A STEP AHEAD

Evening Post, Volume XCVIII, Issue 32, 7 August 1919, Page 3

A STEP AHEAD

COAL-MINING CONFERENCE

QUEST FOR A BASIS OF

DISCUSSION

SMALL COMMITTEE DECIDED UPON.

OWNERS' REPLY TO FEDERATION.

The conference between the coal mineowners and delegates from the Miners' Federation was resumed yesterday afternoon, Sir George Clifford presiding. Following on what transpired at the morning session, the Hon. E. W.'Alison, on behalf of the owners, mado the following statement:— "When we met this morning, the fedoration submitted certain proposals: That a Royal Commission be set up, and also certain replies and suggestions to the proposals of the coal mine-owners. "It was suggested that the federation demands should be discussed. Mr. O'Bourke stated that the points objected to would be withdra-vn'.for the time being, and that the federation was ready and willing to discuss the other proposals in the agreement, and that he hoped the coal mine-owners would consider these proposals and discuss tl;e remaining planks in the agreement. During the adjournment the federation proposals have been considered. "The coal mine-owners are unanimous. in the opinion 'that there is no justification for the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into thu industry, in view of the comprehensive report recently mad'e by the Board of Trade. While strongly holding the opinion that no fur ther inquiry is called for, if any such investigation should be made into all mat ters connected with the industry, including the federation's demands, and the effect which the granting of thest< de mands would .have npon the industry, includine the reduction of output, the increased cost of production and the effect upon the community generally, the association will appoint assessors if requested by Government to do so. _ "If an investigation under the conditions suggested is decided upon, an adjournment of the conference will be necessary until the report is received. "Failing that, if the federation is prepared definitely to withdraw the six principal claims for the period for which any agreement might be made, employers are -prepared to discuss the other clauses in the demands. The coal mine-owners, therefore, s*)bmit the. following proposals for consideration by the federation: THE EMPLOYERS' PROPOSALS. 1. That in view of the recent exhaustive report of the Board of Trade, the Coal Mine-owners' Association is of the opinion that there is no necessity for the appointment of a Royal Commission, as suggested by the Miners' Federation. 2. If, however, Government decides to institute further investigation, and the whole of the federation's demands are also inquired . into and reported upon, and if it is agreed that, pending the report, the existing industrial agreements and awards should remain in force, the association will be prepared to appoint an assessor or assessors to represent it. 3. Should the above proposals be agreed to it will be necessary to ad-, journ the conference until the report .is received, as..- that report may involve such changes as will have an important beating on rates of,pay and working conditions in the 'mines. 4. If, however, no investigation as suggested above is decided upon, the employers are prepared to discuss the remaining federation demands if the six principal demands, to which exception is taken by the coal mineowners, are definitely and finally withdrawn until the expiration of the term of any agreement which may be entered into. . PROPOSALS SAID TO BE "SHADOWY " Mr. O'Rourke (Federation President) pointed out that the points objected bo by the coal-o-ivuers had been held over, not withdrawn, for the time being. He again pointed out that the federation delegates had no power to withdraw the points. Apparently, the coal-owners were endeavouring for some reason or other to- bring about a crisis in the coal industry, and they had not given the help to the men to settle the question that they should. Now a shadowy ) roposal was put before the federation cieiegates, perhaps with the intension of causing disruption; it could oniy be that that was what the coal-owners wanted. Was it that the coal-owners were .ifraid to submit their books for inspection iiivd let the public know the' true position? Commenting on ■ the proposals of the owners', Mr. O'Rourke again characterised them as "shadowy," and suggested 1 that perhaps, so far as his side of the table was concerned, he did uut know what the position was or what the opinion was. Perhaps an adjournment for five minutes would be the best. So far as he was concerned, he was yrepared, if the owners would .submit proposals of what they were prepared to do for the men, to lay them bofore the rank and file of the federation. Mr. O'-Brien :We have all made up our minds. Mr. Arbuckle :We have iad enousrk of adjournments; we do not want any more. We will adjourn homo. "THE TIME BEING." Mr. T. 0. Bishop (Acting-Under-Sec-retary of the Mines Department) wanted to know how long the federation was prepared to hold over the points referred to by the employers. That was the important point. They wanted to know what "the time being" meant. Mr. O'Rourke said that the delegates had no power to alber the mandate which had come from the unions. However, in order to avoid the deadlock they were prepared that the contentious clauses should be held over untij the other clauses had been discussed. They could then see what sort of an agreement it would have been possible to reach. After that they could go back to the unions and say: "This is the best we can do for you." It was for the rank and file to say whether it was satisfactory or not. The rank and file might say "Yes," oi it might say'"No." Ho could not say what the result might be. He thought he had made the position perfectly clear that morning. CANNOT WAIT TOO LONG. (Mr. J. Roberts stated that the only reliable statement of figures from the federation point of view could only be placed before tho public by the appointment'.of the commission'asked for by the federation. The owners evidently asked that on the supposition that the Government would appoint a commission itself. The agreement should be held over until after that. It would take from six to nine months before a commission's report on the coal indiißtrj ' could be ready, and it was impossible to wait for a-n agreement for that time. In order that the conference should not break up, the federation had asked tho owners to discuss the remaining points outside those objected to by^t-he owners, but all they had got in reply was the statement contained in the "shadowy" proposals of the owners this afternoon. Tint jreply waj no good to tho fedora-

