CIVIL ENGINEERS

Evening Post, Volume CVIII, Issue 50, 27 August 1924, Page 9

CIVIL ENGINEERS

REGISTRATION BILL

PROPOSALS DEBATED IN HOUSE

QUALIFICATION QUESTION

■ The Engineers' < Registration ..Bill, which, as' its title signifies, relates, to' the registration of engineers, civil and electrical, was .debated on its second .reading in the House of Representatives

last evening. ,-. ..-.-' ..'. ;. The Minister;of Public Works said the Bill was designed for the purpose, of allowing the engineering profession to register; and .applied' to civil and electrical engineers.,:. Previously it' had been objected that. a /Bill/ of \that*description made it compulsory, that everyone practising as. an engineer. wouldbe forced to register,' but the ; present measure. did riot,, propose' to do that. It allowed men practising a 4 engineers to register after a board hacl examined their qualifications..: The Bill would ..not' make', it c&iiipulsory ■ for local bodies to employ registered engineers; this :met an. objection .previously; raised by some loral bodies that their foremen were equal to any' engineers.; in. qualifications, but

that, they .could not register ris engin-

ccrs. The; Minister said Pome;, legislation ■ of. the' kind. was wanted,' as thero was ;,now"::nq; guarantee';to the . public tli'at men stating they' were engineers were qualified. ' •■:

-,'; Tlie Leader of the Opposition (Mr. T. M. Wilf ord) said there Wife no definition ■;.:. of ''engineer1' in the Bill. There would bea slur on the. man'who, .for 'some' ■'rdason.or..other, did not register.': The ; trouble [was that when a corporation of the .kind. suggested was created the pub-. ' Jio'thought!th'at ;■ the man who'Ohad . not. registered was not* qualified.' 7<Mr'.. ■\Vilford ('.'raised • the .question 'of. men -.■who went to the war, and whose stud-.-'ies had. been interrupted, and ..suggested . ...that .the' time for. registration should ' bVextended from twelve-months to; four. ,; /.or, five years ,tb meet cases V,,,0f '.that i'kirid. ;He proposed, to ;..move;: amend/>merits .in;' Committee:. dealing -with .'tlie. L pfjints He' had ..raised. He particularly ;-V>vished .to. have the .definition of "eb-' : \ gineeir" .made, clear, ' otherwise, hard-: ships might arisen ■■-. '\ .. ■ -■■ ( ■"., v' ■I - ilt. J v 'Edie (Cluthi)' eaid he •would remonstrate strongly against the Bill in ythe; Committee stago-.if it: was ■ to with the- practice of sur-- , .veyors, : -.of ;whom certain 1.-^engineering ■'■'■ qualifications were roa.uired. ■ ■:•- ■ ■■':.' . .. Mr. O. J. Hawken;(Egmont).Eaid:that: \ -care,,-should -be taken not, to ' give fur- '■ 'ther, privileges.and concessions.to those .. who' though qualified were;not thorough-' ... ly efficient. .'.;. - '•■-.-•■ '■.'1-".'.','..-■ : ' - PROTECTION TO THE P ÜBLld Mr. D.'.G. Sullivan (Avon) agreed .with the'/necessity;..for", protecting. :.the '^public from incompetent men, but ■ he .did not see "that the proposals • con-i , tamed in the Bill, were, going 'to afford .much protection.' To make< the ''■ mea-. .sure: worth while they, should do some- ,. thing in, the way of preventing iinregr istered persons 'from performing work ■which - high ' qualifications.' 'Ha; referred specifically to electrical wiring. : , The MinisterVinterjected .that-^ that ■■"',■ sort of work was hot covered in - tha Bill. . „but .would .be dealt with in another r/measure. -.'' ; ; ';:;.■■■> '-' /-,..- ■' .r.;-.-\ /-y'

Mr.- W." S. Glenn; (Bangitikei) said Ke trusted the registration, board -svouldi be . composed of ' qualified' engineers.' At. present there (--were -many local bodies Avho' employed ;■ unqualified men. . ; .Mr. J.. A! Macpherson (Oaniaru), said ...that unless- there'; was a, suitable board the conditions o£ registration might be ; made very harsh.:" The personnel of :.' the board was a mosK important' thing, ■ seeing that the Bill did not, in a sched- ; <u!e, say .what'-standard; of ..qualification / the .engineers, would! have to work" up

