MILITARY SERVICE

Evening Post, Volume CIV, Issue 30, 4 August 1927, Page 13

MILITARY SERVICE

BILL FOR REPEAL

A LABOUR EFFORT

HEAVY DEFEAT

The pros and cons of compulsory military training were discussed in the House of Representatives last night on the second reading of the measure by which Mr. J. A. Lro (Auckland East) seeks to repeal the system of compulsory military service. The second reading of the Bill was defeated by 51 votes to IJ.

In moving the second reading,' Mr. J. A. Lee (Auckland East) said he felt that there were many members on the opposite side of the House who secretly shared many of the views which he was about to express. There were many people in the country who were in. support of the proposals contained in the Bill, although he did not expect to receive a very great measure of support in the House. The Bill, said Mr. Lee, would not prevent the Government from carrying on a system of defence with the members of the Permanent Force. Compulsion, he believed, was one of the rickety children of the Imperial Conferences, which were largely representative of the various Tory governments of the Empire. The present Compulsory Service Act had been forced on the Statute Book in the teeth of much opposition, and that opposition continued until the days of the war. In the years following the war the community was so pleased that the sword had been returned to its sheath that it overlooked the fact that compulsory military service still obtained in New Zealand, despite the fact that it had been done away with in many other countries. In the last few years there had been a return in New Zealand to something in the nature of a full programme of training. Mr. Lee said that since compulsion had been in vo°ue in New Zealand £8,000,000 had been spent in that direction, but he doubted very much if the country had received £8,000,000 worth of value. Both parents and trainees looked upon compulsory training as a very disagreeable legal obligation, and that feeling, he considered, was shared by a major portion of the community. Various Churches had protested against compulsion, and there were few people, apart from the jingoes, who said anything in its favour. The professional soldier was not permitted under the Army regulations to criticise the system at present in operation. If it was necessary to train our young men in the art of warfare, could anybody suggest that under the present system that object was being achieved? They were teaching the young men to mark time and form fours, but very little else. The time had gone by wh?n the conntry should spend money on sue!; a system. > DESTROYING INDIVIDUALITY.

It had been claimed that military training made for good citizenship, but the speaker declared that it had the opposite effect. It made the trainee hate the State which forced the obligation on him. During the time tornpulsion had been in operation there had been nearly 50,000 prosecutions for offences under the Act. frequent appearances in Court could not possibly have a beneficial effect on the character of the young men of the country. Sir Bobert Baden Powell regarded compulsory military drill as destructive of individuality.

Mr^V. H. Potter (lloskill): "Did it destroy his individuality?" Another voice: "It has not destroyed yours" (Mr. Lee's). Mr. Lee replied' that it certainly had not destroyed Baden, Powell's individuality, because he was not conscripted, lie had learned, however, to object to boys being drilled by machiue-.like methods. He had pointed out that military drill was a levelling-down process. Mr. Lee expressed the qpinion that physical exercises should take the place of compulsory military drill, in order to improve general physical efficiency. At a time like the present it was. not necessary to impose the military mind upon the youth of the acuntry. Granting that conscription made for efficiency, why should it be employed? Would anyone suggest there was a danger of aggression from Europe? Experts had answered that in the negative.

Mr. G.. R. Sykes (Masterton) "Thanks to the British fleet."