tion, and it appeared that further discussion on the proposals was of little use. They contained nothing to assist in adjusting the dispute, which the federation desired. They contained nothing worthy of consideration, and might merely contain something in the nature of an adjustment of the accuracy of a. set of figures; not a settlement of the great coal question which so vitally affected the people of this country. WITHDRAWAL INSISTED UPON. Mr. Alison attacked Mr. Boberts for saying that the latest proposals contained nothing worthy of consideration. He commented upon the fact that the federation had not brought forward any figures to disprove the undeniable figures which the owners had submitted to the conference. The owners could not agree to such an extortionate demand upon the public which an increase of 15s per ton in the price of coal would entail. Mr. O'Eourke had agreed to hold over the principal clauses. '"We say, 'You withdraw those six impossible charges— those drastic, far-reaching clauses—then we will discuss your other demands, and endeavour to come to an agreement.' What was the position of the federation? Simply that if the demands were not agreed to no agreement could be entered into. The delegates said that they would have to consult the rank and' file." Mr. Arbuckle : Would you have the whole of the unions here? A QUESTION OF AUTHORITY. Mr. Alison : No. But surely if you are appointed as delegates you have the power to enter into an agreement, without referring that agreement to your unions* You are not going to draw us into the position of making an agreement, and then coming upon us with the other demands-. You are not going to throw on us the responsibility of refusing to discuss all the other clauses of the agreement outside those which we find it impossible to grant. Mr. O'Eourke had made a wrong statement, when he said the--owners were endeavouring to bring about a coal crisis. He should not have said that. Those who brought about a coal crisis were going! to' do the country the greatest injury possible. There was a serious shortage of coal in New Zealand, and the responsibility was on either side to secure a supply of coal. Mr.. O'Eourke : Improve tho conditions of the mines. Mr. Alison said that the conditions at the mines were not so bad as they were represented. The men were well paid. Mo-. Arbuckle : Are they satisfied ? Mr. Alison : Will they ever be satisfiod? The miners' demands are continuously, before, us. The owners had already had a complete investigation of the in-dusu-y, and had nothing to fear.. The only difficulty was that the return from capital. wa<3 not sufficient. Mr. Arbuckle : Turn the mines over to the State Mr. Alison : You are' always anxious to hand them to the State. There must be a reason for it. The federation suggested that the owners were making high profits, and that the management was inefficient. Very well, there would have to bo a.n investigation on both sides. One side only oould not secure an inquiry. MINERS WANT A FULL INQUIRY. Mr. Roberts :■ We asked for a full inquiry, and we are prepared to agree to it. We don't want this misrepresentation. If the misrepresentation is continued we will have another bea.r garden. There was camouflage on Mr. Alison's part.