_ J Mr.. R. A. Wright* (Wellington Sub- , urbs) remarked that a difficulty in a Bill of ,the kind under notice was that corporations . like that proposed wanted :to ,keep- down1 the numbers entering .the .profession, so that the fees : might be high and .conserved to a few. Som» of the boards seemed to lay down standards ot Qualification which did riot apply to actual practice. Something more than H:ere . consideration of:; the personnel' of ■'. .the board was- required. .The board Enould; -be-'.confined,- to: a certain course of action, 'and ,hot -allowed to roam around all over the 'place by fixing any standards it'liked;;' • •■-.•" ,-> --;. . :; The;Hon:-:p:=Buddo'(Kaiapol)-Wreeci that something : should ./be done'- to' :." regulate ...properly, the -irieansYby. which rtgistration, was .to' be effected •.•■;•-• : /Mr. J^O'Brien (Westland) said tlint on its surfaceithe-Brll' appeared harmless, but he objected; to the power be..m o '; givento: the,boards. to block those - who mi>ht have'the qualifications and practical experience but* might not have sumcient, education." In effect, the Bill.| .blocked all who. hadnot gone through' ■■•- a university course, or who did not hold a diploma. The Bill required-to be con- / siderably. amended before it -was: placed 'on the-Statute Book. > —" >-: l , ■'.".■"-': '.; ■■■ AN "OPEN DOOR". POLICY., ' .The Hon. .C. 'J. Parr .(Minister, ofI'.dncation) said the Bill was long, overdue. -There was 'hardly another country ii; the Empire" which did npt provide fo'; theregistration,., of engineers/ Anyone who ;had served oh local 'bodies •knew...what- monej/., had been / wasted .where engineering work-had been incompetently, performed. In the> case of . harbour boards money h/id-,been literally thrown into, the sea through bad engineering. The Bill iallowed for an . "open,door" policy; because-a man who ha.l been practising for six. years could . register./ Parliament,, could , not stipu-late-just what -the- examination should be. as that hardly came within - its .function.- As a jnatter'..of fact, he did not thii^k the Bill went far enough.^ He i believed no /me 'should be allowed to ■ -practice, who:'was hot registered, but ■-.the Bill did not provide for that. The • measure would not- affect" unregistered engineers who were at'present in prac- : tice. ■■/: -.■'... .■ , ... , V Mr. S.f- G. Smith (Taranaki)' saw a danger in the Bili'in that it proposed that -the Minister should appoint -six . members on the board, three of whom "would be" recommended by the Society of ' Civil Engineers., Losses' of money frequently .resulted from accepting the '■■' vecommendatjons of men with "letters after-t'ririr names. The Bill would . iv- . flict hardship upon local body, engineers who hacl| had lengthy practical experience, but had - not the other qualifica;...'tions. .■ V .- -i : / -. . "'■. - -Sir. W. J. ■"Jordan (Manukau) saw" a danger in the 'clause providing - for the: cancellation of .registration', of men who had been convicted of an offence punishable by imprisonment. v That might be made to apply to men convicted of political offences; ■:::.';.:, ■•' .- _Th^.:Minister; "'lt-does-not say 'poli. tical'." ■; ■■.:, .■•■■■ -.- . ... ..-. Mr.. Jordan said' that, . although there was. provision for; appeal, men could bo struck off the register after bein<* convicted of an offence, punishable "ny im" pnsonment. There were men on the , Labour benches/who had been 6-> coi;- ---; victed. '-.' '■ V ■•■. ■ ' Mr t W. ; E.. Parry (Auckland Cenwal); "And; good men,, too." .- ..'. . 'Mr.X M'llyride (Napier) agreedj

with 3lr. Joi-daii's contention, but uiecepted the Bill; 'generally in so far ii& it tended to promote efficiency in the public inttrest. : INDEFINITE POINTS. Mr. H..K.: Holland- (Buller) said he welcomed any move in the direction of efficiency and public safety. There seemed to be a certain amount of indefiniteness about the measure, and ha would like the Minister to explain'how it aifected the engineers' in the Government service, and from what ranks it. was proposed to: draw the three mmhers ol the board who were to lie ap-' pointed by the Government." He hoped proper safeguards would be pro/irled in I connection with thedau3e.in the Eiil which proposed 'that' any one -who-'was convicted of an offence "'could be lie-re-gistered. Tjie Minister. oE Education had .stated that, unregistered engineers could; continue rto practise, and' that the Sill' would not'affect'them, but he submitted that... they . were debarred from practising, by clause 14; .'which provided for the infliction of r. fines upon1 men whoj. not being registered under the Act, mad« use"of initials :br'words implying rcis-' -ti'ation. '.•.;.- .. ' ' ' ■ '.- ■■!■:■

Mr. F. FV Hbckly (Rotoruaj thought the Bill was one in the right, direction. Local bodies to-day were not willing to employ the/class of W» they did 25 or 30 years ago'/ -The reason ifor'that was that, there were more .qualified men offering. The. :. engineering profession was .-asking for the Bill; but the speaker- would like to knoW. the: class of men who werp to constitute the .board of registration. ; He knew of men who .had done good work for. county councils, although they hadonot qualified as and. from, the..point of. view of justice and eqxiity he would like to see such men represented on the board. In reply, the. Minister: said 'he would be glad to go into the question of definition o£:: "engineer."' ,It>: had ..not been intended; to apply, the measure to marine . engineers, ■ but ;these men sometimes_ .came ashore- and entered into practice as engineers. ' . . v The Leader of the , Opposition asked why the Civil Engineers' Society'should Dick-the engineers for. the "board. ; ■■;.. Ihe Minister -replied 'that that " society had electrical engineers in its membership. .;The': question of extending the period for .registration could easily be considered. "In reply to a^query by Mr Holland the .-Minister said the Bill applied to Government engineers. 'The registration -board ■ should £c broadminded -enough to accept the reoistratipn.of men who, though" not possessing diplomas, - were well, qualified in other respects. He did not think a. man /should- be \ expelled because of a political offence; certainly he had never thought .of .that. '■, Any reasonable amendment,'.however;- could be considered, in Committee. ... ■ ■ ■ .-»■' -,- ' -'-1

The' Bill was -read; a second time.