE DIVISION. Tho House divided on tho amendment at 2:30 a.m., the amendment being defeated by 40 votes to 14, the division list being as follows:— Against the amendment: Bell, Bellringer, Burnett, Campbell, Coates, Dickie, J. MC. 'Dickson, J. S. Dickson, Eliott, Field, Forsyth, Girling, A. Ham-, ilton, Harris, Hawken, Hockly, H. Holland, Hudson, Hunter, D. Jones, W. Jones, Kyle, E. P. Lee, Linklater, Luke, M'Leod, Macmillan, J, Mason," Nosworthy, Pottor, Ransom, Rhodes, F. J. Rolleston, J. C. Rolleston, Samuel, Waito, Walter, Williams, Wright, Young. ■For the amendment: Armstrong, Atmore, Bartram, Fraser, 11. E. Holland, Howard, Jordan, J. A. Lee, M'Koen, Martin, H. G. R. Mason, Parry, Savage, Sullivan. Replying to a question by Mr. Fraser, tho Acting-Minister of Labour (tho Hon. E. A. Wright) said he would consult with the Secretary of tho Labour Department to see if an. improvement could bo effected in accommodation at tho Wellington Registration Bureau when the weather was wet.