•• Mr. Alison said that there was no camouflage. He had not bee.n making personal allusions. The Chairman : Please say nothing more about Mr. Roberts. Mv. Alison :. Very, well, sir. When they had an investigation they wanted an inquiry into the whole of the working conditions, as well as into the effect of the miners' demands. That is not wanted by the federation. Mr. Roberts : This is more misrepresentation. The proposal is acceptable. Our position is quite clear. Mr. Arbuckle :We will show you what we will accept. Mr. Alison : Mr. Roberts says "yes" and Mr. Arbuckle says "no." "A DELIBERATE LIE." Mr. Arbuckle : That is a statement which I claim to be a deliberate lie. The Chairman called on Mr. Arbuckle to withdraw. Mr. Arbuckle: I have reached the stage in this conference when I am not going to'sit here any longer and listen to the stuff which is being given by Mr. Alison. The Chairman insisted on the withdrawal of the words, "deliberate lie" as being unparliamentary. „ Mr. Arbuckle agreed to withdraw, remarking that he spoke in a moment of heat, but asked the Chairman to give his ruling as»to whether he (Mr. Arbuckle) had made the statement attributed to him by Mr. Alison. . The Chairman intimated that he failed at the moment to remember what Mr. Alison had said, and was at a loss. Mr. Arbuckle said that if the Chairman' was not taking notice of what Mr. Alison said, and he (Mr. Arbuckle) was not going to get any protection from the chair, he wasl hot inclined to sit at the conference any longer. The Chairman : That is at your own option, sir. Mr. O'Brien : What is the use of our listening to Mr. Alison, Mr. Chairman, if you are not listening to him. Mr. Roberts pointed out that what Mr. Arbuckle had said was, "We'll show you what we will agree to," and not that they would not agree to; anything. A PEOPOSAL REITERATED. Sir George Clifford again expressed his desire for a definite result to accrue from the conference, and reiterated his previons request for tho appointment of a tribunal to investigate the whole matter, with, assessors representing each body. Mi1. Roberts said that the question under consideration was a national one, and he regretted that the personal element had been introduced. Referring to the remarks by Mr. Alison, he said that it would be impossible for the delegates to come to any agreement without consulting tho rank and file. In the first place, he had not the power. In tho second place, it would be unconstitutional. In the third place, he would never agree to bind a man to work under conditions which that man had not had an opportunity of approving. The federation had never objected to the Royal Commission reporting on the miners' demands. The latter must be discussed by the Commission, if the report was to be a full one. The federation did not intend to refute figures when it had no basis upon which to work. That was why they asked for a Royal Commission. He was one of those prepared to admit that there might be a decrease in the output per man, but he would not agree that under the day wage system there would be any reduction. K tho wages were made good and the conditions improved, workers would flock to tho mines, and thus increase the output of coal. Men were leaving the mines now because the conditions were not good. Regarding the withdrawal of tho five points, the federation had given way, but if they gave away any more they felt that the owners would endeavour to capture another ti'ench. (Cries of " No.") They realised the importance of the question. It could not be said that they had been met in an amicable spirit. He would be.one to do anything at all to bridge over tho'dispute. He was with Mr. O'Rpurke in that. Mr. Alieon's spsech was once again & Haneard speech. Ho would do a great deal

