A STATE OFFICIAL. LAND AND INCOME TAX DEPARTMENT.

Evening Post, Volume LXXVIII, Issue 135, 4 December 1909, Page 9

A STATE OFFICIAL. LAND AND INCOME TAX DEPARTMENT.

RECENT ALLEGATIONS. A LIVELY DISCUSSION. A long discussion, extending over four hours, took piace in the House of Representatives last night, when Mr. R. A. Wright moved that the item on the Estimates, "£4OO, salary Commissioner of Taxes," should be reduced by £5 as an indication that the House required some definite information regarding the recent enquiry concerning tho head of the department. Messrs. Buick and Herdman supported the amendment. The latter said that the House was entitled to the information. He did not wish to have the business of .private people disclosed. Sir Joseph Ward : I rather doubt it. Mr. Herdman : Then you can take it from me that you are wrong. Sir Joseph : Then why do you ask for it? Mr. Herdman replied that he was getting rather suspicious owing to this attitude. He haa been sent to Parliament 'by people who were entitled to demand information. Mr. Glover : You will never get a better man to fill the position. Mr. Herdman: "I am coming to that ipoint." He added that the judges had complimented Mr. Heyes on his ad ministrative ability. Under the circumstances it was wrong that he should have to remain under a cloud. Sir Joseph Ward, said he knew how far he could go and how far he could not go. Mr. R. B. Ross declared that the Opposition was anxious to get behind the affairs of private individuals. Mr. Massey requested the Chairman to order Mr. Ross to withdraw this statement. Mr. Roes was compelled to do so, and Mr. Herdman also nad to withdraw a remai'k which fell from him. Continuing, Mr. Ross deplored the fact that the trouble in connection with the Tax Department was dragged on to the floor of the House every day. Why should not the papers in connection with every other enquiry be laid on the table? -' Mr. W. C. Buchanan also stated that no information Tiad been given. Sir Joseph Word : That is absolutely contrary to fact. Mr. Buchanan said tho statement made by' the Prime Minister was of a fragmentary and imperfect character. Sir Joseph repeated previous statements that he co-aid not give the information asked for without disclosing the 2ames of private individuals. Mr Herdman asked what was hidden. Sir Joseph : Do you want me to tell you? Mr. Herdman : Yes. Sir Joseph: Well I am not 'going to do so. I am not going to be put m a position — a position which would make me appear absolutely dishonest. Until the cases were settled, -the men involved had a right to eocrecy. The Government was not involved. When two judges were appointed to enquire, it was an indication that impartiality would be observed. He had grave doubts that some .people asking for information did not desire to enquire into peoole's private affairs. • Mr. Massey : You should not say that. Sir Joseph : I am 'not prying into anyone's private affairs. It had to be remembered thit in the principal charge brought against the officer the ' commission of enquiry had found in favpu.r of the officer. Mr. Massey : Then why not lay that portion of the report before Parliament? ■ Sir Joseph Ward : Because I have alyeady told you I cannot do so. The suggestion was one of the most indecent things he had ever* heard of. It was impossible for him to do what was asked. A WAY OUT. Sir. Massey : There is a way out. Sir Joseph Ward : There is no way out. The lion, member for Wellington South has moved a resolution. Let the House carry it and take the responsibility. Mr. Massey took the opportunity of denying that members on the Opposition eide of the House had the slightest desire to go prying into the private business of any man who had dealings with the Land and Income Tax Department. As a matter of fact, he had the very friendliest feelings towards Mr. Heyes. Personally, he had no fault to find- with him, but he did not think Sir Joseph Ward realised how serious the position was. Sir Joseph : Oh, don't I ? Mr. Massey said the irregularities alleged .were co serious that not a magistrate or a judge had been appointed, but two judges had. Rumours were drifting round and accumulating like a enowball. The most serious enquiry that had taken pl=ice in recent times was the voucher enquiry, and all tho papers and documents in connection with that matter were laid before Parliament. Sir Joseph Ward : Quite right, too. AN ALLEGATION. Mr. Massey : Well, if it was quite right then it is quite right now. It had even been said that men in high places were implicated. (Hear, hear). "'I will not go further," he added, "and I am not going to mention the names of these people. I am very sorry to havo to say this." Sir Joseph Ward : What do you mean? Mr. Massey : I will say people connected with the Legislature. Sir Joseph : With the Government? Mr. Massey : With the Legislature. Members : Name then. Mr. Massey repeated that he meant that people connected with the Legislature were concerned in the enquiry. The hon. gentleman- would not supply him (Mr. Massey) with information, and he (Mr. Massey) would not supply the Prime Minister with information. Mr. Ross raised tho point of order that Mr. Massey was reflecting on mem^ bers of the Legislature. Mr. Witty : Why does he not name them? Mr. R'oss : Let him name them. The chairman (Mr. Wilford) said that if Mr. Massey had referred to the House he was out of order ; if to the other branch of the Legislature he knew perfectly veil that he had no power to do so. Mr. Massey : I am not reflecting on the Legislature in the very slightest. I am eimply referring to the rumours that are in circulation in Wellington. I know nothing about them. Mr. Lawry : Why did you refer to it? Mr. Massey: As a reason, thab the matter should be cleared up. I think it should be cleared up. The report of tho judges, without the names of the parties referred to should bo laid before Parliament. I don't know whether that is the proper course to adopt, but it is suggested that court cases are pending. I do not know whether that is so. If ihe Prime Minister will tell the House that court cases are pending I will advise Mr. Wright to withdraw his amendment. We do not propose to interfere with any cases sub judice. Mr. Massey went on to say that one of his party had suggested that he (Mr. Massey) or some other responsible Opposition member should be shown the report of the judges.