Mr. Lee declared that there was no. danger from China. He believod the idea of compulsory military training waß for the purpose of an expeditionary force, the creation of which brought about the very war it sought to prevent. "We must do what we could to avoid New Zealand being regarded as the "Prussia of the South Seas." The provision* of the military service legislation were not less than they were in 1914; they .were greater. Far from doing our utmost to abolish armaments, we were upholding them. If it was disloyal to abolish conscription, England, Canada, and South Africa were I disloyal, and after the Labour Tarty i in Australia did away with conscription New Zealand would be the sole loyal Dominion. WHAT SUBSTITUTE? The Minister of Defence (the Hon. i P. J. Rolleston) said that many would think Mr. Lee was optimistic in bei lieving that the country was behind the ! abolition of compulsory military tvi.ining. Where was the evidence that that was so? Mr. Lee's speech had not been constructive, but destructive. He had not said what he would put in the place of the present system if it was abolished. Mr. Lee: "Nothing. The Permanent Force will do." To be consistent, Baid Mr. Eolleston, Mr. Lee should advocate the abolition of all forma of defence. lii advocating the volunteer system,. Mr. Lee would still be supporting a military system. The volunteer wont through the same training as the Territorial. One system was just as militaristic as the other. The compulsory system was democratic, whereas the volunteer system waß unfair and undemocratic. The volunteer system had been in foice here, and had produced some splendid companies, but it had! not been sufficient to provide a proper force. In the volunteers a my.n could come and go as he pleased. Mr. Lee was really advocating that we should leave our defence to the other fellow. Was that fair? Mr. J. M'Combs (Lytteltoii): "England has not got conscription." The Minister: "But she has a standing Army." Mr. Lee had criticised the Territorial system of training, but what had his colleague, the Labour member for Manukau (Mr. Jordan) said when he visited Ngaruawahia last ytar? Mr. Jordan had said that everything was satisfactory but the pay. How did that tally with Mr. Lee's statement that the whole of the time of the military forces was taken up in turning and saluting by numbers? Mr. Jordan, too, was a soldier and knew what he was talking about. The view was taken by Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne) that it was wrong in principle to compel young men of alert mind to undergo military training, and he suggested that greater latitude should be allowed for exemptions to boys who were capable of being trained in a very short time if necessity .arose. After the-age-of 18, lads_should