to get over the difficulty, but he could not agree with the suggestion for an investigation which woiild take months. The men at the mines were dissatisfied now. The miners were only making demands to secure life, and 'the industry that could not make life secure was not worth much to the worker. Referring to the increased cost of living, he said he knew thoroughly well that the miners did not have the same standard of living now as they had a. few years ago. Mr. Alison.: Nonsense. " THAT PIECE OF PAPER." Mr. Roberts said they had asked for the discussion of a new agreement. If the reply was " that piece of paper" put forward that afternoon, then the conference might as well come to an end. He saw nothing else but to refer the matter to the unions, as Mr. Alison had suggested, and. he was afraid he knew what the answer would be. Ho was not saying that as a. threat. Personally, he .would like to accept the chairman's suggestion, but he was afraid it could not be done. They pressed for a Royal Commission, but at the same time they wanted a settlement of the present trouble at the conference then in session. SMALL COMMITTEE PROPOSED. Mr. T. S. Weston said that bis side of the table was anxious that the right thing should happen. It had been suggested that his side of the table had something to conceal, and on behalf of i the receivers of the Paparoa Company he could say that they had no objection to the Miners' Federation seeing the books of the company, or answering any questions which the federation "might ask. The six highiy-debatable points, which he understood had been withdrawn, were much the same as had caused the recent trouble in Broken Hill, and speaking personally ho 'could not, as a member of the Coal-owners' Conference, agree to their acceptance, which would be disastrous to the Dominion and, he thought, the Empire. Mr. Weston went on to suggest the appointment of a small committee, say three members from each side, to inquire into tho real value of the federation's agreement to " hold over " for the time being the six points .objected to by tho coal-owners. Increased' production, Mr. Weston went on to say, was necessary in the mines and elsewhere for the salvation of civilisation. Surely they were reasonable men and could discuss the proposals of the owners as a last resource. Then if they could not come to an agreement each of them would go away satisfied that they had done their best to arrive at a settlel ment of the trouble but had failed. Mr. Weston concluded -with a plea _ for industrial rest and industrial certainty in New Zealand. Mr. Roberts said that if they were to have industrial peace and certainty in New Zealand such: divisions as had existed during the conference would have to cease. Mr. A. Pipe (Waihi) asked how industrial peace and certainty could be obtained when the Government Statistician had shown that the cost of living had risen 50 per cent, and the miners had onlv got 30 per cent. Mr. W. A. Flavell (Westport Com-. pany) agreed with Mr. Weston's suggestion, at the sa'ne time pointing out that if the miners' demands were acceded to the coal industry could hardly live. The conference should not be allowed to cease without every possible means being taken to endeavour to compose the differences existing between the parties to the conference. ■ ANOTHER ADJOURNMENT. Mr. O'Rourke said the federation did. not want to do anything to precipitate a crisis, but he failed to see exactly the width and.breadth of the motion proposed by Mr. Weston. He suggested an adjournment, for. ten minutes to enable each side to'" examine more closely Mr. Weston's proposals. Mr. Arbnclde expressed' his_ desire to say something: before any adjournment was taken. He criticised the unwieMiness of the conference, and read a letter from the secretary of tho Miners' Federation at Millerton in regard to men lea%'inc! their employment there owing, as he inferred, to bad conditions, or "crook places" in ths mines. So far as the abolition of the contract system was concerned, the conference was just where it hart started, but in regard to the hours of work claimed, the federation was only asking for what a Royal Commission had just granted to the miners in England. There it had been decided that the miners' conditions were such as to warrant giving them one hour's work less at present and two less at a later date. Surely, if in England it had been possible to grant these demands made by the men; why. surely to God the coal owners of New Zealand could at least have discussed them with the men. Mr. Alison raised a point of order. He said that the owners had definitely stated that they would not discuss the six proposals. "If Mr. Arbuckle did so there must be a right to reply. Sir George Clifford said that the question of an adjournment should be disposed of first. Mi\ Arbucklo said he wanted to make aii explanation. Sir George Clifford insisted upon his ruling, whereupon Mr. Arbuckle . asked whether the gag was to be applied on every occasion. An adjournment for ten mitiutes was decided upon, and it was explained that the proposed committee would consider whether or not some 'scheme conld not be formulated upon which the conference could proceed. SMALL COMMITTEE AGREED TO. On resuming at 5.30 o'clock, Mr. Roberts stated that the federation delegates were prepared to agree to a committee of three from each side, their delegates to be Messrs. O'Rourke, Arbuckle, and Roberts. Mr. Weston said he looked upon the committee as a preliminary one. He thought that a committee of three from either side should bo appointed, and perhaps a bigger committee should be set up later. Mr. Roberts said that such a proposal was agreeable to his side. Mr. Alison said it had been suggested that there should be a committee of seven from both sides, which committed could probably come to a complete agreement, which could later be submitted to the conference. Mr. Roberts said that th-it phase had not been considered by the federation, but could be one of those matters to be discussed by the small committee. Sir George Clifford asked what the committee would be, exactly. Mr. Pryor: A committee to arrive at a basis for future discussion. Voices: Hear, hear The committee of six was agreed upon by tho conference, both sides agreeing to the inclusion of Mr. Bishop as representing the Government. Sir George Clifford stated, that he would have to leave by the South boat that night, and he nominated Mr. W. Reese (Christchurch) as deputy-chairman. The proposal was acceptable to both, sides, who agreed unanimously to place on record an appreciation of Sir George Clifford's impartial services as chairman. It was his ability and tact, 'stated Mr. Roberts, which' on many occasions made it possible for the conference to proceed. The committee was to meet this morn'ing- _________