The Prime Minister : Why should not members on our side see it? DUTY DONE. Sir Joseph Ward said that from the very start he had done his duty, and he certainly did not consider it part of his duty to come on to the floor of ihe House and make a reflection on the t Legislature, or upon any persons connected with the department or the dispute. He had done his duty, and would continue to do it to the end. He was not going to disclose any information about the private business of taxpayers in this country. It would be grossly improper for him to make public the private affairs of those having business transactions with the department. The Government had never interfered in any disputes. Mr. Massey : This is not a dispute. Sir Joseph Ward said that it was impossible to make this disclosure, because the judges had stated that it was essentia' that it should be taken in conjunction with the report itself. Where, he asked, would the safety of the people be if their private business was made public in this way? He did not intend to place the papers before Parliament, but he intended to do hisduty. The decision of the House would have to be obeyed, but he repeated that he would not lay the report on the table. Some one else might do it, but he would not. Mr. Herdman wanted to know when the Prime Minister would give the House the information they asked for. The Prime Minister insisted that he would not disclose the private business >of taxpayers. Mr. Herdman urged that the' Prime Minister could give sufficient information without disclosing private details. He asked members to believe that the Opposition were looking at this matter from a national, and not from a party point of view, and he contended that they had a right to be afforded more information than had yet been given. Why was the Government dumb on this subject? he asked. The head of the department had been given three months' holiday, although the report spoke highly of his qualification, and, in justice to the head of* the department, he urged that full particulars should be given. ANOTHER MINISTER SPEAKS. The Hon. G. Fowlds wanted to know why members would not accept the statement that, the report of the Judges was still under consideration. A.part altogether from the serious nature of the charges, it must be remembered that this was an enquiry into a secret department, and it was a necessity that the enquiry should be dealt with impartially and with due regard to secrecy. Mr. \V. C. Buchanan said he knew nothing -of the rumour that a member of the Legislature was involved in the matter, but he thought the Leader of the Opposition should be given credit for trying to uphold the honour of the House. Mr. J. Allen said the question might be one of administration, but they ought to settle the question of whether the person appointed to carry out the duties of this high office was fitted for j the position. What was wanted was : a general statement as to the general i nature of the charges that had been proved to be substantiated, or partially substantiated. Otherwise they would go away without knowing anything about what was going on. The Government ought to disclose more than had yet, been disclosed. The course taken was one way of shelving enquiry. Sir Joseph Ward : Nothing of the sort. Mr. J. Allen : At any rate, it appears to be very much like it. Mr. G. Laurenson remarked that the department under review was concerned in raising about three-quarters of a million a year from the wealthiest class m the community, and ifc ws.s the interest of that class to blacken the character of the person chiefly concerned. He wanted to hear testimony to the way in which the head of that department bad carried out his duties, and he added that the fact of the Government taking full measures to enquire into the working of that department had* been used as a weapon against the Government and the head of the Government, although the two Judges had reported that there was nothing to say against the .character or method or ability of the head of that department. IN'OT VINDICTIVE. Mr. Buchanan distinctly denied that he had desired to blacken the head of the department. Mr. Dive expressed the hope that investigations would be made into the amounts lent and into the value of the securities. "You set up a Commission and I will go into it," he added. "There are tranFactions which will not bear the light of day." Sir Joseph Ward : "The department so far has lent, about nine millions. Has it made any losses so feir? Mr Dive : That might be so, but we might be faced with very severe losses in the future. The Prime Minister urged that if Mr. Dive had any facts in his possession that ought to be made public he should disclose them. The department had never been carried on on the lines of political favouritism, and it was politically discreditable to make such a suggestion. Until information was given it could not be investigated. In another case he had asked for information , on a, charge mentioned by a member. He had not received that information, and in consequence, he doubted its accuracy Mr. Dive challenged the Premier to give full details of a case to which he haa previously referred. A CHALLENGE. Sir Joseph Ward wanted to know why tho member had not given the particulars of a charge which he had made some time ago, and the details of which he had promised to give. "Walk round here and give them to me now," said the Premier. Mr. Mander put in a good word for Mr. Heyes. He had known him for 20 years, and said he had never heard anything against His character. He thought the true position of affairs should be disclosed as soon as possible. Mr. G. Witty urged that during the recent depression Mr. Heyes had done yeoman service to the clients of the department. Why, he asked, should they keop on condemning him without having the full evidence before them? Besides, it must be remembered that Mr. Heyes did not lend the money ; it was lent by the board. Mr. Fisher said that if the Government were prepared to sit under the aspersions- and lumours that were flying round, let them. The Opposition recognised that this was a secret department of State. If the Government were compelled to give no information he sympathised with them. If Mr. Heyes was prepared to sit down for three months under the imputation resting on him, and not move to have the report made public, that was his look out. THAT ALLEGATION. The Prime Minister said that he had asked Mr. MasEey if he had been referring to any member of the Government when he referred to prominent members of the Legislature being concerned. Mr. Massey had not said no, but said that he referred to people accupying high places in the Legislature. Mr. Fisher had said the same thing. He (Sir Joseph) wished to say that no member of the Ministry was in any way concerned in this enquiry. Everyone knew how shockingly rumours were twisted, and he gave this denial on be- ;