be left freer than they -were at present. If the age limit were reduced there would mean a big saving in cost and no loss of efficiency. He did not object to compulsion in war .time. HEALTH TRAINING. Mr. W. J. Jordan (Manukau) said a lot of complaint had been caused by the rate of pay in camp; if the pay were made adequate, compulsion could be done away with and Territorials would take a keener interest in camp under a voluntary system, and make it an annual holiday. If we were weak in our man-power we would be weak in our defences, therefore the military defences of the country should come under the Minister of Health in the first place, to ensure that the youth of the country was physically fit. If men wanted to rush to" war, let them do so, but don't have it said they were compelled to go! Mr. T. H. Potter (Eoskill) said that the Bill might bo good propaganda from Mr. Lee's point of view, but he ventured to say that 90 per cent, of the people of the Dominion wero bitterly opopsed to any repeal of compulsion. Mr. Potter said that the Labour Party had done little to heli) the Empire during the days of the war, and had cared little for the men at the front. "We will live if you die," had been their attitude. The British nation was the safeguard of the world today, and he deeply regretted that a member of the House had seen fit to disparage the great British Navy. Mr. J. A. Lee: "It took you a long time to get to the front." Mr. Potter: "Pardon me, I joined the seventh reinforcements as a married man. And I had done two and a half years before you were out of your napkins. That was in South Africa." (Hear, hear.) The Labour Party had made much of the money that the war had cost, but what was money as compared with the many lives which had been lost? Britain to-day could afford another war so far as money was concerned, but she could not afford to lose any more lives. He emphatically denied that the boys of New Zealand objected to going into camp. His experience had been all in the opposite direction. Why should Great Britain be the only nation to disarm? asked Mr. Potter. Germany was under compulsion to disarm, but the United States of America wero not. FUTILITY OF WAR. Mr. H. G. R. Mason (Eden) remarked that there was no money for men who were disabled while not endeavouring to kill their fellow men. War was futile. He referred particularly to the Crimea and Gallipoli as cases in point. Standing armies were nothing more than a bad habit. They did not exist years ago, and they were not necessary now. The armaments of war could not secure peace. Preparation for war produced war. Mr. G. R. Sykes (Masterton) criticised some of the arguments of the supporters of the Bill. Mr. H. Atmore (Nelson) said that the Cadets in his district did not object to compulsion, and he bore testimony to the enthusiasm in which they entered oil their training, especially in view of the success which they'had achieved in Cadet competitions. In reply; Mr. Lee said that he probably made more friends over his attitude to compulsory military training than anything else. He was not prepared to say that the patriotism of any nation could be measured by the amount it was prepared to spend on military training. The motion for the second reading was defeated by 51 votes to 11. DRILL NOT UNPOPULAR. The Minister said that in the nine months from Ist June, 1D25, the number of prosecutions for failure to train, in a Territorial Force of over 20,000, was 533, and in the Cadets 149, or a total of 682 out of a total of 50,000 units. Mr. Lee: "Who are we aiming against?" The Minister: "The point I am making is that his allegation that the gen- , oral public are up against this scheme is not borno out by the facts; tho sigj nifieant fact I want, to quote to him is that the number of prosecutions for failure to attend camps in the same period' was three in a force of over 20,000." (Hear, hear.) The experience was that now that the camps had been instituted again the men liked them and looked forward to them. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. H. E. Holland): "You would not say that of the apprentice, would you? I have had numerous representations made to me by the parents." The Minister: "Possibly from the parents or Employers, but not from the apprentice himself." Mr. Holland: "The apprentice that is not bound does not get his wages from the employer." The Minister said Mr. Lee had overlooked the fact that it was because of the Navy that we were immune from attack. Mr. M'Combs: "If it is immune, why the Defence Force?" . The Minister said that was exactly the attitude the Labour Party took up. They said "Let Great Britain defend us and pay for our Navy and defences, and let us do nothing." Mr. Rolleston 1 pointed out that all males in South Africa between the ages of 17 and 21 were liable to undergo four years' compulsory military training, and then be transferred to the reserve. The position in England was quite different because of the Standing Army. It was true there was no compulsion in Canada, but there was an organised military force of considerable size. It was plain, then, that New Zealand did not stand alone. We had an obligation to do our duty as a part of the Empire, and if the Bill passed, New Zealand would practically stand alone in not taking her part in defence of Empire. Mr. H. E. Holland: "What country have you in mind as a prospective enemy?" The Minister: "The lion, member wants me to say Japan, but I won't." Mr. Holland: "Is it Japan or America you have in your mind?" Mr. Rolleston: "It would not make the slightest difference to any other nation on the face of the globe if the Bill were passed. It is entirely a matter of doing our duty and doing'our share in Empire defence." Mr. Eolleston quoted a statement by Dr. Fen wick, of Christehurch, to show the good effects of military training from a physical ana moral "point of view. He was quite certain that tha House would act in conformity with the opinion of 90 per cent, of the people of the country and reject the Bill. . The Prime Minister: "Knock it clean out." . DISOIPLB OF THE KAISER. Mr. H. T. Armstrong (Christehurch East) said that the quotation made by the Minister from the speech of Colonel Fenwiek would be almost identical with a statement made by the Kaiser. (Laughter.) It was the old, old story of militarism. Mr. Armstrong said he believed he loved his country as well as anybody else, but his ideas of patriotism were possibly different from the views of other members of the House. It was not compulsory training that had enabled Britain to hold her own against tho other nations of the world, but it was the fact that the soldiers of Great Britain were not conscripted. There were many boys in New Zealand who dodged military training, but would, if New Zealand were attacked, give just as good an account of themselves as those who had undergone training. Ho objected strongly to the word "compulsion." Mr. J. A. Nash (Palmerston North): "What about dairy control?" Mr. Armstrong said that Bn*ej«r it,

was not necessary in a democratic country for tho minority to fall into line with everything that was decided by the majority. Why had the volunteer system been found wanting in New Zealand? It was because the "jingo" politicians had starved it. Mr. Armstrong went on to say that a man who objected to military training was of very little use in any army; he would never make a soldier, no matter how he was trained. If New Zealand spent less on the comic opera army in New Zealand and more in supporting the British Navy, they would be doing much more for the good of the Empire as a whole than they were doing at present. Despite what the Minister had said, compulsory military training was a dead letter in South Africa; the Act was. not enforced. Much the same applied m the ease of Australia, where many New Zealand boys had taken refuge from the law of their own country. When the war broke out, New Zealand had no difficulty in getting men to go to the other end of tfce world, and compulsion had not been a necessity until towards the end of tho war. New Zealand, declared Mr. Armstrong, was inclined to go military mad, and at the present time they were paying interest on a Dreadnought which was now at the bottom of the sea.