half of his colleagues and himself. If Mr. Heyes himself were to ask for the judges' report to be tabled he (Sir Joseph) would not do it at present. Mr. Hej^es stated that he had acted in a straightforward and honourable manner, and had done so all along. It was premature for him (Sir Joseph) to step in. Mr. Wright made a definite statement on the charge he had brought forward. He said that Mr. Heyes bought a property in Wellington, the Government valuation of which was £1540. In the ordinary course of things Mr. Heyes would havo been entitled to a loan o£ £945 on it, but he wanted £1240. He got it. And how? He got Mr. Dugdale, the inspecting valuer of the Valuation Department, to value it. It was valued at £2200" and the department advanced £1240 on it. Was this true or not? Further, none of this money had been paid off. Member after m-ember rose and declared that Mr. ""Wright evidently had no knowledge of such transactions. They pointed, out that Government valuations for taxation purposes were not so reliable a basis as the value in the open market. WITHOUT FOUNDATION. The Prime Minister said that the statement that the judges' report referred to this matter was without foundation. He had "heard rumours of the same kind. His enquiries show.cd that there had never been a valuation made by Mr. Dugdale of £2240 on that property. Mr. Wright : £2200. The Prime Minister : On £2200. That statement is also wrong. The certificate was signed by the former Valuer-General. Mr. George Witty said it was quite possible that a piece of land or a house might increase in value in six months. Betore the Govermnent or any private lending • firm 'advanced money an independent valuation was made. He deplored the fact that any officer of the department sworn to secrecy should give information, or that Mr. Wright should use it. Mr. Macdonald expressed similar views. Mr. Wright said he had got the information in a perfectly honourable way. He had not sought it; practically every one in Wellington was aware of the statement. About 2 o'clock a division was taken on Mr. Wright's amendment to reduce the item by £5. — The amendment was lost by 40 votes to 21. Mr. -Massey took the opportunity of denying any inference that his party had been guilty of baiting Mr. Heyes. He sincerely hoped Mr. Heyes was in the right, and sympathised with him in his trouble. The only way, however, that confidence in tho department could be maintained was to let daylight into the matter, and see that the wrongdoers were punished. Sir Joseph Ward said it was to him extraordinary that a man should have been attacked — for he had been undoubte3y attacked — that a vote should be taken, and that members should then say they had no desire to injure that official. He reminded members that enquiries and investigations were still being carried out, and knowing that it would be seen that the statements made would tend in the direction of discrediting Mr. Heyes. Mr. Fisher said no member of the House had any desire to reflect on Mr. Heyes. / Mr. J. Colvin said the debate did not reflect credit on the House. Most of tho statements made were mere rumours.